Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
OT Pol: Some Meditations Before You Vote
This campaign season has been marked with a high degree of partisanship and rancor in the discourse leading up to Tuesday's presidential election. Both sides, armed with focus groups and experts, have crafted messages gilded with oversimplifications and spurious "facts." Logic, common sense and truth scatter like dust before the powerful and well-financed marketing machines roaring across the landscape. My advice? Take time to reflect on what is truly important, and let your own intelligence and compassion guide your decisions. Here's some food for thought before you vote: • Democrat, Republican, Green, Independent, Libertarian, left, right, center, liberal, moderate, conservative, rich, poor, gay, straight, black, white, brown, male, female, pro-life, pro-choice — we're a mixed bag, but we're all Americans. • No individual, party or ideology has cornered the market on truth or God's blessing. • Dying soldiers in all countries call for their mothers with their last breath. • Any child killed by war, poverty, abuse or neglect is one too many. • Fear is our worst enemy. Those who would scare us are not our friends. • 9/11 was a tragic event. But everything did not change. The sad fact is, too much has remained the same, or gotten worse. • Killing innocents in any war dishonors those who died on 9/11. • Those most distant from a conflict are always the ones shouting loudest for war. • War is almost always a tragic detour from the more difficult road of peace. • Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional right to free speech is not a patriot. In a true democracy, all points of view are valued and heard. • Love is the core value of the Islamic, Christian and Jewish faiths. Only love and understanding can bring the peace and security all good people of the world desire. Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted. [written by Stuart S. Light in the LA Times, Oct 30, 2004] Feel free to comment, but as always, without using words like liberal, left, right, or wing. mahalo, jo4hn |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"jo4hn" wrote in message
nk.net... • Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional right to free speech is not a patriot. That used to be (and may still be) a favorite tactic of the Kremlin. And, I just heard a news story about how Jordanians can get hauled before a "tribunal" for opening their mouths and letting the wrong words come out. If they're lucky, that all they get, but usually, they're not that lucky and end up doing jail time. It's interesting how some Americans like to use the word "treason" anytime someone expresses a view that doesn't agree with whomever happens to have the biggest mouth at the moment, especially if our soldiers are overseas at the time. I've always wanted to speak to a handful of psychologists to understand this mentality. Is it a desperate way of seeking false security? |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
These are some mighty fine sentiments and worthy of meditation but it needs
some editing..... • Democrat, Republican, Green, Independent, Libertarian, left, right, center, liberal, moderate, conservative, rich, poor, gay, straight, black, white, brown, male, female, pro-life, pro-choice — we're a mixed bag, but we're all Americans with the freedoms to form opinions. This doesn't necessarily mean all opinions are valid. • No individual, party or ideology has cornered the market on truth or God's blessing but all have a reason for their beliefs. • Dying soldiers in all countries die for a reason. • Any child killed by war, poverty, abuse or neglect is one too many. Every chance this may happen is one chance to many. • Fear is our worst enemy. Those who would scare us are not our friends. It must not cripple us. • 9/11 was a tragic event. Some things changed. Some things remained the same Some grew worse. Some grew better. • Killing innocents in any war right or wrong is unavoidable. • Those most distant from a conflict are the ones in the best position to see clearly. • War doesn't always lead to peace. Peace rarely comes without it. • Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional right to free speech is exercising their right for the same. In a true democracy, all points of view are heard. Not all are unilaterally valued. • Love is the core value of man. Various faiths and beliefs render it impossible for all men to love each other. Only intolerance for the intolerable can allow for tolerance for the tolerable. Defining that which is equally intolerable by all men and taking measures to limit it is the only way we can establish the closest thing to true peace we will ever know here on this earth. .. Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
snip valid opinions
Every vote counts, (and every vote should be counted.) Only if the electoral college is eliminated. After all, it is the 21st century where it's damn near impossible not to be able to get somewhere to vote. The EC is way out dated. Gary |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
... In article , otforme says... Three things bother me a great deal. First, the rancor, no matter which side it emanates from or is pointed at. Next, the belief that God is guiding anyone's hand in this election. Third, the number of people on both sides of the questions being asked who believe the over-simplified answers spouted in speeches and sound bites are the only answers, and the complete answers. Charlie, I think the rancor is easily explained. The left is still convinced that Bush stole the 2000 election and they think he's trying to curtail freedom in the name of fighting terror. The right is convinced that Bush is the only hope for support of their beliefs, especially God, flag, and motherhood. Both of the above statements are oversimplifications, they don't include those who "vote their pocketbook." But those types don't tend to be overly rancorous. But it does appear that there are quite a few voters who see this election as a pivotal point in the future of the country. That tends to up the rancor level. And the only solution to the "sound bites", true or false, is to prohibit any political ads on TV or radio. We did it for liquor and tobacco and they were no more dangerous :-). Actually very well put, Larry. I don't think censoring political speech is the right way to go but I get your drift. I think the politicians that go over the top are shown up as phonies eventually, even if it doesn't show up until they are in office. dwhite |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"GeeDubb" wrote in message
... snip valid opinions Every vote counts, (and every vote should be counted.) Only if the electoral college is eliminated. After all, it is the 21st century where it's damn near impossible not to be able to get somewhere to vote. The EC is way out dated. That's not what the EC is for. The EC prevents politicians from pandering to the 6 or so major population centers where most Americans live, and ignoring the the rest of the country. I guess I should say "disenfranchising" instead of "ignoring" since this is the catchword of the day. dwhite |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"GeeDubb" wrote in message snip valid opinions Every vote counts, (and every vote should be counted.) Only if the electoral college is eliminated. After all, it is the 21st century where it's damn near impossible not to be able to get somewhere to vote. The EC is way out dated. ?? Damn! ... is the grasp of US constitutional history that obviously lacking since they stopped teaching citizenship in schools? It is no wonder the country is in the state it's in. The US specifically has a republican form of government, not a democracy, and the electoral college was one of those institutions, as well as the popular election of representatives who in turn make the laws, specifically instituted to discourage rule by majority. Quoting one of the founding fathers, and the biggest proponent of the EC, in the Federalist Papers: "...a well-constructed Union" must, above all else, "break and control the violence of faction," especially "the superior force of an . . . overbearing majority." In any democracy, a majority's power threatens minorities. It threatens their rights, their property, and sometimes their lives." Just ask any black/japanese American whether they recognize what the "tyranny of the majority" in a democracy can do. It appears that it's high time they start teaching civics, constitutional history, and citizenship in the schools again! -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/04/04 |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Swingman wrote:
"GeeDubb" wrote in message snip valid opinions Every vote counts, (and every vote should be counted.) Only if the electoral college is eliminated. After all, it is the 21st century where it's damn near impossible not to be able to get somewhere to vote. The EC is way out dated. ?? Damn! ... is the grasp of US constitutional history that obviously lacking since they stopped teaching citizenship in schools? It is no wonder the country is in the state it's in. The US specifically has a republican form of government, not a democracy, and the electoral college was one of those institutions, as well as the popular election of representatives who in turn make the laws, specifically instituted to discourage rule by majority. Quoting one of the founding fathers, and the biggest proponent of the EC, in the Federalist Papers: "...a well-constructed Union" must, above all else, "break and control the violence of faction," especially "the superior force of an . . . overbearing majority." In any democracy, a majority's power threatens minorities. It threatens their rights, their property, and sometimes their lives." Just ask any black/japanese American whether they recognize what the "tyranny of the majority" in a democracy can do. It appears that it's high time they start teaching civics, constitutional history, and citizenship in the schools again! Civics lesson accepted. I keep forgetting this is supposed to be a Republic. It's been a while since I've had any history anything and the US media as well as the politicians cram democracy down our throat. I'm not whining about the last election. I voted for Bush. Still the fact remains that I believe the EC needs to be eliminated. The majority of the US populous lives outside of the six major metro areas so I think your reasoning may be a little flawed (IMO) but valid in the fact that the rest of the populous wouldn't be subjected to the political banter going on currently (maybe that would be a good thing???). When a state is split 50.5 to 49.5 (or somewhat close) I have a real problem with giving all electoral votes to one candidate. It's not representative of what the People are voting (though statistically pretty close). If we insist on keeping the EC I think Colorado may have the right idea with splitting the EC vote (voter approval of course and barring any constitutional back lash). I see it as being more representative of the popular vote. This opinion is just that, an opinion. Gary |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:36:16 -0700, GeeDubb wrote:
Still the fact remains that I believe the EC needs to be eliminated. The majority of the US populous lives outside of the six major metro areas so I think your reasoning may be a little flawed (IMO) but valid in the fact that the rest of the populous wouldn't be subjected to the political banter going on currently (maybe that would be a good thing???). When a state is split 50.5 to 49.5 (or somewhat close) I have a real problem with giving all electoral votes to one candidate. It's not representative of what the People are voting (though statistically pretty close). If this was a true democracy, we'd also have to eliminate the senate as it represents the states as entities rather than an equal representation by population. The makeup of the bicameral legislature and the same representation in the electoral college are the reason the smaller states even went along with the current union - so they wouldn't be run completely over by the more populous states. -Doug -- "It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions." --Thomas Jefferson |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Swingman writes:
Quoting one of the founding fathers, and the biggest proponent of the EC, in the Federalist Papers: "...a well-constructed Union" must, above all else, "break and control the violence of faction," especially "the superior force of an . . . overbearing majority." In any democracy, a majority's power threatens minorities. It threatens their rights, their property, and sometimes their lives." Just ask any black/japanese American whether they recognize what the "tyranny of the majority" in a democracy can do. It appears that it's high time they start teaching civics, constitutional history, and citizenship in the schools again! Oh, hush. If they do that, how will they find time to teach the kids how to fly, sing, swim and all that other necessary stuff? Or, more accurate probably, . Magnet schools around here turn 16 year olds into pilots, single engine style, a really, really essential culture and business skill. Charlie Self "Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure." Ambrose Bierce |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
"jo4hn" • No individual, party or ideology has cornered the market on truth or God's blessing. No, but some are closer than others. • Dying soldiers in all countries call for their mothers with their last breath. Not sure where you get that. Could be God, wives, husbands, lovers, or children. • War is almost always a tragic detour from the more difficult road of peace. Sometimes it's the solution for peace. It worked in Japan, Germany and South Korea, for example. • Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional right to free speech is not a patriot. In a true democracy, all points of view are valued and heard. Ask the DNC why it puts partisanship over those rights. Ralph Nader has been blocked from his constitutional rights in many states. Millions have been disenfrancised by Democrats who believe in free speech as long as you agree with them. • Love is the core value of the Islamic, For many perhaps. But for others hate, oppression and death are their core values. Christian and Jewish faiths. Only love and understanding can bring the peace and security all good people of the world desire. That's a utopian dream but unfortunantly not reality. Sometimes peace must be bought with bullets, bombs and blood. That doesn't sound as hip or poetic but it's the truth. Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted. Correction. Every legal vote should be counted. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Fletis Humplebacker wrote:
SNIP Ask the DNC why it puts partisanship over those rights. Ralph Nader has been blocked from his constitutional rights in many states. Millions have been disenfrancised by Democrats who believe in free speech as long as you agree with them. Neither party has a monopolyon allowing frre speech. Two talk radio guys out here have targeted David Dreier, a pro illigal immigration republican, for defeat, and the National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC) is trying to shut them up by having them charged with felonies. (more info here http://www.johnandkenshow.com/ ) Let me add, I am a registerd republican, but I also believe in free speech. Glen |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
John, I've read a lot of good stuff from you. Disappointed in this.
• No individual, party or ideology has cornered the market on truth or God's blessing. Couldn't agree with you more. You sure God's taking a personal interest in current activities or allowing us to feel our way and find the truth on our own? • Dying soldiers in all countries call for their mothers with their last breath. • Any child killed by war, poverty, abuse or neglect is one too many. We're all children of mothers who loved us. Any sacrifice for an ideal unwarranted? • Fear is our worst enemy. Those who would scare us are not our friends. Sounds like "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" We've all come to admire that sentiment. • 9/11 was a tragic event. But everything did not change. The sad fact is, too much has remained the same, or gotten worse. • Killing innocents in any war dishonors those who died on 9/11. That's idealistic bull ****. We killed a bunch of innocent Japanese in order to end WWII. We didn't start that war. There would have been more deaths on both sides had we invaded the Japanese mainland. Innocents slaughtered were regrettable but justified. Same will be true in the future. I hate it, but there it is. what about innocents on the aircraft or in the World Trade Towers? • Those most distant from a conflict are always the ones shouting loudest for war. Naw, left wing crybabies are so far from the war, your statement proves untrue. I spent 20 some years active duty in the US Army. None of us looked forward to war. We did realize that it might be necessary in our national interest and we were willing to die in the effort. "He who stands for nothing will swallow anything." So much for respect for all opinions. • War is almost always a tragic detour from the more difficult road of peace. Replace the work tragic with necessary. • Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional right to free speech is not a patriot. In a true democracy, all points of view are valued and heard. All points of view are heard. Some are of no value whatsoever. • Love is the core value of the Islamic, Christian and Jewish faiths. Only love and understanding can bring the peace and security all good people of the world desire. Read me a whole bunch of material where "Love" is a major part of the Islamic faith. I have muslim friends who give me this line. In politeness, I don't throw it back at them without backup. After a lot of reading since 9/11 I'm becoming doubtful. Is this true? Where has all this "kill the infidels" stuff been sidetracked? Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted. [written by Stuart S. Light in the LA Times, Oct 30, 2004] Feel free to comment, but as always, without using words like liberal, left, right, or wing. mahalo, jo4hn |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Only intolerance for the
intolerable can allow for tolerance for the tolerable. Defining that which is equally intolerable by all men and taking measures to limit it is the only way we can establish the closest thing to true peace we will ever know here on this earth. . Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
"Glen" Fletis Humplebacker wrote: SNIP Ask the DNC why it puts partisanship over those rights. Ralph Nader has been blocked from his constitutional rights in many states. Millions have been disenfrancised by Democrats who believe in free speech as long as you agree with them. Neither party has a monopolyon allowing frre speech. Two talk radio guys out here have targeted David Dreier, a pro illigal immigration republican, for defeat, and the National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC) is trying to shut them up by having them charged with felonies. (more info here http://www.johnandkenshow.com/ ) Let me add, I am a registerd republican, but I also believe in free speech. Glen There's no information but the headlines there. I have no idea if the NRCC has a proper case or what any details are. However, restricting a candidate from the ballot because you're afraid of the votes he may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised voters" hysteria. How sad but Ralph has promised to follow up on the legalities after the elections. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Robert Galloway wrote: True Americans recognize that freedom of speech is one of the cornerstones of what makes this society/political system worth defending/perpetuating. Most of us knee jerk libertarian/right wing nutsos defend your right of free speech. How do you defend the Bush team's sanitization of any dissenting speech at public rallies? And I'm not speaking of vocal disruptions but t-shirts and placards - topped off by requiring a signed "loyalty oath". Those actions speak volumes to how much this administration is averse to hearing any point of view that differs with its own. From day one they've had an attitude of "you're either with us or against us" to one and all, concerning one and all. They don't give a damn about anyone's point of view but their own. I truly fear for the future if Bush becomes a lame duck president. As it is now, we, our kids and grandkids will pay for his actions for decades to come. -- Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company ____ "To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring." -- Ann Hayman Zwinger |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Robert Galloway responds:
€¢ Killing innocents in any war dishonors those who died on 9/11. That's idealistic bull ****. We killed a bunch of innocent Japanese in order to end WWII. We didn't start that war. There would have been more deaths on both sides had we invaded the Japanese mainland. Innocents slaughtered were regrettable but justified. Same will be true in the future. I hate it, but there it is. what about innocents on the aircraft or in the World Trade Towers? That one gives me a headache. The rationale for the atom bombs was, and is, excellent, no matter what the revisionists say today or tomorrow, but how does that relate to the innocents in the aircraft or the World Trade Towers? That's a non sequitur. €¢ Those most distant from a conflict are always the ones shouting loudest for war. Naw, left wing crybabies are so far from the war, your statement proves untrue. I spent 20 some years active duty in the US Army. None of us looked forward to war. We did realize that it might be necessary in our national interest and we were willing to die in the effort. "He who stands for nothing will swallow anything." So much for respect for all opinions. You do love your non sequiturs. €¢ War is almost always a tragic detour from the more difficult road of peace. Replace the work tragic with necessary. In your opinion. Which, in my opinion, is incorrect. €¢ Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional right to free speech is not a patriot. In a true democracy, all points of view are valued and heard. All points of view are heard. Some are of no value whatsoever. Again, in your opinion. Which, in my view, is still incorrect. And, I seem to recall, no one among us has been set up as supreme arbiter, so it's a bit of a tie as to whose POV is of no value whatsoever. Charlie Self "Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure." Ambrose Bierce |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news In article , Robert Galloway wrote: True Americans recognize that freedom of speech is one of the cornerstones of what makes this society/political system worth defending/perpetuating. Most of us knee jerk libertarian/right wing nutsos defend your right of free speech. How do you defend the Bush team's sanitization of any dissenting speech at public rallies? And I'm not speaking of vocal disruptions but t-shirts and placards - topped off by requiring a signed "loyalty oath". Those actions speak volumes to how much this administration is averse to hearing any point of view that differs with its own. From day one they've had an attitude of "you're either with us or against us" to one and all, concerning one and all. They don't give a damn about anyone's point of view but their own. I truly fear for the future if Bush becomes a lame duck president. As it is now, we, our kids and grandkids will pay for his actions for decades to come. Humor speaks volumes about truth sometimes: http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=17961 Bush supporters: Click the link. It's a cartoon. There's very little to read. Minimal effort. |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:18:08 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
How do you defend the Bush team's sanitization of any dissenting speech at public rallies? And I'm not speaking of vocal disruptions but t-shirts and placards - topped off by requiring a signed "loyalty oath". Those actions speak volumes to how much this administration is averse to hearing any point of view that differs with its own. From day one they've had an attitude of "you're either with us or against us" to one and all, concerning one and all. They don't give a damn about anyone's point of view but their own. I truly fear for the future if Bush becomes a lame duck president. As it is now, we, our kids and grandkids will pay for his actions for decades to come. Owen, I have no idea where you're getting this "loyalty oath" crap. I went to the Phoenix Diamondback stadium rally for Bush along with 40,000 other folks following the last debate. There was no qualifications or any questions in the ticket process. There were metal detectors and airport type security at the gates, but there was zero to do with party affiliations or who do you like stuff. There were a few demonstrators outside with Republicans for Kerry signs, and by some of the conversation in line, some Kerry supporters attended the event with no problems - and no "loyalty oath". Most folks were there to support Bush. -Doug -- "It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions." --Thomas Jefferson |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message news On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:18:08 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote: How do you defend the Bush team's sanitization of any dissenting speech at public rallies? And I'm not speaking of vocal disruptions but t-shirts and placards - topped off by requiring a signed "loyalty oath". Those actions speak volumes to how much this administration is averse to hearing any point of view that differs with its own. From day one they've had an attitude of "you're either with us or against us" to one and all, concerning one and all. They don't give a damn about anyone's point of view but their own. I truly fear for the future if Bush becomes a lame duck president. As it is now, we, our kids and grandkids will pay for his actions for decades to come. Owen, I have no idea where you're getting this "loyalty oath" crap. I went to the Phoenix Diamondback stadium rally for Bush along with 40,000 other folks following the last debate. There was no qualifications or any questions in the ticket process. There were metal detectors and airport type security at the gates, but there was zero to do with party affiliations or who do you like stuff. There were a few demonstrators outside with Republicans for Kerry signs, and by some of the conversation in line, some Kerry supporters attended the event with no problems - and no "loyalty oath". Most folks were there to support Bush. -Doug In other cities, protesters were granted permits, but only if their gatherings took place blocks away, far from TV cameras. As I recall, Bush's spokespersons have not mentioned concerns about violence with regard to this type of segregation. They want to keep the blinders on their supporters. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:25:11 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote:
In other cities, protesters were granted permits, but only if their gatherings took place blocks away, far from TV cameras. As I recall, Bush's spokespersons have not mentioned concerns about violence with regard to this type of segregation. They want to keep the blinders on their supporters. What a load - if there are any anti Bush protesters anywhere, the press and TV cameras will find them and portray them as the main event. -Doug -- "It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions." --Thomas Jefferson |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
"Nate Perkins" "Fletis Humplebacker" ... may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised voters" hysteria. ... Obviously a bunch of "hysteria" on the subject of disenfranchised voters. Probably propagated by the Liberal Media. Here's the part you missed, the first sentence: "Citing a new list of more than 37,000 questionable addresses..." Only legal votes should be counted, do you have a problem with that? What does that have to do with disenfranchising millions of legal voters? Same old liberal tactics, smear, obfiscate, accuse, etc... Whatever it takes to whip up emotional support. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message news On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:25:11 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote: In other cities, protesters were granted permits, but only if their gatherings took place blocks away, far from TV cameras. As I recall, Bush's spokespersons have not mentioned concerns about violence with regard to this type of segregation. They want to keep the blinders on their supporters. What a load - if there are any anti Bush protesters anywhere, the press and TV cameras will find them and portray them as the main event. -Doug Of course they found them! Now, you'd think it would make an impression on any patriot to see how free speech had been relegated to a parking lot, but apparently, Nookular Boy doesn't appeal to patriots. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:41:21 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote:
Of course they found them! Now, you'd think it would make an impression on any patriot to see how free speech had been relegated to a parking lot, but apparently, Nookular Boy doesn't appeal to patriots. Fortunately, there's still room in my Micheal Moore loonie bin. Bye. -- "It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions." --Thomas Jefferson |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Doug Winterburn wrote:
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:41:21 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote: Of course they found them! Now, you'd think it would make an impression on any patriot to see how free speech had been relegated to a parking lot, but apparently, Nookular Boy doesn't appeal to patriots. Fortunately, there's still room in my Micheal Moore loonie bin. Bye. Welcome to the loonie bin, Doug. JK |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
"James T. Kirby" wrote in message ... Doug Winterburn wrote: On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:41:21 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote: Of course they found them! Now, you'd think it would make an impression on any patriot to see how free speech had been relegated to a parking lot, but apparently, Nookular Boy doesn't appeal to patriots. Fortunately, there's still room in my Micheal Moore loonie bin. Bye. Welcome to the loonie bin, Doug. JK They really can't handle it, can they? :-) http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=17961 |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
"Fletis Humplebacker" ! wrote in message ...
"Nate Perkins" "Fletis Humplebacker" ... may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised voters" hysteria. ... Obviously a bunch of "hysteria" on the subject of disenfranchised voters. Probably propagated by the Liberal Media. Here's the part you missed, the first sentence: "Citing a new list of more than 37,000 questionable addresses..." Only legal votes should be counted, do you have a problem with that? What does that have to do with disenfranchising millions of legal voters? Same old liberal tactics, smear, obfiscate, accuse, etc... Whatever it takes to whip up emotional support. I posted fourteen separate links. Are you saying that's the first sentence in each of the fourteen links? Okay, so here's another article by the New York Times. Obviously the Times is just another liberal media source out to smear, obfiscate (sic), accuse, etc: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/01/po.../01voting.html |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
"Nate Perkins" "Fletis Humplebacker" "Nate Perkins" "Fletis Humplebacker" ... may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised voters" hysteria. ... Obviously a bunch of "hysteria" on the subject of disenfranchised voters. Probably propagated by the Liberal Media. Here's the part you missed, the first sentence: "Citing a new list of more than 37,000 questionable addresses..." Only legal votes should be counted, do you have a problem with that? What does that have to do with disenfranchising millions of legal voters? Same old liberal tactics, smear, obfiscate, accuse, etc... Whatever it takes to whip up emotional support. I posted fourteen separate links. Are you saying that's the first sentence in each of the fourteen links? Nope, first one. Okay, so here's another article by the New York Times. Obviously the Times is just another liberal media source out to smear, obfiscate (sic), accuse, etc: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/01/po.../01voting.html Usually so but here's what I mean: [Much of the tone has been set by a propaganda war of sorts between the parties, with the Democrats charging that efforts are being made to suppress the vote and Republicans warning against voter fraud or double voting.] [Jenny Backus, another adviser to the D.N.C., said that early voting had gone smoothly, and that Election Day would too. "For all the Republican talk of beware, beware, millions of Americans are having a perfectly pleasant voting experience," she said.] Which side is promoting the hysteria? The side saying watch for illegal voting, especially when there's more registered voters than eligible voters, or those claiming voter suppression? No wonder Jenny's a mouthpiece for the DNC. |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:25:11 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: "Doug Winterburn" wrote in message news On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:18:08 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote: How do you defend the Bush team's sanitization of any dissenting speech at public rallies? And I'm not speaking of vocal disruptions but t-shirts and placards - topped off by requiring a signed "loyalty oath". Those actions speak volumes to how much this administration is averse to hearing any point of view that differs with its own. From day one they've had an attitude of "you're either with us or against us" to one and all, concerning one and all. They don't give a damn about anyone's point of view but their own. I truly fear for the future if Bush becomes a lame duck president. As it is now, we, our kids and grandkids will pay for his actions for decades to come. Owen, I have no idea where you're getting this "loyalty oath" crap. I went to the Phoenix Diamondback stadium rally for Bush along with 40,000 other folks following the last debate. There was no qualifications or any questions in the ticket process. There were metal detectors and airport type security at the gates, but there was zero to do with party affiliations or who do you like stuff. There were a few demonstrators outside with Republicans for Kerry signs, and by some of the conversation in line, some Kerry supporters attended the event with no problems - and no "loyalty oath". Most folks were there to support Bush. -Doug In other cities, protesters were granted permits, but only if their gatherings took place blocks away, far from TV cameras. That is absolute, pure, unadulterated BS. Far from TV cameras my @$$! If there was a protest, I guarantee you that the mainstream media, were they alerted to where the protest was going to occur were going to be there. It could have been in the next state for all they cared, the networks were going to cover any and every protest. As a matter of fact, it would have been even better were they to have been forced to be in the next state, the lead on the network newscast would have been, "A hearty band of protestors, excluded by the Bush administration from protesting near their campaign activity were forced to hold their gathering in nearby ...." As I recall, Bush's spokespersons have not mentioned concerns about violence with regard to this type of segregation. They want to keep the blinders on their supporters. Given the expressed purpose of many of the protests as stated beforehand, "to disrupt the Bush speech", etc. it seems that the protesters were the ones trying to stifle the free speech of those whom they opposed. Do you honestly believe that Bush supporters don't see the nightly newscasts, or other reports of the protests and anti-Bush talking points? Now, as a counter-point, please provide me mainstream references that portrayed Bush in a positive light. |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
On 1 Nov 2004 05:38:52 -0800, (Nate Perkins) wrote:
"Fletis Humplebacker" ! wrote in message ... ... may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised voters" hysteria. ... http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/o...p?format=print Horror of horrors! Demanding that registered voters actually identify themselves as to who they are! Whoever heard of such a thing? Sounds more like a reason to suspect extensive voter fraud during this election. Quoting, "The initial GOP challenge, which was dismissed 3-0 by the city Election Commission last week, cited thousands of cases where no voter address exists, such as vacant lots and, in one case, a gyros stand." ... and you are screaming about disenfranchisement? I'm stunned that the city election commission is not concerned about the fact that "registered voters" can't provide a legitimate address. OK, well I'm not, after all, the city election commission is probably highly supportive of fraud as long as it promotes their candidate. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/3956129.stm So it's OK for fraudulent voting to occur; heaven forbid anyone slow down the process. http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/22/Pa...f_warns_.shtml This one I'll grant should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/16/Hi...ctions_c.shtml ????? Where's the partisanship or disenfranchisement here? Or are you saying that Democrats are just less able to figure out things than others? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct25.html Not registering with WP http://www.daytondailynews.com/local...026voting.html Bad link http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaind...9734214610.xml Fail to see how making sure that the voter's rolls are correct is disenfranchisement. I know it makes it harder to commit voter fraud, but taking inactive voters off the rolls (it takes 8 years!?) doesn't seem to be disenfranchisement. If those people show up, they do get to cast a provisional ballot -- it just means that they have to prove who they are and that they are not somebody voting for one of those "inactive" voters. http://www.dispatch.com/election/ele...022-A1-00.html Prosecutable fraud. http://www.cincypost.com/2004/10/18/absen101804.html http://www.cincypost.com/2004/10/18/absen101804.html Frankly, if they didn't notice Kerry's name was missing, they ought not be voting anyway. Doubling up links here to give sheer weight in numbers? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6346293/ Yeah, the USPS is firmly in Bush's camp. Sheesh. Part of the remainder of the story is about Democrats intimidating Republicans to keep them from voting. If one can show that they are who they say they are, why would being asked to produce identification prior to voting be considered to be suppression? http://www.stpetersburgtimes.com/200...s_voters.shtml Maybe those are the areas in which they are most concerned about voter fraud? Dems are welcome to watch the polls in the other precincts --- they don't seem to be worried about fraud on that end. Hmmm. http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_266695.html So they didn't read the petition before signing it? ... and they vote? http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/pp/04296/399788.stm Bad link Most of your links seem to be concerned with preventing the very real possiblity of voter fraud. The actions of ACORN and other activists certainly seem to point to the potential for attempted voter fraud; the pride of the mayor of Pittsburg who stated that in the last election, every registered voter cast a ballot; the University of Wisconsin students who admitted in 2000 to casting multiple ballots, the abnormally high amount of returned mail from registered voter addresses in many precincts make this more than a hypothetical thought exercise or kook conspiracy theory. It's one thing to lose an election, it's another to lose it due to fraudulent voting. Obviously a bunch of "hysteria" on the subject of disenfranchised voters. Probably propagated by the Liberal Media. |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Doug Winterburn wrote: Owen, I have no idea where you're getting this "loyalty oath" crap. You haven't heard any reports of such tactics by the Bush team? http://www.casperstartribune.net/art...wyoming/63b4fc b928fe8e6987256ee10054e715.txt I went to the Phoenix Diamondback stadium rally for Bush along with 40,000 other folks following the last debate. There was no qualifications or any questions in the ticket process. There were metal detectors and airport type security at the gates, but there was zero to do with party affiliations or who do you like stuff. There were a few demonstrators outside with Republicans for Kerry signs, and by some of the conversation in line, some Kerry supporters attended the event with no problems - and no "loyalty oath". Most folks were there to support Bush. Well maybe they've learned a bit, but I know of three female teachers who were escorted out of a Bush speech a couple weeks ago in Oregon because they were wearing t-shirts printed with, "Protect Our Civil Liberties." In an interview with one of them, she said they had no intention of speaking out and were told by rally workers that they were not welcome and were escorted off of the county fairgrounds by Oregon State Police. Similar t-shirt incidents have occurred across the country. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...ews/1097928233 288440.xml Just last week, I saw a news clip on the Newshour with Tom(?) Lehrer, showing about 8 to 10(my estimate) people escorted out of a stadium when they held up placards with, "380,000 tons" printed across them. They were up in the top rows and it certainly would have been difficult for them to make an audible disturbance (the news report didn't mention or broadcast anything audible). They *really* don't want there to be any appearance of dissent. Remember, their way or the highway. -- Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company ____ "To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring." -- Ann Hayman Zwinger |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
... Now, as a counter-point, please provide me mainstream references that portrayed Bush in a positive light. That's hard to find. You know that. You also know there's a reason for it, and it's got little or nothing to do with bias. |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news In article , Doug Winterburn wrote: Owen, I have no idea where you're getting this "loyalty oath" crap. You haven't heard any reports of such tactics by the Bush team? http://www.casperstartribune.net/art...wyoming/63b4fc b928fe8e6987256ee10054e715.txt I went to the Phoenix Diamondback stadium rally for Bush along with 40,000 other folks following the last debate. There was no qualifications or any questions in the ticket process. There were metal detectors and airport type security at the gates, but there was zero to do with party affiliations or who do you like stuff. There were a few demonstrators outside with Republicans for Kerry signs, and by some of the conversation in line, some Kerry supporters attended the event with no problems - and no "loyalty oath". Most folks were there to support Bush. Well maybe they've learned a bit, but I know of three female teachers who were escorted out of a Bush speech a couple weeks ago in Oregon because they were wearing t-shirts printed with, "Protect Our Civil Liberties." In an interview with one of them, she said they had no intention of speaking out and were told by rally workers that they were not welcome and were escorted off of the county fairgrounds by Oregon State Police. Similar t-shirt incidents have occurred across the country. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...ews/1097928233 288440.xml Just last week, I saw a news clip on the Newshour with Tom(?) Lehrer, showing about 8 to 10(my estimate) people escorted out of a stadium when they held up placards with, "380,000 tons" printed across them. They were up in the top rows and it certainly would have been difficult for them to make an audible disturbance (the news report didn't mention or broadcast anything audible). They *really* don't want there to be any appearance of dissent. Remember, their way or the highway. The response by the faithful will be that if they weren't sitting on your lap when you saw these news reports, then you really didn't see them. :-) |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:40:21 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article , Doug Winterburn wrote: Owen, I have no idea where you're getting this "loyalty oath" crap. You haven't heard any reports of such tactics by the Bush team? http://www.casperstartribune.net/art...wyoming/63b4fc b928fe8e6987256ee10054e715.txt I went to the Phoenix Diamondback stadium rally for Bush along with 40,000 other folks following the last debate. There was no qualifications or any questions in the ticket process. There were metal detectors and airport type security at the gates, but there was zero to do with party affiliations or who do you like stuff. There were a few demonstrators outside with Republicans for Kerry signs, and by some of the conversation in line, some Kerry supporters attended the event with no problems - and no "loyalty oath". Most folks were there to support Bush. Well maybe they've learned a bit, but I know of three female teachers who were escorted out of a Bush speech a couple weeks ago in Oregon because they were wearing t-shirts printed with, "Protect Our Civil Liberties." In an interview with one of them, she said they had no intention of speaking out and were told by rally workers that they were not welcome and were escorted off of the county fairgrounds by Oregon State Police. Similar t-shirt incidents have occurred across the country. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...ews/1097928233 288440.xml Just last week, I saw a news clip on the Newshour with Tom(?) Lehrer, showing about 8 to 10(my estimate) people escorted out of a stadium when they held up placards with, "380,000 tons" printed across them. They were up in the top rows and it certainly would have been difficult for them to make an audible disturbance (the news report didn't mention or broadcast anything audible). They *really* don't want there to be any appearance of dissent. Remember, their way or the highway. I assume you're dropping the "loyalty oath" BS? What's with 380.000 tons? The original charge was 380 tons. Since you or I weren't there, we have no idea what sort of disturbance these folks may have caused. I also wasn't aware the Oregon State Police took orders from rally organizers. -- "It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions." --Thomas Jefferson |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Doug Winterburn wrote: I assume you're dropping the "loyalty oath" BS? Why's that? You still think it didn't happen? What's with 380.000 tons? The original charge was 380 tons. Since you or I weren't there, we have no idea what sort of disturbance these folks may have caused. I also wasn't aware the Oregon State Police took orders from rally organizers. Again, you think the State Police didn't do what the account says they did? -- Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company ____ "To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring." -- Ann Hayman Zwinger |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:52:07 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article , Doug Winterburn wrote: I assume you're dropping the "loyalty oath" BS? Why's that? You still think it didn't happen? I've seen nothing but left wing propoganda to indicate it happened. Is there any cites other than moveon.org? What's with 380.000 tons? The original charge was 380 tons. Since you or I weren't there, we have no idea what sort of disturbance these folks may have caused. I also wasn't aware the Oregon State Police took orders from rally organizers. Again, you think the State Police didn't do what the account says they did? The question is why they did what they did and at whose direction. Do you know the circumstances and who gave the orders and why? |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Doug Winterburn wrote in
news I've seen nothing but left wing propoganda to indicate it happened. Is there any cites other than moveon.org? Criminy Doug, DAGS; you'll find every thing from Rolling Stone to MSNBC; among the links, yeah, a lot of "left wing propaganda", but numerous newspaper articles as well. Surely you don't believe *every* newspapaper and website are a tool of the left, do you? Regards, JT |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 22:32:16 +0000, John Thomas wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote in news I've seen nothing but left wing propoganda to indicate it happened. Is there any cites other than moveon.org? Criminy Doug, DAGS; you'll find every thing from Rolling Stone to MSNBC; among the links, yeah, a lot of "left wing propaganda", but numerous newspaper articles as well. Surely you don't believe *every* newspapaper and website are a tool of the left, do you? Well, IDAGS on bush loyalty oath and amonst all the blogs I found this: http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/politics/7853392.htm Apparently, Democrats in South Carolina don't even want you to vote without signing a loyalty oath! |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
UPDATE - Soft wreck vote might be voided (was RESULT: rec.woodworking.all-ages passes 283:93) | Woodworking | |||
email spoofs going on regarding the rec.woodworking.all-ages vote | Woodworking | |||
I ain't No senator's son... | Metalworking | |||
OT for Texans VOTE NO ! | Metalworking |