This campaign season has been marked with a high degree of partisanship
and rancor in the discourse leading up to Tuesday's presidential
election. Both sides, armed with focus groups and experts, have crafted
messages gilded with oversimplifications and spurious "facts."

Logic, common sense and truth scatter like dust before the powerful and
well-financed marketing machines roaring across the landscape. My
advice? Take time to reflect on what is truly important, and let your
own intelligence and compassion guide your decisions.

Here's some food for thought before you vote:

• Democrat, Republican, Green, Independent, Libertarian, left, right,
center, liberal, moderate, conservative, rich, poor, gay, straight,
black, white, brown, male, female, pro-life, pro-choice — we're a mixed
bag, but we're all Americans.

• No individual, party or ideology has cornered the market on truth or
God's blessing.

• Dying soldiers in all countries call for their mothers with their
last breath.

• Any child killed by war, poverty, abuse or neglect is one too many.

• Fear is our worst enemy. Those who would scare us are not our friends.

• 9/11 was a tragic event. But everything did not change. The sad fact
is, too much has remained the same, or gotten worse.

• Killing innocents in any war dishonors those who died on 9/11.

• Those most distant from a conflict are always the ones shouting
loudest for war.

• War is almost always a tragic detour from the more difficult road of
peace.

• Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional
right to free speech is not a patriot. In a true democracy, all points
of view are valued and heard.

• Love is the core value of the Islamic, Christian and Jewish faiths.
Only love and understanding can bring the peace and security all good
people of the world desire.

Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted.

[written by Stuart S. Light in the LA Times, Oct 30, 2004]

Feel free to comment, but as always, without using words like liberal,
left, right, or wing.
mahalo,
jo4hn

"jo4hn" wrote in message
nk.net...

• Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional
right to free speech is not a patriot.

That used to be (and may still be) a favorite tactic of the Kremlin. And, I
just heard a news story about how Jordanians can get hauled before a
"tribunal" for opening their mouths and letting the wrong words come out. If
they're lucky, that all they get, but usually, they're not that lucky and
end up doing jail time.

It's interesting how some Americans like to use the word "treason" anytime
someone expresses a view that doesn't agree with whomever happens to have
the biggest mouth at the moment, especially if our soldiers are overseas at
the time. I've always wanted to speak to a handful of psychologists to
understand this mentality. Is it a desperate way of seeking false security?

These are some mighty fine sentiments and worthy of meditation but it needs
some editing.....

• Democrat, Republican, Green, Independent, Libertarian, left, right,
center, liberal, moderate, conservative, rich, poor, gay, straight,
black, white, brown, male, female, pro-life, pro-choice — we're a mixed
bag, but we're all Americans with the freedoms to form opinions.
This doesn't necessarily mean all opinions are valid.

• No individual, party or ideology has cornered the market on truth or
God's blessing but all have a reason for their beliefs.

• Dying soldiers in all countries die for a reason.

• Any child killed by war, poverty, abuse or neglect is one too many. Every
chance this
may happen is one chance to many.

• Fear is our worst enemy. Those who would scare us are not our friends.
It must not cripple us.

• 9/11 was a tragic event. Some things changed. Some things remained the
same
Some grew worse. Some grew better.

• Killing innocents in any war right or wrong is unavoidable.

• Those most distant from a conflict are the ones in the best position
to see clearly.

• War doesn't always lead to peace. Peace rarely comes without it.

• Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional
right to free speech is exercising their right for the same. In a true
democracy, all points
of view are heard. Not all are unilaterally valued.

• Love is the core value of man. Various faiths and beliefs render it
impossible for all men to love each other. Only intolerance for the
intolerable can allow
for tolerance for the tolerable. Defining that which is equally intolerable
by all men
and taking measures to limit it is the only way we can establish the closest
thing
to true peace we will ever know here on this earth.
..

Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted.

snip valid opinions

Every vote counts, (and every vote should be counted.)

Only if the electoral college is eliminated.
After all, it is the 21st century where it's damn near impossible not to be
able to get somewhere to vote.
The EC is way out dated.

Gary

"GeeDubb" wrote in message
...
snip valid opinions

Every vote counts, (and every vote should be counted.)

Only if the electoral college is eliminated.
After all, it is the 21st century where it's damn near impossible not to
be
able to get somewhere to vote.
The EC is way out dated.


That's not what the EC is for. The EC prevents politicians from pandering
to the 6 or so major population centers where most Americans live, and
ignoring the the rest of the country. I guess I should say
"disenfranchising" instead of "ignoring" since this is the catchword of the
day.

dwhite

"GeeDubb" wrote in message

snip valid opinions

Every vote counts, (and every vote should be counted.)

Only if the electoral college is eliminated.
After all, it is the 21st century where it's damn near impossible not to
be
able to get somewhere to vote.
The EC is way out dated.

?? Damn! ... is the grasp of US constitutional history that obviously
lacking since they stopped teaching citizenship in schools? It is no wonder
the country is in the state it's in.

The US specifically has a republican form of government, not a democracy,
and the electoral college was one of those institutions, as well as the
popular election of representatives who in turn make the laws, specifically
instituted to discourage rule by majority.

Quoting one of the founding fathers, and the biggest proponent of the EC, in
the Federalist Papers:

"...a well-constructed Union" must, above all else, "break and control the
violence of faction," especially "the superior force of an . . . overbearing
majority." In any democracy, a majority's power threatens minorities. It
threatens their rights, their property, and sometimes their lives."

Just ask any black/japanese American whether they recognize what the
"tyranny of the majority" in a democracy can do.

It appears that it's high time they start teaching civics, constitutional
history, and citizenship in the schools again!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/04/04

Swingman wrote:
"GeeDubb" wrote in message

snip valid opinions

Every vote counts, (and every vote should be counted.)

Only if the electoral college is eliminated.
After all, it is the 21st century where it's damn near impossible
not to be able to get somewhere to vote.
The EC is way out dated.

?? Damn! ... is the grasp of US constitutional history that obviously
lacking since they stopped teaching citizenship in schools? It is no
wonder the country is in the state it's in.

The US specifically has a republican form of government, not a
democracy, and the electoral college was one of those institutions,
as well as the popular election of representatives who in turn make
the laws, specifically instituted to discourage rule by majority.

Quoting one of the founding fathers, and the biggest proponent of the
EC, in the Federalist Papers:

"...a well-constructed Union" must, above all else, "break and
control the violence of faction," especially "the superior force of
an . . . overbearing majority." In any democracy, a majority's power
threatens minorities. It threatens their rights, their property, and
sometimes their lives."

Just ask any black/japanese American whether they recognize what the
"tyranny of the majority" in a democracy can do.

It appears that it's high time they start teaching civics,
constitutional history, and citizenship in the schools again!

Civics lesson accepted. I keep forgetting this is supposed to be a
Republic. It's been a while since I've had any history anything and the US
media as well as the politicians cram democracy down our throat.

I'm not whining about the last election. I voted for Bush.

Still the fact remains that I believe the EC needs to be eliminated. The
majority of the US populous lives outside of the six major metro areas so I
think your reasoning may be a little flawed (IMO) but valid in the fact that
the rest of the populous wouldn't be subjected to the political banter going
on currently (maybe that would be a good thing???). When a state is split
50.5 to 49.5 (or somewhat close) I have a real problem with giving all
electoral votes to one candidate. It's not representative of what the
People are voting (though statistically pretty close).

If we insist on keeping the EC I think Colorado may have the right idea with
splitting the EC vote (voter approval of course and barring any
constitutional back lash). I see it as being more representative of the
popular vote.

This opinion is just that, an opinion.

Gary

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:36:16 -0700, GeeDubb wrote:


Still the fact remains that I believe the EC needs to be eliminated. The
majority of the US populous lives outside of the six major metro areas so
I think your reasoning may be a little flawed (IMO) but valid in the fact
that the rest of the populous wouldn't be subjected to the political
banter going on currently (maybe that would be a good thing???). When a
state is split 50.5 to 49.5 (or somewhat close) I have a real problem with
giving all electoral votes to one candidate. It's not representative of
what the People are voting (though statistically pretty close).

If this was a true democracy, we'd also have to eliminate the senate as it
represents the states as entities rather than an equal representation by
population. The makeup of the bicameral legislature and the same
representation in the electoral college are the reason the smaller states
even went along with the current union - so they wouldn't be run
completely over by the more populous states.

-Doug

--
"It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among
[my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between
political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person,
the hatred they bore to his political opinions." --Thomas Jefferson

Swingman writes:


Quoting one of the founding fathers, and the biggest proponent of the EC, in
the Federalist Papers:

"...a well-constructed Union" must, above all else, "break and control the
violence of faction," especially "the superior force of an . . . overbearing
majority." In any democracy, a majority's power threatens minorities. It
threatens their rights, their property, and sometimes their lives."

Just ask any black/japanese American whether they recognize what the
"tyranny of the majority" in a democracy can do.

It appears that it's high time they start teaching civics, constitutional
history, and citizenship in the schools again!

Oh, hush. If they do that, how will they find time to teach the kids how to
fly, sing, swim and all that other necessary stuff? Or, more accurate
probably, .

Magnet schools around here turn 16 year olds into pilots, single engine style,
a really, really essential culture and business skill.

Charlie Self
"Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a
pleasure." Ambrose Bierce

Only intolerance for the
intolerable can allow
for tolerance for the tolerable. Defining that which is equally intolerable
by all men
and taking measures to limit it is the only way we can establish the closest
thing
to true peace we will ever know here on this earth.
.

Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted.

"jo4hn"

• No individual, party or ideology has cornered the market on truth or
God's blessing.


No, but some are closer than others.



• Dying soldiers in all countries call for their mothers with their
last breath.


Not sure where you get that. Could be God, wives, husbands, lovers, or children.


• War is almost always a tragic detour from the more difficult road of
peace.


Sometimes it's the solution for peace. It worked in Japan, Germany and South
Korea, for example.


• Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional
right to free speech is not a patriot. In a true democracy, all points
of view are valued and heard.


Ask the DNC why it puts partisanship over those rights. Ralph Nader has
been blocked from his constitutional rights in many states. Millions have
been disenfrancised by Democrats who believe in free speech as long as
you agree with them.


• Love is the core value of the Islamic,


For many perhaps. But for others hate, oppression and death are their
core values.


Christian and Jewish faiths.
Only love and understanding can bring the peace and security all good
people of the world desire.


That's a utopian dream but unfortunantly not reality. Sometimes peace
must be bought with bullets, bombs and blood. That doesn't sound as hip
or poetic but it's the truth.

Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted.


Correction. Every legal vote should be counted.

Fletis Humplebacker wrote:
SNIP

Ask the DNC why it puts partisanship over those rights. Ralph Nader has
been blocked from his constitutional rights in many states. Millions have
been disenfrancised by Democrats who believe in free speech as long as
you agree with them.

Neither party has a monopolyon allowing frre speech. Two talk radio
guys out here have targeted David Dreier, a pro illigal immigration
republican, for defeat, and the National Republican Congressional
Committee (NRCC) is trying to shut them up by having them charged with
felonies. (more info here http://www.johnandkenshow.com/ )

Let me add, I am a registerd republican, but I also believe in free
speech.

Glen

"Glen"
Fletis Humplebacker wrote:
SNIP

Ask the DNC why it puts partisanship over those rights. Ralph Nader has
been blocked from his constitutional rights in many states. Millions have
been disenfrancised by Democrats who believe in free speech as long as
you agree with them.


Neither party has a monopolyon allowing frre speech. Two talk radio
guys out here have targeted David Dreier, a pro illigal immigration
republican, for defeat, and the National Republican Congressional
Committee (NRCC) is trying to shut them up by having them charged with
felonies. (more info here http://www.johnandkenshow.com/ )

Let me add, I am a registerd republican, but I also believe in free
speech.

Glen


There's no information but the headlines there. I have no idea
if the NRCC has a proper case or what any details are. However,
restricting a candidate from the ballot because you're afraid of the votes he
may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised
voters" hysteria. How sad but Ralph has promised to follow up on the legalities
after the elections.

"Fletis Humplebacker" ! wrote in message ...

....
may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised
voters" hysteria.
....

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/o...p?format=print
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/3956129.stm
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/22/Pa...f_warns_.shtml
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/16/Hi...ctions_c.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct25.html
http://www.daytondailynews.com/local...026voting.html
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaind...9734214610.xml
http://www.dispatch.com/election/ele...022-A1-00.html
http://www.cincypost.com/2004/10/18/absen101804.html
http://www.cincypost.com/2004/10/18/absen101804.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6346293/
http://www.stpetersburgtimes.com/200...s_voters.shtml
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_266695.html
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/pp/04296/399788.stm

Obviously a bunch of "hysteria" on the subject of disenfranchised
voters. Probably propagated by the Liberal Media.

"Nate Perkins"

"Fletis Humplebacker"

...
may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised
voters" hysteria.
...


Obviously a bunch of "hysteria" on the subject of disenfranchised
voters. Probably propagated by the Liberal Media.


Here's the part you missed, the first sentence:
"Citing a new list of more than 37,000 questionable addresses..."
Only legal votes should be counted, do you have a problem
with that? What does that have to do with disenfranchising millions
of legal voters?

Same old liberal tactics, smear, obfiscate, accuse, etc...
Whatever it takes to whip up emotional support.

On 1 Nov 2004 05:38:52 -0800, (Nate Perkins) wrote:

"Fletis Humplebacker" ! wrote in message ...

...
may siphon off is as low as it gets. This after all the "disenfranchised
voters" hysteria.
...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/o...p?format=print

Horror of horrors! Demanding that registered voters actually identify
themselves as to who they are! Whoever heard of such a thing? Sounds more
like a reason to suspect extensive voter fraud during this election.
Quoting, "The initial GOP challenge, which was dismissed 3-0 by the city
Election Commission last week, cited thousands of cases where no voter
address exists, such as vacant lots and, in one case, a gyros stand." ...
and you are screaming about disenfranchisement? I'm stunned that the city
election commission is not concerned about the fact that "registered
voters" can't provide a legitimate address. OK, well I'm not, after all,
the city election commission is probably highly supportive of fraud as long
as it promotes their candidate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/3956129.stm

So it's OK for fraudulent voting to occur; heaven forbid anyone slow down
the process.


http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/22/Pa...f_warns_.shtml

This one I'll grant should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/16/Hi...ctions_c.shtml

????? Where's the partisanship or disenfranchisement here? Or are you
saying that Democrats are just less able to figure out things than others?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct25.html

Not registering with WP

http://www.daytondailynews.com/local...026voting.html

Bad link
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaind...9734214610.xml

Fail to see how making sure that the voter's rolls are correct is
disenfranchisement. I know it makes it harder to commit voter fraud, but
taking inactive voters off the rolls (it takes 8 years!?) doesn't seem to
be disenfranchisement. If those people show up, they do get to cast a
provisional ballot -- it just means that they have to prove who they are
and that they are not somebody voting for one of those "inactive" voters.


http://www.dispatch.com/election/ele...022-A1-00.html

Prosecutable fraud.

http://www.cincypost.com/2004/10/18/absen101804.html
http://www.cincypost.com/2004/10/18/absen101804.html

Frankly, if they didn't notice Kerry's name was missing, they ought not
be voting anyway. Doubling up links here to give sheer weight in numbers?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6346293/

Yeah, the USPS is firmly in Bush's camp. Sheesh. Part of the remainder
of the story is about Democrats intimidating Republicans to keep them from
voting. If one can show that they are who they say they are, why would
being asked to produce identification prior to voting be considered to be
suppression?

http://www.stpetersburgtimes.com/200...s_voters.shtml

Maybe those are the areas in which they are most concerned about voter
fraud? Dems are welcome to watch the polls in the other precincts --- they
don't seem to be worried about fraud on that end. Hmmm.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_266695.html

So they didn't read the petition before signing it? ... and they vote?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/pp/04296/399788.stm

Bad link


Most of your links seem to be concerned with preventing the very real
possiblity of voter fraud. The actions of ACORN and other activists
certainly seem to point to the potential for attempted voter fraud; the
pride of the mayor of Pittsburg who stated that in the last election, every
registered voter cast a ballot; the University of Wisconsin students who
admitted in 2000 to casting multiple ballots, the abnormally high amount of
returned mail from registered voter addresses in many precincts make this
more than a hypothetical thought exercise or kook conspiracy theory. It's
one thing to lose an election, it's another to lose it due to fraudulent
voting.


Obviously a bunch of "hysteria" on the subject of disenfranchised
voters. Probably propagated by the Liberal Media.

John, I've read a lot of good stuff from you. Disappointed in this.


• No individual, party or ideology has cornered the market on truth or
God's blessing.

Couldn't agree with you more. You sure God's taking a personal interest
in current activities or allowing us to feel our way and find the truth
on our own?


• Dying soldiers in all countries call for their mothers with their
last breath.

• Any child killed by war, poverty, abuse or neglect is one too many.

We're all children of mothers who loved us. Any sacrifice for an ideal
unwarranted?

• Fear is our worst enemy. Those who would scare us are not our friends.

Sounds like "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" We've all come to
admire that sentiment.

• 9/11 was a tragic event. But everything did not change. The sad fact
is, too much has remained the same, or gotten worse.

• Killing innocents in any war dishonors those who died on 9/11.

That's idealistic bull ****. We killed a bunch of innocent Japanese in
order to end WWII. We didn't start that war. There would have been
more deaths on both sides had we invaded the Japanese mainland.
Innocents slaughtered were regrettable but justified. Same will be true
in the future. I hate it, but there it is. what about innocents on the
aircraft or in the World Trade Towers?

• Those most distant from a conflict are always the ones shouting
loudest for war.

Naw, left wing crybabies are so far from the war, your statement proves
untrue. I spent 20 some years active duty in the US Army. None of us
looked forward to war. We did realize that it might be necessary in our
national interest and we were willing to die in the effort. "He who
stands for nothing will swallow anything." So much for respect for all
opinions.

• War is almost always a tragic detour from the more difficult road of
peace.

Replace the work tragic with necessary.


• Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional
right to free speech is not a patriot. In a true democracy, all points
of view are valued and heard.

All points of view are heard. Some are of no value whatsoever.


• Love is the core value of the Islamic, Christian and Jewish faiths.
Only love and understanding can bring the peace and security all good
people of the world desire.

Read me a whole bunch of material where "Love" is a major part of the
Islamic faith. I have muslim friends who give me this line. In
politeness, I don't throw it back at them without backup. After a lot
of reading since 9/11 I'm becoming doubtful. Is this true? Where has
all this "kill the infidels" stuff been sidetracked?

Every vote counts, and every vote should be counted.

[written by Stuart S. Light in the LA Times, Oct 30, 2004]

Feel free to comment, but as always, without using words like liberal,
left, right, or wing.
mahalo,
jo4hn

Robert Galloway responds:

€¢ Killing innocents in any war dishonors those who died on 9/11.

That's idealistic bull ****. We killed a bunch of innocent Japanese in
order to end WWII. We didn't start that war. There would have been
more deaths on both sides had we invaded the Japanese mainland.
Innocents slaughtered were regrettable but justified. Same will be true
in the future. I hate it, but there it is. what about innocents on the
aircraft or in the World Trade Towers?

That one gives me a headache. The rationale for the atom bombs was, and is,
excellent, no matter what the revisionists say today or tomorrow, but how does
that relate to the innocents in the aircraft or the World Trade Towers? That's
a non sequitur.

€¢ Those most distant from a conflict are always the ones shouting
loudest for war.

Naw, left wing crybabies are so far from the war, your statement proves
untrue. I spent 20 some years active duty in the US Army. None of us
looked forward to war. We did realize that it might be necessary in our
national interest and we were willing to die in the effort. "He who
stands for nothing will swallow anything." So much for respect for all
opinions.

You do love your non sequiturs.

€¢ War is almost always a tragic detour from the more difficult road of
peace.

Replace the work tragic with necessary.

In your opinion. Which, in my opinion, is incorrect.

€¢ Anyone who impugns your patriotism for exercising your constitutional
right to free speech is not a patriot. In a true democracy, all points
of view are valued and heard.

All points of view are heard. Some are of no value whatsoever.

Again, in your opinion. Which, in my view, is still incorrect. And, I seem to
recall, no one among us has been set up as supreme arbiter, so it's a bit of a
tie as to whose POV is of no value whatsoever.

Charlie Self
"Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a
pleasure." Ambrose Bierce