Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

In article wCW6d.3050$gm.800@okepread07, "RonB"
wrote:


Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years cannot
be called cheap.


Closest to 10 years back I could come up with is the Nov./Dec. 1992
issue of Fine Woodworking. There's a Tool Crib ad for a 3hp Unisaw with
Biesmeyer fence for $1629 *after* a $100 rebate. (page 24) My current
Tool Crib catalog lists today's comparable Unisaw at $1850.

Hardly double and really surprising given the 12 year span.

Or are they really cutting costs and sacrificing quality to keep the
cost down?
mahalo,
jo4hn

Leon writes:

Where you live, AC is probably not so important.

S. Central VA is not exactly the frigid north in June, July, August and well
into September.

I recall back in the 70's GM had the old Frigidaire A6 Axial compressors.
IIRC Continental used these compressors also. They were long and narrow and
could be easily rebuilt. Now days that stuff is so cheap it is cheaper to
replace than to repair. It becomes a vicious cycle.

I gave up when the 'new' Freon came online and it was going to cost me some big
bugs to replace the compressor and refill the system. I forget how much now,
but that $140 compressor was way, way under a third of what the refill was
going to cost.

I'm too cheap for that. I'd far rather sweat.

Charlie Self
"Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

That is only true to a point. The trick to marketing these days is, "yes,
are stuff is crap but the competition is worse". You can buy the best
available but what is available may well be crap.
Same with politicians. "yes, I'm a sleazeball but my competition is worse".
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"RonB" wrote in message

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.

That's a given ... but apparently the cheap ****s who will continue to buy
them don't either.

It's called the "WalMart/BORG Factor" ... sell cheap **** to cheap ****s.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

Bingo!

"Charlie Self" wrote in message I do not know
what the answer is, but it may have something to do with longer
term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is
better
known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time
because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty.
Today,
the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90
days.
Long term planning is done for this time next year.

jo4hn wrote:
Or are they really cutting costs and sacrificing quality to keep the
cost down?


Not Owen but I personally think they've been subsidizing the
Unisaw with the sale of other machines. Like Owen I can go
back through past issues of magazines and find the full page
machinery/tool seller's ads and track back a "sameish" price
for at least ten years and maybe more.

As for sacrificing quality, yes the Unisaw has changed but
it's been things like the morphing of the dust door until
there was finally none, the changing of lock knobs from die
cast with a chrome finish to plastic (plastique David) and
of course the greatest crime of all the elimination of the
cast iron plinth.

sigh...

As for the innards, there have been changes but nothing of
the magnitude that allows for an easy explanation of why the
saw hasn't kept up with the rate of inflation.

Now, there have been instances of bad quality control but
that seems to be hit or miss. In other words, you can still
buy a good Unisaw.

If anything the real change with the Unisaw has been it just
ain't as classy as it once was.

UA100

Swingman,

There's more ...and that is the sad part

"Sell cheap **** to cheap ****s....who like cheap ****"


RW


"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"RonB" wrote in message

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.

That's a given ... but apparently the cheap ****s who will continue to buy
them don't either.

It's called the "WalMart/BORG Factor" ... sell cheap **** to cheap ****s.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04




---
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"Ray White" wrote in message
...
Swingman,

There's more ...and that is the sad part

"Sell cheap **** to cheap ****s....who like cheap ****"

Well hell ... I sorta thought it you were a cheap ****, that went with the
territory.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

My 95 Ram 1500 has almost 170,000 miles on it. It still has the original engine
(doesn't use oil) and, original transmission (nice and tight). The only
problems are that the head liner is starting to sag and the paint is flaking off
on one fender.

Grant



Leon wrote:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.

My nephew bought his first new vehicle, a Dodge PU about 7 years ago. He
had to replace it and chose Dodge again. That one lasted about 2 years.
Replaced it with another Dodge. 18 months later he had to replace that one.
GMC this time. Other than regular eminence he has not had any problems in
80,000 + miles pulling a fifth wheel with a Bobcat loaded on it a lot of the
time.
Strongly, My wife works with a lady that owns a Dodge PU. Used light duty.
This is their third and they have had AC problems with all three. She said
no more.

Yes, we know that everyone (besides CEOs. of course) should work for 3 cents
per hour with no benefits.
"Eric Johnson" wrote in message
...

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked
a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks
have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting
that
came out of a hardware bin.
So did the knurled ones, problem is that they are paying somebody $20 an
hour to pull 'em outta the bin. Then that $20 somebody thinks the employer
owes them $12,000
worth of insurance to cover him, his spouse and every other blood relative
just because he's a trained knob installer. And now our insured $20 knob
installer gets a sliver skateboarding over the weekend, bides his pain
till
he gets to work on Monday reports for workmans comp because those knurls
got
slivers in the bin. Now knob installer is off for the next 3 months
protected by the FMLA so the employer can't even replace him to keep
production up but still collecting some kind of compensation for no work.
Then Billybob & associates runs across Knob installers name in the
insurance
records and convinces him to sue the employer for an exorbitant amount of
money for "compensation". Employer knows better than to argue with the
insurance company recalling the same insurance company handled the "Miss
Offended" case in the broke her nail office scandle of '02. Ponies up the
cash and takes another shot on the chin. Just as he sits down thinking
he's
past this and may be able to keep the doors open one more month sits down
to
read the notice from those OSHA folks about the knurled knob saftey
factor.......


Sigh
EJ

Interesting you should use that comparison. Volvos today are an
excellent example of cost engineering (they're also overpriced crap).
Volvo is living off the reputation they made 20+ years ago with the
240 series (and I wish I still had mine).

John

Agreed. But I was talking about what happened in the industry 20 - 30 years
ago. Our scorecard since that time frame is.

- '72 Vega GT - Spent 4 of its 18 months in the shop having engine parts and
rear ends replaced. Developed bad habit of loosing power or dying when you
pulled out from an intersection - bad with semi's approaching.

-'74 Cutlass Supreme - Started rusting three months after delivery. Two
trips to the dealers body shop then we all threw up our hands. When traded
three years later the trunk latch was held in place with bondo and rivets.
(we do NOT live in a high salt area). Also replaced two water pumps and
then rear wire harness so tail lights would go out.

- '74 Volvo 145 Wagon. Purchased with 40,000 miles and drove it to 170,000
miles. Replaced one fuel pump and odometer module. Experienced HEAVY
impact from rear that destroyed our camping trailer and pushed part of it
through rear window. Minimal body damage. Ranger that worked accident said
"thank your stars you were in a Volvo."

- '80 Volvo 245. Purchased with about 45,000 miles. Drove four years with
no repairs.

- '82 Volvo diesel - POS

- 86 Chevy Blazer - Bought new, drove 10 years/150,000 miles. Replaced
steering sector, two radiators, two water pumps. Overall pretty good since
it towed quite a bit.

- 87 Honda - Purchased at about 50,000 miles. Drove to 150,000 miles. One
fuel pump, one alternator

- 97 Chevy Pickup - Bought new, drove 80,000 miles. Two ring and pinion
sets, One complete rear axle, Removed environmental ducts to clean out
manufacturing debris that disabled the system. Replaced heater inlet
plumbing at head requiring removal of head on one side. One water pump.

- '02 Chevy 2500HD, 8.1L, Allison - 43,000 so far. Replaced drive shaft.
Replaced rear transmission seal. When oil consumption dropped to 850
miles/qt Chevy finally owned up to a service bulletin that replaced head
gaskets and bolts to fix (?) a known oil consumption problem. Experience
"piston slap" noise on startup (brother in law thought it was a diesel) that
GM refuses to recognize as a problem.

- '99 Toyota Camry, 95,000 miles so far, no repairs - just maintenance.


Sad to say, with the exception of the diesel volvo, off-shore products win.

"Ray White" wrote in message
...
Swingman,

There's more ...and that is the sad part

"Sell cheap **** to cheap ****s....who like cheap ****"

Hey, leave my mother-in-law out of this!

"RonB" wrote in message
news:tpi7d.3769$gm.2452@okepread07...

Sad to say, with the exception of the diesel volvo, off-shore products
win.



I agree in the 70's and part of the 80's, but I've had more recent
experience otherwise. Aside from normal things like brakes, tires and oil
changes.

86 Mercedes 135K Water pump, cooling fan, cruise control module ($450),
alternator, fuel injectors, cruise control again, rear bumper fell off
(honest, it is glued on), wheel bearing, radio.Cooling fan sensor, and
probably more. IIRC, the air cleaner element was about $45.
91 Regal 135K Water pump. front struts (still use it, maybe 2 more years)
97 Le Sabre 90K NO repairs (traded for the 01)
01 Le Sabre 88K NO repairs (plan to keep it 6 or more years yet)

In '67 I bought a new Fairlane GT convert. Between '67 and '69, the dealer replaced every part in/on the engine,
transmission and the differential along with most of the interior. They had it more than I did.
Swapped to GM until I bought a new '99 F150 Lariat extended cab..5.4 V8-auto-PS-PB-air-leather and all the goodies. In order
to get it off the lot, they had to replace the power steering pump, then in the next 30K miles,they caulked then replaced
the windshield, replaced the back window (twice), the side indicator mirror, the steering wheel and I had to replace the
brakes and tires. All this and only getting 17 MPG on the road. I got rid of that POS at 30K because the dealer couldn't
diagnose the transmission failing.
Currently I have 2 Suzuki Grand Vitara, 1 with 60K and the other with 30K. No complaints with either.
R. Wink




On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:06:30 -0700, Doug Winterburn wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:25:34 -0500, Swingman wrote:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.

I've got an '01 Dodge 1500 RAM extended cab ... even though it has an
excess of plastic on it, and is not that highly rated by consumer
advocates from what I can gather, the only other pick-up I've liked as
much was a 3/4 ton GMC I bought new in '78.

AAMOF, my wife would rather travel in it than in her Camry ... so long as
she doesn't have to pay for the gas.

Had an spanking new '83 F150 with the 4.9L inline 6. It got 22-23 MPG on
the highway. Drove it 177,000 miles in 15 years. Had one rear axle seal
replaced and a clutch in all that time. Never had to add oil between
changes and it alway passed the emissions tests with flying colors. I'd
still be driving it if it hadn't been stolen outa my driveway. Replaced
it with a used '87 F150 5.0L V8 with 112,000 on it. Now has about
150,000, with only front brakes replaced. This one only gets about 15 MPG :-(

-Doug

I would go one better...money talks, businesses listen...when money
walks, businesses really listen.

The next time you choose Brand X over Delta (as in table saws), take
the time and write a letter to Delta and enclose a copy of your
invoice showing the purchase of the competitor's saw. Explain why you
chose the competitor's saw over Delta's offering. Be specific. Address
the letter to the CEO of Delta and include your phone number. Don't be
surprised when you get a call asking for more information. Bean
counters who continue to cause lost sales don't stay counting beans
very long.

In other words, companies will give you what you are willing to pay
for. If you are only willing to pay for garbage then you will get
that. If you want quality workmanship and materials, then make your
voice heard and back it up with your wallet.

And if you were wondering, most all my tools are older American iron.
I can afford to buy new tools but the quality is not there and has not
been for some time. I have personally inspected hundreds of table
saws, bandsaws, drills, jointers, etc. side by side and almost without
exception I will buy older iron because it was designed and built so
much better.

TMT





Rick Cook wrote in message ...
RonB wrote:

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
suffering -- and the price continues to go up.

Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?

It's probably worth writing nasty letters to the company. The bean counters get
away with this nonsense primarily because they convince the PHBs in management
that no one notices. I'd be willing to bet there are people inside the company
that would love to have angry letters from customers as confirmation that
people DO notice -- and care.

--RC

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:05:36 -0500, "RonB" wrote:

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
suffering -- and the price continues to go up.

Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?



It's sad. I see all kinds of cost-cutting efforts that sacrifice
quality but Americans love cheap. I bought a Starrett Wade square
last month for $165 (with compass and center finder), yet I know
WalMart has the same thing for $12.95.

I have made all kinds of knobs from scraps of hardwood, make a hex
hole into them, then epoxy a nut into the hold. Makes it much easier
to tighten/loosen.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
It's sad. I see all kinds of cost-cutting efforts that sacrifice
quality but Americans love cheap. I bought a Starrett Wade square
last month for $165 (with compass and center finder), yet I know
WalMart has the same thing for $12.95.

Starrett Wade? I know of Starrett and Garret-Wade.

The Wal*Mart job is probably OK for some work, but usually won't be as
accurate, as easy to read, as smooth operating. Depends on how much you
value that.

In article , wrote:

It's sad. I see all kinds of cost-cutting efforts that sacrifice
quality but Americans love cheap. I bought a Starrett Wade square
last month for $165 (with compass and center finder), yet I know
WalMart has the same thing for $12.95.

No, they don't. They might have something similar at that price, and less
accurate (probably much less), but it won't be "the same thing" as a Starrett
(assuming that's what you meant by "Starrett Wade").

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Phisherman wrote:
It's sad. I see all kinds of cost-cutting efforts that sacrifice
quality but Americans love cheap. I bought a Starrett Wade square
last month for $165 (with compass and center finder), yet I know
WalMart has the same thing for $12.95.

Wally World may have squares, perhaps even with both compass and
centerfinder, but I doubt it. They assuredly do not have
Starretts, nor do they havew the acuracy, precision or smoothness
of operation. Quality always costs more, and nothing but quality
will do in certain circumstances. The cheap knock-off may be
accurate if you are lucky, when you first get it it, but it will
lack precision, and over time, lose its accuracy. It will always
feel clunky.

Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:26:00 -0400, Renata wrote:
Toyota Tundra doesn't fit your needs?


Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"

I need it about once a month, but when I need it, I REALLY need it.

Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"



My Chevy 2500HD, 8.1L Shortbed won't hold a 4x8sheet with the tailgate
closed. It will pull a 33', 12,000 pound 5th wheel trailer with a 2,000
pound pin weight over a 10,000 ft mountain pass in 2nd or 3rd gear at 55
MPH. It also barely squats with topsoil heaped over the wheel wells.

It isn't a family car!

RonB wrote:
Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"


My Chevy 2500HD, 8.1L Shortbed won't hold a 4x8sheet with the tailgate
closed. It will pull a 33', 12,000 pound 5th wheel trailer with a 2,000
pound pin weight over a 10,000 ft mountain pass in 2nd or 3rd gear at 55
MPH. It also barely squats with topsoil heaped over the wheel wells.

It isn't a family car!

My friends range rover can carry a full size 8x4 sheet inboard with the
tailgate shut, and is used as a family car: http://www.rangie.com/

"RonB" wrote in message
news:2llad.2719$EZ.2312@okepread07...
Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"



My Chevy 2500HD, 8.1L Shortbed won't hold a 4x8sheet with the tailgate
closed. It will pull a 33', 12,000 pound 5th wheel trailer with a 2,000
pound pin weight over a 10,000 ft mountain pass in 2nd or 3rd gear at 55
MPH. It also barely squats with topsoil heaped over the wheel wells.

It isn't a family car!

Sounds like a nice truck except ~8 MPG yet can't haul plywood with the
tailgate up or a 14 foot board.

Reminds me some men I've heard of. All bulk but come up SHORT on the
business end. teehee

Gary

I was in the same situation about 8 months ago. I knew I would be needing a truck, to haul stuff, general working etc.
Found a used (1986) F150 straight six with a good bed and liner - $700.00. Not the best in looks, but I really don't
care what the snobs in the neighborhood think. I use mine all the time to haul stuff to the dump, bring lumber home,
pull a trailer, etc. I tell the daughters that this is the best vehicle I own because it runs, works hard and is paid for.

JAW


U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles wrote:
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:26:00 -0400, Renata wrote:

Toyota Tundra doesn't fit your needs?



Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"

I need it about once a month, but when I need it, I REALLY need it.

RonB wrote:
I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
suffering -- and the price continues to go up.

Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?


Buy a General 650 while you still can. Only some minor 'cost
reductions' evident. I bet they lose $$ on each one.