I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
suffering -- and the price continues to go up.

Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?

"RonB" wrote in message

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.

That's a given ... but apparently the cheap ****s who will continue to buy
them don't either.

It's called the "WalMart/BORG Factor" ... sell cheap **** to cheap ****s.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"RonB" wrote in news:i9W6d.3048$gm.2423@okepread07:

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just
unpacked a new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled
handwheel locks have now been replaced with some kind of wing nut.
They look like someting that came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.

They get it, but they just don't care. As far as I can see, this is common
to most companies in existence -- they start out with a good product, and
it gets "value engineered" into the ground, all in the name of improving
profit. This eventually drives the company out of business, since new
companies can now start up with higher quality products, and without the
tainted name.

It's very sad.

Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years cannot
be called cheap.

"RonB" wrote in message
news:wCW6d.3050$gm.800@okepread07...
Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years
cannot
be called cheap.


Cheap, yes. Inexpensive, no.

"Murray Peterson" wrote in message

They get it, but they just don't care.

That too ... but it's even deeper than that with regard to "they just don't
care". AAMOF, just exactly who is it that "doesn't care"?

Widget A is a well made, long lasting, high quality product with a fair
price tag. Widget B is a cheap, low quality rip off of Widget A, but priced
low enough that more and more folks who either "don't care", or "don't know
better", will buy Widget B.

Can you fault a company trying to survive by moving toward Widget B "price
point engineering", since that is what is selling?

The point: the consumer makes the choices ... if there are none left, it's
very often his own damn fault.

tainted name.

Ahh ... you hit the sticky wicket with the crux of the mallet head.

In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).

Defense: Buy used!

It's very sad.

You're right about that!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Ahh ... you hit the sticky wicket with the crux of the mallet head.

In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say the Unisaw is inferior........ yet.

When I started looking for a machine to update my old contractor's saw a few
years ago I was pretty much predisposed to the Unisaw. I had used them in a
college cabinet class during the mid 70's and had fond memories. A friend
also had an older Delta. When I started actually shopping my first
disappointment was what had become of the Unisaw. I ended up buying a
Grizzly 1023S. It still has some of what Delta had.

RonB said:

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
suffering -- and the price continues to go up.

Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?

Bean Counters, Lawyers, and Boards of Directors are destroying the
world!


Greg G.

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks
have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting
that
came out of a hardware bin.
So did the knurled ones, problem is that they are paying somebody $20 an
hour to pull 'em outta the bin. Then that $20 somebody thinks the employer
owes them $12,000
worth of insurance to cover him, his spouse and every other blood relative
just because he's a trained knob installer. And now our insured $20 knob
installer gets a sliver skateboarding over the weekend, bides his pain till
he gets to work on Monday reports for workmans comp because those knurls got
slivers in the bin. Now knob installer is off for the next 3 months
protected by the FMLA so the employer can't even replace him to keep
production up but still collecting some kind of compensation for no work.
Then Billybob & associates runs across Knob installers name in the insurance
records and convinces him to sue the employer for an exorbitant amount of
money for "compensation". Employer knows better than to argue with the
insurance company recalling the same insurance company handled the "Miss
Offended" case in the broke her nail office scandle of '02. Ponies up the
cash and takes another shot on the chin. Just as he sits down thinking he's
past this and may be able to keep the doors open one more month sits down to
read the notice from those OSHA folks about the knurled knob saftey
factor.......


Sigh
EJ

Swingman notes:

In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).

Defense: Buy used!

It's very sad.

You're right about that!

The biggest problem with that defense is that at some point, sooner rather than
later IME, you're buying used in the cheap **** category, and we're all a lot
worse off.

I do not know what the answer is, but it may have something to do with longer
term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is better
known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time
because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty. Today,
the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90 days.
Long term planning is done for this time next year.

Pfui.

Charlie Self
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the
well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and
vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:33:01 GMT, Murray Peterson
wrote:


They get it, but they just don't care.

Or they see it as a calculated risk. Cheapen here, cheapen there and
see what the market reaction is. They can always put them back, slap
on a new logo and whip up a marketing campaign.

Latest Pop Woodworking has an aside talking about impending cost
increases. Manufacturers know they can't always pass them on, or pass
them on immediately - they must do it carefully. Cheapen the knobs
might be a way, in a bean-counters eyes.

With any luck - there are a number of peer groups in an organization
to keep the accountants in check. Just like the accountants nix ideas
like titanium wheels with diamond studs.

As far as I can see, this is common
to most companies in existence -- they start out with a good product, and
it gets "value engineered" into the ground, all in the name of improving
profit. This eventually drives the company out of business, since new
companies can now start up with higher quality products, and without the
tainted name.

Or - they get smart and try to course correct before Chapter 11/7.

It's very sad.

It's the natural cycle. I'm OK with it. Suppose I'm capable of
running a small shop that manufactures Router Bits. When Whiteside,
CMT, Freud and Amana give me an opening - I'll take it.

It's an opportunity!

Murray Peterson writes:

"RonB" wrote in news:i9W6d.3048$gm.2423@okepread07:

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just
unpacked a new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled
handwheel locks have now been replaced with some kind of wing nut.
They look like someting that came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.

They get it, but they just don't care. As far as I can see, this is common
to most companies in existence -- they start out with a good product, and
it gets "value engineered" into the ground, all in the name of improving
profit. This eventually drives the company out of business, since new
companies can now start up with higher quality products, and without the
tainted name.

This is the typical product of what is euphemistically called "free
market", but in reality is a greed-driven chaos: What to produce is
not determined by the need for the product but by its marketability,
which can be easily seen by the huge profits made with such utterly
useles crap like ringing tones for portable phones, drugs or SUVs.


It's very sad.

It will kill all of us, sooner or later...

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the levels
the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new Olds
Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer
could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.

Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
product.

"Juergen Hannappel" wrote in message

What to produce is
not determined by the need for the product but by its marketability,
which can be easily seen by the huge profits made with such utterly
useles crap like ringing tones for portable phones, drugs or SUVs.

LOL ... except for my implied "we get what we deserve", that's pretty much
what I was getting at. ;)


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"RonB" wrote in message

Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the
levels
the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new Olds
Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer
could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.

Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
product.

Good points ... but I am still wondering at how easy it is to sell the a
gullible consumer the SAME car, made by the same company in the same
factory, by just changing its name and almost doubling the price??

Lexus, a rose by any other name smells just... like a Toyota?

I can only surmise that the marketing folks are convinced they are dealing
with a bunch of fools ... and they seem to be vindicated thus far in that
belief.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Swingman notes:

In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).

Defense: Buy used!

It's very sad.

You're right about that!

The biggest problem with that defense is that at some point, sooner rather
than
later IME, you're buying used in the cheap **** category, and we're all a
lot
worse off.

I do not know what the answer is, but it may have something to do with
longer
term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is
better
known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time
because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty.
Today,
the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90
days.
Long term planning is done for this time next year.

An example is the Jayco line of RVs. founding family brought in a new
management team about 8 years ago that lowered quality on which the company
was built and prided itself, ****ed off the work force andembarassed the
dealers. The family resumed control and has spent 5 years or so trying to
regain the company's reputation.

I fear that won't happen with Delta, a publicly traded company. What may
very well happen is that the Chinese, who learn very fast and have modern
production facilities and a motivated work force, will produce tools for an
expanded marketplace. Chinese demand for cars is already partly responsible
for the increase in gas prices worldwide. According to Paul Leinert, a very
experienced auto writer in the latest Automobile magazine, "the market (in
China) is expected to double by 2012, then double again before 2020, to 16
million cars a year, about the current size of the U.S. market." After that,
China will be the largest market for cars in the world.

The implication is that growing affluence will satisfy a huge demand. That
affluence will come in part from China's plan to become the world's machine
shop. Watch for some very interesting competition.

Bob

"RonB" wrote in message
news:chY6d.3150$gm.3106@okepread07...


Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again.

I do not think that they are good now, perhaps better but still as a hole
pale compared to the Japaneese cars. I bought my last American car in 1983.
My dad bought his last American car in 1997. My sister and brother in law
still buy American and still have the silly probllems. Their latest Crown
Victoria 2001 model has the stigma of possibly blowing up if hit from behind
and they had to replace the tires at 18,000 miles. It has 22,000 miles on
it and they get it realigned every 5,000 miles. They had a 1994 Ford
Contour before that and it would stall all the time. They traded it with
45,000 miles on it. Before that a 1990 Mustang that ate starters,
flysheels, and starter soleniods.
I will say that American Ford and GM trucks are pretty good.

Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and
Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
product.

Precisely. Up until 10 years ago I was in Automotive management and was in
that field from the time I was in school. Having been a service sales
manager for a large Oldsmobile dealer in Houston, I can attest that
Oldsmobile got what it deserved. From there I was hired as the GM of an AC
Delco whole distributor. We sold only to GM dealers in East Texas. We
literally sold thousands of alternators, AC compressors, and starters
monthly. I just bought a 2004 Honda Accord EX but looked at the top end
Saturns. The Saturns were $3000 cheaper for the same equipment and trim
level as the Accord. All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to
realize it was that much better.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to
realize it was that much better.


A foot note to my comments. I do not doubt for a second that Americans can
build great cars. The Accords are American built, but the engineering is
Japanese.

RonB wrote:

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
suffering -- and the price continues to go up.

Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?

It's probably worth writing nasty letters to the company. The bean counters get
away with this nonsense primarily because they convince the PHBs in management
that no one notices. I'd be willing to bet there are people inside the company
that would love to have angry letters from customers as confirmation that
people DO notice -- and care.

--RC

RonB wrote:

Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the levels
the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new Olds
Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer
could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.

Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
product.

The same thing happened in the semiconductor equipment industry in the early
90s. The Japanese started to clobber us in their typical Japanese fashion,
American (and European) companies woke up, made major changes, and won back
market share.
So it can be done.

Whether it will be done with home equipment is another question. Singer used to
make the best sewing machines in the world, hands down. Then 'value
engineering' set in and they ended up pushing crap made in Brazil. My wife, the
expert, won't touch a new Singer, but she still dreams about finding one of the
classic ones at a price she can afford.

One thing that will help is if the discerning customers (like the members of
this newsgroup) make their opinions heard long and loud at the companies. It's
not a cure but it's better than just taking it until we move to stuff from
other companies.

--RC

Swingman wrote:
[snip]
Lexus, a rose by any other name smells just... like a Toyota?

I can only surmise that the marketing folks are convinced they are dealing
with a bunch of fools ... and they seem to be vindicated thus far in that
belief.

One starts with the Camry, add on lots of electronic gadgets and
sound/video systems, fancier upholstery and paint, maybe a little bit of
sheet metal, a new badge, and voila, a Lexus. If you want all that
extra stuff, go for it. I own a Camry and love it.

mahalo,
jo4hn

Leon wrote:

[snip]The Saturns were $3000 cheaper for the same equipment and trim
level as the Accord. All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to
realize it was that much better.

We did that with the Taurus. Bought the Toyota Camry.
j4

In article wCW6d.3050$gm.800@okepread07, "RonB"
wrote:

Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years cannot
be called cheap.

Closest to 10 years back I could come up with is the Nov./Dec. 1992
issue of Fine Woodworking. There's a Tool Crib ad for a 3hp Unisaw with
Biesmeyer fence for $1629 *after* a $100 rebate. (page 24) My current
Tool Crib catalog lists today's comparable Unisaw at $1850.

Hardly double and really surprising given the 12 year span.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company

"RonB" wrote in news:chY6d.3150$gm.3106@okepread07:

Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim.

Interesting you should use that comparison. Volvos today are an
excellent example of cost engineering (they're also overpriced crap).
Volvo is living off the reputation they made 20+ years ago with the
240 series (and I wish I still had mine).

John

jo4hn responds:

Lexus, a rose by any other name smells just... like a Toyota?

I can only surmise that the marketing folks are convinced they are dealing
with a bunch of fools ... and they seem to be vindicated thus far in that
belief.

One starts with the Camry, add on lots of electronic gadgets and
sound/video systems, fancier upholstery and paint, maybe a little bit of
sheet metal, a new badge, and voila, a Lexus. If you want all that
extra stuff, go for it. I own a Camry and love

And I am convinced the U.S. manufacturers, at least the German owned one, are
returning to the '70s. I bought a new Dodge Stratus in 2000. POS is a polite
word and ****head is a polite description of the dealer. All smiles, no help.
It's a real joy to discover that a high speed whistle--60 mph up--is a fact of
life, something to do the with the transmission, and cannot be corrected.
Surging on fill-up? They can't replicate the problem. Why? They didn't fill the
car up, even though I five times told them I'd pop for the gas. Thieves in the
garage? My wife has a bad habit of leaving cash for gas and tolls in the
console. First clip was $17. Driver's door is now out of alignment, sometimes
has to be shouldered heavily out of the way. My wife gets to climb over the
console when it happens. I ain't climbing no damned console to get out of an
unwrecked vehicle, so it opens. Oddly enough, it then works fine for six or
seven months. Passenger rear door, seldom used (dog normally rides on that
side, so we let her in and out from the outside), won't open from the inside.

And the beat goes on.

My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.

Charlie Self
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the
well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and
vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams

otforme (Charlie Self) writes:
Swingman notes:

In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).

Defense: Buy used!

It's very sad.

You're right about that!

The biggest problem with that defense is that at some point, sooner rather than
later IME, you're buying used in the cheap **** category, and we're all a lot
worse off.

I do not know what the answer is, but it may have something to do with longer
term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is better
known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time
because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty. Today,
the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90 days.
Long term planning is done for this time next year.


Let's take an example near and dear to our hearts. The Stanley Works.

Plane quality became lower and lower as Stanley pushed into the mass
market. Many lines discontinued. Finally stopped domestic production
entirely with only a limited product line continued from England.

Still a market for quality planes, so some time later a small
start-up (L-N) began to fill the niche. Now there is competition
in the niche with LV also producing quality planes (and undercutting
the price of the L-N).

If Delta does go the way of Stanley, someone else will
step up to fill the niche (Powermatic, General, HotdogSuperSawsLtdIncLLP.).

And there are the international alternatives[*] (clifton, ece, et. al.)

scott
[*] Yes, LV is also an 'international alternative'.

Sniped to make a point

Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again.

I will say that American Ford and GM trucks are pretty good.

Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and
Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
product.

I just bought a 2004 Honda Accord EX but looked at the top end Saturns.
The Saturns were $3000 cheaper for the same equipment and trim level as
the Accord. All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to realize
it was that much better.


Leon, I too work in the automotive industry. Our company operates Honda,
Acura, Chevrolet and Saturn dealerships.

Bad cars (and other products) are made by all companies. Hondas blew
headgaskets like crazy, Saturns were noisy and ate alternators and
batteries, Acura transmissions were junk and so on and so on. What matters
to me is how the manufacturer handled the problems. Honda/Acura stepped up
and fixed all of them - no questions. Saturn fixed their issues with a
little pushing, Chevrolet relies on the dealer to decide if they should help
and to what extent.

Bad companies are the ones that die. Good companies, step up and take care
of issues and subsequently improve their products. That is until they are
swallowed-up by larger companies.

Woodworkers are in somewhat a different class. They buy cheap crap all the
time and justify it by saying "It works OK for me" or "I don't use one
enough to warrant a quality one". I am a tool snob. Not because I love
spending tons of money, but because I want my tools to work right when I
need them. OTOH, I do own some Jet and some import Delta tools. However, I
do buy professional quality when it counts.

My (long and windy) point is, Wal-mart, Harbor Freight, Grizzly and the like
will continue to flourish because we do not want to pay for real quality and
are willing to settle for less. Quality companies like Lee Valley,
Lie-Nielsen, Leigh, Snap-On, Miller Electric, Wilton and others will also
have a market until they venture down the "cheaper is always better" road.
Are you listening Robin?

Dave

Note to Robin, I looked high and low to replace a special crowbar (that was
stolen) and now I see you have them. They are without a doubt, the best of
the best. They have no peer. You call it the renovator's bar. I searched
for the name on the bar, TOVE, and it did not show up on your site. You
should add TOVE somewhere on the page so more people might find them on your
site.

Well said.

Dave

"Rick Cook" wrote in message
...


RonB wrote:

Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the
levels
the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new
Olds
Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer
could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.

Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
product.

The same thing happened in the semiconductor equipment industry in the
early
90s. The Japanese started to clobber us in their typical Japanese fashion,
American (and European) companies woke up, made major changes, and won
back
market share.
So it can be done.

Whether it will be done with home equipment is another question. Singer
used to
make the best sewing machines in the world, hands down. Then 'value
engineering' set in and they ended up pushing crap made in Brazil. My
wife, the
expert, won't touch a new Singer, but she still dreams about finding one
of the
classic ones at a price she can afford.

One thing that will help is if the discerning customers (like the members
of
this newsgroup) make their opinions heard long and loud at the companies.
It's
not a cure but it's better than just taking it until we move to stuff from
other companies.

--RC

"jo4hn" wrote in message

I own a Camry and love it.

So does SWMBO ... one neighbor has a Lexus and you would swear you were
riding in the same car.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.

My nephew bought his first new vehicle, a Dodge PU about 7 years ago. He
had to replace it and chose Dodge again. That one lasted about 2 years.
Replaced it with another Dodge. 18 months later he had to replace that one.
GMC this time. Other than regular eminence he has not had any problems in
80,000 + miles pulling a fifth wheel with a Bobcat loaded on it a lot of the
time.
Strongly, My wife works with a lady that owns a Dodge PU. Used light duty.
This is their third and they have had AC problems with all three. She said
no more.

"TeamCasa" wrote in :

snipped
Note to Robin, I looked high and low to replace a special crowbar
(that was stolen) and now I see you have them. They are without a
doubt, the best of the best. They have no peer. You call it the
renovator's bar. I searched for the name on the bar, TOVE, and it did
not show up on your site. You should add TOVE somewhere on the page so
more people might find them on your site.

The crowbar I have works all too well, with regard to purchasing Robin's
products, thank you very much.

Patriarch

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.

I've got an '01 Dodge 1500 RAM extended cab ... even though it has an excess
of plastic on it, and is not that highly rated by consumer advocates from
what I can gather, the only other pick-up I've liked as much was a 3/4 ton
GMC I bought new in '78.

AAMOF, my wife would rather travel in it than in her Camry ... so long as
she doesn't have to pay for the gas.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"TeamCasa" wrote in message
...

Leon, I too work in the automotive industry. Our company operates Honda,
Acura, Chevrolet and Saturn dealerships.

Our sister conmanies sold Honda from the early years when you could also
sell motorcycles in the same dealership, Buick, Mazda. GMC, Isuzu and
Oldsmobile.
Having been on the receiving end of customer complaints with 4 of thise
product lines, I got the least complaints percentage wise from the Japanese
car owners.

Bad cars (and other products) are made by all companies. Hondas blew
headgaskets like crazy, Saturns were noisy and ate alternators and
batteries,

I am not familiar with Honds's blowing head gaskets but I bet it was not
anymore often than the Oldsmobile Diesel engines and the Chevrolet Vega
engines. :~)

What matters to me is how the manufacturer handled the problems.

True. I also had to deal with the Oldsmobile factory service reps. What an
arrogent bunch they were. Our dealership won service awards from Oldsmobile
and they would send us their problem customers after the other Olds dealers
failed to properly repair the cars. We would do the warranty work on those
cars and the rep would kick back the claims because we were replacing too
many parts when compared to the other 4 delaerships. Maybe we were
replacing too many parts but the cars were being properly repaired and the
customers stayed with us.

Acura transmissions were junk and so on and so on. Honda/Acura stepped up
and fixed all of them - no questions.

My wife and I had a 90 Integra automaticand put more miles on it than any
other vehicle. We replaced it simply because my wife wanted an new car 10
years later.


Saturn fixed their issues with a
little pushing, Chevrolet relies on the dealer to decide if they should
help and to what extent.

Bad companies are the ones that die. Good companies, step up and take
care of issues and subsequently improve their products. That is until
they are swallowed-up by larger companies.

Woodworkers are in somewhat a different class. They buy cheap crap all
the time and justify it by saying "It works OK for me" or "I don't use one
enough to warrant a quality one". I am a tool snob. Not because I love
spending tons of money, but because I want my tools to work right when I
need them. OTOH, I do own some Jet and some import Delta tools. However,
I do buy professional quality when it counts.

My (long and windy) point is, Wal-mart, Harbor Freight, Grizzly and the
like will continue to flourish because we do not want to pay for real
quality and are willing to settle for less. Quality companies like Lee
Valley, Lie-Nielsen, Leigh, Snap-On, Miller Electric, Wilton and others
will also have a market until they venture down the "cheaper is always
better" road. Are you listening Robin?

Dave

Note to Robin, I looked high and low to replace a special crowbar (that
was stolen) and now I see you have them. They are without a doubt, the
best of the best. They have no peer. You call it the renovator's bar. I
searched for the name on the bar, TOVE, and it did not show up on your
site. You should add TOVE somewhere on the page so more people might find
them on your site.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"RonB" wrote in message
news:chY6d.3150$gm.3106@okepread07...


Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again.

I do not think that they are good now, perhaps better but still as a hole
pale compared to the Japaneese cars. I bought my last American car in
1983.
My dad bought his last American car in 1997. My sister and brother in law
still buy American and still have the silly probllems.

I wish that somebody besides Nissan made a full size four door heavy-duty
pickup. I'm stuck with Dodge, Ford or Chevy, and the way I abuse trucks,
they don't last long. I'd buy the Nissan except that it's so gawdawful
butt-ugly it makes me ill, and would be embarrassing to drive.

Jon E

"Jon Endres, PE" t wrote in
message ...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"RonB" wrote in message
news:chY6d.3150$gm.3106@okepread07...


Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again.

I do not think that they are good now, perhaps better but still as a hole
pale compared to the Japaneese cars. I bought my last American car in
1983.
My dad bought his last American car in 1997. My sister and brother in
law
still buy American and still have the silly probllems.

I wish that somebody besides Nissan made a full size four door heavy-duty
pickup. I'm stuck with Dodge, Ford or Chevy, and the way I abuse trucks,
they don't last long. I'd buy the Nissan except that it's so gawdawful
butt-ugly it makes me ill, and would be embarrassing to drive.

After checking with four mechanics I bought the Chevy 2500HD with the diesel
engine and Allison transmission. 24,000 miles with not a single problem.

Bob

"Jon Endres, PE" t wrote in
message ...

I wish that somebody besides Nissan made a full size four door heavy-duty
pickup. I'm stuck with Dodge, Ford or Chevy, and the way I abuse trucks,
they don't last long. I'd buy the Nissan except that it's so gawdawful
butt-ugly it makes me ill, and would be embarrassing to drive.

My Nephew owns a landscape business and is very tough on his trucks. He
hauls yards of material and tractors on goose necks, not lawn equipment, and
now swears by GMC after going through 3 Dodges. IIRC the Toyota full size
is suppose to actually become full size very soon.

Leon responds:

Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.

My nephew bought his first new vehicle, a Dodge PU about 7 years ago. He
had to replace it and chose Dodge again. That one lasted about 2 years.
Replaced it with another Dodge. 18 months later he had to replace that one.
GMC this time. Other than regular eminence he has not had any problems in
80,000 + miles pulling a fifth wheel with a Bobcat loaded on it a lot of the
time.
Strongly, My wife works with a lady that owns a Dodge PU. Used light duty.
This is their third and they have had AC problems with all three. She said
no more.

I bought a used '87 in '88 and added 165,000 miles to the 33,000 on the clock.
Sold it last year, to me current regret. But it did have compressor problems. I
replaced three and decided I didn't want the frigging AC that badly, so did
without it. Vent windows are a big help. I have to wonder who specs those POS
compressors. Truck otherwise needed a water pump in the years I owned it
(normal repairs, one set of brakes, one rotor turning, tires, exhaust
system--it was OK but the catalytic convertor plugged and blew an exhaust
gasket at 144,000 miles).

Charlie Self
"Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:25:34 -0500, Swingman wrote:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.

I've got an '01 Dodge 1500 RAM extended cab ... even though it has an
excess of plastic on it, and is not that highly rated by consumer
advocates from what I can gather, the only other pick-up I've liked as
much was a 3/4 ton GMC I bought new in '78.

AAMOF, my wife would rather travel in it than in her Camry ... so long as
she doesn't have to pay for the gas.

Had an spanking new '83 F150 with the 4.9L inline 6. It got 22-23 MPG on
the highway. Drove it 177,000 miles in 15 years. Had one rear axle seal
replaced and a clutch in all that time. Never had to add oil between
changes and it alway passed the emissions tests with flying colors. I'd
still be driving it if it hadn't been stolen outa my driveway. Replaced
it with a used '87 F150 5.0L V8 with 112,000 on it. Now has about
150,000, with only front brakes replaced. This one only gets about 15 MPG :-(

-Doug

--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
But if you have an idea and I have one idea and we exchange these
ideas,then each of us will have two ideas" George B. Shaw

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

I bought a used '87 in '88 and added 165,000 miles to the 33,000 on the
clock.
Sold it last year, to me current regret. But it did have compressor
problems. I
replaced three and decided I didn't want the frigging AC that badly, so
did
without it. Vent windows are a big help. I have to wonder who specs those
POS
compressors. Truck otherwise needed a water pump in the years I owned it
(normal repairs, one set of brakes, one rotor turning, tires, exhaust
system--it was OK but the catalytic convertor plugged and blew an exhaust
gasket at 144,000 miles).

Where you live, AC is probably not so important. Down here in Houston you
would gladly give up the steering wheel in order to have the AC. I think
the American car companies are going cheap in all the hang on equipment. As
I stated in another post our company sold thousands of alternators,
starters, and Compressors each month and only for GM vehicles. That was a
big profit center for us.

I recall back in the 70's GM had the old Frigidaire A6 Axial compressors.
IIRC Continental used these compressors also. They were long and narrow and
could be easily rebuilt. Now days that stuff is so cheap it is cheaper to
replace than to repair. It becomes a vicious cycle.

RonB wrote:
Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years cannot
be called cheap.

The Unisaw has doubled in price over the last year?

UA100