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  #101   Report Post  
Old July 8th 20, 08:35 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Leon [email protected] on Wed, 8 Jul 2020 09:51:20 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
On 7/6/2020 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:46:45 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.

Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.

Sketchup is a must. It's overkill for laying out a room, though I
recently used it for laying out (really, thinking though) a beam to
put a hoist on in my shop. It's 13' between walls, which makes the
beam layout[*] a bit important (The Sagulator helped a lot too ;-)

Sketchup is a must have for woodworking, IMO.

[*] Twin double 2x8s bolted together with the hoist suspended on a
couple of pieces of 2x2x3/16" angle iron spanning the top of the
beams.

When I get to the point I need something serious detailed, then
some CAD will be in the works. As I said when I started the
retraining program: last time I was 'drafting' it was all pencil and
paper. "Computer Aided Drafting" was SCi-Fi and probably meant we'd
have robots doing the final inking.


Sketchup is not CAD. It's a modeling program. If you go into it
thinking it's CAD, you'll *never* pick it up. The process is
backwards.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.


Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?


LOL, I learned drafting when I "was" going to be an architect, early 70's.
So assuming CAD being better than actual drawings, we used an eraser if
we needed to revise a drawing, certainly not starting the whole drawing
over.


So did I, so do I "so let it be." But maybe there was something
about erasing ink that wasn't covered in my class. I dunno.

Nothing like noticing that this work order is Rev D, the next work
order in the queue is Rev C, and the actual program in the machine is
for Rev E? "Um, Boss, is this going to be a problem?"
Or the time that I saw that this line of holes is missing one of
the location dimensions. "Anywhere on the part , just 2.375 inches
from the other one."

Or the time, first day on the job, guy I'm working with see the
part is out of straightness. Goes to get the gizmo. I'm waiting,
reading the work order. He gets back and I ask "Uh, it says here,
that after this procedure, not to do whatever it is you have in mind.
Is that going to be a problem?"

Getting cross trained CAD after being a machinist was fun. I
think.


--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

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Old July 8th 20, 08:35 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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on Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:46:41 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Whatever it is, so far, it hasn't interested me enough to look
into. Some people pick up software easily. not my forte.


I don't either and have to get into the head of the developer before I
can pick it up. I started with Sketchup a number of times, each time
thinking it was a CAD program. I think it was someone here who told
me to look at it from the opposite side. Draw things first, then get
the dimensions of all the parts. It's really a 3D drawing program.


So I do the drawing on paper, and port it to the program. Hmm,
maybe I can make it work.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?


Says so, right on my text books.


You shouldn't have to "redraw" anything to move a hole.


If you have a paper & ink drawing, revisions required the entire
thing be redrawn and re inked. Because what is on the drawing is the
legal definition of the part. I know that Boeing issues
"notifications" which are to amend / clarify a portion of a drawing,
but at one level, that is dumb. I have waded through masses of paper
to see if there is a reason why the part I have in hand, which does
not match the drawing I'm seeing, "is in spec."
Fnord - last run of an extruded part, and the extrusion doesn't
match the drawing. Off by "that much" which is way out of tolerance.
Oy. So much for the rest of the shift.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #103   Report Post  
Old July 9th 20, 02:48 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:57:54 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:41:00 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.


No, using it as an excuse for graft.


Welcome to the Machine.


Exactly. That's why I don't live in a fascist state, like Illinois,
anymore.
  #104   Report Post  
Old July 9th 20, 02:49 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:14:36 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:54:57 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

But be that as it may, I take it then that you are not one to
evade your taxes by taking any deductions?


Oh, good grief! Do you really not know the difference?


Look up the Luxury Tax Act of 1991. Great idea, add a 10%
surcharge on boats over $100,000. Would be a real revenue generator.


And that's relevant how?

For some reason, if failed to bring in all that much money, and
two years later it was repealed, due to the lack of jobs, and the
closing of boat building yards. Why? Because people do not have to
conduct their business so as benefit the tax man. While US yards were
closing due to lack of work, the Canadian yards 200 miles to the north
were booked solid.


And that's relevant how?

Now, I'm sure that you'd be willing to chose a US yard, never mind
that it is a minimum of 10% more expensive. Because after all,
apparently to you "avoiding tax" is the same as "evading". And you
wouldn't want to "evade" any taxes, right?


And that's relevant how?
  #105   Report Post  
Old July 9th 20, 02:52 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 12:35:37 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:46:41 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Whatever it is, so far, it hasn't interested me enough to look
into. Some people pick up software easily. not my forte.


I don't either and have to get into the head of the developer before I
can pick it up. I started with Sketchup a number of times, each time
thinking it was a CAD program. I think it was someone here who told
me to look at it from the opposite side. Draw things first, then get
the dimensions of all the parts. It's really a 3D drawing program.


So I do the drawing on paper, and port it to the program. Hmm,
maybe I can make it work.


That's nuts. Use the program for what it's designed for. 3D drawing.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?

Says so, right on my text books.


You shouldn't have to "redraw" anything to move a hole.


If you have a paper & ink drawing, revisions required the entire
thing be redrawn and re inked. Because what is on the drawing is the
legal definition of the part. I know that Boeing issues
"notifications" which are to amend / clarify a portion of a drawing,
but at one level, that is dumb. I have waded through masses of paper
to see if there is a reason why the part I have in hand, which does
not match the drawing I'm seeing, "is in spec."


So why do you do it?

Fnord - last run of an extruded part, and the extrusion doesn't
match the drawing. Off by "that much" which is way out of tolerance.
Oy. So much for the rest of the shift.


Different issue. Sketchup would be *perfect* for designing
extrusions. Draw the cross section and pull it in the 'Z' direction.


  #106   Report Post  
Old July 9th 20, 04:30 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:48:11 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:57:54 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:41:00 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.

No, using it as an excuse for graft.


Welcome to the Machine.


Exactly. That's why I don't live in a fascist state, like Illinois,
anymore.


Yep
  #107   Report Post  
Old July 9th 20, 04:37 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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on Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:52:06 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 12:35:37 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
on Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:46:41 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
Whatever it is, so far, it hasn't interested me enough to look
into. Some people pick up software easily. not my forte.
I don't either and have to get into the head of the developer before I
can pick it up. I started with Sketchup a number of times, each time
thinking it was a CAD program. I think it was someone here who told
me to look at it from the opposite side. Draw things first, then get
the dimensions of all the parts. It's really a 3D drawing program.


So I do the drawing on paper, and port it to the program. Hmm,
maybe I can make it work.


That's nuts. Use the program for what it's designed for. 3D drawing.


that's what I said. Everything starts on the proverbial cocktail
napkin.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.
Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?
Says so, right on my text books.
You shouldn't have to "redraw" anything to move a hole.


If you have a paper & ink drawing, revisions required the entire
thing be redrawn and re inked. Because what is on the drawing is the
legal definition of the part. I know that Boeing issues
"notifications" which are to amend / clarify a portion of a drawing,
but at one level, that is dumb. I have waded through masses of paper
to see if there is a reason why the part I have in hand, which does
not match the drawing I'm seeing, "is in spec."


So why do you do it?


It was part of the job. One of the things I have realized over
the years: when it is my part / project, the drawings can be as vague
as they want, I know what I'm trying to do. But if I want some one
else to help, make or inspect the results, then I need complete
detailed drawing.

In this case the part I have just run, does not match the
specification of the print with the work order. It is way out of
specification, and thus "scrap". (As the saying goes "You can't make
scrap fast enough to turn a profit.") Because the size specification
on the drawing was revised in an ADCN on a separate page, and possibly
_that_ was had a follow on ADCN revision of its own. You learn to
read work orders, completely.
The one which comes to mind is that the original print measured
off a beveled edge, however the ADCN showed that it was to be measured
off of a squared edge, the difference being greater than the 0.030"
tolerance. (Which is better than the parts where the spec is to where
the two angles intersect, over in the air past the curve.)

Fnord - last run of an extruded part, and the extrusion doesn't
match the drawing. Off by "that much" which is way out of tolerance.
Oy. So much for the rest of the shift.


Different issue. Sketchup would be *perfect* for designing
extrusions. Draw the cross section and pull it in the 'Z' direction.


Maybe it is.

Now, the company has gone to the effort of having several lengths
of extrusion delivered, cut to size and delivered to my work station,
along with the traveler and the program. After I run the first part
and take it in for a first part inspection, how do I shrink the
extrusion to fit the PCM of the part? Remember, this is the
customer's life sized drawing of how the part is to be, the company
has bought the extrusion, and I'm one of a dozen operations on this
part. My part of the job went perfect, but the extrusion web was too
"tall". When lined up and laid on the PCM, the bottom of the one leg
was just a tad above where the top was suppose to be: the web was
excessive by the thickness of the leg. Once I pointed that issue to
the foreman, I was done. Stop, halt, go no further, make no more
parts. "Edinburgh, we have a wee problem".
There was a guy who could just change the specification of the
part, but that was not me.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.
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