Greetings

Seeking the collective wisdom of the Internet on a remodeling
project.

The Project of the summer is to put a window in the shed. (I
should have done this two years ago when I was rebuilding said shed.
"If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have done a whole lot of
changes from what I did.)
I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

Anyway, the issue is The Header. The thing which goes at the top
of the wall and transfers the load "elsewhere" First question: does
it need to be a 4 x 8, or can two 2x8s be nailed together and made to
work?

Secondly the wall I want to put the window into is 'load bearing',
specifically, those studs have the joists supporting the loft
attached. Unlike the north or south wall which are just holding
themselves up. Originally I was willing to cut the studs under the
joists, and install the header under the joist. But .. that puts the
bottom of the window below the (eventual) bench top. (If my
calculations are correct, the bottom of the window is at 21 inches
height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)
If I cut the joists loose (propping them up _before_ I start
sawing) I could raise everything up by 1 Joist height (six inches, if
memory serves). This still leaves the bottom of my windows below the
bench top, but ...

The alternative is to go buy a shorter window, but I don't want to
waste money of things like that when I need to get some tools.
--
pyotr filipivich
TV NEWS: Yesterday's newspaper read to the illiterate.

On 7/1/2020 11:13 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Greetings

Seeking the collective wisdom of the Internet on a remodeling
project.

The Project of the summer is to put a window in the shed. (I
should have done this two years ago when I was rebuilding said shed.
"If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have done a whole lot of
changes from what I did.)
I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

Anyway, the issue is The Header. The thing which goes at the top
of the wall and transfers the load "elsewhere" First question: does
it need to be a 4 x 8, or can two 2x8s be nailed together and made to
work?

I don't know that I've ever seen a 4"x8" board, let alone one used as a
header. Two 2x8's nailed together should do the trick. I used 2 2x6's
as headers in my garage shop without any problem.

I assume that the 8" is called for in the case of your span.

When I built the garage, I used a pair of 2x10's (IIRC) bolted together
with a "flitch plate" sandwiched between them. Plate was a 2x10 piece
of 3/8" steel. 34+ years later, with midwest snow loads there has been
ZERO deflection on that 16' garage door header.

As for the rest of the "problem", I'm not sure I understand what you're
asking so I won't volunteer anything other than to suggest what you're
already considering: Right sized windows to begin with.

Have you thought of hitting a "Habitat for Humanity" resale shop?
Amazing what you can find there.



Secondly the wall I want to put the window into is 'load bearing',
specifically, those studs have the joists supporting the loft
attached. Unlike the north or south wall which are just holding
themselves up. Originally I was willing to cut the studs under the
joists, and install the header under the joist. But .. that puts the
bottom of the window below the (eventual) bench top. (If my
calculations are correct, the bottom of the window is at 21 inches
height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)
If I cut the joists loose (propping them up _before_ I start
sawing) I could raise everything up by 1 Joist height (six inches, if
memory serves). This still leaves the bottom of my windows below the
bench top, but ...

The alternative is to go buy a shorter window, but I don't want to
waste money of things like that when I need to get some tools.

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:13:27 AM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Greetings

Seeking the collective wisdom of the Internet on a remodeling
project.

The Project of the summer is to put a window in the shed. (I
should have done this two years ago when I was rebuilding said shed.
"If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have done a whole lot of
changes from what I did.)
I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

Anyway, the issue is The Header. The thing which goes at the top
of the wall and transfers the load "elsewhere" First question: does
it need to be a 4 x 8, or can two 2x8s be nailed together and made to
work?


Well, actually, the header doesn't necessarily go at the top of the wall.
Technically, it goes above the rough opening. Depending on the height of
the wall and placement of the rough opening, there may be studs between
the header and the top plate of the wall.

See he https://www.shedking.net/images/shed-framing-names.jpg

That said, Yes, building your own header is OK and probably the most common
method of creating a header. For 2 x 4 walls, you should seriously consider
adding a piece of 1/2" ply or OSB between the 2 x X's to build it out to the
full width of the 2 x 4 top plate.

However, I'm pretty sure that an 8' rough opening in a single story, load
bearing wall requires a minimum of a double 2 x 10, not 2 x 8. It might
need to be even bigger depending on the snow load.

(Old rule of thumb was width of opening plus 2)

Should we stop right here and not worry about your other question?



Secondly the wall I want to put the window into is 'load bearing',
specifically, those studs have the joists supporting the loft
attached. Unlike the north or south wall which are just holding
themselves up. Originally I was willing to cut the studs under the
joists, and install the header under the joist. But .. that puts the
bottom of the window below the (eventual) bench top. (If my
calculations are correct, the bottom of the window is at 21 inches
height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)
If I cut the joists loose (propping them up _before_ I start
sawing) I could raise everything up by 1 Joist height (six inches, if
memory serves). This still leaves the bottom of my windows below the
bench top, but ...

The alternative is to go buy a shorter window, but I don't want to
waste money of things like that when I need to get some tools.
--
pyotr filipivich
TV NEWS: Yesterday's newspaper read to the illiterate.

Unquestionably Confused on Wed, 1 Jul 2020
23:54:37 -0500 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

I don't know that I've ever seen a 4"x8" board, let alone one used as a
header. Two 2x8's nailed together should do the trick. I used 2 2x6's
as headers in my garage shop without any problem.

I assume that the 8" is called for in the case of your span.

When I built the garage, I used a pair of 2x10's (IIRC) bolted together
with a "flitch plate" sandwiched between them. Plate was a 2x10 piece
of 3/8" steel. 34+ years later, with midwest snow loads there has been
ZERO deflection on that 16' garage door header.

As for the rest of the "problem", I'm not sure I understand what you're
asking so I won't volunteer anything other than to suggest what you're
already considering: Right sized windows to begin with.

Have you thought of hitting a "Habitat for Humanity" resale shop?
Amazing what you can find there.

I hadn't. But with the shutdown in Washington, I'd forgotten
about that.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Wed, 01 Jul 2020 21:13:42 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

Seeking the collective wisdom of the Internet on a remodeling
project.

The Project of the summer is to put a window in the shed. (I
should have done this two years ago when I was rebuilding said shed.
"If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have done a whole lot of
changes from what I did.)
I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

Anyway, the issue is The Header. The thing which goes at the top
of the wall and transfers the load "elsewhere" First question: does
it need to be a 4 x 8, or can two 2x8s be nailed together and made to
work?

Secondly the wall I want to put the window into is 'load bearing',
specifically, those studs have the joists supporting the loft
attached. Unlike the north or south wall which are just holding
themselves up. Originally I was willing to cut the studs under the
joists, and install the header under the joist. But .. that puts the
bottom of the window below the (eventual) bench top. (If my
calculations are correct, the bottom of the window is at 21 inches
height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)
If I cut the joists loose (propping them up _before_ I start
sawing) I could raise everything up by 1 Joist height (six inches, if
memory serves). This still leaves the bottom of my windows below the
bench top, but ...

The alternative is to go buy a shorter window, but I don't want to
waste money of things like that when I need to get some tools.


What size is the opening ?
You say that you're using the 2 sliding windows from an 8 foot
window unit - and leave us to guess that size - gee thanks.
You could leave a doubled tripled stud in-between the 2 windows
and have half the span to worry about - ie: no worries.
John T.

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:11:00 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

For 2 x 4 walls, you should seriously consider
adding a piece of 1/2" ply or OSB between the 2 x X's to build it out to the full width of the 2 x 4 top plate.

+1. Do you understand what Derby is saying, here?


However, I'm pretty sure that an 8' rough opening in a single story, load
bearing wall requires a minimum of a double 2 x 10, not 2 x 8. It might
need to be even bigger depending on the snow load.

Compare the price of 2X8s and 2X10s.... not really much difference. Use 2X10s, at the least.

Probably doesn't matter how low your window is. Just don't have your sill, if any, poking out to interfere with your bench. No telling, you may move the bench to another location, later.

Sonny

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 08:01:21 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2020 21:13:42 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

Seeking the collective wisdom of the Internet on a remodeling
project.

The Project of the summer is to put a window in the shed. (I
should have done this two years ago when I was rebuilding said shed.
"If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have done a whole lot of
changes from what I did.)
I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

Anyway, the issue is The Header. The thing which goes at the top
of the wall and transfers the load "elsewhere" First question: does
it need to be a 4 x 8, or can two 2x8s be nailed together and made to
work?

Secondly the wall I want to put the window into is 'load bearing',
specifically, those studs have the joists supporting the loft
attached. Unlike the north or south wall which are just holding
themselves up. Originally I was willing to cut the studs under the
joists, and install the header under the joist. But .. that puts the
bottom of the window below the (eventual) bench top. (If my
calculations are correct, the bottom of the window is at 21 inches
height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)
If I cut the joists loose (propping them up _before_ I start
sawing) I could raise everything up by 1 Joist height (six inches, if
memory serves). This still leaves the bottom of my windows below the
bench top, but ...

The alternative is to go buy a shorter window, but I don't want to
waste money of things like that when I need to get some tools.


What size is the opening ?
You say that you're using the 2 sliding windows from an 8 foot
window unit - and leave us to guess that size - gee thanks.
You could leave a doubled tripled stud in-between the 2 windows
and have half the span to worry about - ie: no worries.
John T.
Also, doing a "sub-standard" job - window too big or whatever, just
to use a "free" window generally ends up being "false economy" as you
will have to look at the results for YEARS!!!! Let the moths out of
the wallet and find a window that more accurately fits your
requirements - and mabee build a hothouse for the wife with the
existing windows to produce salad fixings theoughout the year - - -

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 9:12:17 AM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 08:01:21 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2020 21:13:42 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

Seeking the collective wisdom of the Internet on a remodeling
project.

The Project of the summer is to put a window in the shed. (I
should have done this two years ago when I was rebuilding said shed.
"If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have done a whole lot of
changes from what I did.)
I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

Anyway, the issue is The Header. The thing which goes at the top
of the wall and transfers the load "elsewhere" First question: does
it need to be a 4 x 8, or can two 2x8s be nailed together and made to
work?

Secondly the wall I want to put the window into is 'load bearing',
specifically, those studs have the joists supporting the loft
attached. Unlike the north or south wall which are just holding
themselves up. Originally I was willing to cut the studs under the
joists, and install the header under the joist. But .. that puts the
bottom of the window below the (eventual) bench top. (If my
calculations are correct, the bottom of the window is at 21 inches
height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)
If I cut the joists loose (propping them up _before_ I start
sawing) I could raise everything up by 1 Joist height (six inches, if
memory serves). This still leaves the bottom of my windows below the
bench top, but ...

The alternative is to go buy a shorter window, but I don't want to
waste money of things like that when I need to get some tools.


What size is the opening ?
You say that you're using the 2 sliding windows from an 8 foot
window unit - and leave us to guess that size - gee thanks.
You could leave a doubled tripled stud in-between the 2 windows
and have half the span to worry about - ie: no worries.
John T.
Also, doing a "sub-standard" job - window too big or whatever, just
to use a "free" window generally ends up being "false economy" as you
will have to look at the results for YEARS!!!! Let the moths out of
the wallet and find a window that more accurately fits your
requirements - and mabee build a hothouse for the wife with the
existing windows to produce salad fixings theoughout the year - - -

Not to mention that any plan to put a window directly behind - below the
top - of the workbench needs to include protection for the window. I have 2
work surfaces, both of which are up against the drywall. The dings and dents
smell very much like a broken window.

Oh, there's a gap between the back of the workbench and the glass? I hope
there's a "backsplash" on the workbench. Otherwise, good luck retrieving
anything that falls off the back of the workbench.

DerbyDad03 on Wed, 1 Jul 2020 22:10:57 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Well, actually, the header doesn't necessarily go at the top of the wall.

"It does if you're trying to fit a tall window" B-)

Technically, it goes above the rough opening. Depending on the height of
the wall and placement of the rough opening, there may be studs between
the header and the top plate of the wall.

See he https://www.shedking.net/images/shed-framing-names.jpg

That said, Yes, building your own header is OK and probably the most common
method of creating a header. For 2 x 4 walls, you should seriously consider
adding a piece of 1/2" ply or OSB between the 2 x X's to build it out to the
full width of the 2 x 4 top plate.

As the header on these walls are 2x4, well, it doesn't matter. The
Window frame is going to be more than 4 inches 'deep'. My current
thinking is to use a 2x6, and remove a "right sized" grove so I can
have the two window panels fit ... and I'll get back to you on that
when I confirm the dimensions.

However, I'm pretty sure that an 8' rough opening in a single story, load
bearing wall requires a minimum of a double 2 x 10, not 2 x 8. It might
need to be even bigger depending on the snow load.

I should have been clearer. While the original window was 8'
wide, the parts I'm repurposing are 2 feet wide. If I use both of
them, I have a 4 foot 2 inch span.

(Old rule of thumb was width of opening plus 2)

Should we stop right here and not worry about your other question?

Yeah. Priorities have changed for the next five weeks.

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

Sonny on Thu, 2 Jul 2020 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:11:00 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

For 2 x 4 walls, you should seriously consider
adding a piece of 1/2" ply or OSB between the 2 x X's to build it out to the full width of the 2 x 4 top plate.

+1. Do you understand what Derby is saying, here?

Yes. Adding a plywood "stiffener". expansion.

However, I'm pretty sure that an 8' rough opening in a single story, load
bearing wall requires a minimum of a double 2 x 10, not 2 x 8. It might
need to be even bigger depending on the snow load.

Compare the price of 2X8s and 2X10s.... not really much difference. Use 2X10s, at the least.

Probably doesn't matter how low your window is. Just don't have your sill, if any, poking out to interfere with your bench. No telling, you may move the bench to another location, later.

I've already moved that bench twice in the last year, one more
time is going to be "the last time". It is just a question of "how
much?" - two feet to the right, or to the other end of the shed?



Sonny
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 08:01:21 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2020 21:13:42 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

Seeking the collective wisdom of the Internet on a remodeling
project.

The Project of the summer is to put a window in the shed. (I
should have done this two years ago when I was rebuilding said shed.
"If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have done a whole lot of
changes from what I did.)
I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

Anyway, the issue is The Header. The thing which goes at the top
of the wall and transfers the load "elsewhere" First question: does
it need to be a 4 x 8, or can two 2x8s be nailed together and made to
work?

Secondly the wall I want to put the window into is 'load bearing',
specifically, those studs have the joists supporting the loft
attached. Unlike the north or south wall which are just holding
themselves up. Originally I was willing to cut the studs under the
joists, and install the header under the joist. But .. that puts the
bottom of the window below the (eventual) bench top. (If my
calculations are correct, the bottom of the window is at 21 inches
height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)
If I cut the joists loose (propping them up _before_ I start
sawing) I could raise everything up by 1 Joist height (six inches, if
memory serves). This still leaves the bottom of my windows below the
bench top, but ...

The alternative is to go buy a shorter window, but I don't want to
waste money of things like that when I need to get some tools.


What size is the opening ?
You say that you're using the 2 sliding windows from an 8 foot
window unit - and leave us to guess that size - gee thanks.

Sorry, "It was obvious to me." the window parts are 2 feet wide,
for a total of less than 4 feet, as they overlap some in order to have
one slide open. I'm after ventilation air as much as light. It gets
hot in there in the summer.

You could leave a doubled tripled stud in-between the 2 windows
and have half the span to worry about - ie: no worries.

Ooh, hadn't thought of that. Because this part of the shop has
studs on 24" centers, if I can find some "narrow" windows, I could
skip the entire "cut the studs" part and just install skinny windows.
John T.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

DerbyDad03 on Thu, 2 Jul 2020 08:45:22 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Not to mention that any plan to put a window directly behind - below the
top - of the workbench needs to include protection for the window. I have 2
work surfaces, both of which are up against the drywall. The dings and dents
smell very much like a broken window.

I should post the pictures of the one window, not by the bench.
Where the 4x4 post tipped over and broke the inner pane. "Someday" I
will get that fixed.

Oh, there's a gap between the back of the workbench and the glass? I hope
there's a "backsplash" on the workbench. Otherwise, good luck retrieving
anything that falls off the back of the workbench.

If there is a big enough gap, it will fall on the floor under the
bench. Then all I have to do is move everything "temporarily" stored
under the bench ...

The plan is top have some kind of "back splash" / grate / grill to
protect the window and to keep things on the bench. That hasn't been
a problem so far, because the bench is up against the wall, and there
are two tool cabinets and "stuff" on the bench against the wall. On
future plans is to build a new tool cabinet thing to hold "everything"
so I can find it.
Which brings me back to "fitting the windows" because I'm going to
loose that wall space behind the bench..
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On 7/2/2020 12:00 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
....

I should have been clearer. While the original window was 8'
wide, the parts I'm repurposing are 2 feet wide. If I use both of
them, I have a 4 foot 2 inch span.
....

Or, since going to be behind the bench which I presume is well over 4'
in length, you could leave, say, 6-8" between the two and reduce header
height with the intermediary full-support studs between.

If have to bump out for the window depth anyway, frame in 2x6 instead
and you've got extra depth to make up for some height in the header as well.

Get by with just a doubled top plate that way...

--

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 11:59:55 AM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Which brings me back to "fitting the windows" because I'm going to
loose that wall space behind the bench..

Option, with some extra work maybe, if you only gonna use the 2 smaller 2'X5' sashes. Install the sashes sideways, make a double hung unit so that you can open the sashes from either top or bottom. The whole unit would be ~ 5' wide and above the bench.

Sonny

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 2:06:43 PM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 11:59:55 AM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Which brings me back to "fitting the windows" because I'm going to
loose that wall space behind the bench..

Option, with some extra work maybe, if you only gonna use the 2 smaller 2'X5' sashes. Install the sashes sideways, make a double hung unit so that you can open the sashes from either top or bottom. The whole unit would be ~ 5' wide and above the bench.

Sonny

The 2 sashes wouldn't have to mate against one another, in the middle. Each would have its own separate track along the jams. Possibly easier to repair and/or replace if one sash gets broken.

Sonny

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:59:53 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Sonny on Thu, 2 Jul 2020 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:11:00 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

For 2 x 4 walls, you should seriously consider
adding a piece of 1/2" ply or OSB between the 2 x X's to build it out to the full width of the 2 x 4 top plate.

+1. Do you understand what Derby is saying, here?

Yes. Adding a plywood "stiffener". expansion.

Just to be clear, "stiffener" has (next to) nothing to do with it.

If your walls are 2x4, they are 3.5 inches "thick". A double 2x(4,6,8) header
is only 3". The 1/2 ply/OSB is to make the header as "thick" as the walls so
everything is flush when (if) you want to finish the wall, inside or out, as well as fully filling the space for maximum support.

The addition of the 1/2 ply doesn't add much strength when you consider that
probably half of the laminations are running the wrong way and not helping
at all.

DerbyDad03 on Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:33:29 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:59:53 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Sonny on Thu, 2 Jul 2020 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:11:00 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

For 2 x 4 walls, you should seriously consider
adding a piece of 1/2" ply or OSB between the 2 x X's to build it out to the full width of the 2 x 4 top plate.

+1. Do you understand what Derby is saying, here?

Yes. Adding a plywood "stiffener". expansion.

Just to be clear, "stiffener" has (next to) nothing to do with it.

If your walls are 2x4, they are 3.5 inches "thick". A double 2x(4,6,8) header
is only 3". The 1/2 ply/OSB is to make the header as "thick" as the walls so
everything is flush when (if) you want to finish the wall, inside or out, as well as fully filling the space for maximum support.

The addition of the 1/2 ply doesn't add much strength when you consider that
probably half of the laminations are running the wrong way and not helping
at all.

Ah, I had not figured that. The block of wood I used the other
time "fitted".

thanks


--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

Sonny on Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:06:37 -0700 (PDT)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 11:59:55 AM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Which brings me back to "fitting the windows" because I'm going to
loose that wall space behind the bench..

Option, with some extra work maybe, if you only gonna use the 2 smaller 2'X5' sashes. Install the sashes sideways, make a double hung unit so that you can open the sashes from either top or bottom. The whole unit would be ~ 5' wide and above the bench.

I've thought about that too. More engineering B-)
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.
John T.

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.
John T.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)


Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.
John T.

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

And does that describe typical sheds?

On 7/2/2020 10:02 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
....

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

I'd wager that isn't necessarily so, but the point isn't/wasn't whether
the particular is or isn't subject to Code.

It's at least reasonable to check on what UBC says is minimum just for
knowing whether one decides to follow or not.

Does sound somewhat skimpy depending upon just what it actually does
consist of in the upper "loft".

--

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:23:59 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 10:02 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

I'd wager that isn't necessarily so, but the point isn't/wasn't whether
the particular is or isn't subject to Code.

It's at least reasonable to check on what UBC says is minimum just for
knowing whether one decides to follow or not.

Does sound somewhat skimpy depending upon just what it actually does
consist of in the upper "loft".

Personally I'm an engineer--I'm happy to do my own stress analysis.

But the fact is that none of us have enough information to answer the
question and so we should be asking for that information, not shooting
from the hip and giving answers that may be ludicrously
overconservative or may be dangerous depending on what he is actually
describing.

This is a "shed":
https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/battle-of-normandy/cities/ecausseville/airship-shed
So is this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A6D5y0SCQAAktVs?format=jpg&name=medium

On Friday, July 3, 2020 at 12:53:27 AM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

I assume that you are talking about your justification, not making a
all-encompassing statement. The codes are stricter in my town. Don't
even get me started on fence codes. Whoops too late...

The code in my town is 6' up until the back line of the house, 4' along
the side and no fence past the front the line of the house. Corner lots
have to go through an exception process.

In my case I have an addition on the back of the house. It's half as wide
as the house and situated on the east side. The house to west of mine was
built on the rear of the lot, so they only have a front yard, no back yard.
It's also much smaller than mine (used to be a guest cottage). So basically,
the view from my back yard, looking west, is the side of the cottage and
part of their front yard.

I went to the town for a fence permit so I could put a fence on the west property line. A 6' foot fence in my back yard would add privacy, especially
for the portion of their front yard that runs alongside my back yard. After
all, in theory, a fence should add privacy between the parts of the lots
where people hang out.

However, the town, in their infinite wisdom, stuck to their code and said
that the back line of my house is the back line of the addition on the east
side of the house, therefore I had to drop the fence on the west to 4' at
that line. In other words, the rear part of my backyard could have a 6'
fence, but the front could only have a 4' fence. Basically, there would
be no real privacy between my back yard and the neighboring front yard,
which is essentially their back yard, from a "hanging out" perspective.

I waited a year, then put up a 6' fence all the way to *front* line of my
house, no permit. That blocks most of the neighbor's hang out area. It's
been 25 years and no complaints.

On 7/3/2020 9:33 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:23:59 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 10:02 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

I'd wager that isn't necessarily so, but the point isn't/wasn't whether
the particular is or isn't subject to Code.

It's at least reasonable to check on what UBC says is minimum just for
knowing whether one decides to follow or not.

Does sound somewhat skimpy depending upon just what it actually does
consist of in the upper "loft".

Personally I'm an engineer--I'm happy to do my own stress analysis.
....

So'm I...but he's done gone and one what has done and certainly posting
link to the UBC tables isn't recommending doing something.

The one recommendation I did give would be stronger that what he started
with whether it's up to Code or not it wouldn't be worse than existing.

--

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:33:29 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:59:53 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Sonny on Thu, 2 Jul 2020 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:11:00 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

For 2 x 4 walls, you should seriously consider
adding a piece of 1/2" ply or OSB between the 2 x X's to build it out to the full width of the 2 x 4 top plate.

+1. Do you understand what Derby is saying, here?

Yes. Adding a plywood "stiffener". expansion.

Just to be clear, "stiffener" has (next to) nothing to do with it.

If your walls are 2x4, they are 3.5 inches "thick". A double 2x(4,6,8) header
is only 3". The 1/2 ply/OSB is to make the header as "thick" as the walls so
everything is flush when (if) you want to finish the wall, inside or out, as well as fully filling the space for maximum support.

The addition of the 1/2 ply doesn't add much strength when you consider that
probably half of the laminations are running the wrong way and not helping
at all.

If you want to see just how little, the Sagulator will easily show
nothing. ;-)

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:51:15 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

And does that describe typical sheds?
Yes.10X12 is a small "shed" in extra-urban areas. I am in town on a
1/3 acre lot and my shed is 10X10 and the roof is 15X15.
Many "potting sheds" will have water.
Many sheds have electricity.

Also, regardless of size if it has a concrete foundation it requires
a permit here,

Sonny on Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:06:37 -0700 (PDT)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 11:59:55 AM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Which brings me back to "fitting the windows" because I'm going to
loose that wall space behind the bench..

Option, with some extra work maybe, if you only gonna use the 2 smaller 2'X5' sashes. Install the sashes sideways, make a double hung unit so that you can open the sashes from either top or bottom. The whole unit would be ~ 5' wide and above the bench.

Hmmm. I'm not sure I want to put a 5' opening in what is an eight
foot wall.

But it sounds cool.


OTOH a more "right sized" window - complete - 2nd hand at the
Habitat for Humanity store is $40
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

J. Clarke on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 21:10:51
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

It started as a ten by ten. I replaced the foundation & flooring
(5/4 T&G iirc maybe more), added a six foot "extension" to make it 10
by 16. I forget exactly how high the loft is, The Walls are 4' and
I reused the old rafter frames.
The 10x10 was 16 inch centers. the extensions were made with studs
on 24" centers. Made sense at the time.
And I still made more than three trips to the hardware store and
lumber yard.

If I knew then what I know now, I don't think I would have done
it. At all.


--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:27:37 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,

2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

Ayup. IF I'd built this at the old place, it would have been
subject to county rules. 200 sq if you ask / are noticed. I could
have gotten a Shipping container in for "less". But in the city, more
rules, smaller outbuilding. And a shipping container has a six month
or end of the project time limit.


Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

DerbyDad03 on Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:33:17 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:

I waited a year, then put up a 6' fence all the way to *front* line of my
house, no permit. That blocks most of the neighbor's hang out area. It's
been 25 years and no complaints.

I'll keep that in mind. I want a fence, she wants a tall fence.
IF for no other reason so that people don't have to see the pile o'
stuff in the back of the yard.
"I got in touch with my inner redneck, he say "Surely we can use
that for something!"
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

J. Clarke on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:51:15
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

J. Clarke on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 10:33:11
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

I'd wager that isn't necessarily so, but the point isn't/wasn't whether
the particular is or isn't subject to Code.

It's at least reasonable to check on what UBC says is minimum just for
knowing whether one decides to follow or not.

Does sound somewhat skimpy depending upon just what it actually does
consist of in the upper "loft".

Personally I'm an engineer--I'm happy to do my own stress analysis.

Best friend at church is a Civil Engineer. And he also makes note
of the necessity of knowing the jargon: That is not a rear deck and
dock. That is a 'wildlife observation platform".

And the repairs to grandpa's cabin to bring it up to code and wind
up with a building that's a third larger than the old one.

This is a "shed":
https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/battle-of-normandy/cities/ecausseville/airship-shed
So is this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A6D5y0SCQAAktVs?format=jpg&name=medium
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 1:57:38 AM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
J. Clarke on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:51:15
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.


Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Seems to me that power is the one thing that you don't screw with. You are not
the only person who could get hurt. Suppose there's a fire or you get hurt
while in the shed? It doesn't even need to be related to the power. The
emergency personnel aren't going to know where you cut corners when you
installed the power. They may rush in looking for the disconnect or catch
their equipment on that unsecured piece of Romex or step in energized water
or whatever.

Things that can kill you - or more importantly, that can kill *others* - should
be done to code.

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 22:57:54 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:27:37 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,

2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

Ayup. IF I'd built this at the old place, it would have been
subject to county rules. 200 sq if you ask / are noticed. I could
have gotten a Shipping container in for "less". But in the city, more
rules, smaller outbuilding. And a shipping container has a six month
or end of the project time limit.


Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".