On Dec 5, 7:04*am, dpb wrote:
On 12/4/2012 11:43 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:

On 12-04-2012 08:43, wrote:
No reason it can't be adapted to those things. It's basicly
a touch sensor that reacts to increased capacitance
from a person coming in contact with it. That triggers
a spring loaded ram that jambs into whatever is spinning.

Capacitance, eh? Then like an iPad, it won't work if you wear gloves?

No, problem...just slice thru the glove first...

LOL. But it obviously would work exactly like that.

On Dec 4, 4:03*pm, dpb wrote:
On 12/4/2012 1:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Dec 4, 9:38 am, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet *wrote:

...

The only people complaining about the perceived SawStop problems are
those that are uneducated on the product.

That's what I thought and that's why I asked.

However, something you said needs some clarification, at least to me.

You said: *"That said if you are having false trips it may very well
be likely that you are doing something wrong and probably the perfect
candidate for a SawStop, you are probably going to benefit from it."

What could a user be doing that would cause "false trips"? If there
are no documented false trip issues, then wouldn't any trips caused by
someone doing something wrong actually be *real*?

Theoretically, one could get close enough to the blade to trigger it w/o
actually touching it. *That scenario is mentioned in the patent
background since the detection circuit is capacitively coupled there
doesn't have to be actual contact if the disturbance of the capacitance
field is sufficient the actuator logic will think "something's bad" and
trigger.

That close would have to be a tiny fraction of an inch,
so close that you're almost touching it. In which case,
I would not call that a false trip because there isn't any
valid reason to be that close to the blade.

On Dec 4, 10:51*pm, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/4/2012 1:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Dec 4, 9:38 am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/4/2012 8:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Dec 4, 9:11 am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
* *Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. ***** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? *Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? *I doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. *So I'm sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. *If the saw stop didn't work, he would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... *sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting
in climb.... *yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... *holy ****.... * God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. *Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

I'd love to see the system! *I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. *It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. *It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. *The patents should tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do you have any figures that indicate that "false alarms" are an
issue?

I agree that "each false alarm requires replacing various mechanical
components" but if there aren't any false alarms, then it's a moot
point.

My only point being that using the words "each false alarm" might make
the reader think that they happen often enough to negate the value of
the device. That is not something I have read or heard about the Saw
Stop device, but the info might be out there somewhere.

False trips have never been proven to be of any fault of the saw. *I
have read about the SawStop having an issue with an older electonic
digital watch but Sawstop isolated the problem and took care of the expense.

That said if you are having false trips it may very well be likely that
you are doing something wrong and probably the perfect candidate for a
SawStop, you are probably going to benefit from it. *I know of no one
and have read of no one that has actually purchased a Sawstop having
this problem with out a reasonable solution. *Users are not complaining.

...

The only people complaining about the perceived SawStop problems are
those that are uneducated on the product.

That's what I thought and that's why I asked.

However, something you said needs some clarification, at least to me.

You said: *"That said if you are having false trips it may very well
be likely that you are doing something wrong and probably the perfect
candidate for a SawStop, you are probably going to benefit from it."

What could a user be doing that would cause "false trips"? If there
are no documented false trip issues, then wouldn't any trips caused by
someone doing something wrong actually be *real*?

Cutting wet wood and not over riding the system. *Just for starters.
No fault of the saw. *I see a false trip as something that should not
have happened and is the fault of the saw.- Hide quoted text -



The question then becomes, what exactly is "wet" wood?
To trip a capacitance/resistance sensor probably doesn't
require the wood to be dripping wet. There would be a
whole range of how much moisture a piece of wood might
have. Everything from wood that has been kept inside
in a heated shop, to a piece of wood that has been laying around
at a job site under a tarp, to a piece that was rained on
two days ago, etc....

On Dec 5, 12:38*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/4/2012 4:56 PM, Red Green wrote:





dpb wrote :

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:
...

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first
failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces
him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom
line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently
unsafe...

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof
either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or
the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no
knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then
sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...

--

Hmmm...An old Abbott & Costello episode where Costello was selling vacuum
cleaners comes to mind. Anybody with me yet? Woman had no electricity. He
had to eat the dirt he dumped on the floor.

Let's see, power goes out, lights go out, hand reduces down/forward
pressure, wood kicks, fingers hit hot dog blade that's spinnning full
bore, ooops! no electricity to sense, fingers splat on back wall. Wonder
if hot dog man has that one covered?

If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. *Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.

Capacitor- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You know this for a fact? It's in the product description?

On Dec 5, 2:18*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Dec 4, 4:28 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:





"dpb" wrote in
...
On 12/4/2012 12:45 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
...

Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

...

And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets ...
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs
3000#),...

Actually, I have seen a demo of Gass w/ a hotdot on a stick and swinging
it pretty quickly. It didn't get more than a nick that at most a stitch
or two would take care of.

As for the VW, sure--it was nothing but a tin can on wheels then...otoh,
a
1975 Buick weighed probably 25% more than the largest one you could
manage
to equip today and that's pretty much true on the overall US fleet
average. Has had to happen because of the EPA fleet-average mileage
rules...

The cost differential on the SawStop is owing imo to brand
identification
and uniqueness in the field as well as to the actual production cost
differential between that saw and the same one w/o the actuator
mechanism--that really is a meaningless comparison as there isn't any
such
thing as the Sawstop cartridge mechanism must be designed into the saw
from the git-go--it can't be retrofitted into a conventionally
designed/built saw.

Actually, that was my initial understanding, until I read the thing about
SS
adding only $100-200 to a saw, giving the impression it could be
retrofitted
somehow.

What on earth about it costing $100 to $200 to add
it to a saw gave you the impression in can be retrofitted?
When they said that air bags or anti-lock brakes would
add $300 to a car, did you think that meant you could
retrofit it to your 1965 Chevy?
Did you look at the same video we all did? *It also relies on sensor
technology that detects
the change in capacitance/resistance when you touch
it. * For that to work, clearly the blade has to be perfectly
insulated from the table and the rest of the apparatus.
Think that's possible with your current saw? *Actually, I bet the
resistance is near zero.
Steel blade, shaft, bearings, etc.



So there really IS economic sodomy here....
Trader4 ought to be ecstatic.....
--
EA

I'm just happy that after hurling the usual insults,
winds up with you showing that you're as clueless as ever.
And I'm sure I'm not the only one here wondering why
in a discussion of saw safety features your mind is
focused on sodomy. * Have something special planned
for tonight?
================================================== =

Your wife? *But only if she's not too sore from the last go-around....
--
EA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


EA, you're just ****ed because you're not in that video.
When I saw the title "An idiot and his table saw...", I fully
expected to see it featuring you.

On 12/5/2012 7:18 AM, wrote:
On Dec 4, 4:03 pm, wrote:
....

Theoretically, one could get close enough to the blade to trigger it w/o
actually touching it. ...

That close would have to be a tiny fraction of an inch,
so close that you're almost touching it. In which case,
I would not call that a false trip because there isn't any
valid reason to be that close to the blade.

Well, unless you actually _did_ touch (and teeth, not just the smooth
blade side), there wasn't an actual required need to trip as there was
not any damage inflicted. That's the definition of a false positive.

--

On Dec 5, 8:36*am, dpb wrote:
On 12/5/2012 7:18 AM, wrote: On Dec 4, 4:03 pm, *wrote:

...

Theoretically, one could get close enough to the blade to trigger it w/o
actually touching it. *...

That close would have to be a tiny fraction of an inch,
so close that you're almost touching it. *In which case,
I would not call that a false trip because there isn't any
valid reason to be that close to the blade.

Well, unless you actually _did_ touch (and teeth, not just the smooth
blade side), there wasn't an actual required need to trip as there was
not any damage inflicted. *That's the definition of a false positive.

--

That may be your definition, but it's not mine, nor do I
think it's a reasonable one. Being 1mm away from a
spinning blade tripping it works for me as a valid need
to stop the saw. And from the video, even
when tripped by actual contact, there was no damage
inflicted.

On 12/5/2012 7:24 AM, wrote:
On Dec 5, 12:38 am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/4/2012 4:56 PM, Red Green wrote:





dpb wrote :

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:
...

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first
failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces
him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom
line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently
unsafe...

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof
either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or
the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no
knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then
sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...

--

Hmmm...An old Abbott & Costello episode where Costello was selling vacuum
cleaners comes to mind. Anybody with me yet? Woman had no electricity. He
had to eat the dirt he dumped on the floor.

Let's see, power goes out, lights go out, hand reduces down/forward
pressure, wood kicks, fingers hit hot dog blade that's spinnning full
bore, ooops! no electricity to sense, fingers splat on back wall. Wonder
if hot dog man has that one covered?

If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.

Capacitor- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You know this for a fact? It's in the product description?

10+ years ago before the SawStop was in production I questioned Gass
about this. My TS accident happened after I finished a cut and had
turned the saw off. The blade was coasting down to a stop when I was
cut. I wanted to know back then it those bases were covered also.

On 12/5/2012 1:25 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/4/2012 1:03 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger
in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how
much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to the
cost of
a saw.

That is the number that has and or was quoted 10 years ago in 10 years ago
dollars. But on the other hand you need to understand the difference in
the cost of adding the feature to a saw and what the retail price will be.
You are no going to buy a new saw for cost.



BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better
saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

You are really adding nothing of value, you are obviously not familiar
with this product which BTY is not new by any stretch of the imagination.




I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the
sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL


So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.


You are dragging up assumptions that were made 10 years ago when the
technology was relative new. The SawStop has been in production for
close to a decade and your concerns have been addressed and proven to be
a non-problem.
Because this technology and brand is relative new to you does not mean
it is new.

And I am not being a snippy prick, you are simply uninformed.

On 12/4/2012 11:43 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 12-04-2012 08:43, wrote:
No reason it can't be adapted to those things. It's basicly
a touch sensor that reacts to increased capacitance
from a person coming in contact with it. That triggers
a spring loaded ram that jambs into whatever is spinning.

Capacitance, eh? Then like an iPad, it won't work if you wear gloves?



Jeez think about what you are saying. That is like saying it won't work
if you are wearing clothes. ;~)

After it cuts through the glove and touches your finger the system will
engage. Just because your hand is hidden does not mean that the saw
will not know when it touches your flesh.

Now before you assume that the blade will grab the glove and pull you
in, the glove is going to cut cleanly just like wood. Yes I know this
because I have pushed a glove into a running TS blade to see what
actually happens. It cut cleanly.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 12/5/2012 1:25 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/4/2012 1:03 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a
point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I
doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw
accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger
in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS
hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how
much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to the
cost of
a saw.

That is the number that has and or was quoted 10 years ago in 10 years
ago
dollars. But on the other hand you need to understand the difference in
the cost of adding the feature to a saw and what the retail price will
be.
You are no going to buy a new saw for cost.



BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better
saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

You are really adding nothing of value, you are obviously not familiar
with this product which BTY is not new by any stretch of the imagination.




I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the
sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another
reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL


So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.


You are dragging up assumptions that were made 10 years ago when the
technology was relative new. The SawStop has been in production for
close to a decade and your concerns have been addressed and proven to be
a non-problem.
Because this technology and brand is relative new to you does not mean
it is new.

And I am not being a snippy prick, you are simply uninformed.
================================================== ==============================


You are responding to three different groups. Please edit out the cross
posting.

On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 06:33:29 -0800, "CW" wrote:

==== On 12/5/2012 1:25 AM, Existential Angst wrote: ====

You are responding to three different groups. Please edit out the cross
posting.

Easy to determine whom he replied to. It's the poster at the top of
his message without any "" in front of it.

And, it would greatly help your request to snip unwanted text if you
did what you're asking Leon to do.

On 12/4/2012 11:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/4/2012 4:56 PM, Red Green wrote:
dpb wrote in :

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:


[snip]


Let's see, power goes out, lights go out, hand reduces down/forward
pressure, wood kicks, fingers hit hot dog blade that's spinnning full
bore, ooops! no electricity to sense, fingers splat on back wall. Wonder
if hot dog man has that one covered?


If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.

Capacitor


Do you know that for a fact, Leon or is that speculation? Yes, a
capacitor could be used to discharge the SawStop mechanism but I'm
wondering if it's also set up (assuming that this is NOT a speculative
solution) to power the sensing circuitry.

In any event, strike your phrase "if the saw is turned off" as erroneous
and/or misleading. If the saw is turned off, how would you ever change
the blade without the device triggering. Better to say "even with a
loss of power" (if such is truly the case).

On 12/5/2012 8:47 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/4/2012 11:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/4/2012 4:56 PM, Red Green wrote:
dpb wrote in :

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:


[snip]


Let's see, power goes out, lights go out, hand reduces down/forward
pressure, wood kicks, fingers hit hot dog blade that's spinnning full
bore, ooops! no electricity to sense, fingers splat on back wall. Wonder
if hot dog man has that one covered?


If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.

Capacitor


Do you know that for a fact, Leon or is that speculation? Yes, a
capacitor could be used to discharge the SawStop mechanism but I'm
wondering if it's also set up (assuming that this is NOT a speculative
solution) to power the sensing circuitry.

In any event, strike your phrase "if the saw is turned off" as erroneous
and/or misleading. If the saw is turned off, how would you ever change
the blade without the device triggering. Better to say "even with a
loss of power" (if such is truly the case).



It was fact 10 or so years ago, I questioned SawStop about the
possibility and or being cut after the was was turned off.

There is more than one switch on the saw.

But to be sure nothing has changed I have e-mailed SawStop with the
question. I'll provide the answer when I get it.

On 12/5/2012 8:33 AM, CW wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 12/5/2012 1:25 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/4/2012 1:03 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...

On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...

This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a
point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the
situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1


He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I
doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw
accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he
would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked
in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS

Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing
this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger
in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back
way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of
course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS
hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how
much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the
name of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to the
cost of
a saw.

That is the number that has and or was quoted 10 years ago in 10
years ago
dollars. But on the other hand you need to understand the difference in
the cost of adding the feature to a saw and what the retail price
will be.
You are no going to buy a new saw for cost.



BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better
saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

You are really adding nothing of value, you are obviously not familiar
with this product which BTY is not new by any stretch of the
imagination.




I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the
sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another
reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL


So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.


You are dragging up assumptions that were made 10 years ago when the
technology was relative new. The SawStop has been in production for
close to a decade and your concerns have been addressed and proven to be
a non-problem.
Because this technology and brand is relative new to you does not mean
it is new.

And I am not being a snippy prick, you are simply uninformed.
================================================== ==============================



You are responding to three different groups. Please edit out the cross
posting.



I am aware of that but see no harm in this particular thread. The new
names were my hint. ;~)

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 09:01:25 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

You are responding to three different groups. Please edit out the cross
posting.

I am aware of that but see no harm in this particular thread. The new
names were my hint. ;~)

Don't believe you. I think you didn't snip any of the thread just to
irritate him.

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Dec 4, 9:11*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
*Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:





On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
..
.
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation
as
he expected. ***** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? *Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? *I
doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. *So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. *If the saw stop didn't work, he would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... *sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... *yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... *holy ****.... * God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. *Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

I'd love to see the system! *I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. *It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. *It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. *The patents should tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do you have any figures that indicate that "false alarms" are an
issue?

Not recently, but but there were a number of complaints when SawStop
first came out. SawStop dropped out of the news, but that tells us
nothing on the issue of false alarms and it the problem was solved - the
media had moved on to other issues by then. In other words, absence of
evidence is not evidence of absence.

More generally, false alarms are and always have been a problem with
simple sensors in complex environments.


I agree that "each false alarm requires replacing various mechanical
components" but if there aren't any false alarms, then it's a moot
point.

My only point being that using the words "each false alarm" might make
the reader think that they happen often enough to negate the value of
the device. That is not something I have read or heard about the Saw
Stop device, but the info might be out there somewhere.

The intention was to raise the issue, as it is often forgotten, and yet
has a major bearing on use in a commercial workshop - the big cost is
usually the lost production while repairs are being made, not the cost
of the new parts.

So, the question was if guards were or were not a better alternative
than SawStop.

Joe Gwinn

Leon wrote:

10+ years ago before the SawStop was in production I questioned Gass
about this. My TS accident happened after I finished a cut and had
turned the saw off. The blade was coasting down to a stop when I was
cut. I wanted to know back then it those bases were covered also.


A modification can be made to table saws with induction or split
phase motors. You change the power switch from SPST to SPDT, add a
diode & electrolytic capacitor that charges when the motor is running.
When you switch the motor off, the capacitor discharges through the
motor, causing a rapid braking effect. This can't be done with
universal motors, since they will run on DC.

On 12/5/2012 9:05 AM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 09:01:25 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

You are responding to three different groups. Please edit out the cross
posting.

I am aware of that but see no harm in this particular thread. The new
names were my hint. ;~)

Don't believe you. I think you didn't snip any of the thread just to
irritate him.



;!)

On Dec 5, 9:07*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/5/2012 7:24 AM, wrote:



On Dec 5, 12:38 am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/4/2012 4:56 PM, Red Green wrote:

dpb wrote :

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:
...

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first
failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces
him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom
line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently
unsafe...

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof
either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or
the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no
knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then
sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...

--

Hmmm...An old Abbott & Costello episode where Costello was selling vacuum
cleaners comes to mind. Anybody with me yet? Woman had no electricity.. He
had to eat the dirt he dumped on the floor.

Let's see, power goes out, lights go out, hand reduces down/forward
pressure, wood kicks, fingers hit hot dog blade that's spinnning full
bore, ooops! no electricity to sense, fingers splat on back wall. Wonder
if hot dog man has that one covered?

If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. *Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.

Capacitor- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You know this for a fact? *It's in the product description?

10+ years ago before the SawStop was in production I questioned Gass
about this. *My TS accident happened after I finished a cut and had
turned the saw off. *The blade was coasting down to a stop when I was
cut. *I wanted to know back then it those bases were covered also.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that turning off the saw via the switch is
very different from a power failure, right? Using the
switch there is still power available to the protection
circuitry. During a power failure there is not.

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/5/2012 1:25 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/4/2012 1:03 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a
point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the
situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I
doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw
accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he
would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked
in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing
this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger
in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back
way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of
course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS
hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how
much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name
of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to the
cost of
a saw.

That is the number that has and or was quoted 10 years ago in 10 years
ago
dollars. But on the other hand you need to understand the difference in
the cost of adding the feature to a saw and what the retail price will
be.
You are no going to buy a new saw for cost.



BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better
saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

You are really adding nothing of value, you are obviously not familiar
with this product which BTY is not new by any stretch of the
imagination.




I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the
sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another
reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL


So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.


You are dragging up assumptions that were made 10 years ago when the
technology was relative new. The SawStop has been in production for close
to a decade and your concerns have been addressed and proven to be a
non-problem.
Because this technology and brand is relative new to you does not mean it
is new.

And I am not being a snippy prick, you are simply uninformed.

True, it has taken a while to get the bigger picture on all this, but god
forbid any of you genii explain **** coherently.

I never said it doesn't work, altho it appears it works better than I
thought it would, but perhaps not as good as YOU think it does. This saw is
a potential headache that a lot of shops just doh't need.

The REAL issue, as I am finding out, is this Stephen Gass is one ****ing
slickster, finagling the *legislation* of his gadget, muddied statistics,
etc, rather than letting the market choose. Or as one observer put it,
letting the insurance industry choose.

Gass doesn't give a flying **** about anyone's safety. He's riding this
bull 'til the bull drops from exhaustion, so he can collect his payday,
which someone else here pointed out in an almost Solomon-esque way -- I
think it was dpb. **** Gass, **** his patents.

There are a cupla other things.
First, instead of idiot-proofing ****, why not educate the idiots?
Hell will freeze over before I lose a digit on my RAS, a FAR more dangerous
tool than a table saw.
HWFO first, bec I know how to use push/pull sticks, etc. Part of the near
miss in the original video in the original post in this thread was that as
nice as those push blocks are, they are too short. Make a variety, to suit
the job, teach people how to use them. And yeah, thick gloves can be a part
of that arsenal -- I use them all the time on the RAS, more for kickbacks of
sharp-ish alum.

Toward the end of education, the original vid in the OP is stellar along
those lines. More of THAT kind of education could be just as effective as a
sawstop, I'm betting -- ESP with a bypassed sawstop....

Next, the medical costs being used to bamboozle the gummint into mandating
this bull**** are grossly inflated.
Suppose there are 3,000 amputations, which I doubt.
Suppose the surgeon's fee (for a successful reattachment of all 3,000, which
is waaaay beyond realistic) is $10K...
That's $30 million, not the BILLIONS bandied about by entreepreeneerial
slicksters, and economic ignorami like Trader4.

And this would be $30 mil, TOPS..... proly closer to $10 mil, given that
few of these will require the full medical sophistication of a full
re-attachment.

MOST of a hospital's costs are FIXED (and I'm calling full-time workers
(nurses, techs, assistants, support staff, etc, cuz, well, during a year
these costs ARE fixed), and wouldn't change if NO ONE showed up to an ER
room AT ALL.
Yeah, a cupla extra dollars in reagents'n'****....

Iow, to simplify this for Trader4, the only REAL variable expense here is
the surgeon, who, pardon the very excellent pun/metaphor, works by
piecework..... Why, thank you, thank you, yes, it was good, I agree.....

Sorta like the ole tele companies, dunning people thousands of dollars for
questionable long-distance calls -- the phone company didn't incur any EXTRA
expense as a result of those calls, which made the dunning more of an
extortion -- esp. when the calls were of questionable origin.

So the economic stats of medical costs bandied about are largely bull****,
because most of those costs are there ANYWAY -- a concept way over Trader4's
head, but he's going to dispute it anyway....

So I'm not saying this **** doesn't work, or that it's not even a good
idea -- more for schools, imo, and in some production facilities, perhaps,
where the monotony of the job (and the frequency of the cuts) really could
use a statistical hedge, safety-wise -- but like others have said, the fact
that Gass is furiously trying to shove his gadget down our collective
throats is an effing outrage.

CA, from one cite, is apparently close to making this bull**** mandatory....
not sure about the details, but the issue there HAS oh-ficially arisen.
Someone suggested CA simply seceding from the Union, so the rest of us can
live in ****ing regulatory peace.....
--
EA

On 12/5/2012 7:24 AM, wrote:
On Dec 5, 12:38 am, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
....

If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.
....

You know this for a fact? It's in the product description?

Well, Leon's second sentence is somewhat ambiguous altho if intended
specifically what is written only then I think he's right. Turning the
saw off isn't the same thing as loss of power. Having the two in
juxtaposition as does leads one to easily conclude that is saying that
the actuator would still function in the latter case. I don't know if
that was intended meaning or not.

I think it is correct that it would likely function if one hit the blade
during coastdown after turning the saw off w/ the normal switch (not
removing power from the saw) altho I can't find that specifically
addressed on the SS site.

I do _not_ think from the description it is at all likely that they have
designed it so that it would actuate during coastdown after the external
removal of power. I base this on the following description of
operation-- In order to stop the saw, a fast-acting brake stops the
blade when
contact is detected. The brake includes a heavy-duty spring to push a
block of aluminum, called a brake pawl, into the teeth of the blade
to stop the blade from spinning. The spring is held in compression by
a fuse wire until contact is detected. When contact is detected, the
system sends a surge of electricity through the fuse wire to burn the
wire and release the spring.

I seriously doubt there is a backup supply for that power to the fusible
link after a power outage nor is there any indication of a backup power
supply to keep the microprocessor circuitry functioning after loss of
power to the machine.

--

On 12/5/2012 8:18 AM, Leon wrote:
....

Now before you assume that the blade will grab the glove and pull you
in, the glove is going to cut cleanly just like wood. Yes I know this
because I have pushed a glove into a running TS blade to see what
actually happens. It cut cleanly.
....

That'll depend in large part on the material...leather, cotton, etc.,
probably. One of the Kevlar/similar combos I wouldn't count on so much...

--

On Dec 5, 12:24*pm, dpb wrote:
On 12/5/2012 7:24 AM, wrote: On Dec 5, 12:38 am, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet *wrote:

...

If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. *Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.

...

You know this for a fact? *It's in the product description?

Well, Leon's second sentence is somewhat ambiguous altho if intended
specifically what is written only then I think he's right. *Turning the
saw off isn't the same thing as loss of power. *Having the two in
juxtaposition as does leads one to easily conclude that is saying that
the actuator would still function in the latter case. *I don't know if
that was intended meaning or not.

I think it is correct that it would likely function if one hit the blade
during coastdown after turning the saw off w/ the normal switch (not
removing power from the saw) altho I can't find that specifically
addressed on the SS site.

I do _not_ think from the description it is at all likely that they have
designed it so that it would actuate during coastdown after the external
removal of power. *I base this on the following description of
operation-- In order to stop the saw, a fast-acting brake stops the
blade when

contact is detected. The brake includes a heavy-duty spring to push a
block of aluminum, called a brake pawl, into the teeth of the blade
to stop the blade from spinning. The spring is held in compression by
a fuse wire until contact is detected. When contact is detected, the
system sends a surge of electricity through the fuse wire to burn the
wire and release the spring.

I seriously doubt there is a backup supply for that power to the fusible
link after a power outage nor is there any indication of a backup power
supply to keep the microprocessor circuitry functioning after loss of
power to the machine.

--

I agree. Having the protection system work during coast-down
after the power switch is turned off seems like an excellent
feature and it costs virtually nothing to implement. Having it
work when there is a power failure is a whole different story
and would require somehow having a power store that would
last a minute or so. That would add cost and complexity and
for what? Normal coast-down occurs every time the saw
is turned off. Power failures with the saw operating are going
to be rare. About the only added factor which I'm sure
someone will bring up is that when the power fail occurs
you might be in the dark with a saw that's still spinning.
However I think the cases where there would be so little
light that you couldn't see well enough to avoid the saw
are going to be few.

On Dec 5, 10:15*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Leon wrote:

10+ years ago before the SawStop was in production I questioned Gass
about this. *My TS accident happened after I finished a cut and had
turned the saw off. *The blade was coasting down to a stop when I was
cut. *I wanted to know back then it those bases were covered also.

* *A modification can be made to table saws with induction or split
phase motors. *You change the power switch from SPST to SPDT, add a
diode & electrolytic capacitor that charges when the motor is running.
When you switch the motor off, the capacitor discharges through the
motor, causing a rapid braking effect. *This can't be done with
universal motors, since they will run on DC.


Even if this could work, it would have to be one hell
of a huge cap to hold enough energy to stop a spinning motor
and saw blade in the time to prevent injury. The cap might
be bigger than the saw. And I have my
doubts about it working at all, ie simply feeding DC into an
AC motor that has lost power being effective at braking.

But beyond that, why on earth would you? The energy
that it would take to keep the SawStop system active for
a minute during spin-down following loss of power has
to be tiny compared to what it would take for the electric
motor braking approach.

On 12/5/2012 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Dec 5, 10:15 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Leon wrote:

10+ years ago before the SawStop was in production I questioned Gass
about this. My TS accident happened after I finished a cut and had
turned the saw off. The blade was coasting down to a stop when I was
cut. I wanted to know back then it those bases were covered also.

A modification can be made to table saws with induction or split
phase motors. You change the power switch from SPST to SPDT, add a
diode & electrolytic capacitor that charges when the motor is running.
When you switch the motor off, the capacitor discharges through the
motor, causing a rapid braking effect. This can't be done with
universal motors, since they will run on DC.


Even if this could work, it would have to be one hell
of a huge cap to hold enough energy to stop a spinning motor
and saw blade in the time to prevent injury. The cap might
be bigger than the saw. And I have my
doubts about it working at all, ie simply feeding DC into an
AC motor that has lost power being effective at braking.

But beyond that, why on earth would you? The energy
that it would take to keep the SawStop system active for
a minute during spin-down following loss of power has
to be tiny compared to what it would take for the electric
motor braking approach.



I dont recall for certain but IIRC when the blade drops the tension on
the belt is released and in that situation the motor would not have to
stop at all.

On 12/5/2012 9:56 AM, wrote:
On Dec 5, 9:07 am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/5/2012 7:24 AM, wrote:



On Dec 5, 12:38 am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/4/2012 4:56 PM, Red Green wrote:

dpb wrote :

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:
...

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first
failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces
him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom
line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently
unsafe...

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof
either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or
the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no
knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then
sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...

--

Hmmm...An old Abbott & Costello episode where Costello was selling vacuum
cleaners comes to mind. Anybody with me yet? Woman had no electricity. He
had to eat the dirt he dumped on the floor.

Let's see, power goes out, lights go out, hand reduces down/forward
pressure, wood kicks, fingers hit hot dog blade that's spinnning full
bore, ooops! no electricity to sense, fingers splat on back wall. Wonder
if hot dog man has that one covered?

If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.

Capacitor- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You know this for a fact? It's in the product description?

10+ years ago before the SawStop was in production I questioned Gass
about this. My TS accident happened after I finished a cut and had
turned the saw off. The blade was coasting down to a stop when I was
cut. I wanted to know back then it those bases were covered also.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that turning off the saw via the switch is
very different from a power failure, right? Using the
switch there is still power available to the protection
circuitry. During a power failure there is not.

Unless there is a charged capacitor that triggers the release spring on
the stop cartridge. I am waiting for a reply from SawStop to verify how
that works exactly. this saw is pretty well thought out, I don't think
that was over looked and has been over looked for the past 10 years.

" writes:
On Dec 5, 10:15=A0am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Leon wrote:

10+ years ago before the SawStop was in production I questioned Gass
about this. =A0My TS accident happened after I finished a cut and had
turned the saw off. =A0The blade was coasting down to a stop when I was
cut. =A0I wanted to know back then it those bases were covered also.

=A0 =A0A modification can be made to table saws with induction or split
phase motors. =A0You change the power switch from SPST to SPDT, add a
diode & electrolytic capacitor that charges when the motor is running.
When you switch the motor off, the capacitor discharges through the
motor, causing a rapid braking effect. =A0This can't be done with
universal motors, since they will run on DC.


Even if this could work, it would have to be one hell
of a huge cap to hold enough energy to stop a spinning motor
and saw blade in the time to prevent injury. The cap might
be bigger than the saw.

All you need is enough juice to burn through the fuse wire in
the mechanism. Gravity and mechanical springs take over,
as I understand it.

On 12/5/2012 11:24 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/5/2012 7:24 AM, wrote:
On Dec 5, 12:38 am, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
...

If the saw was running, it will stop if there is a loss of power. Yes
the stop will work if the saw is turned off.
...

You know this for a fact? It's in the product description?

Well, Leon's second sentence is somewhat ambiguous altho if intended
specifically what is written only then I think he's right. Turning the
saw off isn't the same thing as loss of power. Having the two in
juxtaposition as does leads one to easily conclude that is saying that
the actuator would still function in the latter case. I don't know if
that was intended meaning or not.

I think it is correct that it would likely function if one hit the blade
during coastdown after turning the saw off w/ the normal switch (not
removing power from the saw) altho I can't find that specifically
addressed on the SS site.

I do _not_ think from the description it is at all likely that they have
designed it so that it would actuate during coastdown after the external
removal of power. I base this on the following description of
operation-- In order to stop the saw, a fast-acting brake stops the
blade when
contact is detected. The brake includes a heavy-duty spring to push a
block of aluminum, called a brake pawl, into the teeth of the blade
to stop the blade from spinning. The spring is held in compression by
a fuse wire until contact is detected. When contact is detected, the
system sends a surge of electricity through the fuse wire to burn the
wire and release the spring.

I seriously doubt there is a backup supply for that power to the fusible
link after a power outage nor is there any indication of a backup power
supply to keep the microprocessor circuitry functioning after loss of
power to the machine.

--

A simple $5 multi thousand volt capacitor would hold the charge and melt
the fuse wire.

On 12/5/2012 10:41 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/5/2012 1:25 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/4/2012 1:03 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a
point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the
situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I
doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw
accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he
would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked
in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing
this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger
in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back
way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of
course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS
hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how
much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name
of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to the
cost of
a saw.

That is the number that has and or was quoted 10 years ago in 10 years
ago
dollars. But on the other hand you need to understand the difference in
the cost of adding the feature to a saw and what the retail price will
be.
You are no going to buy a new saw for cost.



BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better
saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

You are really adding nothing of value, you are obviously not familiar
with this product which BTY is not new by any stretch of the
imagination.




I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the
sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another
reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL


So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.


You are dragging up assumptions that were made 10 years ago when the
technology was relative new. The SawStop has been in production for close
to a decade and your concerns have been addressed and proven to be a
non-problem.
Because this technology and brand is relative new to you does not mean it
is new.

And I am not being a snippy prick, you are simply uninformed.

True, it has taken a while to get the bigger picture on all this, but god
forbid any of you genii explain **** coherently.

I never said it doesn't work, altho it appears it works better than I
thought it would, but perhaps not as good as YOU think it does. This saw is
a potential headache that a lot of shops just doh't need.

The REAL issue, as I am finding out, is this Stephen Gass is one ****ing
slickster, finagling the *legislation* of his gadget, muddied statistics,
etc, rather than letting the market choose. Or as one observer put it,
letting the insurance industry choose.

Gass doesn't give a flying **** about anyone's safety. He's riding this
bull 'til the bull drops from exhaustion, so he can collect his payday,
which someone else here pointed out in an almost Solomon-esque way -- I
think it was dpb. **** Gass, **** his patents.

There are a cupla other things.
First, instead of idiot-proofing ****, why not educate the idiots?
Hell will freeze over before I lose a digit on my RAS, a FAR more dangerous
tool than a table saw.
HWFO first, bec I know how to use push/pull sticks, etc. Part of the near
miss in the original video in the original post in this thread was that as
nice as those push blocks are, they are too short. Make a variety, to suit
the job, teach people how to use them. And yeah, thick gloves can be a part
of that arsenal -- I use them all the time on the RAS, more for kickbacks of
sharp-ish alum.

Toward the end of education, the original vid in the OP is stellar along
those lines. More of THAT kind of education could be just as effective as a
sawstop, I'm betting -- ESP with a bypassed sawstop....

Next, the medical costs being used to bamboozle the gummint into mandating
this bull**** are grossly inflated.
Suppose there are 3,000 amputations, which I doubt.
Suppose the surgeon's fee (for a successful reattachment of all 3,000, which
is waaaay beyond realistic) is $10K...
That's $30 million, not the BILLIONS bandied about by entreepreeneerial
slicksters, and economic ignorami like Trader4.

And this would be $30 mil, TOPS..... proly closer to $10 mil, given that
few of these will require the full medical sophistication of a full
re-attachment.

MOST of a hospital's costs are FIXED (and I'm calling full-time workers
(nurses, techs, assistants, support staff, etc, cuz, well, during a year
these costs ARE fixed), and wouldn't change if NO ONE showed up to an ER
room AT ALL.
Yeah, a cupla extra dollars in reagents'n'****....

Iow, to simplify this for Trader4, the only REAL variable expense here is
the surgeon, who, pardon the very excellent pun/metaphor, works by
piecework..... Why, thank you, thank you, yes, it was good, I agree.....

Sorta like the ole tele companies, dunning people thousands of dollars for
questionable long-distance calls -- the phone company didn't incur any EXTRA
expense as a result of those calls, which made the dunning more of an
extortion -- esp. when the calls were of questionable origin.

So the economic stats of medical costs bandied about are largely bull****,
because most of those costs are there ANYWAY -- a concept way over Trader4's
head, but he's going to dispute it anyway....

So I'm not saying this **** doesn't work, or that it's not even a good
idea -- more for schools, imo, and in some production facilities, perhaps,
where the monotony of the job (and the frequency of the cuts) really could
use a statistical hedge, safety-wise -- but like others have said, the fact
that Gass is furiously trying to shove his gadget down our collective
throats is an effing outrage.

CA, from one cite, is apparently close to making this bull**** mandatory....
not sure about the details, but the issue there HAS oh-ficially arisen.
Someone suggested CA simply seceding from the Union, so the rest of us can
live in ****ing regulatory peace.....



None of what he had done to promote his product is against the law and
he has every right to build his business. This is really no different
than having to buy auto insurance or new harsh having air bags and or
seat belts.

Somebody wrote:

A modification can be made to table saws with induction or split
phase motors. You change the power switch from SPST to SPDT, add a
diode & electrolytic capacitor that charges when the motor is
running.
When you switch the motor off, the capacitor discharges through the
motor, causing a rapid braking effect. This can't be done with
universal motors, since they will run on DC.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Otherwise known as dynamic braking.

Usually involves a DC power supply and a mechanically interlocked
motor starter and a DC contactor along with a time delay relay.

Normally used on three phase motors and requires a motor designed
for the application.

Will usually rip the stator out of the housing of a standard NEMA,
Design B motor without additional pegging.

An expensive solution at best, have never seen one on a single phase
motor, doubt a capacitor large enough to stop a single phase load
would
even come close to offering a cost effective solution.

Lew

On 12/5/2012 11:59 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
....

Ditto seatbelts, helmet laws. There's no fukn safety safety concern for the
public in seatbelt laws....

Well, that isn't so, in reality, no.

There's a very big societal cost in the higher injury/death rates owing
to folks not being individually responsible-enough to use them. It's
kinda' like the class staying after school because of one somebody threw
a spitball...we all pay for the sins of the few.

--

On 12/5/2012 12:19 PM, wrote:


If you don't
believe that people do not want to accept responsibility for their own
actions, and prefer to be victims of others, just take a look at the Hitachi
contractor's saw lawsuit. Or, the McDonald's coffee lawsuit. Or...
As I replied to Keith, what does any of that have to do
with the usefulness of SawStop on a table saw? It's not
an issue of personal responsibility. It's an issue of safety
and the fact that accidents happen to everyone.



What has this to do with personally responsibility? If you are stupid
enough to put a cup of near boiling hot coffee between your legs, the
company that made the coffee hot like you told them you want should not
be held responsible for your stupidity.

I am as safe as any one. The stupid mistake I made with my table saw is
the first I have made in the 50 years of using the saw. Should I have
the right to sue the manufacture because I was stupid?

The nanny state can not continue to require some safety device for every
stupid action that someone makes. If someone does something stupid and
looses a finger, it will be (or not be)there to remind them to be safer
in the future.

Regardless of how many safety devices are places on a saw or anything
else you use, they will not make you safe unless you accept the
responsibility for your own safety. If you do not know enough about the
saw or whatever device you are using to KNOW what is an unsafe act, you
should not be using it.

Maybe the next step is for our nanny state is to regulate the use of
table saws, and only allow you to use it after you have passed a test
and paid the government money for a license. Because government
licenses we now have no auto death or injuries.

On 12/5/2012 12:24 PM, Leon wrote:
....

A simple $5 multi thousand volt capacitor would hold the charge and melt
the fuse wire.

Perhaps but I doubt it's there...

--

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/5/2012 10:41 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/5/2012 1:25 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/4/2012 1:03 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a
point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the
situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a
RAS),
but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss.
nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I
doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm
sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw
accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he
would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked
in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done
that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could
happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing
this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to
Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up
to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow*
entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my
finger
in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back
way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of
course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS
hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how
much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog
into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the
mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name
of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix
a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to
the
cost of
a saw.

That is the number that has and or was quoted 10 years ago in 10 years
ago
dollars. But on the other hand you need to understand the difference
in
the cost of adding the feature to a saw and what the retail price will
be.
You are no going to buy a new saw for cost.



BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better
saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

You are really adding nothing of value, you are obviously not familiar
with this product which BTY is not new by any stretch of the
imagination.




I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the
sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another
reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL


So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't
pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.


You are dragging up assumptions that were made 10 years ago when the
technology was relative new. The SawStop has been in production for
close
to a decade and your concerns have been addressed and proven to be a
non-problem.
Because this technology and brand is relative new to you does not mean
it
is new.

And I am not being a snippy prick, you are simply uninformed.

True, it has taken a while to get the bigger picture on all this, but god
forbid any of you genii explain **** coherently.

I never said it doesn't work, altho it appears it works better than I
thought it would, but perhaps not as good as YOU think it does. This saw
is
a potential headache that a lot of shops just doh't need.

The REAL issue, as I am finding out, is this Stephen Gass is one ****ing
slickster, finagling the *legislation* of his gadget, muddied statistics,
etc, rather than letting the market choose. Or as one observer put it,
letting the insurance industry choose.

Gass doesn't give a flying **** about anyone's safety. He's riding this
bull 'til the bull drops from exhaustion, so he can collect his payday,
which someone else here pointed out in an almost Solomon-esque way -- I
think it was dpb. **** Gass, **** his patents.

There are a cupla other things.
First, instead of idiot-proofing ****, why not educate the idiots?
Hell will freeze over before I lose a digit on my RAS, a FAR more
dangerous
tool than a table saw.
HWFO first, bec I know how to use push/pull sticks, etc. Part of the
near
miss in the original video in the original post in this thread was that
as
nice as those push blocks are, they are too short. Make a variety, to
suit
the job, teach people how to use them. And yeah, thick gloves can be a
part
of that arsenal -- I use them all the time on the RAS, more for kickbacks
of
sharp-ish alum.

Toward the end of education, the original vid in the OP is stellar along
those lines. More of THAT kind of education could be just as effective
as a
sawstop, I'm betting -- ESP with a bypassed sawstop....

Next, the medical costs being used to bamboozle the gummint into
mandating
this bull**** are grossly inflated.
Suppose there are 3,000 amputations, which I doubt.
Suppose the surgeon's fee (for a successful reattachment of all 3,000,
which
is waaaay beyond realistic) is $10K...
That's $30 million, not the BILLIONS bandied about by entreepreeneerial
slicksters, and economic ignorami like Trader4.

And this would be $30 mil, TOPS..... proly closer to $10 mil, given that
few of these will require the full medical sophistication of a full
re-attachment.

MOST of a hospital's costs are FIXED (and I'm calling full-time workers
(nurses, techs, assistants, support staff, etc, cuz, well, during a year
these costs ARE fixed), and wouldn't change if NO ONE showed up to an ER
room AT ALL.
Yeah, a cupla extra dollars in reagents'n'****....

Iow, to simplify this for Trader4, the only REAL variable expense here is
the surgeon, who, pardon the very excellent pun/metaphor, works by
piecework..... Why, thank you, thank you, yes, it was good, I
agree.....

Sorta like the ole tele companies, dunning people thousands of dollars
for
questionable long-distance calls -- the phone company didn't incur any
EXTRA
expense as a result of those calls, which made the dunning more of an
extortion -- esp. when the calls were of questionable origin.

So the economic stats of medical costs bandied about are largely
bull****,
because most of those costs are there ANYWAY -- a concept way over
Trader4's
head, but he's going to dispute it anyway....

So I'm not saying this **** doesn't work, or that it's not even a good
idea -- more for schools, imo, and in some production facilities,
perhaps,
where the monotony of the job (and the frequency of the cuts) really
could
use a statistical hedge, safety-wise -- but like others have said, the
fact
that Gass is furiously trying to shove his gadget down our collective
throats is an effing outrage.

CA, from one cite, is apparently close to making this bull****
mandatory....
not sure about the details, but the issue there HAS oh-ficially arisen.
Someone suggested CA simply seceding from the Union, so the rest of us
can
live in ****ing regulatory peace.....



None of what he had done to promote his product is against the law and he
has every right to build his business. This is really no different than
having to buy auto insurance or new harsh having air bags and or seat
belts.

So, by omission, you agree with the points made above??

But to your last points, they are, unfort'ly, valid. Lobbying, which is
legalized bribery, is legal.
Dudn't make it right.
And yeah, this insurance bull**** is the OTHER great conjob.
Which is why Karen Ignagni, from Big Insurance, had to teach Obamer with her
strap-on.
--
EA

"Keith Nuttle" wrote in message
...
On 12/5/2012 12:19 PM, wrote:


If you don't
believe that people do not want to accept responsibility for their own
actions, and prefer to be victims of others, just take a look at the
Hitachi
contractor's saw lawsuit. Or, the McDonald's coffee lawsuit. Or...
As I replied to Keith, what does any of that have to do
with the usefulness of SawStop on a table saw? It's not
an issue of personal responsibility. It's an issue of safety
and the fact that accidents happen to everyone.



What has this to do with personally responsibility? If you are stupid
enough to put a cup of near boiling hot coffee between your legs, the
company that made the coffee hot like you told them you want should not be
held responsible for your stupidity.

I am as safe as any one. The stupid mistake I made with my table saw is
the first I have made in the 50 years of using the saw. Should I have the
right to sue the manufacture because I was stupid?

The nanny state can not continue to require some safety device for every
stupid action that someone makes. If someone does something stupid and
looses a finger, it will be (or not be)there to remind them to be safer in
the future.

Regardless of how many safety devices are places on a saw or anything else
you use, they will not make you safe unless you accept the responsibility
for your own safety. If you do not know enough about the saw or whatever
device you are using to KNOW what is an unsafe act, you should not be
using it.

Maybe the next step is for our nanny state is to regulate the use of table
saws, and only allow you to use it after you have passed a test and paid
the government money for a license. Because government licenses we now
have no auto death or injuries.



I can deal with a nanny-state, but not a nanny-state that also sodomizes me
economically.
You can't be my parent AND **** me....
Trader4 can mebbe deal wit dat, but Moi cannot.... lol
--
EA

On 12/5/2012 12:57 PM, Existential Angst wrote:



So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't
pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.


You are dragging up assumptions that were made 10 years ago when the
technology was relative new. The SawStop has been in production for
close
to a decade and your concerns have been addressed and proven to be a
non-problem.
Because this technology and brand is relative new to you does not mean
it
is new.

And I am not being a snippy prick, you are simply uninformed.

True, it has taken a while to get the bigger picture on all this, but god
forbid any of you genii explain **** coherently.

I never said it doesn't work, altho it appears it works better than I
thought it would, but perhaps not as good as YOU think it does. This saw
is
a potential headache that a lot of shops just doh't need.

The REAL issue, as I am finding out, is this Stephen Gass is one ****ing
slickster, finagling the *legislation* of his gadget, muddied statistics,
etc, rather than letting the market choose. Or as one observer put it,
letting the insurance industry choose.

Gass doesn't give a flying **** about anyone's safety. He's riding this
bull 'til the bull drops from exhaustion, so he can collect his payday,
which someone else here pointed out in an almost Solomon-esque way -- I
think it was dpb. **** Gass, **** his patents.

There are a cupla other things.
First, instead of idiot-proofing ****, why not educate the idiots?
Hell will freeze over before I lose a digit on my RAS, a FAR more
dangerous
tool than a table saw.
HWFO first, bec I know how to use push/pull sticks, etc. Part of the
near
miss in the original video in the original post in this thread was that
as
nice as those push blocks are, they are too short. Make a variety, to
suit
the job, teach people how to use them. And yeah, thick gloves can be a
part
of that arsenal -- I use them all the time on the RAS, more for kickbacks
of
sharp-ish alum.

Toward the end of education, the original vid in the OP is stellar along
those lines. More of THAT kind of education could be just as effective
as a
sawstop, I'm betting -- ESP with a bypassed sawstop....

Next, the medical costs being used to bamboozle the gummint into
mandating
this bull**** are grossly inflated.
Suppose there are 3,000 amputations, which I doubt.
Suppose the surgeon's fee (for a successful reattachment of all 3,000,
which
is waaaay beyond realistic) is $10K...
That's $30 million, not the BILLIONS bandied about by entreepreeneerial
slicksters, and economic ignorami like Trader4.

And this would be $30 mil, TOPS..... proly closer to $10 mil, given that
few of these will require the full medical sophistication of a full
re-attachment.

MOST of a hospital's costs are FIXED (and I'm calling full-time workers
(nurses, techs, assistants, support staff, etc, cuz, well, during a year
these costs ARE fixed), and wouldn't change if NO ONE showed up to an ER
room AT ALL.
Yeah, a cupla extra dollars in reagents'n'****....

Iow, to simplify this for Trader4, the only REAL variable expense here is
the surgeon, who, pardon the very excellent pun/metaphor, works by
piecework..... Why, thank you, thank you, yes, it was good, I
agree.....

Sorta like the ole tele companies, dunning people thousands of dollars
for
questionable long-distance calls -- the phone company didn't incur any
EXTRA
expense as a result of those calls, which made the dunning more of an
extortion -- esp. when the calls were of questionable origin.

So the economic stats of medical costs bandied about are largely
bull****,
because most of those costs are there ANYWAY -- a concept way over
Trader4's
head, but he's going to dispute it anyway....

So I'm not saying this **** doesn't work, or that it's not even a good
idea -- more for schools, imo, and in some production facilities,
perhaps,
where the monotony of the job (and the frequency of the cuts) really
could
use a statistical hedge, safety-wise -- but like others have said, the
fact
that Gass is furiously trying to shove his gadget down our collective
throats is an effing outrage.

CA, from one cite, is apparently close to making this bull****
mandatory....
not sure about the details, but the issue there HAS oh-ficially arisen.
Someone suggested CA simply seceding from the Union, so the rest of us
can
live in ****ing regulatory peace.....



None of what he had done to promote his product is against the law and he
has every right to build his business. This is really no different than
having to buy auto insurance or new harsh having air bags and or seat
belts.

So, by omission, you agree with the points made above??

I actually did not read all of that above on enough to see that you have
it in for Gass and cant get past that point.

Life is full of compromises and unfair situations. As you grow older
you either learn to adapt or not. I choose to get over it and move on.




But to your last points, they are, unfort'ly, valid. Lobbying, which is
legalized bribery, is legal.
Dudn't make it right.
And yeah, this insurance bull**** is the OTHER great conjob.
Which is why Karen Ignagni, from Big Insurance, had to teach Obamer with her
strap-on.

On 12/5/2012 12:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/5/2012 12:24 PM, Leon wrote:
...

A simple $5 multi thousand volt capacitor would hold the charge and melt
the fuse wire.

Perhaps but I doubt it's there...

--

We'll see when I get my answer.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 12/5/2012 11:59 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
...

Ditto seatbelts, helmet laws. There's no fukn safety safety concern for
the
public in seatbelt laws....

Well, that isn't so, in reality, no.

There's a very big societal cost in the higher injury/death rates owing to
folks not being individually responsible-enough to use them.

Well, then, technically, I remain correck:
Gummint don't give a **** about an indivdual's safety, they're concerned
about their own bottom line.


It's
kinda' like the class staying after school because of one somebody threw a
spitball...we all pay for the sins of the few.

A good analogy....
Altho I think kidnapping, extortion, and ransom are better analogies.
And there's no SWAT team for our rescue....
--
EA



--

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/5/2012 12:57 PM, Existential Angst wrote:



So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the
SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't
pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.


You are dragging up assumptions that were made 10 years ago when the
technology was relative new. The SawStop has been in production for
close
to a decade and your concerns have been addressed and proven to be a
non-problem.
Because this technology and brand is relative new to you does not mean
it
is new.

And I am not being a snippy prick, you are simply uninformed.

True, it has taken a while to get the bigger picture on all this, but
god
forbid any of you genii explain **** coherently.

I never said it doesn't work, altho it appears it works better than I
thought it would, but perhaps not as good as YOU think it does. This
saw
is
a potential headache that a lot of shops just doh't need.

The REAL issue, as I am finding out, is this Stephen Gass is one
****ing
slickster, finagling the *legislation* of his gadget, muddied
statistics,
etc, rather than letting the market choose. Or as one observer put it,
letting the insurance industry choose.

Gass doesn't give a flying **** about anyone's safety. He's riding
this
bull 'til the bull drops from exhaustion, so he can collect his payday,
which someone else here pointed out in an almost Solomon-esque way -- I
think it was dpb. **** Gass, **** his patents.

There are a cupla other things.
First, instead of idiot-proofing ****, why not educate the idiots?
Hell will freeze over before I lose a digit on my RAS, a FAR more
dangerous
tool than a table saw.
HWFO first, bec I know how to use push/pull sticks, etc. Part of the
near
miss in the original video in the original post in this thread was that
as
nice as those push blocks are, they are too short. Make a variety, to
suit
the job, teach people how to use them. And yeah, thick gloves can be a
part
of that arsenal -- I use them all the time on the RAS, more for
kickbacks
of
sharp-ish alum.

Toward the end of education, the original vid in the OP is stellar
along
those lines. More of THAT kind of education could be just as effective
as a
sawstop, I'm betting -- ESP with a bypassed sawstop....

Next, the medical costs being used to bamboozle the gummint into
mandating
this bull**** are grossly inflated.
Suppose there are 3,000 amputations, which I doubt.
Suppose the surgeon's fee (for a successful reattachment of all 3,000,
which
is waaaay beyond realistic) is $10K...
That's $30 million, not the BILLIONS bandied about by entreepreeneerial
slicksters, and economic ignorami like Trader4.

And this would be $30 mil, TOPS..... proly closer to $10 mil, given
that
few of these will require the full medical sophistication of a full
re-attachment.

MOST of a hospital's costs are FIXED (and I'm calling full-time workers
(nurses, techs, assistants, support staff, etc, cuz, well, during a
year
these costs ARE fixed), and wouldn't change if NO ONE showed up to an
ER
room AT ALL.
Yeah, a cupla extra dollars in reagents'n'****....

Iow, to simplify this for Trader4, the only REAL variable expense here
is
the surgeon, who, pardon the very excellent pun/metaphor, works by
piecework..... Why, thank you, thank you, yes, it was good, I
agree.....

Sorta like the ole tele companies, dunning people thousands of dollars
for
questionable long-distance calls -- the phone company didn't incur any
EXTRA
expense as a result of those calls, which made the dunning more of an
extortion -- esp. when the calls were of questionable origin.

So the economic stats of medical costs bandied about are largely
bull****,
because most of those costs are there ANYWAY -- a concept way over
Trader4's
head, but he's going to dispute it anyway....

So I'm not saying this **** doesn't work, or that it's not even a good
idea -- more for schools, imo, and in some production facilities,
perhaps,
where the monotony of the job (and the frequency of the cuts) really
could
use a statistical hedge, safety-wise -- but like others have said, the
fact
that Gass is furiously trying to shove his gadget down our collective
throats is an effing outrage.

CA, from one cite, is apparently close to making this bull****
mandatory....
not sure about the details, but the issue there HAS oh-ficially arisen.
Someone suggested CA simply seceding from the Union, so the rest of us
can
live in ****ing regulatory peace.....



None of what he had done to promote his product is against the law and
he
has every right to build his business. This is really no different than
having to buy auto insurance or new harsh having air bags and or seat
belts.

So, by omission, you agree with the points made above??

I actually did not read all of that above on enough to see that you have
it in for Gass and cant get past that point.

Life is full of compromises and unfair situations. As you grow older you
either learn to adapt or not. I choose to get over it and move on.

Well, you have a point.
But there is turning the other cheek, and then there is pretending your next
door neighbor is not being stabbed or raped, and turning the volume of the
TV way up. In a word, mass oblivion.

Ahm all for turning the other cheek, but not for spinning my head 1080 deg,
like the Exorcist.
It's getting to the point where everyfuknbody and their grandma are tryna
spin my head clear off.
It's gotta stop, but it won't if everyone just "moves on".

Gass is a hustler, and he's proven it. The fact that he's hustling LEGALLY
is a technical detail. He shouldn't be rewarded for these tactics.
--
EA






But to your last points, they are, unfort'ly, valid. Lobbying, which is
legalized bribery, is legal.
Dudn't make it right.
And yeah, this insurance bull**** is the OTHER great conjob.
Which is why Karen Ignagni, from Big Insurance, had to teach Obamer with
her
strap-on.