"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA



--
EA

On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....


I'd love to see the system! I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.

On Dec 4, 12:14*am, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:





"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
....
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. ***** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? *Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? *I doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. *So I'm sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. *If the saw stop didn't work, he would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... *sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting
in climb.... *yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... *holy ****.... * God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. *Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

I'd love to see the system! *I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. *It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No reason it can't be adapted to those things. It's basicly
a touch sensor that reacts to increased capacitance
from a person coming in contact with it. That triggers
a spring loaded ram that jambs into whatever is spinning.

And you've hit on the beauty of the system. UInlike many of
the safety features on products today, this one is not
intrusive. I just bought a Poulan electric chainsaw. And while
I'm happy with and think it's a great buy for the money, it
does have two safety features that are a pain. One is the
button that you have to push before you can pull the trigger.
With gloves on, it's hard to do it. The other is it has a hair
trigger that you have to not only keep fully depressed but
a LOT of pressure on to keep the saw going. If you just
let off the pressure a bit, the saw begins to stop.

On 12-04-2012 08:43, wrote:
No reason it can't be adapted to those things. It's basicly
a touch sensor that reacts to increased capacitance
from a person coming in contact with it. That triggers
a spring loaded ram that jambs into whatever is spinning.

Capacitance, eh? Then like an iPad, it won't work if you wear gloves?

--
Wes Groleau

Daily Hoax: http://www.snopes2.com/cgi-bin/random/random.asp

On 12/4/2012 11:43 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 12-04-2012 08:43, wrote:
No reason it can't be adapted to those things. It's basicly
a touch sensor that reacts to increased capacitance
from a person coming in contact with it. That triggers
a spring loaded ram that jambs into whatever is spinning.

Capacitance, eh? Then like an iPad, it won't work if you wear gloves?


No, problem...just slice thru the glove first...

http://www.sawstop.com/how-it-works/faq/
23. What if I am wearing gloves when cutting? Will the safety system
still work?
Yes. The blade must first cut through the glove and contact skin
before the safety system will activate.

--

On Dec 5, 7:04*am, dpb wrote:
On 12/4/2012 11:43 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:

On 12-04-2012 08:43, wrote:
No reason it can't be adapted to those things. It's basicly
a touch sensor that reacts to increased capacitance
from a person coming in contact with it. That triggers
a spring loaded ram that jambs into whatever is spinning.

Capacitance, eh? Then like an iPad, it won't work if you wear gloves?

No, problem...just slice thru the glove first...

LOL. But it obviously would work exactly like that.

On 12/4/2012 11:43 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 12-04-2012 08:43, wrote:
No reason it can't be adapted to those things. It's basicly
a touch sensor that reacts to increased capacitance
from a person coming in contact with it. That triggers
a spring loaded ram that jambs into whatever is spinning.

Capacitance, eh? Then like an iPad, it won't work if you wear gloves?



Jeez think about what you are saying. That is like saying it won't work
if you are wearing clothes. ;~)

After it cuts through the glove and touches your finger the system will
engage. Just because your hand is hidden does not mean that the saw
will not know when it touches your flesh.

Now before you assume that the blade will grab the glove and pull you
in, the glove is going to cut cleanly just like wood. Yes I know this
because I have pushed a glove into a running TS blade to see what
actually happens. It cut cleanly.

On 12/5/2012 8:18 AM, Leon wrote:
....

Now before you assume that the blade will grab the glove and pull you
in, the glove is going to cut cleanly just like wood. Yes I know this
because I have pushed a glove into a running TS blade to see what
actually happens. It cut cleanly.
....

That'll depend in large part on the material...leather, cotton, etc.,
probably. One of the Kevlar/similar combos I wouldn't count on so much...

--

On Dec 5, 9:18*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Now before you assume that the blade will grab the glove and pull you
in, the glove is going to cut cleanly just like wood. *Yes I know this
because I have pushed a glove into a running TS blade to see what
actually happens. *It cut cleanly.


So was that a leather glove, a kevlar glove, a cotton glove with
little dots on it, or a stainless mesh glove?

Dan

On Dec 5, 9:18*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


Jeez think about what you are saying. *That is like saying it won't work
if you are wearing clothes. *;~)


Since someone posted this to a metalworking group, will this system
work when using a table saw to cut metal? Somehow I think it will
not.

Dan

In article ,
Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....


I'd love to see the system! I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. The patents should tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn

On Dec 4, 9:11*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
*Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:





On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

On 12/4/2012 8:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 4, 9:11 am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:





On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

I'd love to see the system! I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. The patents should tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do you have any figures that indicate that "false alarms" are an
issue?

I agree that "each false alarm requires replacing various mechanical
components" but if there aren't any false alarms, then it's a moot
point.

My only point being that using the words "each false alarm" might make
the reader think that they happen often enough to negate the value of
the device. That is not something I have read or heard about the Saw
Stop device, but the info might be out there somewhere.

False trips have never been proven to be of any fault of the saw. I
have read about the SawStop having an issue with an older electonic
digital watch but Sawstop isolated the problem and took care of the expense.

That said if you are having false trips it may very well be likely that
you are doing something wrong and probably the perfect candidate for a
SawStop, you are probably going to benefit from it. I know of no one
and have read of no one that has actually purchased a Sawstop having
this problem with out a reasonable solution. Users are not complaining.


The only people complaining about the perceived SawStop problems are
those that are uneducated on the product.

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/4/2012 8:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 4, 9:11 am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:





On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a
point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I
doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw
accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he
would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

I'd love to see the system! I wonder if it could be adapted to
shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. The patents should tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do you have any figures that indicate that "false alarms" are an
issue?

I agree that "each false alarm requires replacing various mechanical
components" but if there aren't any false alarms, then it's a moot
point.

My only point being that using the words "each false alarm" might make
the reader think that they happen often enough to negate the value of
the device. That is not something I have read or heard about the Saw
Stop device, but the info might be out there somewhere.

False trips have never been proven to be of any fault of the saw. I have
read about the SawStop having an issue with an older electonic digital
watch but Sawstop isolated the problem and took care of the expense.

That said if you are having false trips it may very well be likely that
you are doing something wrong and probably the perfect candidate for a
SawStop, you are probably going to benefit from it. I know of no one and
have read of no one that has actually purchased a Sawstop having this
problem with out a reasonable solution. Users are not complaining.


The only people complaining about the perceived SawStop problems are those
that are uneducated on the product.


Well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop mentions the problem. Google
sawstop false trips for quite a few hits. Overall, it seems pretty good,
but not perfect. And crunching a good blade could cost *much* more than the
sawstop replacement crumple thingy.

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/ has a nice
alternative, non-destructive.

--
EA

On Dec 4, 9:38*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 12/4/2012 8:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Dec 4, 9:11 am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
* Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

On 12/4/2012 9:38 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/4/2012 8:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 4, 9:11 am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:





On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...

This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a
point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the
situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a
RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I
doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm
sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw
accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he
would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in
-- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help
the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could
happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing
this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

I'd love to see the system! I wonder if it could be adapted to
shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. The patents should tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do you have any figures that indicate that "false alarms" are an
issue?

I agree that "each false alarm requires replacing various mechanical
components" but if there aren't any false alarms, then it's a moot
point.

My only point being that using the words "each false alarm" might make
the reader think that they happen often enough to negate the value of
the device. That is not something I have read or heard about the Saw
Stop device, but the info might be out there somewhere.

False trips have never been proven to be of any fault of the saw. I
have read about the SawStop having an issue with an older electonic
digital watch but Sawstop isolated the problem and took care of the
expense.

That said if you are having false trips it may very well be likely that
you are doing something wrong and probably the perfect candidate for a
SawStop, you are probably going to benefit from it. I know of no one
and have read of no one that has actually purchased a Sawstop having
this problem with out a reasonable solution. Users are not complaining.


The only people complaining about the perceived SawStop problems are
those that are uneducated on the product.

+1

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Dec 4, 9:11*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
*Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:





On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
..
.
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation
as
he expected. ***** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? *Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? *I
doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. *So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. *If the saw stop didn't work, he would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... *sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... *yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... *holy ****.... * God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. *Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

I'd love to see the system! *I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. *It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. *It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. *The patents should tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do you have any figures that indicate that "false alarms" are an
issue?

Not recently, but but there were a number of complaints when SawStop
first came out. SawStop dropped out of the news, but that tells us
nothing on the issue of false alarms and it the problem was solved - the
media had moved on to other issues by then. In other words, absence of
evidence is not evidence of absence.

More generally, false alarms are and always have been a problem with
simple sensors in complex environments.


I agree that "each false alarm requires replacing various mechanical
components" but if there aren't any false alarms, then it's a moot
point.

My only point being that using the words "each false alarm" might make
the reader think that they happen often enough to negate the value of
the device. That is not something I have read or heard about the Saw
Stop device, but the info might be out there somewhere.

The intention was to raise the issue, as it is often forgotten, and yet
has a major bearing on use in a commercial workshop - the big cost is
usually the lost production while repairs are being made, not the cost
of the new parts.

So, the question was if guards were or were not a better alternative
than SawStop.

Joe Gwinn

On 12/4/2012 8:11 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
....

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. The patents should tell the tale.

AFAIK there's no data available from SawStop on the number of false
positives (and, of course there's no data on how many users turn the
bypass control on to be sure to avoid any chance of same when working
with wet wood such as PT).

The best one can tell from the patent is

"In many of the exemplary embodiments and implementations described above
and in the references incorporated herein, detection subsystem 22 relies
on the inherent electrical capacitance and/or resistance of the user's
body to modify the effective capacitance and/or resistance of the
cutting tool or operative structure."

The patent is (as are all well-constructed ones) written to cover not
only the actual "embodiment" but every possible variation of it that the
applicant can manage to stretch the colorful language to cover. In
early interviews it was pretty clear that it is capacitive coupling that
was used at least in the initial product and I presume it is likely
still the same fundamental technology used in the current saws w/ some
improvements owing to the experience factor. It's the same idea as the
"touch switches" on table lamps, etc. -- the body has much higher
capacitance owing to the water content than does dry lumber and if the
blade monitor sees a drop it presumes that's not good and fires.

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 12/4/2012 8:11 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
...

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires
replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. It
doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance)
between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal
stock. The patents should tell the tale.

AFAIK there's no data available from SawStop on the number of false
positives (and, of course there's no data on how many users turn the
bypass control on to be sure to avoid any chance of same when working with
wet wood such as PT).

The best one can tell from the patent is

"In many of the exemplary embodiments and implementations described above
and in the references incorporated herein, detection subsystem 22 relies
on the inherent electrical capacitance and/or resistance of the user's
body to modify the effective capacitance and/or resistance of the
cutting tool or operative structure."

The patent is (as are all well-constructed ones) written to cover not only
the actual "embodiment" but every possible variation of it that the
applicant can manage to stretch the colorful language to cover. In early
interviews it was pretty clear that it is capacitive coupling that was
used at least in the initial product and I presume it is likely still the
same fundamental technology used in the current saws w/ some improvements
owing to the experience factor. It's the same idea as the "touch
switches" on table lamps, etc. -- the body has much higher capacitance
owing to the water content than does dry lumber and if the blade monitor
sees a drop it presumes that's not good and fires.

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive battle
in the marketplace.

Well stated.
I myself prefer "economic sodomy", but nothing wrong with pretty-ing it up a
bit...

Patents really suck, eh? LOL
--
EA



--

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:
....

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first
failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces
him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom
line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently
unsafe...

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof
either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or
the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no
knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then
sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:
....

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first
failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces
him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom
line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently
unsafe...

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof
either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or
the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no
knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then
sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...
================================================== ========================
Or the guy that has it turned off because he doesn't want an accidental
trip, hurts himself and then sues, claiming that it was on.

--

dpb wrote in :

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:
...

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first
failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces
him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom
line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently
unsafe...

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof
either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or
the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no
knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then
sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...

--


Hmmm...An old Abbott & Costello episode where Costello was selling vacuum
cleaners comes to mind. Anybody with me yet? Woman had no electricity. He
had to eat the dirt he dumped on the floor.

Let's see, power goes out, lights go out, hand reduces down/forward
pressure, wood kicks, fingers hit hot dog blade that's spinnning full
bore, ooops! no electricity to sense, fingers splat on back wall. Wonder
if hot dog man has that one covered?

In article , says...

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote:
...

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his
attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by
legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive
battle in the marketplace.

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first
failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces
him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom
line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently
unsafe...

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof
either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or
the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no
knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then
sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...

Bear in mind that the override is a one-shot. You have to set it every
time you power up the saw and it resets to the default mode when you
turn off the switch.

On Dec 4, 9:11*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

The problem with SawStop has been that each false
alarm requires replacing various mechanical components,
which takes time and money.

Hopefully, just the block and the blade. The entire
machine is going to need a checking over, since
whatever force isn't dissipated by crushing the
block is going to absorbed by the parts it
attaches to. Looks like the whole saw jumps
in that demo.

OTOH, $20,000 for an ER visit will buy you one
hell of a nice saw.

On Dec 4, 12:14*am, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:





"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
....
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. ***** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? *Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? *I doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. *So I'm sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. *If the saw stop didn't work, he would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... *sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting
in climb.... *yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... *holy ****.... * God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. *Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:
http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

I'd love to see the system! *I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers,
routers and other cutting machines. *It would help a lot with OSHA
problems where guards make production next to impossible.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 3, 10:46*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
....
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. ***** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? *Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? *I doubt it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. *So I'm sure plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. *If the saw stop didn't work, he would have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... *sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting
in climb.... *yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... *holy ****.... * God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. *Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?

wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen, given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to pert
near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a bandaid
could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of course, much
diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how effective
this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how much? Mebbe not
enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr, I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable economic
sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now weighs
3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a flat for
you.

But then, economic sodomy dudn't seem to faze you, given your support of
Romney the Job Eviscerator.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-04-...ican-parasite/

OK, time for an Honesty Session:
Any of you Safety Assholes purchased a crawling helmet for a toddler??
If not, WOULD you???
Be honest.....
--
EA

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr, I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to the cost of
a saw.
BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL
--
EA







But then, economic sodomy dudn't seem to faze you, given your support of
Romney the Job Eviscerator.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-04-...ican-parasite/

OK, time for an Honesty Session:
Any of you Safety Assholes purchased a crawling helmet for a toddler??
If not, WOULD you???
Be honest.....
--
EA

On Dec 4, 2:03*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





wrote in message
....
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

On 12/4/2012 1:03 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr, I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to the cost of
a saw.

That is the number that has and or was quoted 10 years ago in 10 years
ago dollars. But on the other hand you need to understand the
difference in the cost of adding the feature to a saw and what the
retail price will be. You are no going to buy a new saw for cost.



BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

You are really adding nothing of value, you are obviously not familiar
with this product which BTY is not new by any stretch of the imagination.




I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL


So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 12/4/2012 1:03 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 10:46 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation
as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS),
but
he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the
SawStop:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

He claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt
it.
Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure
plenty
of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings.
He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents --
assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would
have
gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in --
ESP
the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that
WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bull****.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger,
cutting
in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy ****.... God help the
home
woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen,
given
that they now make crawling helmets for
toddlers:http://www.amazon.com/Thudguard-Baby.../dp/B001OWCOTS
Even insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this
one.
Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....
--
EA


Per the video you just supplied, the cost of the wrecked
blade and the SawStop module is $60. And it looks like
a device that could be sold for around that amount. So, I would
not buy a crawling helmet. But your cheap shots at
SawStop and me appear unwarranted. Or are you so
cheap and dumb that you think $60 for such a safety device
isn't worth it?
================================================== =====

Still more economic fabrication??

The replacement "crumple" thingy *alone* is $69, according to Amazon.
The *whole system* takes a $499 Crapsman table saw, and zooms it up to
pert near $2,000.

Plus, if you notice, those tests were conducted at a *very slow* entry
speed.
If Moi were feeding wood into a table saw at that speed with my finger
in
the blade path, I'll bet dollars to donuts I'd jerk dat finger back way
before the blade even came near the bone, proly not much more than a
bandaid could handle.
But poss. a nasty cut too, but nowhere near losing a digit. Of course,
much diff. story in a RAS.

Otoh, in the original video in this idiot/table saw thread, had HIS hand
actually collided with the blade at that hand speed, I wonder how
effective this device would be. SOME damage control, proly, but how
much?
Mebbe not enough.
Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

And ahm all for safety, I just detect the looming of the inevitable
economic sodomy.
And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets in the name of
"safety", again toward economic sodomy.
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs 3000#), and pretty soon you'll need a certified dealer to fix a
flat for you.

I may have mis-spoke.
I just read somewhere that the sawstop adds "only" $100-200 to the
cost of
a saw.

That is the number that has and or was quoted 10 years ago in 10 years ago
dollars. But on the other hand you need to understand the difference in
the cost of adding the feature to a saw and what the retail price will be.
You are no going to buy a new saw for cost.



BUT, saws sold by sawstop push $2,000.... intrinsically much better
saws??
I doubt it, but it's poss.

You are really adding nothing of value, you are obviously not familiar
with this product which BTY is not new by any stretch of the imagination.




I would like to see a $500 Crapsman table saw with and without the
sawstop,
see what the difference is.
In the meantime, I posted this non-destructive solution in another reply:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...awstop-killer/
We'll see who wins.

So, who's buyin crawling helmets out there?? LOL


So have you heard of the the iPad, it is much newer than the SawStop.

Whatever you do, don't quit your day job -- heh, which proly doesn't pay
much, otherwise you proly wouldn't be such a snippy li'l prick.
--
EA

On 12/4/2012 12:45 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
....

Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr, I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

....

And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets ...
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now weighs
3000#),...

Actually, I have seen a demo of Gass w/ a hotdot on a stick and swinging
it pretty quickly. It didn't get more than a nick that at most a stitch
or two would take care of.

As for the VW, sure--it was nothing but a tin can on wheels then...otoh,
a 1975 Buick weighed probably 25% more than the largest one you could
manage to equip today and that's pretty much true on the overall US
fleet average. Has had to happen because of the EPA fleet-average
mileage rules...

The cost differential on the SawStop is owing imo to brand
identification and uniqueness in the field as well as to the actual
production cost differential between that saw and the same one w/o the
actuator mechanism--that really is a meaningless comparison as there
isn't any such thing as the Sawstop cartridge mechanism must be designed
into the saw from the git-go--it can't be retrofitted into a
conventionally designed/built saw.

Just as PM and Delta get a premium over Jet for only moderately better
performing saws--they get it because of the reputation they've built
over the years (whether it still deserves the same respect is immaterial
as long as they can command the differential it's a real effect).

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 12/4/2012 12:45 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
...

Well, let them demo this sawstop ditty while *whipping* a hot dog into
the
blade, see how the hot dog fares. Any such vids?? Not from the mfr,
I'll
bet.

If I'm wrong, I bet wrong then. We'll see.

...

And, once again the "ante of complexity" just skyrockets ...
2012 cars are 50% heavier than cars in 1975 (a 2000# beetle then now
weighs
3000#),...

Actually, I have seen a demo of Gass w/ a hotdot on a stick and swinging
it pretty quickly. It didn't get more than a nick that at most a stitch
or two would take care of.

As for the VW, sure--it was nothing but a tin can on wheels then...otoh, a
1975 Buick weighed probably 25% more than the largest one you could manage
to equip today and that's pretty much true on the overall US fleet
average. Has had to happen because of the EPA fleet-average mileage
rules...

The cost differential on the SawStop is owing imo to brand identification
and uniqueness in the field as well as to the actual production cost
differential between that saw and the same one w/o the actuator
mechanism--that really is a meaningless comparison as there isn't any such
thing as the Sawstop cartridge mechanism must be designed into the saw
from the git-go--it can't be retrofitted into a conventionally
designed/built saw.

Actually, that was my initial understanding, until I read the thing about SS
adding only $100-200 to a saw, giving the impression it could be retrofitted
somehow.

So there really IS economic sodomy here....
Trader4 ought to be ecstatic.....
--
EA



Just as PM and Delta get a premium over Jet for only moderately better
performing saws--they get it because of the reputation they've built over
the years (whether it still deserves the same respect is immaterial as
long as they can command the differential it's a real effect).

--

On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

Am I the only one who would never work with the blade that far above the
wood?

I normally have only a quarter to 3/8 inch of the blade above the piece
of wood. (Higher for harder wood)

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:37:40 -0500, knuttle
wrote:

On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

Am I the only one who would never work with the blade that far above the
wood?

I normally have only a quarter to 3/8 inch of the blade above the piece
of wood. (Higher for harder wood)

If I need to cut a notch..I use the horizontal bandsaw

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On 12/3/2012 10:46 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Excellent vid, valuable lesson.
He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as
he expected. **** happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he
certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve
damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Apropos of this, the SawStop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoB...endscreen&NR=1

Am I the only one who would never work with the blade that far above the
wood?

I normally have only a quarter to 3/8 inch of the blade above the piece
of wood. (Higher for harder wood)

On 12/4/2012 2:35 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
....

Am I the only one who would never work with the blade that far above the
wood?

I normally have only a quarter to 3/8 inch of the blade above the piece
of wood. (Higher for harder wood)

Gullet should be at the surface cut or just tad proud for
crosscutting/ripping, granted.

As for "never", well, every rule has its exception. If I'm cutting for
a notch, I may well set the blade at its maximum height to have the
least angle possible and thereby the shortest possible undercut on the
back side of the piece...

But, in general, the point is good one...excessive blade exposure is to
be avoided.

--

Subject

The ambulance chasers are beginning to advertise on daytime
TV here in SoCal for tablesaw accident victims.

Like the smell of blood draws some, money attracts the vultures.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
Subject

The ambulance chasers are beginning to advertise on daytime
TV here in SoCal for tablesaw accident victims.

Like the smell of blood draws some, money attracts the vultures.

HD proly took note. It's amazing the saws in their lumber dept can cut wood
at all....
--
EA



Lew