I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I
think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is
shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether
this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically
requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go?

strictly speaking, sure you 'should' get a permit. Do most
people? NO! Even changing a water heater in San Jose
"requires" a permit, but almost no one does it...

dave

wrote:

I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I
think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is
shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether
this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically
requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go?

Depends on where you are and the regulations in your state or province. I
know in Ontario you can do it but then it should be inspected afterwards by
the electrical inspector.

Rick

--
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wrote in message
m...
I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I
think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is
shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether
this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically
requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go?

Check with your local building department. If you don't have one then you
probably don't need one. Then you need to consider your home owners
insurance. Stupidity is usually covered, but doing your own electrical work
may not be if it's not up to code. If you don't have local codes, then make
sure it adhears to NEC.

One level short of doing it all yourself, you could run the wire yourself
and have an electrician make the connections. This will cut down on the
billable hours and save cost.

wrote in message
m...
I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I
think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is
shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether
this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically
requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go?

In article ,
wrote:
I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I
think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is
shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether
this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically
requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go?

Location, location, location! grin

The 'rules' *DO* vary by locale.

If you're 'out on the farm', there's _probably_ no permit/inspection required.

In a town, it's a near certainty that a permit/inspection is part of the
letter of the law.

In _most_ communities, a homeowner -- of a single-family dwelling -- can be
certified to to the work themselves, by passing a relatively simple test.

Frequently, people do ignore the permit/inspection requirements. The "down-
side risk" of doing that is quite substantial. As in: it is grounds for your
insurer to refuse to pay off on a claim against your homeowner's policy.

I don't know where you're having to run the wiring _from_ (yes, the breaker
panel, obviously -- but _where_ is *it* located? , but there -are- issues
with going through the wall between the garage and the 'living' spaces. If
the panel is in the garage, then, of course, -that- matter is moot.


_Authoritative_ answers for your locale are available from whatever the
local-level governmental jurisdiction is --- village, town, city, county,
parish, or whatever.


The permit/inspection route is not terribly expensive.

And it's generally worth *more* than the dollar cost, in terms of
'preserving domestic tranquility'. Having the expert bless it and
say 'you done it right' _does_ have value "in house". grin

On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:21:47 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

[disclaimer]
I don't advocate anyone who doesn't know what they're doing to tackle
electrical work, nor do I advocate bypassing the permit/inspection
process in most circumstances for major jobs.
[/disclaimer]

The "down-side risk" of doing that is quite substantial. As in: it is
grounds for your insurer to refuse to pay off on a claim against
your homeowner's policy.

I've always questioned this scenario. If the work was done right (and
it is possible to be done right even without a permit or inspection)
how would the insurer even know whether the work was new (unpermited)
or original (permited and inspected)?

For example, although I am not a licensed electrician, I've been doing
electrical work on my home(s) for more than 30 years; some of it quite
substantial-as in pulling a larger service and wiring a good sized
shop in the basement. I have a good working knowledge of the NEC and
local codes and I've had the tutelage of a licensed master electrician
available to me for most of that period.

When I pulled a new service (upgrade from 60A to 200A and from fuses
to CBs) I got a permit from the village and had an inspection. The
utility changed over the drop to the weather head and meter socket I
had installed.

Fast forward 30 years to a new (old) home which already had 200A but
with an old, documented faulty FPE load center. When I went to the
(different) village to get a permit I was told the department didn't
permit unlicensed homeowners to do electrical work. That was nonsense
(as would a likely $1000 invoice for an electrician to do what I could
do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one
will ever know; certainly not my insurer.

In the remodeling of this house, I have also run at least six new
circuits (mostly involving significant master bath and kitchen
rewiring) and will be running a subpanel for the gara^H^H^Hshop with
all of its own wiring.

That, however, is not for everyone. But with my experience and
knowledge, it is right and safe for me. That is not to say that some
eventuality might occur with an equal probability of that of a
permited and inspected job, but it won't attract any more attention
from the insurer than a permited and inspected job, either.

However, I emphasize: if you don't know what you're doing, don't even
try. Unlike some other DIY arenas, it's not "good enough" if it's not
done right.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson
wrote:

LRod wrote:

do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one
will ever know; certainly not my insurer.

I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the
fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance
company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for
some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code?

That's precisely the scenario to which I refer. First keep in mind
that due to my knowledge and craftsmanship (I'm not being arrogant
here, just factual) the wiring is no more likely to be the cause than
the original electrician's.

Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong,
my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the
second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is
there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the
previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous
owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony.

We're getting into the "dust-explosion-in-plastic-pipe" arena here.
There is also a hot topic that flares up periodically on
rec.food.equipment regarding the installation of a commercial range in
a residence and how it relates to insurance. Most of it, and this
electrical-wiring-without-a-permit scenario is urban legend, in my
opinion.

I don't believe an insurer is going to dispute my claim based on what
a previous owner may or may not have done 25 years ago, unless it's
something obviously wrong. In fact, I'll issue the same challenge on
this subject that I have in the past on the plastic pipe thing: cite
one verifiable example of a home fire caused by faulty wiring in which
an insurance carrier denied a claim because of lack of documentation
of proper permiting and inspection. If that can be accomplished, I'll
never post a response on an electrical question again.

I'm not suggesting anyone go out and wire away willy-nilly. I am
saying that doing electrical work to the same standard or above as a
licensed electrician is an extremely low risk that *I* am willing to
take on *my* property.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Tue, 04 May 2004 13:48:49 -0700, Rick Nelson
wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't trying to challenge or argue with you
about this point,

I know you weren't, and I apologize if my reply came across as
belligerent.

I was just genuinely curious as I don't know jack about that type of stuff.

That's good. There are a lot of "chicken little" issues that have
cropped up over the past ten or so years of heavy internet
communication. Most of it is misapplication of data from one field to
another (exploding dust collectors is a perfect example). Some of it
is illogical extension of otherwise reasonable situations (insurance).

The more we talk about them and get some rational discussion going,
the more we can dispel the myths.

Another option I thought of if they did happen to ask for documentation
is to reply, "Yes, I keep all the documentation in that desk right
there" then point to the smouldering pile of ashes G.

Good one.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson wrote:

I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the
fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance
company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for
some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code?

Yes - every fire I've responded to that involved an insurance loss has
resulted in the insurance company's fire investigator, in addition to
usually the state fire martial if the fire involves "enough" damage
and/or a fatality. These guys are motivated to find out that there
is someone else who has to pay for the damage, be it the builder, or
the owner for doing something dangerous, etc.

Dave Hinz
(firefighter/EMT)

LRod wrote:

do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one
will ever know; certainly not my insurer.

I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the
fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance
company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for
some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code?

-Rick

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't trying to challenge or argue with you
about this point, I was just genuinely curious as I don't know jack
about that type of stuff.

Another option I thought of if they did happen to ask for documentation
is to reply, "Yes, I keep all the documentation in that desk right
there" then point to the smouldering pile of ashes G.

Similar situation came up last weekend at my Dad's house. The city
painted a big white X across a joint in the sidewalk and sent him a
notice telling him he had so many days to fix the 1/2" lip between the
two sections of sidewalk. Dad had me bring out my floor jack, and he
had his floor jack, a bunch of chain, steel pipe, sand, etc. I told him
"Dad, we don't need all this crap, all we need is some carburator
cleaner and a can of white spray paint - move the X down 30 feet to a
level section of sidewalk and tell them to come inspect it whenever they
please".

-Rick

LRod wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson
wrote:


LRod wrote:


do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one
will ever know; certainly not my insurer.

I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the
fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance
company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for
some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code?


That's precisely the scenario to which I refer. First keep in mind
that due to my knowledge and craftsmanship (I'm not being arrogant
here, just factual) the wiring is no more likely to be the cause than
the original electrician's.

Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong,
my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the
second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is
there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the
previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous
owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony.

We're getting into the "dust-explosion-in-plastic-pipe" arena here.
There is also a hot topic that flares up periodically on
rec.food.equipment regarding the installation of a commercial range in
a residence and how it relates to insurance. Most of it, and this
electrical-wiring-without-a-permit scenario is urban legend, in my
opinion.

I don't believe an insurer is going to dispute my claim based on what
a previous owner may or may not have done 25 years ago, unless it's
something obviously wrong. In fact, I'll issue the same challenge on
this subject that I have in the past on the plastic pipe thing: cite
one verifiable example of a home fire caused by faulty wiring in which
an insurance carrier denied a claim because of lack of documentation
of proper permiting and inspection. If that can be accomplished, I'll
never post a response on an electrical question again.

I'm not suggesting anyone go out and wire away willy-nilly. I am
saying that doing electrical work to the same standard or above as a
licensed electrician is an extremely low risk that *I* am willing to
take on *my* property.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article ,
LRod wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson
wrote:

LRod wrote:

do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one
will ever know; certainly not my insurer.

I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the
fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance
company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for
some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code?

That's precisely the scenario to which I refer. First keep in mind
that due to my knowledge and craftsmanship (I'm not being arrogant
here, just factual) the wiring is no more likely to be the cause than
the original electrician's.

That may be true for wiring _you_ do. It is not necessarily so for
DIY by "somebody else"

Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong,
my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the
second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is
there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the
previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous
owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony.

"who" done it is immaterial.

If things are not consistent with the original permit, and there were no other
subsequent permits issued -- and yes, the city _does_ keep all that stuff on
file, _in_perpetuity_, including the plans that had to be filed with the
permit -- then the 'current owner' *does* have a problem. EVEN IF the work
was done in a 'code compliant manner'.

We're getting into the "dust-explosion-in-plastic-pipe" arena here.
There is also a hot topic that flares up periodically on
rec.food.equipment regarding the installation of a commercial range in
a residence and how it relates to insurance. Most of it, and this
electrical-wiring-without-a-permit scenario is urban legend, in my
opinion.

Well, so much for "your opinion". I have _direct_ knowledge of *two*
cases where insurers _did_ reject a claim on the basis of 'illegal' (i.e.,
non-permit) work. Both are circa 40 years ago. One was plumbing-related,
the other electrical. In the plumbing case, the work had been done during
the prior owner's tenure. When the pipe burst (freeze up, many years later),
the 'truth came out', and the owner was himself stuck for all the damages.
In the electrical case, the then-current owner had had the work done
'informally', by an ex-"Navy SeeBee" buddy. A fire did occur. Direct cause
was a failing electrical cord (one of the old cloth-covered variety) on an
appliance. Plugged into one of the 'illegal' outlets that the SeeBee had
done. "Somebody" had told him he didn't need a permit if he wasn't getting
paid for the work. OOPS! Expensive lesson for my 'chimney-corner'
relative, the home-owner. (What *do* you call my father's brother's wife's
brother?)

I don't believe an insurer is going to dispute my claim based on what
a previous owner may or may not have done 25 years ago, unless it's
something obviously wrong. In fact, I'll issue the same challenge on
this subject that I have in the past on the plastic pipe thing: cite
one verifiable example of a home fire caused by faulty wiring in which
an insurance carrier denied a claim because of lack of documentation
of proper permiting and inspection. If that can be accomplished, I'll
never post a response on an electrical question again.

I'm not suggesting anyone go out and wire away willy-nilly. I am
saying that doing electrical work to the same standard or above as a
licensed electrician is an extremely low risk that *I* am willing to
take on *my* property.


I will do my own work, when I can. In my current domicile, a condo, by law,
I *cannot*. All plumbing and electrical work _must_ be done under the
direction of a licensed/ bonded professional. Makes sense -- a screw-up
has the potential to affect the _other_ owners in the building. (For my
recent kitchen re-model, I found a really _good_ guy (semi-retired), who
vetted what I was going to do, pulled the permit, and let me do all the
'grunt work'. Even loaned me some of his tools. And, he _was_ on hand
for the 'critical' work, like splicing the new breaker panel onto the mains.


HOWEVER, when I've done work on a single-family property, I've always pulled
a permit, and had the work inspected. It's a relatively petty-cash
expenditure -- and, that way, *everybody*knows* the work was done right.
I tend to engineer 'above and beyond' the minimum requirements, so inspection
is a breeze.


There *is* another issue regarding having 'unofficial' work done (or doing
it yourself). If/when, at some later date, it becomes necessary to have
some "official" work done, all sorts of 'organic waste impacts the rotary
impeller' -- when the prior, 'unofficial', work is discovered. This draws
violation notices, fines, forced pulling of _another_ permit for the prior
work, *and* whatever is necessary for the inspection -- potentially including
having to open up walls so the inspector can _see_ the conduit. AND, in
such a scenario, the inspectors won't cut you _any_ slack -- if there's a
way to disqualify the work, they _will_ do so.

On Wed, 05 May 2004 00:24:27 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

That may be true for wiring _you_ do. It is not necessarily so for
DIY by "somebody else"

I agree. I took great pains to make that clear.

Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong,
my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the
second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is
there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the
previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous
owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony.

"who" done it is immaterial.

I don't believe that is correct. However, I am in no position to argue
the point. I'll wait for the time to come when it becomes necessary.

If things are not consistent with the original permit, and there were no other
subsequent permits issued -- and yes, the city _does_ keep all that stuff on
file, _in_perpetuity_, including the plans that had to be filed with the
permit -- then the 'current owner' *does* have a problem. EVEN IF the work
was done in a 'code compliant manner'.

"Plans" are very general in nature. There will be locations indicated
of receptacles and fixtures and there may be notations regarding the
service to be installed (60A, 100A, 200A, for example), but there
won't be anything about Square D vs FPE or ITE. There won't be details
on whether receptacles were wired by drops from the top plate or runs
through the studs. There may not even be details such as half switched
receptacles, or additional circuits beyond those required by code.

Those things are done by the electrician as he commonly does them.
Granted, some techniques are more cost effective for the contractor
than others, but they aren't specified on the plan. Moreover, if the
owner/builder asked the electrician to add a couple of receptacles
here or there, the plan on which the permit was based wouldn't be
modified.

When the inspector gets there, he checks what was done to see that it
complies with code, but he doesn't carry the plans around to check
that the receptacles/fixtures/circuits installed are the same as
those specified on the plan that accompanied the permit app.

Both are circa 40 years ago.

One electrical example in 40 years; might as well be never.

(What *do* you call my father's brother's wife's brother?)

Uncle, probably, although he's not a direct relative.

I will do my own work, when I can. In my current domicile, a condo, by law,
I *cannot*. All plumbing and electrical work _must_ be done under the
direction of a licensed/ bonded professional. Makes sense -- a screw-up
has the potential to affect the _other_ owners in the building.

As a former president of the condo I lived in, I generally agree,
although I did some work in my unit, too, while I was there.

HOWEVER, when I've done work on a single-family property, I've always pulled
a permit, and had the work inspected. It's a relatively petty-cash
expenditure -- and, that way, *everybody*knows* the work was done right.
I tend to engineer 'above and beyond' the minimum requirements, so inspection
is a breeze.

I would have made that petty-cash expenditure, but when I went to
apply for the permit in the case of the new load center I put in, I
was told this community doesn't permit it. Bah.

There *is* another issue regarding having 'unofficial' work done (or doing
it yourself). If/when, at some later date, it becomes necessary to have
some "official" work done, all sorts of 'organic waste impacts the rotary
impeller' -- when the prior, 'unofficial', work is discovered.

Right. I hire an electrician to add a circuit. He pulls a permit, runs
the circuit, and has it inspected. The inspector doesn't bring out the
old plans (nor did the electrician) and compare to see that nothing's
changed from the original.

Now, if someone did something really obvious, like the live wire
connected to nothing that I found in a wall I demolished, that might
get an inquiry started.

As I said before, I don't advocate this for everyone, or anyone, for
that matter. But I know my limitations and how to accept a reasonable
risk.

Thanks for your thoughts.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Go ahead and put more than one in... otherwise you'll wind up in my
situation...

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...com%26rnum%3D1


) wrote in message om...
I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I
think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is
shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether
this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically
requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go?

In article ,
LRod wrote:
On Wed, 05 May 2004 00:24:27 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

That may be true for wiring _you_ do. It is not necessarily so for
DIY by "somebody else"

I agree. I took great pains to make that clear.

Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong,
my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the
second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is
there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the
previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous
owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony.

"who" done it is immaterial.

I don't believe that is correct. However, I am in no position to argue
the point. I'll wait for the time to come when it becomes necessary.

There are two separate issues. #1 is doing the work without a permit,
which gets the party doing the work in trouble. #2 is the _ongoing_
building code violation of 'having a non-compliant installation', or words
to that effect, which gets the *owner* of the property in trouble. That
violation starts from the day the work commences, and _continues_ until
the day that things are brought into compliance. ALMOST UNIVERSALLY,
the relevant laws state that "each day that such violation shall continue
shall be deemed a separate offense", usually in almost exactly those words.

It *is* the responsibility of the current owner to eliminate the code
violation, _regardless_ of when, or by whom, the violation was originally
committed.

If things are not consistent with the original permit, and there were no other
subsequent permits issued -- and yes, the city _does_ keep all that stuff on
file, _in_perpetuity_, including the plans that had to be filed with the
permit -- then the 'current owner' *does* have a problem. EVEN IF the work
was done in a 'code compliant manner'.

"Plans" are very general in nature. There will be locations indicated
of receptacles and fixtures and there may be notations regarding the
service to be installed (60A, 100A, 200A, for example), but there
won't be anything about Square D vs FPE or ITE. There won't be details
on whether receptacles were wired by drops from the top plate or runs
through the studs. There may not even be details such as half switched
receptacles, or additional circuits beyond those required by code.

You're correct. those things are not on the plans. They are in the
inspectors 'notes', made at the time of the 'rough in' inspection, before
the walls are sealed up.

'Number of circuits' is usually on the permit itself.

Those things are done by the electrician as he commonly does them.
Granted, some techniques are more cost effective for the contractor
than others, but they aren't specified on the plan. Moreover, if the
owner/builder asked the electrician to add a couple of receptacles
here or there, the plan on which the permit was based wouldn't be
modified.

When the inspector gets there, he checks what was done to see that it
complies with code, but he doesn't carry the plans around to check
that the receptacles/fixtures/circuits installed are the same as
those specified on the plan that accompanied the permit app.

I know, for instance, what is in the 'notes' on my kitchen remodel. The
inspector had questions as to why there were so many neutral wires running
into the panel -- more neutrals than circuits. Well, everything was wired
through a 'master junction box' below the panel (located in the kitchen), with
two outlets (one each on opposite walls) on each circuit. The hot lead was
spliced in the junction box, but the neutrals were a straight pass-through to
the main panel. Hence 1 hot and 2 neutrals for each circuit. Necessary for
code compliance requirement of a 'continuous' neutral back to the panel; well,
unless I wanted to wire up one wall, _and_back_, and then over to the other
wall.

Both are circa 40 years ago.

One electrical example in 40 years; might as well be never.

Hell, In my lifetime, I've only had 'direct knowledge' of _seven_ incidents
where somebody had to file a casualty-loss claim against their homeowner's
insurance. 3 plumbing, 1 electrical fire, another fire of unknown (to _me_
that is -- a lack of data) origin, and two cases of a house being damaged by
a tree falling on it. Of those seven case, TWO were denied by the insurer.
In _100%_ of those claim denied cases, 'construction without a permit' was
the causative basis for the denial.

Of those 7 claims cases that I have direct knowledge of -- because I knew the
homeowner involved (relative, neighbor, 'me'[in the case of 1 of the trees],
friend of the family, etc) -- they all occurred more than 20 years ago. I guess
that says something about my current circle of acquaintances. grin

It's not my business to keep track of such things for the world at large..

I'm sure there's better data available. I even know who would likely have it.
the "Property & Casualty Insurers Association of America", or the "Insurance
Information Institute". The data is probably available to any practicing
property & casualty underwriter.

I will do my own work, when I can. In my current domicile, a condo, by law,
I *cannot*. All plumbing and electrical work _must_ be done under the
direction of a licensed/ bonded professional. Makes sense -- a screw-up
has the potential to affect the _other_ owners in the building.

As a former president of the condo I lived in, I generally agree,
although I did some work in my unit, too, while I was there.

HOWEVER, when I've done work on a single-family property, I've always pulled
a permit, and had the work inspected. It's a relatively petty-cash
expenditure -- and, that way, *everybody*knows* the work was done right.
I tend to engineer 'above and beyond' the minimum requirements, so inspection
is a breeze.

I would have made that petty-cash expenditure, but when I went to
apply for the permit in the case of the new load center I put in, I
was told this community doesn't permit it. Bah.

There *is* another issue regarding having 'unofficial' work done (or doing
it yourself). If/when, at some later date, it becomes necessary to have
some "official" work done, all sorts of 'organic waste impacts the rotary
impeller' -- when the prior, 'unofficial', work is discovered.

Right. I hire an electrician to add a circuit. He pulls a permit, runs
the circuit, and has it inspected. The inspector doesn't bring out the
old plans (nor did the electrician) and compare to see that nothing's
changed from the original.

Actually, in most jurisdictions the permit fee is based on the number
of circuits and/or outlets to be added/replaced. when his records show
6 previous circuits, and there are now ten, you betcha the citation book
comes out. In the last 12 months, that precise thing has happened 3 times
in the building I live in.

The main intent of insurance claim denial is liability. Insurance
investigators are paid commissions on finding major liability shifts. They
do know their jobs. A permit for electrical modification / addition is
usually not too specific. 1 to 10 outlets, 10 to 25 outlets, 1 to 5 220 volt
outlets, etc. The inspection semi verifies that the work was done to local
codes and standards. ( The inspection agency will not assume any liability
for errors missed or not discovered. ) If a claim arises assuming from a
fire, The investigator along with the local fire marshal will determine the
cause. They will interview neighbors, friends etc. If it is possible that a
device has failed after proper installation and properly used, The
manufacture is liable. If the device is a newer design or code dated and the
last permit and inspection was dated prior to manufacture date, There is no
proof that it was properly installed, The installer is liable. If a device
is intentionally, illegally or improperly installed or used, The owner is
liable. If death or injury has occurred, Criminal liability would be also be
included. Of course all of this is subject to the court system.

Most of the electrical codes are common sense and safety oriented. Reviewed
and written by people involved in all aspects of electrical, fire and safety
fields, they are updated periodically to prevent problems as they are
discovered or introduced. Understood and followed, an installation should be
safe and trouble free. If one decides to DIY and they have any doubts, ASK
someone experienced.
--
Chipper Wood

useours, yours won't work

"Never Enough Money" wrote in message
om...
Go ahead and put more than one in... otherwise you'll wind up in my
situation...


http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...3Fq%3Dgroup:re
c.woodworking%2Binsubject:220%2Bauthor:Never%2Baut hor:Enough%2Bauthor:Money%
26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D2c1753d6.0403291643.1cd
4ea08%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D1


) wrote in message
om...
I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I
think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is
shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether
this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically
requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go?

Robert Bonomi wrote:

If things are not consistent with the original permit, and there were
no other subsequent permits issued -- and yes, the city _does_ keep
all that stuff on file, _in_perpetuity_, including the plans that had
to be filed with the permit -- then the 'current owner' *does* have a
problem. EVEN IF the work was done in a 'code compliant manner'.


I don't know about where you live, but where I live add on work, whether
done by the homeowner or by licensed individuals does not require any
additional paperwork or permits as long it does not exceed a certain size or
scope. So, the records in city hall will not reflect a wide spectrum of
work over a period of years.
--

-Mike-

In article et,
Mike Marlow wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

If things are not consistent with the original permit, and there were
no other subsequent permits issued -- and yes, the city _does_ keep
all that stuff on file, _in_perpetuity_, including the plans that had
to be filed with the permit -- then the 'current owner' *does* have a
problem. EVEN IF the work was done in a 'code compliant manner'.


I don't know about where you live, but where I live add on work, whether
done by the homeowner or by licensed individuals does not require any
additional paperwork or permits as long it does not exceed a certain size or
scope. So, the records in city hall will not reflect a wide spectrum of
work over a period of years.

Some kinds of work require a permit, some don't. running electrical wiring
almost invariably does, while replacing an outlet or fixture almost always
does -not-.

If work is 'discovered' as having been done *without* a permit, and is of
a type _that_requires_a_permit_, the current owner of the property *does*
have a problem on his hands.

With regards to plans being kept in perpetuity by the local
juridiction, that's not true everywhere. In fact, I know that mine
tosses plans after six months. That's what the head of the building
department (a buddy) told me. He said it would be physically
impossible for them to keep them in perpetuity. "How many warehouse's
are we going to devote to that? Just look around at the construction
going on every day."

Another consideration to think about. Have you noticed that
electrical wire now comes with a date stamp on the outer jacket.
Unless you have some old stock, it's going to be real easy to know
that the work was done after a certain time frame.

So I suppose if you had kept a roll of wire from a previously
permitted job, you could install it later and claim that it had been
done at the same time. I'm just not sure it's worth the possible
problems.

If they'll permit you to do the work as the home owner, and the fee
isn't steep, I'd get the permit.

BTW, just because an inspector signs off on work does not mean that it
is up to code. It is common in my area for the inspectors to get lazy
and treat a long term contractor as infallible. "Joe Blow does good
work, and we never have a problem with his work."

I did an extensive remodel a few years ago, and it wasn't until I
started pointing out the mistakes that the inspector decided that the
contractor wasn't quite as good as he had thought. Well guess what,
part of the cost of the permit was for an inspection not a rubber
stamp. Make sure you get your money's worth.


) wrote in message om...
I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I
think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is
shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether
this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically
requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go?