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#1
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached
garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go? |
#2
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
strictly speaking, sure you 'should' get a permit. Do most
people? NO! Even changing a water heater in San Jose "requires" a permit, but almost no one does it... dave wrote: I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go? |
#3
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
Depends on where you are and the regulations in your state or province. I
know in Ontario you can do it but then it should be inspected afterwards by the electrical inspector. Rick -- webservant for Web design for churches http://www.gibs-web.ca Wycliffe Bible Translators Caribbean http://www.wycliffecaribbean.org Journaling / mental health http://www.pipcom.com/~jpeacock/ Bothwell Baptist Church http://www.forministry.com/CAONBCOOQBBC1 wrote in message m... I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go? |
#4
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
Check with your local building department. If you don't have one then you
probably don't need one. Then you need to consider your home owners insurance. Stupidity is usually covered, but doing your own electrical work may not be if it's not up to code. If you don't have local codes, then make sure it adhears to NEC. One level short of doing it all yourself, you could run the wire yourself and have an electrician make the connections. This will cut down on the billable hours and save cost. wrote in message m... I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go? |
#7
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
LRod wrote:
do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one will ever know; certainly not my insurer. I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code? -Rick |
#8
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson
wrote: LRod wrote: do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one will ever know; certainly not my insurer. I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code? That's precisely the scenario to which I refer. First keep in mind that due to my knowledge and craftsmanship (I'm not being arrogant here, just factual) the wiring is no more likely to be the cause than the original electrician's. Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong, my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony. We're getting into the "dust-explosion-in-plastic-pipe" arena here. There is also a hot topic that flares up periodically on rec.food.equipment regarding the installation of a commercial range in a residence and how it relates to insurance. Most of it, and this electrical-wiring-without-a-permit scenario is urban legend, in my opinion. I don't believe an insurer is going to dispute my claim based on what a previous owner may or may not have done 25 years ago, unless it's something obviously wrong. In fact, I'll issue the same challenge on this subject that I have in the past on the plastic pipe thing: cite one verifiable example of a home fire caused by faulty wiring in which an insurance carrier denied a claim because of lack of documentation of proper permiting and inspection. If that can be accomplished, I'll never post a response on an electrical question again. I'm not suggesting anyone go out and wire away willy-nilly. I am saying that doing electrical work to the same standard or above as a licensed electrician is an extremely low risk that *I* am willing to take on *my* property. - - LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net |
#9
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
Thanks for the reply. I wasn't trying to challenge or argue with you
about this point, I was just genuinely curious as I don't know jack about that type of stuff. Another option I thought of if they did happen to ask for documentation is to reply, "Yes, I keep all the documentation in that desk right there" then point to the smouldering pile of ashes G. Similar situation came up last weekend at my Dad's house. The city painted a big white X across a joint in the sidewalk and sent him a notice telling him he had so many days to fix the 1/2" lip between the two sections of sidewalk. Dad had me bring out my floor jack, and he had his floor jack, a bunch of chain, steel pipe, sand, etc. I told him "Dad, we don't need all this crap, all we need is some carburator cleaner and a can of white spray paint - move the X down 30 feet to a level section of sidewalk and tell them to come inspect it whenever they please". -Rick LRod wrote: On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson wrote: LRod wrote: do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one will ever know; certainly not my insurer. I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code? That's precisely the scenario to which I refer. First keep in mind that due to my knowledge and craftsmanship (I'm not being arrogant here, just factual) the wiring is no more likely to be the cause than the original electrician's. Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong, my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony. We're getting into the "dust-explosion-in-plastic-pipe" arena here. There is also a hot topic that flares up periodically on rec.food.equipment regarding the installation of a commercial range in a residence and how it relates to insurance. Most of it, and this electrical-wiring-without-a-permit scenario is urban legend, in my opinion. I don't believe an insurer is going to dispute my claim based on what a previous owner may or may not have done 25 years ago, unless it's something obviously wrong. In fact, I'll issue the same challenge on this subject that I have in the past on the plastic pipe thing: cite one verifiable example of a home fire caused by faulty wiring in which an insurance carrier denied a claim because of lack of documentation of proper permiting and inspection. If that can be accomplished, I'll never post a response on an electrical question again. I'm not suggesting anyone go out and wire away willy-nilly. I am saying that doing electrical work to the same standard or above as a licensed electrician is an extremely low risk that *I* am willing to take on *my* property. - - LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net |
#10
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
In article ,
LRod wrote: On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson wrote: LRod wrote: do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one will ever know; certainly not my insurer. I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code? That's precisely the scenario to which I refer. First keep in mind that due to my knowledge and craftsmanship (I'm not being arrogant here, just factual) the wiring is no more likely to be the cause than the original electrician's. That may be true for wiring _you_ do. It is not necessarily so for DIY by "somebody else" Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong, my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony. "who" done it is immaterial. If things are not consistent with the original permit, and there were no other subsequent permits issued -- and yes, the city _does_ keep all that stuff on file, _in_perpetuity_, including the plans that had to be filed with the permit -- then the 'current owner' *does* have a problem. EVEN IF the work was done in a 'code compliant manner'. We're getting into the "dust-explosion-in-plastic-pipe" arena here. There is also a hot topic that flares up periodically on rec.food.equipment regarding the installation of a commercial range in a residence and how it relates to insurance. Most of it, and this electrical-wiring-without-a-permit scenario is urban legend, in my opinion. Well, so much for "your opinion". I have _direct_ knowledge of *two* cases where insurers _did_ reject a claim on the basis of 'illegal' (i.e., non-permit) work. Both are circa 40 years ago. One was plumbing-related, the other electrical. In the plumbing case, the work had been done during the prior owner's tenure. When the pipe burst (freeze up, many years later), the 'truth came out', and the owner was himself stuck for all the damages. In the electrical case, the then-current owner had had the work done 'informally', by an ex-"Navy SeeBee" buddy. A fire did occur. Direct cause was a failing electrical cord (one of the old cloth-covered variety) on an appliance. Plugged into one of the 'illegal' outlets that the SeeBee had done. "Somebody" had told him he didn't need a permit if he wasn't getting paid for the work. OOPS! Expensive lesson for my 'chimney-corner' relative, the home-owner. (What *do* you call my father's brother's wife's brother?) I don't believe an insurer is going to dispute my claim based on what a previous owner may or may not have done 25 years ago, unless it's something obviously wrong. In fact, I'll issue the same challenge on this subject that I have in the past on the plastic pipe thing: cite one verifiable example of a home fire caused by faulty wiring in which an insurance carrier denied a claim because of lack of documentation of proper permiting and inspection. If that can be accomplished, I'll never post a response on an electrical question again. I'm not suggesting anyone go out and wire away willy-nilly. I am saying that doing electrical work to the same standard or above as a licensed electrician is an extremely low risk that *I* am willing to take on *my* property. I will do my own work, when I can. In my current domicile, a condo, by law, I *cannot*. All plumbing and electrical work _must_ be done under the direction of a licensed/ bonded professional. Makes sense -- a screw-up has the potential to affect the _other_ owners in the building. (For my recent kitchen re-model, I found a really _good_ guy (semi-retired), who vetted what I was going to do, pulled the permit, and let me do all the 'grunt work'. Even loaned me some of his tools. And, he _was_ on hand for the 'critical' work, like splicing the new breaker panel onto the mains. HOWEVER, when I've done work on a single-family property, I've always pulled a permit, and had the work inspected. It's a relatively petty-cash expenditure -- and, that way, *everybody*knows* the work was done right. I tend to engineer 'above and beyond' the minimum requirements, so inspection is a breeze. There *is* another issue regarding having 'unofficial' work done (or doing it yourself). If/when, at some later date, it becomes necessary to have some "official" work done, all sorts of 'organic waste impacts the rotary impeller' -- when the prior, 'unofficial', work is discovered. This draws violation notices, fines, forced pulling of _another_ permit for the prior work, *and* whatever is necessary for the inspection -- potentially including having to open up walls so the inspector can _see_ the conduit. AND, in such a scenario, the inspectors won't cut you _any_ slack -- if there's a way to disqualify the work, they _will_ do so. |
#11
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson wrote:
I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code? Yes - every fire I've responded to that involved an insurance loss has resulted in the insurance company's fire investigator, in addition to usually the state fire martial if the fire involves "enough" damage and/or a fatality. These guys are motivated to find out that there is someone else who has to pay for the damage, be it the builder, or the owner for doing something dangerous, etc. Dave Hinz (firefighter/EMT) |
#12
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
Go ahead and put more than one in... otherwise you'll wind up in my
situation... http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...com%26rnum%3D1 ) wrote in message om... I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go? |
#13
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
The main intent of insurance claim denial is liability. Insurance
investigators are paid commissions on finding major liability shifts. They do know their jobs. A permit for electrical modification / addition is usually not too specific. 1 to 10 outlets, 10 to 25 outlets, 1 to 5 220 volt outlets, etc. The inspection semi verifies that the work was done to local codes and standards. ( The inspection agency will not assume any liability for errors missed or not discovered. ) If a claim arises assuming from a fire, The investigator along with the local fire marshal will determine the cause. They will interview neighbors, friends etc. If it is possible that a device has failed after proper installation and properly used, The manufacture is liable. If the device is a newer design or code dated and the last permit and inspection was dated prior to manufacture date, There is no proof that it was properly installed, The installer is liable. If a device is intentionally, illegally or improperly installed or used, The owner is liable. If death or injury has occurred, Criminal liability would be also be included. Of course all of this is subject to the court system. Most of the electrical codes are common sense and safety oriented. Reviewed and written by people involved in all aspects of electrical, fire and safety fields, they are updated periodically to prevent problems as they are discovered or introduced. Understood and followed, an installation should be safe and trouble free. If one decides to DIY and they have any doubts, ASK someone experienced. -- Chipper Wood useours, yours won't work "Never Enough Money" wrote in message om... Go ahead and put more than one in... otherwise you'll wind up in my situation... http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...3Fq%3Dgroup:re c.woodworking%2Binsubject:220%2Bauthor:Never%2Baut hor:Enough%2Bauthor:Money% 26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D2c1753d6.0403291643.1cd 4ea08%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D1 ) wrote in message om... I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go? |
#14
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Running a 220 receptacle to garage
With regards to plans being kept in perpetuity by the local
juridiction, that's not true everywhere. In fact, I know that mine tosses plans after six months. That's what the head of the building department (a buddy) told me. He said it would be physically impossible for them to keep them in perpetuity. "How many warehouse's are we going to devote to that? Just look around at the construction going on every day." Another consideration to think about. Have you noticed that electrical wire now comes with a date stamp on the outer jacket. Unless you have some old stock, it's going to be real easy to know that the work was done after a certain time frame. So I suppose if you had kept a roll of wire from a previously permitted job, you could install it later and claim that it had been done at the same time. I'm just not sure it's worth the possible problems. If they'll permit you to do the work as the home owner, and the fee isn't steep, I'd get the permit. BTW, just because an inspector signs off on work does not mean that it is up to code. It is common in my area for the inspectors to get lazy and treat a long term contractor as infallible. "Joe Blow does good work, and we never have a problem with his work." I did an extensive remodel a few years ago, and it wasn't until I started pointing out the mistakes that the inspector decided that the contractor wasn't quite as good as he had thought. Well guess what, part of the cost of the permit was for an inspection not a rubber stamp. Make sure you get your money's worth. ) wrote in message om... I've got a new saw coming Friday, and I need to run 220 to my attached garage. I just want the one receptacle. Having read enough on it, I think it's well within my home improvement skills (my wife, OTOH, is shopping for funeral wear.) The only thing I don't know is whether this is something I'm allowed to DIY. Is it something that typically requires a permit? Inspection? Or can I just do it and go? |
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