In article ,
LRod wrote:
On Wed, 05 May 2004 00:24:27 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

That may be true for wiring _you_ do. It is not necessarily so for
DIY by "somebody else"

I agree. I took great pains to make that clear.

Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong,
my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the
second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is
there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the
previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous
owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony.

"who" done it is immaterial.

I don't believe that is correct. However, I am in no position to argue
the point. I'll wait for the time to come when it becomes necessary.

There are two separate issues. #1 is doing the work without a permit,
which gets the party doing the work in trouble. #2 is the _ongoing_
building code violation of 'having a non-compliant installation', or words
to that effect, which gets the *owner* of the property in trouble. That
violation starts from the day the work commences, and _continues_ until
the day that things are brought into compliance. ALMOST UNIVERSALLY,
the relevant laws state that "each day that such violation shall continue
shall be deemed a separate offense", usually in almost exactly those words.

It *is* the responsibility of the current owner to eliminate the code
violation, _regardless_ of when, or by whom, the violation was originally
committed.

If things are not consistent with the original permit, and there were no other
subsequent permits issued -- and yes, the city _does_ keep all that stuff on
file, _in_perpetuity_, including the plans that had to be filed with the
permit -- then the 'current owner' *does* have a problem. EVEN IF the work
was done in a 'code compliant manner'.

"Plans" are very general in nature. There will be locations indicated
of receptacles and fixtures and there may be notations regarding the
service to be installed (60A, 100A, 200A, for example), but there
won't be anything about Square D vs FPE or ITE. There won't be details
on whether receptacles were wired by drops from the top plate or runs
through the studs. There may not even be details such as half switched
receptacles, or additional circuits beyond those required by code.

You're correct. those things are not on the plans. They are in the
inspectors 'notes', made at the time of the 'rough in' inspection, before
the walls are sealed up.

'Number of circuits' is usually on the permit itself.

Those things are done by the electrician as he commonly does them.
Granted, some techniques are more cost effective for the contractor
than others, but they aren't specified on the plan. Moreover, if the
owner/builder asked the electrician to add a couple of receptacles
here or there, the plan on which the permit was based wouldn't be
modified.

When the inspector gets there, he checks what was done to see that it
complies with code, but he doesn't carry the plans around to check
that the receptacles/fixtures/circuits installed are the same as
those specified on the plan that accompanied the permit app.

I know, for instance, what is in the 'notes' on my kitchen remodel. The
inspector had questions as to why there were so many neutral wires running
into the panel -- more neutrals than circuits. Well, everything was wired
through a 'master junction box' below the panel (located in the kitchen), with
two outlets (one each on opposite walls) on each circuit. The hot lead was
spliced in the junction box, but the neutrals were a straight pass-through to
the main panel. Hence 1 hot and 2 neutrals for each circuit. Necessary for
code compliance requirement of a 'continuous' neutral back to the panel; well,
unless I wanted to wire up one wall, _and_back_, and then over to the other
wall.

Both are circa 40 years ago.

One electrical example in 40 years; might as well be never.

Hell, In my lifetime, I've only had 'direct knowledge' of _seven_ incidents
where somebody had to file a casualty-loss claim against their homeowner's
insurance. 3 plumbing, 1 electrical fire, another fire of unknown (to _me_
that is -- a lack of data) origin, and two cases of a house being damaged by
a tree falling on it. Of those seven case, TWO were denied by the insurer.
In _100%_ of those claim denied cases, 'construction without a permit' was
the causative basis for the denial.

Of those 7 claims cases that I have direct knowledge of -- because I knew the
homeowner involved (relative, neighbor, 'me'[in the case of 1 of the trees],
friend of the family, etc) -- they all occurred more than 20 years ago. I guess
that says something about my current circle of acquaintances. grin

It's not my business to keep track of such things for the world at large..

I'm sure there's better data available. I even know who would likely have it.
the "Property & Casualty Insurers Association of America", or the "Insurance
Information Institute". The data is probably available to any practicing
property & casualty underwriter.

I will do my own work, when I can. In my current domicile, a condo, by law,
I *cannot*. All plumbing and electrical work _must_ be done under the
direction of a licensed/ bonded professional. Makes sense -- a screw-up
has the potential to affect the _other_ owners in the building.

As a former president of the condo I lived in, I generally agree,
although I did some work in my unit, too, while I was there.

HOWEVER, when I've done work on a single-family property, I've always pulled
a permit, and had the work inspected. It's a relatively petty-cash
expenditure -- and, that way, *everybody*knows* the work was done right.
I tend to engineer 'above and beyond' the minimum requirements, so inspection
is a breeze.

I would have made that petty-cash expenditure, but when I went to
apply for the permit in the case of the new load center I put in, I
was told this community doesn't permit it. Bah.

There *is* another issue regarding having 'unofficial' work done (or doing
it yourself). If/when, at some later date, it becomes necessary to have
some "official" work done, all sorts of 'organic waste impacts the rotary
impeller' -- when the prior, 'unofficial', work is discovered.

Right. I hire an electrician to add a circuit. He pulls a permit, runs
the circuit, and has it inspected. The inspector doesn't bring out the
old plans (nor did the electrician) and compare to see that nothing's
changed from the original.

Actually, in most jurisdictions the permit fee is based on the number
of circuits and/or outlets to be added/replaced. when his records show
6 previous circuits, and there are now ten, you betcha the citation book
comes out. In the last 12 months, that precise thing has happened 3 times
in the building I live in.