In article ,
LRod wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:59:19 -0700, Rick Nelson
wrote:

LRod wrote:

do). I did it myself. Safely, within code, but undocumented. No one
will ever know; certainly not my insurer.

I'm not second guessing your skills, but what if a fire occured and the
fire chief determined it was due to the wiring? Wouldn't the insurance
company send an inspector out to look at the wiring and possibly ask for
some documentation proving that the wiring was certified within code?

That's precisely the scenario to which I refer. First keep in mind
that due to my knowledge and craftsmanship (I'm not being arrogant
here, just factual) the wiring is no more likely to be the cause than
the original electrician's.

That may be true for wiring _you_ do. It is not necessarily so for
DIY by "somebody else"

Getting past that to the possibility that *anything* could go wrong,
my house is more than 30 years old, I am the third owner, and the
second owner lived in it for more than 25 years. What documentation is
there going to be? Possibly the original permit, but what did the
previous two owners do and is it documented? The immediately previous
owner is deceased, so unavailable for testimony.

"who" done it is immaterial.

If things are not consistent with the original permit, and there were no other
subsequent permits issued -- and yes, the city _does_ keep all that stuff on
file, _in_perpetuity_, including the plans that had to be filed with the
permit -- then the 'current owner' *does* have a problem. EVEN IF the work
was done in a 'code compliant manner'.

We're getting into the "dust-explosion-in-plastic-pipe" arena here.
There is also a hot topic that flares up periodically on
rec.food.equipment regarding the installation of a commercial range in
a residence and how it relates to insurance. Most of it, and this
electrical-wiring-without-a-permit scenario is urban legend, in my
opinion.

Well, so much for "your opinion". I have _direct_ knowledge of *two*
cases where insurers _did_ reject a claim on the basis of 'illegal' (i.e.,
non-permit) work. Both are circa 40 years ago. One was plumbing-related,
the other electrical. In the plumbing case, the work had been done during
the prior owner's tenure. When the pipe burst (freeze up, many years later),
the 'truth came out', and the owner was himself stuck for all the damages.
In the electrical case, the then-current owner had had the work done
'informally', by an ex-"Navy SeeBee" buddy. A fire did occur. Direct cause
was a failing electrical cord (one of the old cloth-covered variety) on an
appliance. Plugged into one of the 'illegal' outlets that the SeeBee had
done. "Somebody" had told him he didn't need a permit if he wasn't getting
paid for the work. OOPS! Expensive lesson for my 'chimney-corner'
relative, the home-owner. (What *do* you call my father's brother's wife's
brother?)

I don't believe an insurer is going to dispute my claim based on what
a previous owner may or may not have done 25 years ago, unless it's
something obviously wrong. In fact, I'll issue the same challenge on
this subject that I have in the past on the plastic pipe thing: cite
one verifiable example of a home fire caused by faulty wiring in which
an insurance carrier denied a claim because of lack of documentation
of proper permiting and inspection. If that can be accomplished, I'll
never post a response on an electrical question again.

I'm not suggesting anyone go out and wire away willy-nilly. I am
saying that doing electrical work to the same standard or above as a
licensed electrician is an extremely low risk that *I* am willing to
take on *my* property.


I will do my own work, when I can. In my current domicile, a condo, by law,
I *cannot*. All plumbing and electrical work _must_ be done under the
direction of a licensed/ bonded professional. Makes sense -- a screw-up
has the potential to affect the _other_ owners in the building. (For my
recent kitchen re-model, I found a really _good_ guy (semi-retired), who
vetted what I was going to do, pulled the permit, and let me do all the
'grunt work'. Even loaned me some of his tools. And, he _was_ on hand
for the 'critical' work, like splicing the new breaker panel onto the mains.


HOWEVER, when I've done work on a single-family property, I've always pulled
a permit, and had the work inspected. It's a relatively petty-cash
expenditure -- and, that way, *everybody*knows* the work was done right.
I tend to engineer 'above and beyond' the minimum requirements, so inspection
is a breeze.


There *is* another issue regarding having 'unofficial' work done (or doing
it yourself). If/when, at some later date, it becomes necessary to have
some "official" work done, all sorts of 'organic waste impacts the rotary
impeller' -- when the prior, 'unofficial', work is discovered. This draws
violation notices, fines, forced pulling of _another_ permit for the prior
work, *and* whatever is necessary for the inspection -- potentially including
having to open up walls so the inspector can _see_ the conduit. AND, in
such a scenario, the inspectors won't cut you _any_ slack -- if there's a
way to disqualify the work, they _will_ do so.