I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to be
kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How concerned
should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will be
even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Bill wrote:
I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to be
kerosene, propane and electric.

I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How concerned
should I be about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will be
even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Solar - no fuel, no fumes, no condensation, and always warm.

(Very biased opinion)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

"Bill" wrote in message
...

I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to
be kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How concerned
should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will be
even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Bill I found that garage doors can be very drafty. With a draft you may
never warm it up. About 10 years ago I replaced my garage door with a Wayne
Dalton insulated door, expanding foam between an outer and inner steel
layer. Additionally the door has weather stripping around the perimeter to
prevent drafts. I find that a small 1500 watt ceramic electric heater can
warm the garage to comfortable in about 10 minutes. Other than the door
that faces north, the garage is not insulated except on the back wall which
separates it from the rest of the house. I worked in a large ware house
that used 2 kerosene heaters, they in no way are ever close to warming the
building. They did provide a warm spot to take the chill off but I recall
the fumes gave most every one a head ache.

PDQ wrote:

Would that I could afford the 70-80K solar option to be totally off the grid.

Hmm. When a whole beef would strain the budget, I can generally get by
with a couple pounds of hamburger and a steak or two...

Think of it this way, if you were totally off the grid, you'd have a lot
more stuff with inflexible maintenance requirements.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

In ,
Bill dropped this bit of wisdom:
I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an
(electric) insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options
appear to be kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How
concerned should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal
will be even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Am I to assume that natural gas is not available to you?

Probably electric is the 2nd most expensive and propane the most expensive.

Kerosene is, for me, the hardest to find.

P D Q

In article ,
"Bill" wrote:

I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to be
kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How concerned
should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will be
even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Are the walls and ceiling insulated? If it's like most garages
(uninsulated), adding some would likely not be a bad idea, and would
help cut down on condensation some. It would also significantly lower
the cost of heating, if the heating is used much. Ditto on tightening
up the worst of the cracks and leaks around the garage door and windows.

Any sort of combustion you have going on in the garage that is not
vented to the outside will produce water vapor and CO2 (and, if
combustion isn't complete, CO). In many garages, this isn't necessarily
a great concern, as there is often a fair amount of air leakage
generally and so these gasses don't have too much chance to collect.
This also makes them difficult to heat. I'd still tend to prefer
heaters that are vented to the outside (or electric, which of course
doesn't produce combustion byproducts), to avoid possible problems, and
open flames are probably best avoided in a workshop where there may be a
bunch of sawdust floating around.

I wouldn't think that heating up air without adding moisture would lead
to many condensation problems in general, since the relative humidity of
the air is decreasing; certainly, it would be less than with an unvented
heater. However, that's more semi-informed speculation than practical
knowledge, so don't put overly much faith in it.

Are wood or wood pellet heat reasonable options for you? Around here,
at least, they'd be cheaper than LP or electric and probably kerosene.
Wood pellets are fairly clean and easy to deal with, especially when
compared with raw wood. One of these would probably be my first choice
if I had this dilemma. A close second choice would be scouting out an
inexpensive (possibly used) small domestic hot-air furnace and putting
that in a corner with minimal ductwork but of course proper venting and
letting it rip--either gas or oil/kerosene, whichever I could find and
get running safely the most easily and cheaply. I would definitely have
a big air filter on the cold air intake for the circulating blower, and
keep it reasonably clean.

--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot

Bill wrote:
I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an
(electric) insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options
appear to be kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How
concerned should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal
will be even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Warm it up to 60 from what? 58? 29? 0? -15?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Nov 2, 1:52*pm, "Bill" wrote:
I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') *2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? *Options appear to be
kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. *How concerned
should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. *Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will be
even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Bill:
I have heated a 700 sf, and more recently a 1,040 sf garage with
kerosene with pretty good success. The current garage is very well
insulated with 6" walls and about R30 blown above the 10' ceiling. My
eventual plan, with this new house, is to hang a natural gas furnace
from the ceiling but I haven't gotten around to that. The plumbing is
there but no furnace yet. A few years ago I did look into propane and
the same amount of heat was going to be substantially higher in our
area (Kansas).

If you go with kerosene, shop for prices. The big box and hardware
store sell kerosene at obscene prices. The pre-packaged 2 and 5
gallon cans are as much as $8/gallon in this area. We buy ours from a
local farm co op in the $2.50 to $3.00 range. Another local gas and
petroleum distributor sells it at a slightly lower price but the
longer drive isn't worth it. Again, shop around for good prices
before you commit to the fuel. We use a 17,500 btu kero-sun type of
heater. I also use a small electric cube heater to supplement it.
Some milder mornings (30 degrees or above) I can bring the temp up in
the garage with both, then turn the Kerosene heater off for a while or
all day.

If you use kerosene or any open flame you need to keep the shop,
especially the area around the heater, clean. Blow the dust off and
out of the heater from time to time. When I get ready to use
flammable substances such as finishes or solvents I TURN IT OFF
several minutes before I start and let the electric heater do the work
until fumes are gone.

If you can at all, install a permanent natural gas heater but install
it well above the floor. Some codes require flame devices at least 2
feet above a garage floor and 4 feet would be better.

RonB

I use to work in my garage(two car with insulated walls and door.) I used a
propane heater attached to a small propane bottle(the type you use for a gas
grill).it would heat up the room in about ten minutes and would last me a
week(you need to turn it down after heating the room up) With no odor and
minimum fuss it worked for me.I would try to insulate the walls(it is fairly
easy to do,I weigh nearly 400lbs and I did it myself over a couple days).


Len

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an
(electric) insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options
appear to be kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How
concerned should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal
will be even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Warm it up to 60 from what? 58? 29? 0? -15?


Sorry, I accidentally edited out the part about being in the middle of
Indiana. Say, 20 to 30 degrees Fahrenheit.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

In ,
Morris Dovey dropped this bit of wisdom:
Bill wrote:
I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an
(electric) insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options
appear to be kerosene, propane and electric.

I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How
concerned should I be about exhaust fumes (at this point, they
concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal
will be even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Solar - no fuel, no fumes, no condensation, and always warm.

(Very biased opinion)

I agree with you ---- on both points VBG

Would that I could afford the 70-80K solar option to be totally off the grid.

P D Q

"Bill" wrote in message
...

I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an
(electric) insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options
appear to be kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How
concerned should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected
metal will be even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill


Assuming that you will be making sure the building is pretty tight
and insulated, I'd consider a forced air LP-fired suspended
heater. It would vent through the roof and the blower would
circulate the heated air around the shop. If you're going to use
it just occasionally, then consider adding a timer or on demand
control to the t-stat to let you fire it up just before you get
there.

One of our people had a pretty good sized garage up in a snow-belt
area and despite all the insulation and sealing, his car would
still have huge chunks of snow and ice on it the next morning. He
solved the problem nicely with a suspended gas fired heater and a
timer. He'd pull into the garage and hit the timer. The garage
would warm nicely, aided by the already-hot car engine, and the
ice would melt off the car. About an hour or so later, the
interval timer would shut the heat off.

He used this for the first winter, then made a change: the next
winter, a timer turned the heater on at 5:00a and off after he
departed. That way, he had a warm and comfortable car to drive to
work.


--
Nonny

Have you ever wondered if the bills
in your wallet were ever in a stripper's butt crack?
Have a nice day ..

On 2009-11-02, Bill wrote:

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to be
kerosene, propane and electric.

Price is a prime factor. Kerosene is a non-issue, having climbed from
approx $1.50 gal 10-15 yrs ago to an astonishing $10 gal!! I couldn't
even give away my 25K BTU almost-new kerosene htr. Can't say about
nat-gas. Ditto electricity. OTOH, I've seen propane drop almost 60%
in price in last 2 yrs. Savings! Plus, propane burns hotter than
nat-gas.

As for the fumes, I'm still researching that, myself. I'm in CO
Rockies at 8K ft and it's an early Winter. Get up, light all 4
burners on stove, plus oven. Have never suffered headaches or
shortness of breath (knock on wood), although a pretty tight abode. I
had (past tense) a Reddy propane space heater and feel space heaters
do not combust efficiently, so there may be issues with propane space
htr fumes more than other types of more efficient propane heaters. In
the end, I'd go propane.

An overhead fan, of some sort, is almost a necessity. Hot air rises.
Even an inexpensive ceiling fan will bring that hot air down to you
before you spend twice the money to heat the whole building from the
top down.

Also, consider a digital thermostat and how often you will be using
the place. It's my feeling it's cheaper to keep a place warm than to
let it go cold and then re-warm it, another thing I'm still
researching (I missed thermodynamics in college). Maybe someone will
elaborate.

Just observations from a former sweat-my-ass-off CA expat now living
in frigid CO ....and loving it!!

nb

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote in message
...

I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to
be kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How concerned
should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will
be even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Bill I found that garage doors can be very drafty. With a draft you may
never warm it up. About 10 years ago I replaced my garage door with a
Wayne Dalton insulated door, expanding foam between an outer and inner
steel layer. Additionally the door has weather stripping around the
perimeter to prevent drafts. I find that a small 1500 watt ceramic
electric heater can warm the garage to comfortable in about 10 minutes.
Other than the door that faces north, the garage is not insulated except
on the back wall which separates it from the rest of the house. I worked
in a large ware house that used 2 kerosene heaters, they in no way are
ever close to warming the building. They did provide a warm spot to take
the chill off but I recall the fumes gave most every one a head ache.


Thank you to everyone for your replies. The ceiling is partially-insulated,
but the walls
are not (except for the one which is attached to the house). Maybe I'll add
some to the ceiling.
Gas is nearby; my hot water heater uses it, but that's all. I'm not a big
fan of NG.
Since you've convinced me that a propane furnace without proper ventilation
is unsafe,
an electric heater seems the more practical for the time being. I'll read
all of the posts
again, thank you!

Bill

PDQ wrote:

In ,
Morris Dovey dropped this bit of wisdom:
PDQ wrote:

Would that I could afford the 70-80K solar option to be totally off
the grid.

Now, if you have any pocket pleasing ideas on how to turn my 70 foot south roof into a viable solar collector, "Lay on MacDuff".

It's possible to DIY the PV panels, and there are a number of good
articles on the web with step-by-step how-to info - but the requisite
charge controller, batteries, and inverter still aren't cheap.

For the panels themselves, the silicon and solder are available on eBay,
the wood and glass can be purchased locally - and the enclosures can be
built by an average woodworker. I was tempted to build a couple of 4'x8'
panels, just for the heck of it - but decided that my money would be
better spent on another (solar thermal pump) project.

I'll repeat for both you and Bill: for the cash spent, solar thermal
applications (such as heating) provide the best return on investment -
and offer, if not total energy independence, at least a satisfying
reduction in dependence and operating costs.

If you're really eager to get off the grid, I can probably re-find some
of the PV how-to web pages...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

In ,
Morris Dovey dropped this bit of wisdom:
PDQ wrote:

Would that I could afford the 70-80K solar option to be totally off
the grid.

Hmm. When a whole beef would strain the budget, I can generally get by
with a couple pounds of hamburger and a steak or two...

Usually, I found that a pile of steaks cost almost as much as a whole beef and I did not get all the parts that people are not supposed to eat - liver, kidney, heart and I never did acquire a taste for tripe.


Think of it this way, if you were totally off the grid, you'd have a
lot more stuff with inflexible maintenance requirements.

With the advent of "Smart" meters, I now have to schedule my dish and clothes washing for the midnight hour so as to be using "cheap" hydro. When the utilities figure out what is happening, they will up the rates to make up for the lost income and I will have to resort to other means of keeping my costs down -- maybe a rock in the river and my wife up to her neck in the stream.

Now, if you have any pocket pleasing ideas on how to turn my 70 foot south roof into a viable solar collector, "Lay on MacDuff".

P D Q

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
PDQ wrote:

In ,
Morris Dovey dropped this bit of wisdom:
PDQ wrote:

Would that I could afford the 70-80K solar option to be totally off
the grid.

Now, if you have any pocket pleasing ideas on how to turn my 70 foot
south roof into a viable solar collector, "Lay on MacDuff".

It's possible to DIY the PV panels, and there are a number of good
articles on the web with step-by-step how-to info - but the requisite
charge controller, batteries, and inverter still aren't cheap.

For the panels themselves, the silicon and solder are available on eBay,
the wood and glass can be purchased locally - and the enclosures can be
built by an average woodworker. I was tempted to build a couple of 4'x8'
panels, just for the heck of it - but decided that my money would be
better spent on another (solar thermal pump) project.

I'll repeat for both you and Bill: for the cash spent, solar thermal
applications (such as heating) provide the best return on investment - and
offer, if not total energy independence, at least a satisfying reduction
in dependence and operating costs.

Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Interesting idea...I won't rule out the possibility of using solar power
someday.
My dad would have been interested--he was quite environmentally-concious.

Bill

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Nov 2, 5:15 pm, "Bill" wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message

...







"Bill" wrote in message
...

I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an
(electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear
to
be kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How
concerned
should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will
be even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Bill I found that garage doors can be very drafty. With a draft you may
never warm it up. About 10 years ago I replaced my garage door with a
Wayne Dalton insulated door, expanding foam between an outer and inner
steel layer. Additionally the door has weather stripping around the
perimeter to prevent drafts. I find that a small 1500 watt ceramic
electric heater can warm the garage to comfortable in about 10 minutes.
Other than the door that faces north, the garage is not insulated except
on the back wall which separates it from the rest of the house. I worked
in a large ware house that used 2 kerosene heaters, they in no way are
ever close to warming the building. They did provide a warm spot to take
the chill off but I recall the fumes gave most every one a head ache.

Thank you to everyone for your replies. The ceiling is
partially-insulated,
but the walls
are not (except for the one which is attached to the house). Maybe I'll
add
some to the ceiling.
Gas is nearby; my hot water heater uses it, but that's all. I'm not a big
fan of NG.
Since you've convinced me that a propane furnace without proper
ventilation
is unsafe,
an electric heater seems the more practical for the time being. I'll read
all of the posts
again, thank you!

Bill

Convection electric heat is clean too.


Good point!

I just typed in "Convection electric heat" (google search), and this product
came up:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been under
the impression that using electricity was a costly way to create heat. I
guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W = 1.5kW, and it looks like I
pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that would come out to 15 cents per
hour. Better than I would have expected; quiet too I assume. Please correct
my calculations if I overlooked something (my home-owners insurance is paid
up! )!

Bill

Bill wrote:

I just typed in "Convection electric heat" (google search), and this product
came up:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been under
the impression that using electricity was a costly way to create heat. I
guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W = 1.5kW, and it looks like I
pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that would come out to 15 cents per
hour. Better than I would have expected; quiet too I assume. Please correct
my calculations if I overlooked something (my home-owners insurance is paid
up! )!

That's not a lot of heat, and satisfaction is likely to depend on how
well insulated and how draft-free your garage is.

Since warm air rises, I'd suggest taking notbob's advice and also buying
one of these:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...140&lpage=none

A lifetime warranty and $19.95 price are attractive.

(I don't have any connection with Lowes)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Bill" wrote in message
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been under
the impression that using electricity was a costly way to create heat. I
guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W = 1.5kW, and it looks like
I pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that would come out to 15 cents per
hour. Better than I would have expected; quiet too I assume. Please
correct my calculations if I overlooked something (my home-owners
insurance is paid up! )!

Bill


The only thing you are overlooking is the Btu output. In my garage, it
would raise the temperature about 1 degree.

1500 W = 5100 BTU

I use a 35,000 BTU propane heater and if it is very cold I still cannot get
it to a working temperature. Given the cost of electricity in my area, that
comes out to about $1.15 an hour if I had enough power to run electric
heat.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote in message
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been
under the impression that using electricity was a costly way to create
heat. I guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W = 1.5kW, and it
looks like I pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that would come out to
15 cents per hour. Better than I would have expected; quiet too I assume.
Please correct my calculations if I overlooked something (my home-owners
insurance is paid up! )!

Bill


The only thing you are overlooking is the Btu output. In my garage, it
would raise the temperature about 1 degree.

1500 W = 5100 BTU

I use a 35,000 BTU propane heater and if it is very cold I still cannot
get it to a working temperature. Given the cost of electricity in my
area, that comes out to about $1.15 an hour if I had enough power to run
electric heat.


Well, what do you mean by "very cold"? Considering how few days it is very
cold
in central IN, I can do something else on those days. About how much do you
pay per
kWh in your neck of the woods?

Bill

"Bill" wrote:

I just typed in "Convection electric heat" (google search), and this
product came up:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been
under the impression that using electricity was a costly way to
create heat. I guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W =
1.5kW, and it looks like I pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that
would come out to 15 cents per hour.

The heater above is a cute little toy, would probably work well in a
desk cubby hole for an office.

Trying to heat an un-insulated, 2 car garage in central Indiana in the
middle of winter with a 1500W heater has about as much a chance of
doing the job as you have trying to smell an ameba fart from 100 ft
away in a hurricane.

Haven't run the numbers, but even 15,000W would probably be very
marginal at best.

Lew

Bill wrote:


"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an
(electric) insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options
appear to be kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How
concerned should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal
will be even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill

Warm it up to 60 from what? 58? 29? 0? -15?


Sorry, I accidentally edited out the part about being in the middle
of Indiana. Say, 20 to 30 degrees Fahrenheit.

Well, there's your problem, you need to move 600 miles south of where
you are.

On second thought keep two places, Indiana in the summer and Gulf
coast in the winter.

basilisk

--
http://www.welshpembrokecorgis.com

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:52:41 -0500, the infamous "Bill"
scrawled the following:


I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to be
kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How concerned
should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

Extremely concerned. Do watch it. Propane also produces a damp
exhaust.


The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will be
even more at risk.

Yes. Insulate and finish the walls. It will create an entirely
different environment for your shop and won't cost very much.
Warming won't condense much except on the metal. Do protect all of
your steel tools with Johnson's paste wax. $4 or so at Wally World.

And insulated shop can be heated with a small ceramic cube heater.
No exhaust, no moisture, no idiots with carbon taxes jumping all over
you.

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:04:22 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
scrawled the following:

Bill wrote:
I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to be
kerosene, propane and electric.

I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How concerned
should I be about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will be
even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Solar - no fuel, no fumes, no condensation, and always warm.

(Very biased opinion)

PV and electric, right? gd&r

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

Bill said:

I just typed in "Convection electric heat" (google search), and this product
came up:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been under
the impression that using electricity was a costly way to create heat. I
guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W = 1.5kW, and it looks like I
pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that would come out to 15 cents per
hour. Better than I would have expected; quiet too I assume. Please correct
my calculations if I overlooked something (my home-owners insurance is paid
up! )!

I live in the "deep south" (zone7) and have a 420 sq ft insulated and
finished garage with insulated doors (x2). A 1500 watt heater will
keep it at a given temperature, but would take days to bring it from
mid 30s to 68. (Lots of thermal mass in the form of cast iron,
concrete, and such.) And the cost would be prohibitive. I use a
kerosene heater (condensation but 26,000 BTU's) and then electric to
maintain. A fan to move the naturally rising heat to lower levels is
recommended.

Kerosene used to be about the cheapest per BTU with natural gas
running a close second, but subsequent mergers of various "energy
companies" into monopolies has resulted in almost all forms of energy
being priced with a cent or two per BTU. Funny how that worked out...
*******s.

I want this solar heated building:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Here, however, baking in the summer is also a problem. There is no way
it's going to get air conditioned, yet open the doors and the
mosquitoes will carry you away. Same with a swamp cooler - with the
addition caveat that the humidity is so high they barely work.

Next place I'm going to bury a 1/2 mile of pipe underground and use it
for geoheating/cooling combined with solar.
*******s.



Greg G.

"Bill" wrote in message

The only thing you are overlooking is the Btu output. In my garage, it
would raise the temperature about 1 degree.

1500 W = 5100 BTU

I use a 35,000 BTU propane heater and if it is very cold I still cannot
get it to a working temperature. Given the cost of electricity in my
area, that comes out to about $1.15 an hour if I had enough power to run
electric heat.


Well, what do you mean by "very cold"? Considering how few days it is
very cold
in central IN, I can do something else on those days. About how much do
you pay per
kWh in your neck of the woods?

Bill

I can get a 30 degree rise. That means much below 30, the shop is cold. At
10F, the shop will reach 40F.
Electric in my area is about 19¢.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bill" wrote:

I just typed in "Convection electric heat" (google search), and this
product came up:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been
under the impression that using electricity was a costly way to
create heat. I guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W =
1.5kW, and it looks like I pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that
would come out to 15 cents per hour.

The heater above is a cute little toy, would probably work well in a
desk cubby hole for an office.

Trying to heat an un-insulated, 2 car garage in central Indiana in the
middle of winter with a 1500W heater has about as much a chance of
doing the job as you have trying to smell an ameba fart from 100 ft
away in a hurricane.

Haven't run the numbers, but even 15,000W would probably be very
marginal at best.

Two of those will keep my garage above freezing, barely, in CT. I have a
135,000 BTU propane heater that brings it up to 80 in about a half an hour
on the coldest days I've encountered. Note that a heater that size needs
two gas grill sized portable tanks to keep it fed at full blast, one won't
maintain a high enough flow rate.

I really need to finish insulating and replace the door.

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:52:41 -0500, "Bill"
wrote:


I have an attached 400 ft^2 (20' by 20') 2-car garage with an (electric)
insulated garage door.

What is a smart way to warm it up (to say 60 degrees)? Options appear to be
kerosene, propane and electric.
I assume that propane may be the cleanest and/or cheapest. How concerned
should I be
about exhaust fumes (at this point, they concern me)?

The garage has some unfinished walls and a finished ceiling. Is
occasionally warming it up likely to produce condensation
on walls and lead to their damage? I assume that unprotected metal will be
even more at risk.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Bill



I use a 150,00 btu forced air kerosene heater made by Dayton
(Grainger). It runs on a portable thermostat. I left it on last night
so that my glue up could cure. This morning it is 61 degrees and 37%
relative humidity in the shop. It is 37 degrees outside. People
complain about the moisture added by the combustion process but I see
it as an advantage. I recently bought kerosene for $2.49 per gallon.
I keep two CO meters running in the shop. My main shop area is about
900 square feet with a pitched roof that runs from 14 feet in the
center to 8'3" on the sides. The kero doesn't smell bad to me but I
service the heater every Fall and use only #1 clear kerosene in it.



Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:26:20 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
scrawled the following:


"Bill" wrote:

I just typed in "Convection electric heat" (google search), and this
product came up:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been
under the impression that using electricity was a costly way to
create heat. I guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W =
1.5kW, and it looks like I pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that
would come out to 15 cents per hour.

The heater above is a cute little toy, would probably work well in a
desk cubby hole for an office.

Trying to heat an un-insulated, 2 car garage in central Indiana in the
middle of winter with a 1500W heater has about as much a chance of
doing the job as you have trying to smell an ameba fart from 100 ft
away in a hurricane.

Haven't run the numbers, but even 15,000W would probably be very
marginal at best.

Are you guys doing the math only on getting a room up to temp? What
about maintaining heat in a previously heated space? A small heater
will take awhile to heat a large space, but once heated, it will
maintain it easily. We're not talking 40x60' outbuildings here.

Insulated, a shop will stay warm with minimal input, but it's gotta be
well insulated. My gar^H^H^Hshop is attached to the house and gets
colder than the house due to leaks. I had an HVAC duct routed there
but it stays about 8 degrees cooler or hotter than the house. I use a
small (1500W) Patton fan/heater and it brings my shop to a toasty temp
in no time. A person working in a shop also adds plenty of BTUs.
http://fwd4.me/2ZJ Here's a $20 type which will do it for you if you
insulate and if you're not in Alaska/ND/Maine/BFE in the winter.

Bill, as I said, insulate that space and use a fan-blown electric
heater or two (on separate circuits, yeah?) to get the space heated so
you can work. I saw you link to a convection heater. Forget that.
Forced air is the only type of heat to have, period. I worked in a
shipping and receiving area in a warehouse in '75. It had radiant
heaters and we were always cold. I moved to Oregon and the house came
with 240v baseboard heaters (convection). When they were running, my
ankles were cold and when I stood up, my forehead instantly broke out
in a sweat. I immediately installed a nice Carrier HVAC. It's my first
air-conditioned home/shop and I love it. (For $6k, I'd better, huh?
But I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm gas heated.)

Convected air stratifies, forced air blends. For comfort, go with
forced air.

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 06:52:00 -0500, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bill" wrote:

I just typed in "Convection electric heat" (google search), and this
product came up:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I had been
under the impression that using electricity was a costly way to
create heat. I guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W =
1.5kW, and it looks like I pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and that
would come out to 15 cents per hour.

The heater above is a cute little toy, would probably work well in a
desk cubby hole for an office.

Trying to heat an un-insulated, 2 car garage in central Indiana in the
middle of winter with a 1500W heater has about as much a chance of
doing the job as you have trying to smell an ameba fart from 100 ft
away in a hurricane.

Haven't run the numbers, but even 15,000W would probably be very
marginal at best.

Two of those will keep my garage above freezing, barely, in CT. I have a
135,000 BTU propane heater that brings it up to 80 in about a half an hour
on the coldest days I've encountered. Note that a heater that size needs
two gas grill sized portable tanks to keep it fed at full blast, one won't
maintain a high enough flow rate.

I really need to finish insulating and replace the door.

Well, DUH! For the price of heating one season, you could have _paid_
someone to buy and install that insulation for you, JC.

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:04:22 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
scrawled the following:

Solar - no fuel, no fumes, no condensation, and always warm.

(Very biased opinion)

PV and electric, right? gd&r

Troublemaker!

I really like the idea of being able to permanently buy-down energy
costs, but PV doesn't seem quite ready for that yet - except for far
off-grid locations where the cost of extending the grid would be
comparable to the cost of the panels.

PV technology is poised to take off as soon as we produce either of two
breakthroughs: [1] a halving of production cost or, [2] a significant
improvement in conversion efficiency. One or both of those /will/ take
place, but the headache with breakthroughs is that they happen on their
own schedule - either could happen today, or (with equal probability)
200 years from today.

Solar thermal technology, on the other hand, doesn't need either of
those breakthroughs - only the effort to put it into use where it offers
some real advantage over other technologies.

I don't see the two as competitive - I just lack the patience for
waiting quietly until someone else comes up with a breakthrough.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

The heater above is a cute little toy, would probably work well in a desk
cubby hole for an office.

Trying to heat an un-insulated, 2 car garage in central Indiana in the
middle of winter with a 1500W heater has about as much a chance of doing
the job as you have trying to smell an ameba fart from 100 ft away in a
hurricane.

Probably right Lew! But not all of us work in the shop only wearig out swim
trunks. 60 is plenty warm for me. LOL.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:26:20 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
scrawled the following:


"Bill" wrote:

I just typed in "Convection electric heat" (google search),
and this
product came up:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...il=&lpage=none

Looks appealing--even has a thermostat and auto-shutoff. I
had been
under the impression that using electricity was a costly way
to
create heat. I guess I can try the math: this thing is 1500W
=
1.5kW, and it looks like I pay less than 10 cents per kWh, and
that
would come out to 15 cents per hour.

The heater above is a cute little toy, would probably work well
in a
desk cubby hole for an office.

Trying to heat an un-insulated, 2 car garage in central Indiana
in the
middle of winter with a 1500W heater has about as much a chance
of
doing the job as you have trying to smell an ameba fart from 100
ft
away in a hurricane.

Haven't run the numbers, but even 15,000W would probably be very
marginal at best.

Are you guys doing the math only on getting a room up to temp?
What
about maintaining heat in a previously heated space? A small
heater
will take awhile to heat a large space, but once heated, it will
maintain it easily. We're not talking 40x60' outbuildings here.

Insulated, a shop will stay warm with minimal input, but it's
gotta be
well insulated. My gar^H^H^Hshop is attached to the house and
gets
colder than the house due to leaks. I had an HVAC duct routed
there
but it stays about 8 degrees cooler or hotter than the house. I
use a
small (1500W) Patton fan/heater and it brings my shop to a
toasty temp
in no time. A person working in a shop also adds plenty of BTUs.
http://fwd4.me/2ZJ Here's a $20 type which will do it for you
if you
insulate and if you're not in Alaska/ND/Maine/BFE in the winter.

Bill, as I said, insulate that space and use a fan-blown
electric
heater or two (on separate circuits, yeah?) to get the space
heated so
you can work. I saw you link to a convection heater. Forget
that.
Forced air is the only type of heat to have, period. I worked in
a
shipping and receiving area in a warehouse in '75. It had
radiant
heaters and we were always cold. I moved to Oregon and the
house came
with 240v baseboard heaters (convection). When they were
running, my
ankles were cold and when I stood up, my forehead instantly
broke out
in a sweat. I immediately installed a nice Carrier HVAC. It's my
first
air-conditioned home/shop and I love it. (For $6k, I'd better,
huh?
But I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm gas heated.)

Convected air stratifies, forced air blends. For comfort, go
with
forced air.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6363_200316363

This isn't much more than a floor model forced air
construction-type heater. It mounts up by the ceiling, out of the
way, and once installed, it's ready to go whenever you need it.
It's vented, so there's no humidity or fumes, also.

In most garage/shops, folks aren't in there every day, all day
long. A good sized heater will let you heat it quickly, just when
you want it heated.


--
Nonny

Have you ever wondered if the bills
in your wallet were ever in a stripper's butt crack?
Have a nice day ..

Leon wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...
The heater above is a cute little toy, would probably work well in a desk
cubby hole for an office.

Trying to heat an un-insulated, 2 car garage in central Indiana in the
middle of winter with a 1500W heater has about as much a chance of doing
the job as you have trying to smell an ameba fart from 100 ft away in a
hurricane.

Probably right Lew! But not all of us work in the shop only wearig out swim
trunks.

Now that's a mental picture I didn't need to see. LOL!

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Just got this in a newsletter...

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/2009november/heater.html



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
Just got this in a newsletter...

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/2009november/heater.html

I've tried 'em--not worth a crap if it's really cold and have any volume
of any size to heat--can't stand in front of the dam'd thing _all_ the
time. Plus, if you get close enough to warm one side, it's soon
imitating crispy-critter while your other side might as well be dark
side of moon.

--

dpb wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
Just got this in a newsletter...

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/2009november/heater.html

I've tried 'em--not worth a crap if it's really cold and have any volume
of any size to heat--can't stand in front of the dam'd thing _all_ the
time. Plus, if you get close enough to warm one side, it's soon
imitating crispy-critter while your other side might as well be dark
side of moon.


Like sitting in front of a campfire, huh?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
dpb wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
Just got this in a newsletter...

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/2009november/heater.html

I've tried 'em--not worth a crap if it's really cold and have any
volume of any size to heat--can't stand in front of the dam'd thing
_all_ the time. Plus, if you get close enough to warm one side, it's
soon imitating crispy-critter while your other side might as well be
dark side of moon.


Like sitting in front of a campfire, huh?

Ayup...sorta' but w/o the marshmallows...

The other worst part ( ; ) in a shop is that nothing _in_ the shop
warms up unless it's in direct line-of-sight. Since don't ever get much
actual air temperature rise, all that cast iron just continues to
radiate back as well and so it doesn't really warm up overall, either.
Meanwhile, a black cast arbor wrench laying in front of the thing for a
couple hours might end up hot enough on the near side to make you yelp
when pick it up.

They only give the impression that you have as the guy says in the
review of standing in the sun. That's good to a point but they're just
not adequate as the primary heat source unless one can be where it is
essentially continuously and not too close, not too far away.

At least that's my opinion after having a couple offered from an estate
and figuring they'd be a help...in the end, they really didn't make any
generally useful contribution other than being able to go over and stick
hands in front of one of 'em for a while.

I didn't make it this year, but hopefully by next, I'll extend the gas
line from the hog house to the barn and put in another ceiling heater
for the shop area. What I didn't get done was anything about being able
to close an area off so not trying to heat the whole bloody thing (which
is what I figured the radiants might at least help) as well as outdoors
since away from the shop area itself it's right drafty at best...

In short, I'd recommend a trial run by anybody before committing much $$
or hopes on these puppies in cold climates.

--

Larry Jaques wrote in
:

Bill, as I said, insulate that space and use a fan-blown electric
heater or two (on separate circuits, yeah?) to get the space heated so
you can work. I saw you link to a convection heater. Forget that.
Forced air is the only type of heat to have, period. I worked in a
shipping and receiving area in a warehouse in '75. It had radiant
heaters and we were always cold. I moved to Oregon and the house came
with 240v baseboard heaters (convection). When they were running, my
ankles were cold and when I stood up, my forehead instantly broke out
in a sweat. I immediately installed a nice Carrier HVAC. It's my first
air-conditioned home/shop and I love it. (For $6k, I'd better, huh?
But I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm gas heated.)

Convected air stratifies, forced air blends. For comfort, go with
forced air.


I'm partial to the system I've got in the shopwarehouse* myself. It's in
slab hot water, so once the slab gets warm heat recovery is very quick if
the garage door needs to be opened. (It's a big garage door. 10x17)
When the temperature approaches 0, the shop is still nice and warm.

No idea how much propane the boiler actually uses itself, this will be
the first year heating the house through electric forced air.

(*shopwarehouse: building used for storing every else's junk. Wish
they'd find somewhere else to put it.)

Puckdropper