Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
idea. For anybody.

Robatoy wrote:
Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
idea. For anybody.

The new pres has already said he doesn't like NAFTA. Maybe this is the
first step in shutting it down?

On the other hand, as we've seen before the USA only abides by NAFTA
rulings when they're in their favour.

Chris

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:02:21 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote:

Robatoy wrote:
Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
idea. For anybody.

The new pres has already said he doesn't like NAFTA. Maybe this is the
first step in shutting it down?

On the other hand, as we've seen before the USA only abides by NAFTA
rulings when they're in their favour.

Chris
When they THINK it's in their favour

I am dumbfounded over this. How is this supposed to repair the
international image of the US that Obama is so desperately trying to
improve?

He wants to be the global Oprah/Phil Donahue/Wayne Dyer, yet he wants
to shut out our trading partners. That should build PLENTY of good
will with the global community.

The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long
passed. Without our trading partners we are screwed. We are
incapable of turning this economy around without the help of others.

With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and
construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder
to think what the costs will be with little or no competition. I
can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are
global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building
municipal buildings and highways.

Since Hosana wants to start these projects right away, no doubt using
the same financial team that has overseen the first bailout dough go
away (you know, 18 billion in bonuses, 2 million dollar office
remodels, etc.) imagine what will happen when we plunge willy-nilly
into selecting the biggest contractors to get going immediately.

Budgets? Naw.... don't need 'em. We go no competition.

Material pricing? Don't worry! Where are they gonna go? It has to
stay between us!

One of the finer points of the bill I saw in a news article said that
they are even going to ask that ALL tools be made in the USA. I
worked on a union job as an observer for the owners of a large
building at one time. They union requireed that they had ALL USA made
tools. No Makita, Hitachi, DeWalt, or PC. The only used a special
line by B&D, anything Milwaukee, and a couple of others. One day,
both circular saws that two pairs of carpenters were using. Since
their reserve saw was in use by another pair, they had none of their
own. The certified USA saw from an approved vendor was somewhere en
route from waayyy up north. So those four knotheads sat on their
hands after halfhearted looking for work for 1/2 day the first day,
all day the next, and a couple of hours on the third. Finally, two
saws came, and four men went back to work.

Now imagine that being done with your own hard earned dollars. Not to
mention that the tools cost double the amount of their international
competitors. Think what that will do.

Imagine all the tools on a job; drills, saws, sledge hammers, skid
steer loaders, back hoes, material dollies, you name it. Some of that
stuff hasn't been made here for years. I don't know that we have the
technology to build many of these machines anymore. Where does that
leave us? Rather than to get going on the projects, will there be
even more bail out money thrown out the window to start new factories
so the industry cronies can finish screwing the last nickels out of
us?

Do you think Obama will give up his Blackberry or cell phone to keep
the "buy America" campaign going his way? After all, I am sure that
he only uses American made electronics, right?

This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Robert

On Jan 31, 1:53*am, "
wrote:
I am dumbfounded over this. *How is this supposed to repair the
international image of the US that Obama is so desperately trying to
improve?

He wants to be the global Oprah/Phil Donahue/Wayne Dyer, yet he wants
to shut out our trading partners. *That should build PLENTY of good
will with the global community.

The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long
passed. *Without our trading partners we are screwed. *We are
incapable of turning this economy around without the help of others.

With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and
construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder
to think what the costs will be with little or no competition. *I
can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are
global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building
municipal buildings and highways.

Since Hosana wants to start these projects right away, no doubt using
the same financial team that has overseen the first bailout dough go
away (you know, 18 billion in bonuses, 2 million dollar office
remodels, etc.) imagine what will happen when we plunge willy-nilly
into selecting the biggest contractors to get going immediately.

Budgets? *Naw.... don't need 'em. *We go no competition.

Material pricing? *Don't worry! *Where are they gonna go? *It has to
stay between us!

One of the finer points of the bill I saw in a news article said that
they are even going to ask that ALL tools be made in the USA. *I
worked on a union job as an observer for the owners of a large
building at one time. *They union requireed that they had ALL USA made
tools. *No Makita, Hitachi, DeWalt, or PC. *The only used a special
line by B&D, anything Milwaukee, and a couple of others. *One day,
both circular saws that two pairs of carpenters were using. *Since
their reserve saw was in use by another pair, they had none of their
own. *The certified USA saw from an approved vendor was somewhere en
route from waayyy up north. *So those four knotheads sat on their
hands after halfhearted looking for work for 1/2 day the first day,
all day the next, and a couple of hours on the third. *Finally, two
saws came, and four men went back to work.

Now imagine that being done with your own hard earned dollars. Not to
mention that the tools cost double the amount of their international
competitors. *Think what that will do.

Imagine all the tools on a job; drills, saws, sledge hammers, skid
steer loaders, back hoes, material dollies, you name it. *Some of that
stuff hasn't been made here for years. *I don't know that we have the
technology to build many of these machines anymore. Where does that
leave us? *Rather than to get going on the projects, will there be
even more bail out money thrown out the window to start new factories
so the industry cronies can finish screwing the last nickels out of
us?

Do you think Obama will give up his Blackberry or cell phone to keep
the "buy America" campaign going his way? *After all, I am sure that
he only uses American made electronics, right?

This is just starting to get worse by the day. *The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Robert

You are Right on! I think it's the "F" in NAFTA, that this
administration objects to.
They can't control business in Canada or Mexico as easily as they can
in the US. And with this bunch, it's all about control. Hang on to
your hats. It's going to be a Helluva ride!

Gene

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:53:57 -0800, wrote:

The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long
passed. Without our trading partners we are screwed. We are incapable
of turning this economy around without the help of others.

Dare I point out that we were warned about exactly that possibility a
long time ago?

And then there was Perot's giant sucking sound.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

On Jan 30, 12:13*pm, Robatoy wrote:
Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
idea. For anybody.

Protectionism seemed to work for Harley Davidson. And lack of
protectionism of any sort has moved much of our manufacturing
"overseas". In fact, our manufacturers have benefited from tax codes
that paid the owners to move their factories out of the country. The
grand irony is that without protecting our jobs and wages here, there
has been zero effort to increase wages in the countries where our jobs
have moved to. With the result that jobs keep going away, and we are
faced with competition from illegal immigrants who are trying to flee
the oppressive work environments in their countries. It's the grand
race to the bottom, largely of our own making.

On Jan 31, 12:11*pm, wrote:
On Jan 30, 12:13*pm, Robatoy wrote:

Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
idea. For anybody.

Protectionism seemed to work for Harley Davidson. *And lack of
protectionism of any sort has moved much of our manufacturing
"overseas". *In fact, our manufacturers have benefited from tax codes
that paid the owners to move their factories out of the country. *The
grand irony is that without protecting our jobs and wages here, there
has been zero effort to increase wages in the countries where our jobs
have moved to. *With the result that jobs keep going away, and we are
faced with competition from illegal immigrants who are trying to flee
the oppressive work environments in their countries. *It's the grand
race to the bottom, largely of our own making.

Look at what happened to some of the European cities. Whole sections
of Amsterdam, the burbs surrounding Paris, the whole damned continent
is not allowed to eat pork anymore.(okay, a small illustrative
embellishment). And those were LEGAL immigrants.
Just to use a small example in The Netherlands.
The Dutch didn't want to do menial work anymore, like garbage
collecting, road-building etc. It was cheap to import a large
workforce from Turkey (one example to keep it simple, nothing against
the Turks). The Turks would come and work, sending the money home
whilst instituting mosques and taking over entire neighbourhoods. Then
they got representation in government and insisted on street sign in
Turkish, because anything less would be discrimination. The whole
political correctness took on an adversary position: OUR way or a
fine.
Now the Dutch can't even get a menial job anymore because it would be
discriminatory not to give it to an immigrant.

Does anybody still speak English in LA? (Other than those fag-pinko
Hollywood libtards?)
Isn't Chicago the world's largest Polish city?

Most old-school immigrants are grateful for the opportunities to help
build North America, and we should be grateful to them.
To them, it was a privilege.To the new batch, it has become a right.
They drag along all those ****ed-up customs that made them want to
leave in the their old country in the first place, then impose those
archaic rules on us.

Depending on foreign workers is as dangerous as depending on foreign
electronics, which have obsolescence and life-spans built in. What if
you DVD player breaks, eh? And you can't go to WallFart to buy a new
one for $ 29.95. You'll have to get it fixed at your local electronics
workshop.... and WHO do you think you'll be talking to then, eh
honkey?

Caveat. The above was a dramatization of what happens when people walk
this planet with their ears covered... by their butt-cheeks.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 06:57:12 -0800 (PST), dzin
wrote:

On Jan 31, 1:53*am, "
wrote:
I am dumbfounded over this. *How is this supposed to repair the
international image of the US that Obama is so desperately trying to
improve?

He wants to be the global Oprah/Phil Donahue/Wayne Dyer, yet he wants
to shut out our trading partners. *That should build PLENTY of good
will with the global community.

The possibility of America standing on its own two legs is long, long
passed. *Without our trading partners we are screwed. *We are
incapable of turning this economy around without the help of others.

With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and
construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder
to think what the costs will be with little or no competition. *I
can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are
global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building
municipal buildings and highways.

Since Hosana wants to start these projects right away, no doubt using
the same financial team that has overseen the first bailout dough go
away (you know, 18 billion in bonuses, 2 million dollar office
remodels, etc.) imagine what will happen when we plunge willy-nilly
into selecting the biggest contractors to get going immediately.

Budgets? *Naw.... don't need 'em. *We go no competition.

Material pricing? *Don't worry! *Where are they gonna go? *It has to
stay between us!

One of the finer points of the bill I saw in a news article said that
they are even going to ask that ALL tools be made in the USA. *I
worked on a union job as an observer for the owners of a large
building at one time. *They union requireed that they had ALL USA made
tools. *No Makita, Hitachi, DeWalt, or PC. *The only used a special
line by B&D, anything Milwaukee, and a couple of others. *One day,
both circular saws that two pairs of carpenters were using. *Since
their reserve saw was in use by another pair, they had none of their
own. *The certified USA saw from an approved vendor was somewhere en
route from waayyy up north. *So those four knotheads sat on their
hands after halfhearted looking for work for 1/2 day the first day,
all day the next, and a couple of hours on the third. *Finally, two
saws came, and four men went back to work.

Now imagine that being done with your own hard earned dollars. Not to
mention that the tools cost double the amount of their international
competitors. *Think what that will do.

Imagine all the tools on a job; drills, saws, sledge hammers, skid
steer loaders, back hoes, material dollies, you name it. *Some of that
stuff hasn't been made here for years. *I don't know that we have the
technology to build many of these machines anymore. Where does that
leave us? *Rather than to get going on the projects, will there be
even more bail out money thrown out the window to start new factories
so the industry cronies can finish screwing the last nickels out of
us?

Do you think Obama will give up his Blackberry or cell phone to keep
the "buy America" campaign going his way? *After all, I am sure that
he only uses American made electronics, right?

This is just starting to get worse by the day. *The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Robert

You are Right on! I think it's the "F" in NAFTA, that this
administration objects to.
They can't control business in Canada or Mexico as easily as they can
in the US. And with this bunch, it's all about control. Hang on to
your hats. It's going to be a Helluva ride!

Gene


The government is the cause of our recession, now they are trying to
be the solution. We need "No taxes for 6 months," then I might think
about shopping. Bush nor Obama shine with financial responsibility;
too bad for USA taxpayers. Sadly, the only thing I can do is boycott
products of those who were bailed out.

wrote:

.... snip
With so many of our resources, and so much of our manufacturing and
construction held in the hands of just a few here in the US, I shudder
to think what the costs will be with little or no competition. I
can't stand to think of the construction giants (which themselves are
global monsters - not hometown boys) getting even fatter building
municipal buildings and highways.

Keep in mind also Robert B. Reiche's testimony before congress in which he
said that he didn't want those infrastructure jobs going to "white male
construction workers" -- his exact words.


.... snip

This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Robert

Elections have consequences. Nobody was willing to listen to concerns
during the election season. No intellectual curiosity was displayed by the
media on the candidate's past record, associations, or experience. They
were of course, sufficiently curious to air-drop hundreds of reporters into
Alaska to dig through dumpsters for dirt on the other party's VP pick.

What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal
statists to office? That somehow they were going to get fiscal restraint
and fiscal responsibility?

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Jan 31, 2:57*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:

* What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal
statists to office? *That somehow they were going to get fiscal restraint
and fiscal responsibility?

I know, I know. But I am going with John Wayne on this one; "He
wasn't my candidate, but he is my President". I am trying to give the
guy a chance and be as positive as possible. I am sick of the
infighting between politicians and the public over partisanship
issues.

I WANT things to go well. I do not care who the president is...
neither side of the isle has been able to field anyone dynamic for
years, so we are left with whatever candidate wants to face the
storm. I am not partisan; both sides stink of the feces of "bought
and paid for" politics.

I want Obama to do well as our leader, because if he does, by default
it is possible we might as well.

I just didn't think things would go SO horribly wrong SO fast... less
than 14 days in... I didn't have a clue those guys were that arrogant
and downright stupid.

Robert

wrote in message
...
[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]
This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
economies on a level field.

As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and plumbing.
In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy
before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and
they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
integral calculus as remember the fine details.

So, what about the import tool restrictions? Why cut NAFTA partners out of
the pie? First, our dear neighbors don't pay taxes or tariffs in the US.
Money leaves, and doesn't return. The status quo is exactly why we have a
problem. So, what to do about the lack of domestic tools and suppliers? This
is secondary money, funding US industry, making more jobs, opening a market
for manufacturing. Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital to
more corners of the economy. Or something like that.

On Jan 31, 8:15*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:
wrote in message

...
[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]

This is just starting to get worse by the day. *The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
economies on a level field.

As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and plumbing.
In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy
before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and
they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
integral calculus as remember the fine details.


How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets?
Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.
Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
closed loop system?
After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
gougers skim off the bulk of it?
The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.
How do you replenish it? Print some more?

Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

On Jan 31, 1:38*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Jan 31, 12:11*pm, wrote:

On Jan 30, 12:13*pm, Robatoy wrote:

Didn't anybody learn anything in the 1930's? Protectionism is a bad
idea. For anybody.

Protectionism seemed to work for Harley Davidson. *And lack of
protectionism of any sort has moved much of our manufacturing
"overseas". *In fact, our manufacturers have benefited from tax codes
that paid the owners to move their factories out of the country. *The
grand irony is that without protecting our jobs and wages here, there
has been zero effort to increase wages in the countries where our jobs
have moved to. *With the result that jobs keep going away, and we are
faced with competition from illegal immigrants who are trying to flee
the oppressive work environments in their countries. *It's the grand
race to the bottom, largely of our own making.

Look at what happened to some of the European cities. Whole sections
of Amsterdam, the burbs surrounding Paris, the whole damned continent
is not allowed to eat pork anymore.(okay, a small illustrative
embellishment). And those were LEGAL immigrants.
Just to use a small example in The Netherlands.
The Dutch didn't want to do menial work anymore, like garbage
collecting, road-building etc. It was cheap to import a large
workforce from Turkey (one example to keep it simple, nothing against
the Turks). The Turks would come and work, sending the money home
whilst instituting mosques and taking over entire neighbourhoods. Then
they got representation in government and insisted on street sign in
Turkish, because anything less would be discrimination. The whole
political correctness took on an adversary position: OUR way or a
fine.
Now the Dutch can't even get a menial job anymore because it would be
discriminatory not to give it to an immigrant.

Does anybody still speak English in LA? (Other than those fag-pinko
Hollywood libtards?)
Isn't Chicago the world's largest Polish city?

Most old-school immigrants are grateful for the opportunities to help
build North America, and we should be grateful to them.
To them, it was a privilege.To the new batch, it has become a right.
They drag along all those ****ed-up customs that made them want to
leave in the their old country in the first place, then impose those
archaic rules on us.

Depending on foreign workers is as dangerous as depending on foreign
electronics, which have obsolescence and life-spans built in. What if
you DVD player breaks, eh? And you can't go to WallFart to buy a new
one for $ 29.95. You'll have to get it fixed at your local electronics
workshop.... and WHO do you think you'll be talking to then, eh
honkey?

Caveat. The above was a dramatization of what happens when people walk
this planet with their ears covered... by their butt-cheeks.

And now this, the tip of the iceberg:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle5622156.ece

Robatoy wrote:

Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.

Umm - are you still liking the "cluster bomb" I shipped your way?

Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
closed loop system?

What makes you think it doesn't?

After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
gougers skim off the bulk of it?

So? Stay away from the money-lenders. Look for suppliers who aren't
robbers. Innovate to minimize dependence on utility gougers. Look for
ways to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely required - and actively
work to shrink those requirements.

The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.

Well, that's a choice for the working man to make. It's not a given that
it /has/ go up the chimney...

How do you replenish it? Print some more?

That's one choice, another might be to actually produce something that
can be sold with sufficient markup to cover the overhead associated with
being alive.

Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

And the ones that do work well in the real world, do so in spite of the
predators. The challenge isn't just to get rid of the predators - it's
also to not allowing yourself to be a victim in an arena where there
will always be predators.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

wrote:

On Jan 31, 2:57Â*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:

What did people THINK was going to happen when they elected liberal
statists to office? Â*That somehow they were going to get fiscal restraint
and fiscal responsibility?

I know, I know. But I am going with John Wayne on this one; "He
wasn't my candidate, but he is my President". I am trying to give the
guy a chance and be as positive as possible. I am sick of the
infighting between politicians and the public over partisanship
issues.

If the argument is over statist vs. freedom issues, I want people to be
partisan and not sell out to the statists. Freedom surrendered to the
state is hard, if not impossible to regain.



I WANT things to go well. I do not care who the president is...
neither side of the isle has been able to field anyone dynamic for
years, so we are left with whatever candidate wants to face the
storm. I am not partisan; both sides stink of the feces of "bought
and paid for" politics.

I want Obama to do well as our leader, because if he does, by default
it is possible we might as well.


I wouldn't mind him doing well if he were not espousing policies that are
going to do our country ill. Unfortunately, the policies he is pushing are
the same failed policies that kept our country mired in the Depression
until WWII finally broke us out of that condition.


I just didn't think things would go SO horribly wrong SO fast... less
than 14 days in... I didn't have a clue those guys were that arrogant
and downright stupid.

Given the policies being promoted (government is the answer) and the
arrogance on the parts of the House and Senate leadership (Pelosi and Reid
specifically), how could anybody be surprised? Pelosi completely shut out
the other side from even being able to make recommendations for the pork
bill and then had the gall to publicly state that she was not "partisan"
or "bi-partisan", she's "non-partisan". I guess so, as long as your
definition of "non-partisan" is going along with what the Democrat
leadership proposes.


Robert

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Jan 31, 9:53*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.

Umm - are you still liking the "cluster bomb" I shipped your way?

LOL.. don't be silly, Canadians don't use those..

Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
closed loop system?

What makes you think it doesn't?

Well, somebody is siphoning it off somehow, I have less now than I did
2 years ago.

After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
gougers skim off the bulk of it?

So? Stay away from the money-lenders. Look for suppliers who aren't
robbers. Innovate to minimize dependence on utility gougers. Look for
ways to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely required - and actively
work to shrink those requirements.

Oh, I do those things. I was born Dutch, not stupid. Unfortunately,
too many people are getting raped on a regular basis.
What's with 20% on credit cards when prime is 1 %?
The problem is that I am not the only one affecting the economy.

The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.

Well, that's a choice for the working man to make. It's not a given that
it /has/ go up the chimney...

Most people are not in a position to make those choices. Apartment
building dwellers for instance.

How do you replenish it? Print some more?

That's one choice, another might be to actually produce something that
can be sold with sufficient markup to cover the overhead associated with
being alive.

Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

And the ones that do work well in the real world, do so in spite of the
predators. The challenge isn't just to get rid of the predators - it's
also to not allowing yourself to be a victim in an arena where there
will always be predators.

You know that, I know that. But I don't think it is you and I that are
crashing the world economy.
I pity those who have high debt loads while their jobs are in peril.

I don't know what the solution is, but slamming the border shut isn't
it.
I don't believe you support that either.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 8:15 pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:
wrote in message

...
[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]

This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
economies on a level field.

As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and
plumbing.
In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy
before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and
they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
integral calculus as remember the fine details.


How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets?
Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.

========
The trade imbalance is specifically the problem. I'm for sending those
clusters bombs to friendlies, as well as free contributions to those hostile
to US interests. There was a time when dropping a bomb, a US made bomb,
eventually circulated the money back into our economy. Bush's $8B war was
supposed to generate $8B of revenue for those concerns involved in
replenishing the stockpile.


Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
closed loop system?
After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
gougers skim off the bulk of it?

=======
Corrupt money lenders were and remain the bane of all civilizations. It's
odd to have this discussion in this NG, in the company of mostly decent
folk, but I'll help fan the flames this once. Let's have us a bit of fun.


The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.
How do you replenish it? Print some more?

=========
Domestic energy. Money doesn't disappear when it's spent. Instead, it
circulates. We would like to have it circulate here for a change.


Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

=======
Greed has its good side as well. More specificially, profit -- i.e.,
personal gain -- is the entire basis of free enterprise. Let's face it. The
US *was* a great nation, whether in spite of or even because of the robber
barons. Without incentive, we look, act, and snuggle in our comforters like
the rest of the socialist world. As a personal aside, it was largely or at
least partly personal enrichment that made Gleevec possible. That's all I'm
going to say on that.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:15:48 -0600, "MikeWhy"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]
This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
economies on a level field.

As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and plumbing.
In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy
before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and
they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
integral calculus as remember the fine details.

So, what about the import tool restrictions? Why cut NAFTA partners out of
the pie? First, our dear neighbors don't pay taxes or tariffs in the US.
Money leaves, and doesn't return.

Oh, it returns all right, when Canadians buy US goods and services.
Because we ARE a small economy we cannot afford to build EVERYTHING we
need. Particularly when your (protectionist) industries pull their
plants out of Canada . And they buy up our plants and then pull them
out so if we want, say, a medium duty truck we need to buy AMERICAN
International or Freightliner trucks because you have shut our plants
down. Our steel industry is almost 100% American owned now that
American Steel has bought out Stelco.

You get your money back from Canada. How'd you like if Canada decided
to say "you won't buy our steel, see how you do without our natural
gas too"?
We wouldn't be STUPID enough to do that (I dont think even Harper
would do that - Dion might have).

The status quo is exactly why we have a
problem. So, what to do about the lack of domestic tools and suppliers? This
is secondary money, funding US industry, making more jobs, opening a market
for manufacturing. Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital to
more corners of the economy. Or something like that.

On Jan 31, 11:25*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message

...
On Jan 31, 8:15 pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:



wrote in message

...
[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]

This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana comes
from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
economies on a level field.

As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and
plumbing.
In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the economy
before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through. The
money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods, and
they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The money
comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
integral calculus as remember the fine details.

How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets?
Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.

========
The trade imbalance is specifically the problem. I'm for sending those
clusters bombs to friendlies, as well as free contributions to those hostile
to US interests. There was a time when dropping a bomb, a US made bomb,
eventually circulated the money back into our economy. Bush's $8B war was
supposed to generate $8B of revenue for those concerns involved in
replenishing the stockpile.


I guess I didn't make my point very clear. If the US won't buy stuff
from other countries, what makes anybody think they will sell anything
to other countries?

Back to woodworking.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 11:25 pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message

...
On Jan 31, 8:15 pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:



wrote in message

...
[... snipped "buy USA" for bailout ...]

This is just starting to get worse by the day. The arrogance and
stupidity of this whole bailout situation is getting ridiculous.

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while
we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital. Hell, even our marijuana
comes
from Canada and Mexico. It's true; we can't compete with their smaller
economies on a level field.

As for the stimulus money, the simplest analogy is with pipes and
plumbing.
In a closed system, the money makes several roundtrips through the
economy
before petering out, multiplying its effectiveness each time through.
The
money goes to workers in your community, where they spend it on goods,
and
they in turn spend it on more goods. We pay taxes on the money. The
money
comes back out to pay for more work and more product. There's a name for
this economic theory. Keynesian, I think, but I might as well try to do
integral calculus as remember the fine details.

How does that deal with manufacturers of products for foreign markets?
Not everything the US makes is for domestic consumption. You have to
keep selling cluster bombs to other 'friendly' countries, you know.

========
The trade imbalance is specifically the problem. I'm for sending those
clusters bombs to friendlies, as well as free contributions to those
hostile
to US interests. There was a time when dropping a bomb, a US made bomb,
eventually circulated the money back into our economy. Bush's $8B war was
supposed to generate $8B of revenue for those concerns involved in
replenishing the stockpile.


I guess I didn't make my point very clear. If the US won't buy stuff
from other countries, what makes anybody think they will sell anything
to other countries?

Back to woodworking.
=====
We were talking strictly of how economic stimulus money was to be spent. We
can talk about burning Walmarts some other day.

On Jan 31, 7:15*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital.

*** Major snippage ***

Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital to
more corners of the economy. Or something like that.

Mike, I appreciate your thoughtful response. But to me it sounds like
a high school civics lesson given by an economics teacher. You
obviously have a much more idealistic belief in our system than I do.

To use your simple analogy, I think that money given by the government
to US companies will indeed flow through our plumbing system and into
the hands of the gutter rats.

You see everything working as it would in a textbook situation. Money
flowing from the top down, everyone receiving benefits. A great plan
if it would work.

But the USA isn't that way. Individuals now steal billions of dollars
at a time. Billions. American businesses are so cavalier in their
practices that they use "bailout money" slated to assist the public to
pay themselves bonuses for jobs poorly done. With no oversight, they
aren't even breaking a law, and they aren't asked to give the money
back. After losing a few billion themselves, their was one banker
that used 1.6 million just to remodel his office!

Out of the 50 billion dollars that are spent on the war each year, how
have you benefited? Do you have better trade infrastructure in your
community? Did General Dynamics open a plant in your community? Did
Haliburton spread their new found wealth anywhere that you know of?
Lockheed? Have any of these companies that continue to make billions
from tax payer money helped you by sourcing the to your state? There
are evidenced situations where American companies overcharged
(Haliburton) overcharged the government by millions and millions...
and nothing is done except to ask for part of the money back.

A simple law won't reform American business practices. Laws won't
reform the criminal element of American business. Daily, we see more
Americans that have happily screwed the eyeballs out of their fellow
Americans so they can lead the good life. American business is
broken. Ethically, American banking is in even worse shape.
Corruption, cronyism, lack of ethics and lack of morals are what
American big business is all about.

Think about that gawdawful first hearing with the auto makers where
they all flew up in their private jets to talk to Congress.

And at this point with the last bailout, there is an estimated 380
billion spent, and as much as half of that is totally unaccounted for;
the people that got the money (mostly banks at this point) refused to
even tell Congress where it went.

If you think that telling these folks to buy American will fix the
profound corporate greed and unethical behavior and make them models
for a high school civic class, we are so far apart on this we are on
different planets.

In a perfect world, the idea would work. But here and now, with our
system as it is with the people we have in charge, not a chance.

Well... that's it for me. I am going to prep the pit and the meat for
a nice brisket smoke for tomorrow. I hope to watch the game tomorrow
and watch the Redbirds pull an upset for all of us gray haired guys.

Robert

Robatoy wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:53 pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
Robatoy wrote:

Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
closed loop system?

What makes you think it doesn't?

Well, somebody is siphoning it off somehow, I have less now than I did
2 years ago.

Not surprising - it's been an expensive decade. The costs of the
conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan have rippled out to affect everyone on
the planet. The damage done on 9-11 was not limited to the twin towers.
We're still recovering from Pacific tsunamis and Gulf hurricanes and a
number of serious floods around the world. Many people around the world
over-estimated assets and made investments based on faulty information
and unwise expectations, and those trillions of dollars haven't been
siphoned off - they never existed (except as numbers on paper) in the
first place. The costs of all of these things have not yet been fully
paid or even reckoned.

No one seems ready to figure the costs of Haiti, Zimbabwe, Somalia,
Georgia, Lebanon, Palestine, nor sub-Saharan Africa - and the Russian
economy is about to implode, which will produce some sizable ripples
outside their borders...

After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
gougers skim off the bulk of it?

So? Stay away from the money-lenders. Look for suppliers who aren't
robbers. Innovate to minimize dependence on utility gougers. Look for
ways to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely required - and actively
work to shrink those requirements.

Oh, I do those things. I was born Dutch, not stupid. Unfortunately,
too many people are getting raped on a regular basis.

I know you do - and this is a good time for us all to consider the
positive aspects of traditional Dutch culture. Hmm - I wonder how much
of that Dutch-ness came from further north?

What's with 20% on credit cards when prime is 1 %?
The problem is that I am not the only one affecting the economy.

I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a
lot of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin
times with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a
lot of people - so I won't.

The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.

Well, that's a choice for the working man to make. It's not a given that
it /has/ go up the chimney...

Most people are not in a position to make those choices. Apartment
building dwellers for instance.

Again, it's all about choices one /is/ in a position to make.

Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

And the ones that do work well in the real world, do so in spite of the
predators. The challenge isn't just to get rid of the predators - it's
also to not allowing yourself to be a victim in an arena where there
will always be predators.

You know that, I know that. But I don't think it is you and I that are
crashing the world economy.

I know for a fact that we're both trying to keep things going. This past
week I've been beating my brains out trying to figure out how to enlarge
the scope of what I've been doing to create jobs for sales people, jobs
for retrofit installers, and energy cost savings for end customers. In
broad concept, I'm almost comfortable - but in detail it becomes really
scary.

Coincidentally, the number of web site hits from Ontario this past week
has been extraordinary - and over the last couple of days the hits from
Quebec have been increasing rapidly. You guys know something I don't?

I pity those who have high debt loads while their jobs are in peril.

Yup, but time and energy resources are better spent on producing
solutions to those problems than on agonizing over their effects.

I don't know what the solution is, but slamming the border shut isn't
it.
I don't believe you support that either.

Of course I don't, but I've never been very comfortable with boundaries
- probably the result of growing up in the midst of a culture in which
borders weren't of /any/ importance, a fact that western governments
/still/ haven't managed to grasp...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 7:15 pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital.

*** Major snippage ***

Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital
to
more corners of the economy. Or something like that.

Mike, I appreciate your thoughtful response. But to me it sounds like
a high school civics lesson given by an economics teacher. You
obviously have a much more idealistic belief in our system than I do.

To use your simple analogy, I think that money given by the government
to US companies will indeed flow through our plumbing system and into
the hands of the gutter rats.

You see everything working as it would in a textbook situation. Money
flowing from the top down, everyone receiving benefits. A great plan
if it would work.

But the USA isn't that way. Individuals now steal billions of dollars
at a time. Billions. American businesses are so cavalier in their
practices that they use "bailout money" slated to assist the public to
pay themselves bonuses for jobs poorly done. With no oversight, they

===========
If it's the bailout you object to, I don't have an opinion. You already have
my thoughts on import versus domestic spending. It's the only part of it
that makes any sense, and requires very little in the way of beliefs or
idealism. If you want to rave on about crooks and thieves, greed, corruption
and wholesale lack of ethics in public office, and a government grown too
big ... what can I possibly say? Pour you another beer if you like and we
can both cry into it. My suggestion is to just cook up another batch of
popcorn, pull up a comfy chair, and kick back to watch the biggest circus
sideshow to hit town in decades. There ain't jack else you or I can do about
it. (FWIW, I've tried banning my wife from watching that kook case Lou Dobbs
on CNN. She mistakes his gossip and ranting for hard news and facts. I'll
settle for her not parroting his nonsense in my presence, but she still
slips up now and then. One day, I really will climb the roof and clip that
satellite cable.)

"Morris Dovey" wrote

I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a lot
of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin times
with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a lot of
people - so I won't.

Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card debt,
in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not
offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Hey Swing.

Not to rain on your parade but ---
I really do not care how much interest the thieves charge.
I still use my credit cards daily and
I get to use their money for 30 days
while mine gets 30 days of interest (all be it mighty small in comparison)

I Pay Them All Off when billed.

I have done so for years (about 30 of them) as that was when I figured out how they went about charging interest.

P D Q


"Swingman" wrote in message ...
"Morris Dovey" wrote

I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a lot
of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin times
with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a lot of
people - so I won't.

Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card debt,
in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not
offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Feb 1, 5:39*am, "MikeWhy" wrote:
. (FWIW, I've tried banning my wife from watching that kook case Lou Dobbs
on CNN. She mistakes his gossip and ranting for hard news and facts. I'll
settle for her not parroting his nonsense in my presence, but she still
slips up now and then. One day, I really will climb the roof and clip that
satellite cable.)

Lou blathers on about whatever will sell him books. Just a windbag
from the Limbaugh school.
Lou figures if it works for Rush on the right, it ought to work for
him on the so-called left.
They're both talking heads with very little substance or soul.

Funny thing is, sometimes both of them slip up and say something true.

BTW, isn't there an amendment that deals with cable snipping
somewhere? G

On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:42:22 -0500, "PDQ" wrote:

Hey Swing.

Not to rain on your parade but ---
I really do not care how much interest the thieves charge.
I still use my credit cards daily and
I get to use their money for 30 days
while mine gets 30 days of interest (all be it mighty small in comparison)

I Pay Them All Off when billed.

I have done so for years (about 30 of them) as that was when I figured out how they went about charging interest.

P D Q


Thirty days of interest? How could you have any interest payment if
you pay when billed? I've used credit cards for over 30 years, never
had an interest charge. I have Visa and Discover. With Discover, I
get "cash back." The problem with credit cards is most people buy
more stuff than with using cash, I guess it is the spontaneous
purchase syndrome. Most people, including the government, buy with
money they do not currently have.

Phisherman wrote:
....

Thirty days of interest? How could you have any interest payment if
you pay when billed? ...

He said "_mine_ gets..." -- meaning his money is in an interest-bearing
(albeit low) account for an additional 30 days before the billing cycle
date...

--

On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 02:47:51 -0600, Morris Dovey
wrote:

Robatoy wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:53 pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
Robatoy wrote:

Oh, and that money that is supposed to go around and around in a
closed loop system?

What makes you think it doesn't?

Well, somebody is siphoning it off somehow, I have less now than I did
2 years ago.

Not surprising - it's been an expensive decade. The costs of the
conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan have rippled out to affect everyone on
the planet. The damage done on 9-11 was not limited to the twin towers.
We're still recovering from Pacific tsunamis and Gulf hurricanes and a
number of serious floods around the world. Many people around the world
over-estimated assets and made investments based on faulty information
and unwise expectations, and those trillions of dollars haven't been
siphoned off - they never existed (except as numbers on paper) in the
first place. The costs of all of these things have not yet been fully
paid or even reckoned.

No one seems ready to figure the costs of Haiti, Zimbabwe, Somalia,
Georgia, Lebanon, Palestine, nor sub-Saharan Africa - and the Russian
economy is about to implode, which will produce some sizable ripples
outside their borders...

After the money-lenders and robber barons and tax people and utility
gougers skim off the bulk of it?

So? Stay away from the money-lenders. Look for suppliers who aren't
robbers. Innovate to minimize dependence on utility gougers. Look for
ways to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely required - and actively
work to shrink those requirements.

Oh, I do those things. I was born Dutch, not stupid. Unfortunately,
too many people are getting raped on a regular basis.

I know you do - and this is a good time for us all to consider the
positive aspects of traditional Dutch culture. Hmm - I wonder how much
of that Dutch-ness came from further north?

What's with 20% on credit cards when prime is 1 %?
The problem is that I am not the only one affecting the economy.

I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a
lot of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin
times with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a
lot of people - so I won't.

The money a working man spends to heat his home goes up the chimney,
so to speak, never to return as anything worthwhile.

Well, that's a choice for the working man to make. It's not a given that
it /has/ go up the chimney...

Most people are not in a position to make those choices. Apartment
building dwellers for instance.

Again, it's all about choices one /is/ in a position to make.

Many economic models work well as long as you exclude the predators.

And the ones that do work well in the real world, do so in spite of the
predators. The challenge isn't just to get rid of the predators - it's
also to not allowing yourself to be a victim in an arena where there
will always be predators.

You know that, I know that. But I don't think it is you and I that are
crashing the world economy.

I know for a fact that we're both trying to keep things going. This past
week I've been beating my brains out trying to figure out how to enlarge
the scope of what I've been doing to create jobs for sales people, jobs
for retrofit installers, and energy cost savings for end customers. In
broad concept, I'm almost comfortable - but in detail it becomes really
scary.

Coincidentally, the number of web site hits from Ontario this past week
has been extraordinary - and over the last couple of days the hits from
Quebec have been increasing rapidly. You guys know something I don't?

Yeah, it's COLD up here!!
And the new Fed budget has an incentive for home renovation - spend
$10K and get a $1200 tax credit next year.

I pity those who have high debt loads while their jobs are in peril.

Yup, but time and energy resources are better spent on producing
solutions to those problems than on agonizing over their effects.

I don't know what the solution is, but slamming the border shut isn't
it.
I don't believe you support that either.

Of course I don't, but I've never been very comfortable with boundaries
- probably the result of growing up in the midst of a culture in which
borders weren't of /any/ importance, a fact that western governments
/still/ haven't managed to grasp...

On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:46:45 -0500, Phisherman
wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:42:22 -0500, "PDQ" wrote:

Hey Swing.

Not to rain on your parade but ---
I really do not care how much interest the thieves charge.
I still use my credit cards daily and
I get to use their money for 30 days
while mine gets 30 days of interest (all be it mighty small in comparison)

I Pay Them All Off when billed.

I have done so for years (about 30 of them) as that was when I figured out how they went about charging interest.

P D Q


Thirty days of interest? How could you have any interest payment if
you pay when billed? I've used credit cards for over 30 years, never
had an interest charge. I have Visa and Discover. With Discover, I
get "cash back." The problem with credit cards is most people buy
more stuff than with using cash, I guess it is the spontaneous
purchase syndrome. Most people, including the government, buy with
money they do not currently have.


Not reading him right. He gets the credit card co's money interest
free for 30 days while his money, sitting in the bank, COLLECTS
interest for 30 days.

"Phisherman" wrote in message ...
On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:42:22 -0500, "PDQ" wrote:

Hey Swing.

Not to rain on your parade but ---
I really do not care how much interest the thieves charge.
I still use my credit cards daily and
I get to use their money for 30 days
while mine gets 30 days of interest (all be it mighty small in comparison)

I Pay Them All Off when billed.

I have done so for years (about 30 of them) as that was when I figured out how they went about charging interest.

P D Q


Thirty days of interest? How could you have any interest payment if
you pay when billed?

I get interest on the money I have in my bank account (credited monthly) meanwhile I am using VISA's money and letting mine moulder in my account.

I've used credit cards for over 30 years, never
had an interest charge. I have Visa and Discover. With Discover, I
get "cash back." The problem with credit cards is most people buy
more stuff than with using cash, I guess it is the spontaneous
purchase syndrome. Most people, including the government, buy with
money they do not currently have.

Agreed. I never buy on credit unless the money is already in my account to pay for the purchase when the VISA bill arrives.

The trouble with credit is that sooner or later the wolf will come calling and usually when one can least afford to pay up.

P D Q

wrote in message news
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 02:47:51 -0600, Morris Dovey
wrote:

SNIP
And the new Fed budget has an incentive for home renovation - spend
$10K and get a $1200 tax credit next year.

MORE SNIPPAGE

About that 1350 max - I hear the feds are going to make us do a "Green" assessment before and after to ensure that the "upgrades" actually worked before the credit will be allowed at "TAX TIME" and further that the people who do the work cannot be family members.

If I do it for myself, I cannot reap the reward.

Some caveat.

P D Q

"PDQ" wrote in :

I get interest on the money I have in my bank account (credited
monthly) meanwhile I am using VISA's money and letting mine moulder in
my account.

I've used credit cards for over 30 years, never
had an interest charge. I have Visa and Discover. With Discover, I
get "cash back." The problem with credit cards is most people buy
more stuff than with using cash, I guess it is the spontaneous
purchase syndrome. Most people, including the government, buy with
money they do not currently have.

Agreed. I never buy on credit unless the money is already in my
account to pay for the purchase when the VISA bill arrives.

The trouble with credit is that sooner or later the wolf will come
calling and usually when one can least afford to pay up.

That's the trick. I buy on credit all the time, but pay off each and
every billing statement. In fact, in order to prevent me from forgetting
to pay, I have ordered the CC comapnies to take the money automagically
from my checking account. So far all is going well, but I keep a strict
eye on each account.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Feb 1, 4:39*am, "MikeWhy" wrote:

My suggestion is to just cook up another batch of
popcorn, pull up a comfy chair, and kick back to watch the biggest circus
sideshow to hit town in decades. There ain't jack else you or I can do about
it.

Amen. Already in process. I am tired of feeling bad about the things
I can't do anything about. We have suffered (as Americans) decades of
bad leadership at a time, and yet we are all still here. I don't let
this stuff get to me as much as it did years ago. I have too many
other issues on my plate, so all things must be taken in perspective.


(FWIW, I've tried banning my wife from watching that kook case Lou
Dobbs
on CNN. She mistakes his gossip and ranting for hard news and facts. I'll
settle for her not parroting his nonsense in my presence, but she still
slips up now and then. One day, I really will climb the roof and clip that
satellite cable.)

With you there as well. My SO watches Fox and Friends. They can be
entertaining, they can also be pretty truthful about things, but they
also FOCUS on all things political. Mainly things that are wrong.
When she starts to makes us both miserable because she is up in arms,
I usually walk away.

I still get overwound about stoopid. But since my own personal theory
is that all politicians are pretty much the same, I gave up on getting
my blood pressure up over party lines, etc.

Robert

PDQ wrote:


.... snip

Agreed. I never buy on credit unless the money is already in my account
to pay for the purchase when the VISA bill arrives.

The trouble with credit is that sooner or later the wolf will come calling
and usually when one can least afford to pay up.


Something I have always done is to set up my accounting such that I have
credit card "reserve" accounts (with computer-based accounting systems,
this is now easier than ever). Whenever I use a credit card, I treat the
transaction just as if it were a check and deduct the amount to the
appropriate (Discover, Amex, MasterCard, etc.) reserve account. Then, when
the monthly bill comes in, the correct reserve amount is transferred back
into the checking account and the bill paid. Makes it real easy to see how
much money one has available at any time and there are no surprises when
the card bill shows up.



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Feb 1, 10:17*am, "Swingman" wrote:
"Morris Dovey" wrote

I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a lot
of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin times
with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a lot of
people - so I won't.

Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card debt,
in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not
offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

We haven't cut ours up. The repose in a drawer in case of emergency
need. Every once in a bit, we charge something, and pay it off when
the bill arrives...I often use them for gas purchases now that drive-
aways are such a PITA. Most places today demand payment inside before
pumping, or a credit card. I save the walk and use the card. We very
seldom use more than $150 worth of gas a month. Actually, we very
seldom use more than $100 worth a month, UNLESS MobilExxon ow whatever
its name is this week decides to up prices.

They're handy on trips, too, as a source of emergency funds if nothing
else.

Getting my job yanked out from under me a few years ago taught me
something about credit, as well as about Woodcraft.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message m...
PDQ wrote:


... snip

Agreed. I never buy on credit unless the money is already in my account
to pay for the purchase when the VISA bill arrives.

The trouble with credit is that sooner or later the wolf will come calling
and usually when one can least afford to pay up.


Something I have always done is to set up my accounting such that I have
credit card "reserve" accounts (with computer-based accounting systems,
this is now easier than ever). Whenever I use a credit card, I treat the
transaction just as if it were a check and deduct the amount to the
appropriate (Discover, Amex, MasterCard, etc.) reserve account. Then, when
the monthly bill comes in, the correct reserve amount is transferred back
into the checking account and the bill paid. Makes it real easy to see how
much money one has available at any time and there are no surprises when
the card bill shows up.



Must have taken a course in double entry accounting at some point.

All I have ever done is trust my little pea-brain to keep a running total
and my will power to keep out of the pot when there is not enough to cover the cost of an item.

Thusfar, I have never gone hungry.

P D Q



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Charlie Self" wrote in message ...
On Feb 1, 10:17 am, "Swingman" wrote:
"Morris Dovey" wrote

I cut up all my credit cards more than 30 years ago and did without a lot
of instant gratification - and struggled through some pretty thin times
with what I had. There isn't much I can say without offending a lot of
people - so I won't.

Au contraire ... if meekly accepting 18 - 30% interest on credit card debt,
in itself a clear manifestation of rampant ignorance/stupidity, is not
offensive, it's rather doubtful your words can be.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

We haven't cut ours up. The repose in a drawer in case of emergency
need. Every once in a bit, we charge something, and pay it off when
the bill arrives...I often use them for gas purchases now that drive-
aways are such a PITA. Most places today demand payment inside before
pumping, or a credit card. I save the walk and use the card. We very
seldom use more than $150 worth of gas a month. Actually, we very
seldom use more than $100 worth a month, UNLESS MobilExxon ow whatever
its name is this week decides to up prices.

They're handy on trips, too, as a source of emergency funds if nothing
else.

Getting my job yanked out from under me a few years ago taught me
something about credit, as well as about Woodcraft.

-------------------

I agree with you there. I would suggest a "Debit Card" for those emergencies which can crop up. As long as the money is there to support it. Any cash advance via a credit card has interest charged from the date of the advance to the date it is paid off. If one uses a Debit card all it costs is the ATM charge.

BTB, there are still a few places up here in "The Great Frozen North" that let one gas up first.

P D Q

wrote:

On Jan 31, 7:15Â*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:

Your anger and ire are misplaced. We're in the situation we're in by
spending our money overseas. Our largess with our neighboring countries,
through NAFTA, brought only the beneficients' scorn and disdain, while we
suffered loss of jobs and loss of capital.

*** Major snippage ***

Manufacturing builds a long supply chain, opening more
domestic markets, developing still more jobs, and circulating the capital
to more corners of the economy. Or something like that.

Mike, I appreciate your thoughtful response. But to me it sounds like
a high school civics lesson given by an economics teacher. You
obviously have a much more idealistic belief in our system than I do.

To use your simple analogy, I think that money given by the government
to US companies will indeed flow through our plumbing system and into
the hands of the gutter rats.


The government has no business giving taxpayer money to private businesses
unless they are doing so in receipt of services. The current plan is
having the government pick the winners and losers -- something the
government has failed at every time.

You see everything working as it would in a textbook situation. Money
flowing from the top down, everyone receiving benefits. A great plan
if it would work.

In free enterprise that is how it does work, and, despite the appearances
being given by the propagandists, is still working for the most part.


But the USA isn't that way. Individuals now steal billions of dollars
at a time. Billions. American businesses are so cavalier in their
practices that they use "bailout money" slated to assist the public to
pay themselves bonuses for jobs poorly done. With no oversight, they
aren't even breaking a law, and they aren't asked to give the money
back. After losing a few billion themselves, their was one banker
that used 1.6 million just to remodel his office!

Out of the 50 billion dollars that are spent on the war each year, how
have you benefited? Do you have better trade infrastructure in your
community? Did General Dynamics open a plant in your community? Did
Haliburton spread their new found wealth anywhere that you know of?
Lockheed? Have any of these companies that continue to make billions
from tax payer money helped you by sourcing the to your state? There
are evidenced situations where American companies overcharged
(Haliburton) overcharged the government by millions and millions...
and nothing is done except to ask for part of the money back.


Each of those companies you mention pay salaries to their employees, those
employees use that money to pay their mortgages (there's an interesting
concept, eh?), buy groceries, dine out, and basically participate in the
economy. The reports of Halliburton's overcharges were either grossly
overly sensationalized (no, I don't work for Halliburton or any of its
subsidiaries), the majority of the overcharges were due to differing
interpretations of legally reimbursable expenses. The Defense industry is
one of the most heavily regulated and audited industries in the country --
if someone were wanting to commit fraud or any other type of shenanigans,
that is not the industry to try to do it. Imagine if you had to open your
books to your customers, showing them your expenses, costs, with whom you
were doing business, and then negotiate a "fair and reasonable" profit
based upon your disclosed (and auditable) costs. That's the defense
industry. The government has access to all cost records, costs, and fees.
Each company negotiates the allowable profit on each contract, all costs
and expenditures are fully auditable.


A simple law won't reform American business practices. Laws won't
reform the criminal element of American business. Daily, we see more
Americans that have happily screwed the eyeballs out of their fellow
Americans so they can lead the good life. American business is
broken. Ethically, American banking is in even worse shape.
Corruption, cronyism, lack of ethics and lack of morals are what
American big business is all about.


You also forgot the most corrupt element of all, the ones who brought us
this lovely little housing bust -- the members of congress who, through
various legal extortion forced banks to make loans to people who the banks
knew would never be able to repay. Various pressures through the CRA (and
for those apologists, no, this has not been widely debunked. More than bank
mergers were threatened by CRA enforcement) conspired to keep lowering the
housing loan bar to the point that even welfare payments could be
considered as income in applying for home loans. It's not surprising that
bank boards got together to determine how best to spread the risk from
these toxic loans so that *their* bank didn't go under. After a time, I
suspect a number of them "went native" and then things really began to go
awry.


Think about that gawdawful first hearing with the auto makers where
they all flew up in their private jets to talk to Congress.


This was a bit disengenuous on the part of the congress critters (Does San
Fran Nan really need the airplane *she* demanded when becoming Speaker of
the House?). Private jets are actually a fairly cost-effective means of
transportation for company executives when their time availability is
measured in minutes and metered to ensure access for the highest priority
concerns. Private jets eliminate delays and permit them to continue working
while in transit by either holding meetings on the plane or by
teleconference. It just doesn't make sense for them to be flying
commercial, the company loses use of their time during delays.

What is more troubling is that they went to Washington at all to ask
for taxpayer money to support their private firms. Even more troubling is
that they expected to receive such money.

And at this point with the last bailout, there is an estimated 380
billion spent, and as much as half of that is totally unaccounted for;
the people that got the money (mostly banks at this point) refused to
even tell Congress where it went.


From my standpoint, some of this is delicious (but expensive) irony: the
majority of those banks, bankers, and investment firms are run by staunch
supporters of the Democrat party (you know, the party of the "little guy")


If you think that telling these folks to buy American will fix the
profound corporate greed and unethical behavior and make them models
for a high school civic class, we are so far apart on this we are on
different planets.

In a perfect world, the idea would work. But here and now, with our
system as it is with the people we have in charge, not a chance.

Well... that's it for me. I am going to prep the pit and the meat for
a nice brisket smoke for tomorrow. I hope to watch the game tomorrow
and watch the Redbirds pull an upset for all of us gray haired guys.

Robert

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough