I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

Not!

If your hand has to go between the blade and the fence, it is not safe with
that narrow of a cut.

You should be using your miter gauge or a miter sled to cut the 5" square
piece of wood. Any piece of wood that is being cut with a fence and is
close to being square increases your chance of kick back. The smaller that
pipe of wood or panel the more likely.

That said, wood can be cut successfully in many unsafe ways but you need to
be aware of the risks associated with those ways and let your gut over ride
any thoughts if tells you that you about do something unsafe.

On Jan 20, 9:07*am, Kent wrote:
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) *the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

I see nothing wrong with the operation and do similar operations
routinely -- the bearing side against the fence is long enough that
the prohibition against crosscutting w/ the fence in place isn't a
problem; you're actually making a rip cut albeit on a (relatively)
short piece of stock.

If you're uncomfortable w/ doing it by hand and/or w/ a conventional
dead cat, I'd suggest making a wide push stick (say 3") that would
give more stability. The commercially available "Gripper" would be a
model...

--

"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?



I concur with Leon, ... Not safe!

A while back I attempted something similar with a small piece of wood, - had
done this many times before, - this time I nicked the end of my middle
finger on my left hand on the saw blade.
Still too sore to fret a guitar string. Laziness and stupidity on my part.

Don't do it. : )

diggerop wrote:
"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?



I concur with Leon, ... Not safe!

A while back I attempted something similar with a small piece of wood, -
had done this many times before, - this time I nicked the end of my
middle finger on my left hand on the saw blade.
Still too sore to fret a guitar string. Laziness and stupidity on my part.

Don't do it. : )

I would not feel comfortable making that cut, I'd use a sled. If the
piece has to be *exactly* the same width, cut it a tad over sized and
use a hand plane to trim it to width.

Greg M

dpb wrote:
On Jan 20, 9:07 am, Kent wrote:
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

I see nothing wrong with the operation and do similar operations
routinely -- the bearing side against the fence is long enough that
the prohibition against crosscutting w/ the fence in place isn't a
problem; you're actually making a rip cut albeit on a (relatively)
short piece of stock.

If you're uncomfortable w/ doing it by hand and/or w/ a conventional
dead cat, I'd suggest making a wide push stick (say 3") that would
give more stability. The commercially available "Gripper" would be a
model...

Pushing it through by hand? Not safe in the least - major clenching of
the sphincter muscle. The "Gripper" is a great tool for this operation,
and I've used it to make many cuts similar to the one described and it's
been a breeze. I'd still be sure to use a splitter or riving knife
though, and keep constant pressure downward and towards the fence until
you've made it all the way past the blade. One of those long and tall
push blocks with a through handle and a good clean rubber mating surface
would be decent second choice. A push stick would be out of the
question; I hate those things.

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?
It has a good chance of changing the number of fingers on your hand...

I have a sled which I would use for this purpose. Neither of my hands would
be very close to the saw blade while I am using the sled.

Jim

Kent wrote:
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?
Do you have all of your fingers?

From your discussion it sounds like you were using the most important
piece of safety equipment, your brain. All the trinkets in the world
will not prevent an accident if you don't think and understand what your
doing.

While there may be other ways of doing what you did, you completed the
task with no bad consequences. However if you were going to make many
cuts like this there are better ways.

"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

I would have to agree with Leon on this, it is not a safe operation. I have
the same problem quite often and solve it this way:

Take the miter gauge and attach a long strip of wood to it, long enough to
be cut by the sawblade. Take your ripped board and place it against the
sawblade opposite the fence, and mark the miter gauge board to the width of
the ripped board. I usually put a stop block on the miter gauge at this
point. You can now cut the pieces to the proper size, A hold down on the
miter gauge is quite helpful.

"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

Not safe. You may get away with it 500 times, but it may also bite you the
next time. Too close for me.

What you need is a better push stick. Or should I say, push "device".

I have no trouble at all putting that through using my push device that has
a long flat bottom to hold the wood in place. Picture the handle of a hand
saw withthe hand grip hole. I traced the saw handle on a piece of 3/4"
plywood, made a flat bottom about 6" long with a 1/2" catch on the back.
Good grip, good control, lots of safety.

"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

If it doesn't feel safe, don't do it. I personally feel comfortable with
much narrower rips. The fingers that have no room ride on the fence,
gripping it and guiding the rest of the hand. They're not going anywhere. I
know that the entire saw, blade, and fence are aligned, adjusted, and tuned.
Nothing's coming lose or going to jump out to bite me. All the same, the
danger comes when you lose your respect for the saw's power to maim.

Why is your guard not installed? It contains the chips and improves dust
collection, and would have negated your need to ask this question. Don't
hesitate to install it, if you've removed it, when there's any question at
all about safety. Better still, leave it installed.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

Not safe. You may get away with it 500 times, but it may also bite you
the next time. Too close for me.

What you need is a better push stick. Or should I say, push "device".

I have no trouble at all putting that through using my push device that
has a long flat bottom to hold the wood in place. Picture the handle of a
hand saw withthe hand grip hole. I traced the saw handle on a piece of
3/4" plywood, made a flat bottom about 6" long with a 1/2" catch on the
back. Good grip, good control, lots of safety.

Maybe I'm not visualizing the cut the right way... the end piece will be
that plywood piece 4" by 5", right? In general, it sounds like a cut I'd be
comfortable with. I've also made pushblocks like the one Edwin described,
with sacrificial surfaces that could be sawed into. The main thing is to
either have the surface glued on, or screwed in a way such that it is not in
line with the blade.

Ed

On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent wrote:
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
think this unsafe I have no idea. How did you rip the other piece to
4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
one is freaking you out.

-Kevin

wrote in message
...
On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent wrote:


There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
think this unsafe I have no idea.

Reread your first sentence.




How did you rip the other piece to
4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
one is freaking you out.


Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
different matters. He simply used the wrong procedure to shorten the piece
of wood. Any time the wood is almost as wide as it is long and use the
fence you run the increased risk of the piece binding, for what ever reason,
and being thrown back at you. The guard "will not" prevent this, guards "do
not" prevent kick back when short pieces are being cut.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
think this unsafe I have no idea. How did you rip the other piece to
4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
one is freaking you out.

-Kevin


I don't know what the hard and fast rules are for clearance/distance of
hands away from a cutter.

But I know that a lot of it has to do with your body's reaction time,
for when a slip or kickback occurs which may push or pull your body or
body parts a certain direction.

Have you ever been watching a baseball game and seen a batter check his
swing and think he didn't "go," only to see the slow motion replay and
realize the bat traveled a much further distance that what appeared to
the naked eye?

There are times when we "think" we have plenty of room for our fingers
to clear, but when there's a slip or kickback, our body parts travel
much further than we think they would, before we have the ability to
check our swing.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Jan 20, 1:18*pm, "Leon" wrote:
....
Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
different matters. *...

Both of these are ripping operations. The 5" length is plenty long
enough for bearing against the fence imo.

I'd concur w/ the opinion of "if you're not comfortable, do something
else" but this certainly isn't in the high-risk category.

--

On Jan 20, 10:07*am, Kent wrote:
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) *the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

If you asked then you already are unsure and therefore unsafe.

I use one similar to this:
http://www.scrgeek.com/pics/ww/jigs/jigEdge4.jpg

Try different ones cut from plywood and see what you like. I never
liked the dinky orange stick that came with my saw and only used it
once or twice.
http://www.ptreeusa.com/Peach%20Graphics/push_stick.jpg

try a google image search
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...e+ push+stick

On Jan 20, 2:18 pm, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent wrote:

There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
think this unsafe I have no idea.

Reread your first sentence.

Reread my second sentence.

How did you rip the other piece to
4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
one is freaking you out.

Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
different matters. He simply used the wrong procedure to shorten the piece
of wood. Any time the wood is almost as wide as it is long and use the
fence you run the increased risk of the piece binding, for what ever reason,
and being thrown back at you.

If the piece is substantially wider than it is long, then absolutely
that is a high risk cut. I was watching the show "Holmes on Holmes"
once, and they were cutting short lengths of the wood I beams to use
as blocking. So they wanted to notch the top and bottom to fit
between the joists without any gaps. They had the new guy doing it,
and he was doing it with a circular saw. And Mr Holmes wasn't
satisfied with the results, so he shows the new guy how to do it. So
he proceeds to go to the table saw and run them vertically through
with just the fence. So, 1.5" against the fence, 15" or so wide. And
of course standing right behind it. How this guy still has all his
body parts I don't know.

But a short piece isn't by definition unsafe to run through the saw.
People make it less safe by using a push stick and give up a lot of
the control they would have had with their hands. A 5"x5" piece is no
problem to keep tight to the fence. In this case we are talking about
a piece of plywood, so it's not going to warp and pinch the blade.

I do often use a procedure for narrow short pieces that would get
people even more freaked out. I bring the blade all the way up, go in
half way, back out, flip end for end, finish the cut, back out again.
At this point you're going "No no no! never back out of a cut!" but
the problem with backing out is that you're bringing the wood back
into the back teeth of the blade, begging it to pick up the wood and
have a kickback. But with what I am doing the back teeth are never
involved in the cut at all, which for these small pieces I would just
as soon avoid entirely no matter what device you have to help you.
When you get into cutting narrow strips the wood wants to bow on you
at least a little bit an awful lot of the time, and I don't want that
happening beneath a pushing device where I can't see it. I watch
what the wood is doing and if it starts to warp I just kill the saw
and wait for it to stop. I have a backwards push stick I use to pull
the wood straight back. By never involving the back teeth at all I
feel it's safer.

-Kevin

"Leon" wrote in message
...
How did you rip the other piece to
4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
one is freaking you out.


Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
different matters. He simply used the wrong procedure to shorten the
piece of wood. Any time the wood is almost as wide as it is long and use
the fence you run the increased risk of the piece binding, for what ever
reason, and being thrown back at you. The guard "will not" prevent this,
guards "do not" prevent kick back when short pieces are being cut.

If it's safe to do so, there is reason to prefer to use the setup that's
already dialed in and locked on the saw. There is a point where it's too
skinny, too short, or the unguided cutoff is too long. 5"x4" with a 1"
cutoff doesn't ring my alarm bells. Somewhere in between is the realm of
self-fulfulling prophecies. It won't bind if it's well controlled and held
firmly to the fence. If it doesn't bind, it won't kink into the blade and
kickback. If you can control it well enough with a pushstick, use the
pushstick. I think you'll agree that the hand has better grip, feedback, and
control than the stick. If that weren't the case, we would all use a pusher
even on 30" or wider rips.

"dpb" wrote in message
...
On Jan 20, 1:18 pm, "Leon" wrote:
....
Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
different matters. ...

Both of these are ripping operations. The 5" length is plenty long
enough for bearing against the fence imo.

I'd concur w/ the opinion of "if you're not comfortable, do something
else" but this certainly isn't in the high-risk category.



5" is way too short to safely rip if the board is 5" wide.

wrote in message
...
On Jan 20, 2:18 pm, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Jan 20, 10:07 am, Kent wrote:

There is no such thing as a safe cut on the table saw. This one
doesn't have particularly more risk than any other. If I have room I
will always use my hand, much more control that way. You can easily
have the guard in place and use your hand on this cut, so why people
think this unsafe I have no idea.

Reread your first sentence.

Reread my second sentence.

I was answering your question/puzzled comment, not looking for an answer.



How did you rip the other piece to
4" wide? I don't understand why you felt that cut was safe but this
one is freaking you out.

Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are
two
different matters. He simply used the wrong procedure to shorten the
piece
of wood. Any time the wood is almost as wide as it is long and use the
fence you run the increased risk of the piece binding, for what ever
reason,
and being thrown back at you.



But a short piece isn't by definition unsafe to run through the saw.
People make it less safe by using a push stick and give up a lot of
the control they would have had with their hands. A 5"x5" piece is no
problem to keep tight to the fence. In this case we are talking about
a piece of plywood, so it's not going to warp and pinch the blade.

Ok, you are missing the point, I think, Length is not so much a problem
until the width begins to "approach" the same measurment as the length.
This increases the likely hood of the piece being able to spin/go in a
different direction other than perfectly parallel to the fence.



I do often use a procedure for narrow short pieces that would get
people even more freaked out. I bring the blade all the way up, go in
half way, back out, flip end for end, finish the cut, back out again.
At this point you're going "No no no! never back out of a cut!" but
the problem with backing out is that you're bringing the wood back
into the back teeth of the blade, begging it to pick up the wood and
have a kickback. But with what I am doing the back teeth are never
involved in the cut at all, which for these small pieces I would just
as soon avoid entirely no matter what device you have to help you.
When you get into cutting narrow strips the wood wants to bow on you
at least a little bit an awful lot of the time, and I don't want that
happening beneath a pushing device where I can't see it. I watch
what the wood is doing and if it starts to warp I just kill the saw
and wait for it to stop. I have a backwards push stick I use to pull
the wood straight back. By never involving the back teeth at all I
feel it's safer.

How long have you been using a TS????

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
...

If it's safe to do so, there is reason to prefer to use the setup that's
already dialed in and locked on the saw. There is a point where it's too
skinny, too short, or the unguided cutoff is too long. 5"x4" with a 1"
cutoff doesn't ring my alarm bells. Somewhere in between is the realm of
self-fulfulling prophecies. It won't bind if it's well controlled and held
firmly to the fence. If it doesn't bind, it won't kink into the blade and
kickback. If you can control it well enough with a pushstick, use the
pushstick. I think you'll agree that the hand has better grip, feedback,
and control than the stick. If that weren't the case, we would all use a
pusher even on 30" or wider rips.



You are assuming that if all goes well/ "if it's well controlled and held
firmly in place". Accidents typically happen when all does not go well.
Work around a TS long enough and you will eventually realize that all does
not go well 100% of the time. I'll be the first to say that I have used the
fence for stock that is close to square and often when cutting cabinet
panels I use the fence to cut to length panels where the fence setting is
greater than the length of the cut. Is that safe???? "NO"!!!. I do
however know what can happen if my hand slips, or if I don't keep the panel
tightly planted against the fence, keep a large portion of my body weight
on top of the panel, use stock that bows away from the fence, etc and I am
prepared for the consequences should the panel bind.

No amount of preparation can prevent every accident. Taking chances
increases the odds of having an accident.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
...

If it's safe to do so, there is reason to prefer to use the setup that's
already dialed in and locked on the saw. There is a point where it's too
skinny, too short, or the unguided cutoff is too long. 5"x4" with a 1"
cutoff doesn't ring my alarm bells. Somewhere in between is the realm of
self-fulfulling prophecies. It won't bind if it's well controlled and
held firmly to the fence. If it doesn't bind, it won't kink into the
blade and kickback. If you can control it well enough with a pushstick,
use the pushstick. I think you'll agree that the hand has better grip,
feedback, and control than the stick. If that weren't the case, we would
all use a pusher even on 30" or wider rips.



You are assuming that if all goes well/ "if it's well controlled and held
firmly in place".

You can take it for granted I make that assumption on every operation.
Otherwise, I would do it some other way.

Accidents typically happen when all does not go well. Work around a TS
long enough and you will eventually realize that all does not go well 100%
of the time. I'll be the first to say that I have used the fence for
stock that is close to square and often when cutting cabinet panels I use
the fence to cut to length panels where the fence setting is greater than
the length of the cut. Is that safe???? "NO"!!!. I do however know what
can happen if my hand slips, or if I don't keep the panel tightly planted
against the fence, keep a large portion of my body weight on top of the
panel, use stock that bows away from the fence, etc and I am prepared for
the consequences should the panel bind.

No amount of preparation can prevent every accident. Taking chances
increases the odds of having an accident.

I'll agree with the platitude, but I don't see what's so magic about square.
Is ripping 2" from a 10x10" square any better or worse?

Leon wrote:
"MikeWhy" wrote in message
...

If it's safe to do so, there is reason to prefer to use the setup that's
already dialed in and locked on the saw. There is a point where it's too
skinny, too short, or the unguided cutoff is too long. 5"x4" with a 1"
cutoff doesn't ring my alarm bells. Somewhere in between is the realm of
self-fulfulling prophecies. It won't bind if it's well controlled and held
firmly to the fence. If it doesn't bind, it won't kink into the blade and
kickback. If you can control it well enough with a pushstick, use the
pushstick. I think you'll agree that the hand has better grip, feedback,
and control than the stick. If that weren't the case, we would all use a
pusher even on 30" or wider rips.



You are assuming that if all goes well/ "if it's well controlled and held
firmly in place". Accidents typically happen when all does not go well.
Work around a TS long enough and you will eventually realize that all does
not go well 100% of the time. I'll be the first to say that I have used the
fence for stock that is close to square and often when cutting cabinet
panels I use the fence to cut to length panels where the fence setting is
greater than the length of the cut. Is that safe???? "NO"!!!. I do
however know what can happen if my hand slips, or if I don't keep the panel
tightly planted against the fence, keep a large portion of my body weight
on top of the panel, use stock that bows away from the fence, etc and I am
prepared for the consequences should the panel bind.

No amount of preparation can prevent every accident. Taking chances
increases the odds of having an accident.


A beginner,
When you cut plywood you should only use the fence when the width
against the fence is greater the the length being cut. Does this not
depend on the actual measurements? ie
5" X 3" ( 3" on the fence cut 5" ) would be unsafe?
5' X 3' ( 3' on the fence cut 5') would be unsafe?

In a word, no.
Make a crosscut sled for this type of cut - you'll like it. It's
stable, and easier to measure and control.

In general, any cut where the length of the stock is less than the
length of the blade is asking for trouble.

shelly

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:07:26 -0800 (PST), Kent
wrote:

I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

No. A square that small might turn and that may result in a nasty
kickback. You don't ever want a small piece of wood wedged between
the blade and the fence.

On Jan 20, 4:15 pm, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message

Reread your first sentence.

Reread my second sentence.

I was answering your question/puzzled comment, not looking for an answer.

No, you were being a smartass, and I responded by being a smartass
too.

But a short piece isn't by definition unsafe to run through the saw.
People make it less safe by using a push stick and give up a lot of
the control they would have had with their hands. A 5"x5" piece is no
problem to keep tight to the fence. In this case we are talking about
a piece of plywood, so it's not going to warp and pinch the blade.

Ok, you are missing the point, I think, Length is not so much a problem
until the width begins to "approach" the same measurment as the length.
This increases the likely hood of the piece being able to spin/go in a
different direction other than perfectly parallel to the fence.

By your rule it's unsafe to rip a 20x20 piece of ply to 19x20, which
is nonsense. Length has something to do with it. At some point it's
long enough to not make much difference, until it's big enough that
the fence not being long enough and being too awkward to maneuver
takes over. At some point it's too short to not be safe regardless.
I totally agree with the instinct of the OP to say this is in my gray
area, stop and ask questions.


How long have you been using a TS????

Never fails. Keep on doing what works for you. Don't assume I'm an
idiot because I do it in a way outside your experience.

-Kevin

On Jan 20, 3:07*pm, "Leon" wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message

...
On Jan 20, 1:18 pm, "Leon" wrote:
...

Ripping a narrow board and cutting to length a short piece of wood are two
different matters. ...

Both of these are ripping operations. *The 5" length is plenty long
enough for bearing against the fence imo.

I'd concur w/ the opinion of "if you're not comfortable, do something
else" but this certainly isn't in the high-risk category.

5" is way too short to safely rip if the board is 5" wide.

Nope....

Somewhere over that I'd start thinking about it, but w/ that much
bearing surface for the fence on ply I got's no problem w/ only an
inch or so cutoff...just where I'd balk I'd have to have a piece in
hand to see; I can't really say otomh what seems completely wrong.
2-3 ft, sure. Under 1, I'm not so sure...I'm sure a piece of roughly
that size I'll have done quite a number times in 40 years but can't
place a specific piece...

Again, my $0.02 is "what floats yore bote...if you're uncomfortable,
do some other way..."

--

On Jan 20, 4:21*pm, wrote:
....
In general, any cut where the length of the stock is less than the
length of the blade is asking for trouble.

No, that's taking a general rule and carrying it to an absurd
conclusion.

The point isn't the L/W ratio, it's whether there's sufficient bearing
surface on the fence to keep the piece from wanting to turn as it
heads thru the blade. A rail stile cut to length is obvious.

Where the transition point is, is, imo, somewhat nebulous and
dependent on operator comfort, material and even the saw/blade
combination (a good saw w/ sharp, appropriate blade is far better than
an underpowered one w/ a pos or dull blade that will want to bind/slug
down instead of zipping right on thru. A 5x5 piece of 3" oak I'd
treat differently from the subject ply as well...

--

Leon wrote:
"Kent" wrote in message
...
I would like to know if what I am doing on a table saw is safe. I have
ripped a board to 4" in width. I then have a piece of 3/4" plywood
that is approximately 5" X 5" and I would like to cut this to 4" wide
to exactly match (in width) the first piece I ripped. I am sliding
the 5" X 5" plywood through by hand holding it tight to the fence.
Pushing it through with a push stick does not "feel" safe to me. There
is plenty of clearance for my fingers when I slide it through.
However, since the board is only 5" across, it also does not feel safe
to me to have the plywood fully behind the blade with nothing on eiter
side as I am sliding it through. Miter saw would liekly be safer,
however, I am trying to exactly match the first board I ripped.

Is what I am doing safe or not?

Not!

If your hand has to go between the blade and the fence, it is not safe with
that narrow of a cut.

You should be using your miter gauge or a miter sled to cut the 5" square
piece of wood. Any piece of wood that is being cut with a fence and is
close to being square increases your chance of kick back. The smaller that
pipe of wood or panel the more likely.

That said, wood can be cut successfully in many unsafe ways but you need to
be aware of the risks associated with those ways and let your gut over ride
any thoughts if tells you that you about do something unsafe.


My most-used "push stick" is an inverted "U" shaped slider that
straddles the fence with the bottom shaped like the bottom of a shoe
which sits on the work piece and a heel which pushes it along. On top
is a wooden knob. It works as a hold down as well as a push stick. It
is made from three pieces of 3/8 or 1/2 plywood. I don't remember
where the idea came from. I'm sure I didn't think it up on my own.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

Social Security: World's biggest Ponzi Scheme.

-MIKE- wrote:

I don't know what the hard and fast rules are for clearance/distance of
hands away from a cutter.

But I know that a lot of it has to do with your body's reaction time,
for when a slip or kickback occurs which may push or pull your body or
body parts a certain direction.

In the scenario described I'd use my hand (4" is lots of clearance), but
I'd hang a few fingers over the fence to make it harder for my hand to
be pulled towards the blade.

Combined with the guard, I'd do this cut carefully but I wouldn't feel
particularly unsafe.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

I don't know what the hard and fast rules are for clearance/distance of
hands away from a cutter.

But I know that a lot of it has to do with your body's reaction time,
for when a slip or kickback occurs which may push or pull your body or
body parts a certain direction.

In the scenario described I'd use my hand (4" is lots of clearance), but
I'd hang a few fingers over the fence to make it harder for my hand to
be pulled towards the blade.

Combined with the guard, I'd do this cut carefully but I wouldn't feel
particularly unsafe.

Chris

Sounds reasonable.
I wasn't necessarily replying to you, but the general concept.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

wrote in message
...

By your rule it's unsafe to rip a 20x20 piece of ply to 19x20, which
is nonsense.

Not my rule, just a common sence approach of how to gauge safe from unsafe.
You do have to admit that 20 x 20 is more likely to cause a problem than say
20 x 80, but what we are talking about here is 5"x5" and 20 x 20 would be
much safer than that. There is no black and white, all or none safe
approach. There are always varing degrees of danger.


Length has something to do with it. At some point it's
long enough to not make much difference, until it's big enough that
the fence not being long enough and being too awkward to maneuver
takes over. At some point it's too short to not be safe regardless.
I totally agree with the instinct of the OP to say this is in my gray
area, stop and ask questions.


How long have you been using a TS????

Never fails. Keep on doing what works for you. Don't assume I'm an
idiot because I do it in a way outside your experience.


I am not assuming anything here, nor do I think you sound like an idiot.
Where did you get that idea? You simply sound inexperienced whether you are
or not. I do things quite often that are not necessarily considered safe
but I deal with those situations as they come up. The OP sounds
inexperienced and the best approach here is to warn against an unsafe
procedure rather than give him a false sense of security and risk being
injured. With time he will learn through close calls and hopefully only
close calls that the unexpected can happen at any moment. Experience will
help him recognize those times and how to better deal with the task.

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
...

I'll agree with the platitude, but I don't see what's so magic about
square. Is ripping 2" from a 10x10" square any better or worse?


Square or close to it is a good rule of thumb of observe that you are
starting to deal with a shape that is less going to be less stable against
the fence than material that is longer than it is wide.

"Keith nuttle" wrote in message
...

A beginner,
When you cut plywood you should only use the fence when the width against
the fence is greater the the length being cut. Does this not depend on
the actual measurements? ie
5" X 3" ( 3" on the fence cut 5" ) would be unsafe?
5' X 3' ( 3' on the fence cut 5') would be unsafe?


I think you are on track if I read you correctly. Basically, think which
orientation the stock is in and how the blade would have more leverage to
pull the edge against the fence away from the fence. If that happens
kick back is almost inevitable. The smaller the piece the greater the
risk.

On Jan 20, 5:21*pm, wrote:
In a word, no.
Make a crosscut sled for this type of cut - you'll like it. It's
stable, and easier to measure and control.

In general, any cut where the length of the stock is less than the
length of the blade is asking for trouble.

shelly

I would agree with this. The sled is the way to go and you will
always have it. My read on what the OP said tells me he is using one
of those push sticks with the little notch on the end, which is fine
for this with the guard in place. But if it isn't then he should have
a shoe type of push device.

Take this advice from somebody that did cut the end of his finger off,
the day I did it the did not feel safe doing what I was doing, but
could not find an intellectual reason that anything would go wrong, so
I did it. Things happened so fast after that I still can't believe
it. Doing what you described just brought back that same feeling, I
even went out to the table saw (uplugged) and simulated it. There is
no way I would put my hand into that situation. Make the sled, it
will be one of the most used tools in your shop.

-Jim

4" is plenty, just be ready and Slide the heel of your hand along the
fence and anticipate where your weight is bearing, should anything go
wrong.

Crosscutting with a miter gauge and a rip fence is about the most
dangerous thing you can do.

(RM MS) wrote in news:16623-49776921-2604@storefull-
3312.bay.webtv.net:

4" is plenty, just be ready and Slide the heel of your hand along the
fence and anticipate where your weight is bearing, should anything go
wrong.

Crosscutting with a miter gauge and a rip fence is about the most
dangerous thing you can do.



Somewhere I picked up the tip to hook your outside fingers over the fence
as you made a cut on a narrow piece. That way, your hand won't be able to
get any closer to the blade than as far as your fingers can stretch.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as some
writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Somewhere I picked up the tip to hook your outside fingers over the fence
as you made a cut on a narrow piece. That way, your hand won't be able to
get any closer to the blade than as far as your fingers can stretch.

Puckdropper


Until you slip.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...

Somewhere I picked up the tip to hook your outside fingers over the fence
as you made a cut on a narrow piece. That way, your hand won't be able
to get any closer to the blade than as far as your fingers can stretch.

Puckdropper


Until you slip.

There is that. Darwin takes care of his own. Doesn't matter how wide or
narrow the cut is if you're prone to that. Maybe make appropriate allowances
by permanently removing the key from the power switch.