In article ,
Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Robatoy wrote:
On Dec 10, 2:27 pm, "Upscale" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:EaO%k.6509
To the contrary, I would be a fool if I accepted at face value the claims
of
someone as rabidly anti-gun as yourself to be a gun owner with extensive
shooting experience.
Something you said made me think a bit and I'm come to the conclusion that
you don't understand fully what I've trying to say. Perhaps it's partly
the
cause of the friction between us. I'm not "anti-gun". I'm anti-everybody
having a gun and the average citizen being able to get a carry permit.
There's a big difference between the first and the second as far as I'm
concerned.

Does that make any sense to you? Owning a gun comes with a significant
sense
of responsibility. Your firearms laws negate any real responsibility.

One other thing. I don't cheat and I don't lie. As far as you accepting
anything at face value, that's up to you, but you'd be 100% wrong in this
case.

Give it up. NObody has EVER been able to make Miller see anything
other than his own (often wrong) viewpoints. You, my friend, are
wasting your time. I'd put him close to par with Timbo The Hot Air-
inflatable Clown.

You honor me deeply by association with one of the few clear thinkers
in this blabfest. And its good to know that I bug you enough that
you feel the need to invent pet names of aggravation.
Game ... set ... match (as always).

Dream on, ****face. It is YOU who is infatuated with ME. Now go play
with somebody else. I have very little time for you.

"Charlie Groh" wrote:

You're still on the arrogant side...you consider the
"average" citizen to be pretty far down on the evolutionary scale,
apparently. What *is* average?

Nah, that position is left to the TV entertainment programming
geniuses.

Newton Minnow had it right more than 40 years ago.

Lew

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 02:04:50 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Charlie Groh" wrote:

You're still on the arrogant side...you consider the
"average" citizen to be pretty far down on the evolutionary scale,
apparently. What *is* average?

Nah, that position is left to the TV entertainment programming
geniuses.

Newton Minnow had it right more than 40 years ago.

Lew

....and Marshal McLuhan: "The Medium is the Message"...but it's not
some grand cabal, doncha know. ( Interestingly, given the "sides
taken" in this thread, McLuhan is/was Canadian...).

"Charlie Groh" wrote in message
enforcement. You're still on the arrogant side..

Maybe, but so what?

"average" citizen to be pretty far down on the evolutionary scale,
apparently. What *is* average?

You're right about that. I don't have a very good opinion of humanity in
general. Despite thousands of years of culture and development, at the drop
of a hat, man will turn into greedy, self indulgent animals without a shred
of consideration for their fellows. *That's* what I consider average. So no,
don't expect me to support arming people based on personal choice.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
willing to. This is going to be fun. One person would trust is Robatoy.

You've got to be kidding. He's clinically insane.

Yeah, but he's Canadian. That puts him miles above someone like you.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
In other words, you think most people shouldn't be allowed to have them.

You'd be right.

That makes you anti-gun.

Maybe for your country. I'm Canadian. For our country, it's perfectly normal
for the vast majority of Canadians never to have even held a gun before.
That's something you'll never be able to understand ~ just the same as I
might never be able to completely understand the American need to be armed.

Whatever. You're obviously strongly anti-gun, and your claim to own them
is
simply not plausible.

Your opinion. I guess that makes you fallible just like everybody else.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:00:45 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote:


"Charlie Groh" wrote in message
enforcement. You're still on the arrogant side..

Maybe, but so what?

....so it colors whatever you say with bias. I figured loooong ago
that there were a helluva lotta really smart people on this planet of
ours...what produced that epiphany isn't germane here, the fact that I
*got* that concept most assuredly is.

"average" citizen to be pretty far down on the evolutionary scale,
apparently. What *is* average?

You're right about that. I don't have a very good opinion of humanity in
general. Despite thousands of years of culture and development, at the drop
of a hat, man will turn into greedy, self indulgent animals without a shred
of consideration for their fellows. *That's* what I consider average. So no,
don't expect me to support arming people based on personal choice.

....but that isn't the point. The point is *defense* against those who
have an illegal means of arming themselves against *you* and *I*...and
it doesn't really matter where on this continent, eh?! (...couldn't
resist, LOL). Whatever you think of your fellow man, rest assured
plenty of *bad* folks out there relish the though of an unarmed and
vulnerable *you!* And, no, they might not be as smart as you, either.

cg

"Charlie Groh" wrote in message
enforcement. You're still on the arrogant side..

Maybe, but so what?

...so it colors whatever you say with bias. I figured loooong ago

Then you could say that about everybody. Anybody with a personality has
their own sense of self-worth which they project to others and could be
considered arrogance.

plenty of *bad* folks out there relish the though of an unarmed and
vulnerable *you!* And, no, they might not be as smart as you, either.

I don't know how old you are Charlie, but maybe you can relate. I'm 54. When
I went to school, just like any other school of any time and place, there
were bullies, people to be afraid of. You dealt with that as you were able.
But, nowhere in my experience in all the schools I attended were there
students that felt the need to be armed. I'm talking about knives. These
days, kids are carrying knives (and sometimes guns) into school, when they
go shopping, wherever. ~ All with the thought that they need to be armed for
protection. Guns are a simple extension of that thinking. Going about your
life day to day while living in an atmosphere of fear is a terrible way to
live.

Thinking smart and being careful is advisable anywhere. The need to carry
armament tells me there's something intrinsically wrong with society. That's
how I feel. Obviously, many disagree with me. It's their right to think that
way, but for Christ's sake, give me the same right.

In article , "Upscale" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
willing to. This is going to be fun. One person would trust is Robatoy.

You've got to be kidding. He's clinically insane.

Yeah, but he's Canadian. That puts him miles above someone like you.


There you go again, unable to debate *anything* without descending to personal
insults directed at your opponent.

Grow up.

In article , "Upscale" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
In other words, you think most people shouldn't be allowed to have them.

You'd be right.

That makes you anti-gun.

Maybe for your country. I'm Canadian. For our country, it's perfectly normal
for the vast majority of Canadians never to have even held a gun before.

How sad.

That's something you'll never be able to understand ~ just the same as I
might never be able to completely understand the American need to be armed.

No, you probably never will.

Whatever. You're obviously strongly anti-gun, and your claim to own them is
simply not plausible.

Your opinion. I guess that makes you fallible just like everybody else.

Fallible, yes. Gullible, no.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
You've got to be kidding. He's clinically insane.

There you go again, unable to debate *anything* without descending to
personal
insults directed at your opponent.

Grow up.

Well then, I'll call you another name. You're a hypocrite. Truly, your
presumed arrogance is overwhelming. You feel free to throw an insult in
Robatoy's direction but immediately jump on me for doing the same to you.
You're living in an immature child's fantasy world where you feel free to do
as you please but cry like a baby when someone does it to you.

Grow up? Try looking in the mirror for once in your life, you little baby.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
Fallible, yes. Gullible, no.

Here's another name for you. You're a coward. I've given you the opportunity
to prove me a liar as you called me (would that be what you call descending
to personal insults Doug?) and I guess you're backing down on it because
you're apparently not man enough to take me up on my challenge.

You can't take the chance I was telling the truth because apparently you're
too immature to deal with the possibility of admitting you were wrong. Hey,
no surprise there at all. You need your gun to prop up what little manhood
you might have.

(If anybody finds me dead, you might consider that Doug grew some balls and
showed up at my front door).

Are we having fun yet?

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:56:03 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote:


"Charlie Groh" wrote in message
enforcement. You're still on the arrogant side..

Maybe, but so what?

...so it colors whatever you say with bias. I figured loooong ago

Then you could say that about everybody. Anybody with a personality has
their own sense of self-worth which they project to others and could be
considered arrogance.

plenty of *bad* folks out there relish the though of an unarmed and
vulnerable *you!* And, no, they might not be as smart as you, either.

I don't know how old you are Charlie, but maybe you can relate. I'm 54. When
I went to school, just like any other school of any time and place, there
were bullies, people to be afraid of. You dealt with that as you were able.
But, nowhere in my experience in all the schools I attended were there
students that felt the need to be armed. I'm talking about knives. These
days, kids are carrying knives (and sometimes guns) into school, when they
go shopping, wherever. ~ All with the thought that they need to be armed for
protection. Guns are a simple extension of that thinking. Going about your
life day to day while living in an atmosphere of fear is a terrible way to
live.

OK...I have 6 decades down and hopefully a couple or three to
go...grew up in wonderful Orange County, CA...Dismaland, you know, the
Tragic Kingdom. Pretty idyllic growing up...not so now, but livable,
yanno? I do my craft, do alot of photography, teach high schoolers
how to march (marching band) and on the side contract for a living.
Got a little education...went to war in lovely SE Asia and got to fly
helo-co-peters (shot more rounds in a minute than most people would
shoot in a lifetime...this is also where I had that epiphany I
mentioned earlier, yup.) and didn't own a handgun until 3 years
ago...'cause it helps me feel like I can protect myself and my
property.

Thinking smart and being careful is advisable anywhere. The need to carry
armament tells me there's something intrinsically wrong with society. That's
how I feel. Obviously, many disagree with me. It's their right to think that
way, but for Christ's sake, give me the same right.

There *is* something wrong with society, man, and *my* opinion is that
whatever it is, it ain't gonna run me down. There are a LOT of folks
like me, by FAR the huge majority who will never have to pull a
trigger at anything other than a man target or a tin can. Sure there
are those exceptions who "go postal and all," but I submit to you the
unrealized/underreported statistics of "protection" or "deterence" by
far outweigh those anomolies.

cg

BTW...you have points, surely...however,it's a grave usenet protocol
error to snip-out pieces of preceding posts (it's OK if so noted by
snip even though frowned upon). That practice could and does
produce missunderstandings for those reading a thread for the first
time...not to mention those who've written those (may be) relevant (to
them) words. Dig? You're a smart fellow...

"Charlie Groh" wrote in message
are those exceptions who "go postal and all," but I submit to you the
unrealized/underreported statistics of "protection" or "deterence" by
far outweigh those anomolies.

Ok, then I have no choice except to acquiesce to your opinion/experience.
And, I'll admit that even though I like to think I'm cognizant of what's
going on through my friends and connections, I could well be truly unaware
of what's really happening. You just can't ever know for sure can you?

produce missunderstandings for those reading a thread for the first
time...not to mention those who've written those (may be) relevant (to
them) words. Dig? You're a smart fellow...

Yup, that's one of the serious downfalls of this means of communication.
Talking in text will never approach all the inflections and idiosyncrasies
we experience when talking to someone in person.

Pax

In article , "Upscale" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
Fallible, yes. Gullible, no.

Here's another name for you. You're a coward. I've given you the opportunity
to prove me a liar as you called me (would that be what you call descending
to personal insults Doug?) and I guess you're backing down on it because
you're apparently not man enough to take me up on my challenge.

Oh, I'll be happy to take you up on that challenge -- just not with Robatoy as
referee.

How about Tim Daneliuk instead?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
Oh, I'll be happy to take you up on that challenge -- just not with
Robatoy as
referee.

How about Tim Daneliuk instead?

Sure, you fly him up to Toronto. While ideologically, Tim is an expletive,
you're nothing more than a cut rate flim-flam artist. You suggesting Tim
while thinking that I'd turn him down shows that you have no intention
whatsoever to take me up on my challenge. A simple picture with me and Tim
is all it would take to validate the truth. Hell, I might even get along
with the guy if I met him in person.

Your problem is you think you're being clever while failing miserably at it.
You need to grow up and be a man. As it is, all you've done is demonstrate
that mentally, you've yet to experience puberty.

Obviously, you don't have anything tangible to offer, so this thread is
finished as far as I'm concerned until if or when you come back with
something worthwhile.

Go ahead, you can have the final response.

On Dec 11, 8:43*am, "Upscale" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
Oh, I'll be happy to take you up on that challenge -- just not with
Robatoy as
referee.

How about Tim Daneliuk instead?

Sure, you fly him up to Toronto. While ideologically, Tim is an expletive,
you're nothing more than a cut rate flim-flam artist. You suggesting Tim
while thinking that I'd turn him down shows that you have no intention
whatsoever to take me up on my challenge. A simple picture with me and Tim
is all it would take to validate the truth. Hell, I might even get along
with the guy if I met him in person.

Your problem is you think you're being clever while failing miserably at it.
You need to grow up and be a man. As it is, all you've done is demonstrate
that mentally, you've yet to experience puberty.

Obviously, you don't have anything tangible to offer, so this thread is
finished as far as I'm concerned until if or when you come back with
something worthwhile.

Go ahead, you can have the final response.

I am advised that, as the plaintiff, I am no longer to participate in
any discussion involving Doug Miller's libelous utterances against my
person.

Not that I will miss him much.

r

Robatoy wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:43 am, "Upscale" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
Oh, I'll be happy to take you up on that challenge -- just not with
Robatoy as
referee.
How about Tim Daneliuk instead?
Sure, you fly him up to Toronto. While ideologically, Tim is an expletive,
you're nothing more than a cut rate flim-flam artist. You suggesting Tim
while thinking that I'd turn him down shows that you have no intention
whatsoever to take me up on my challenge. A simple picture with me and Tim
is all it would take to validate the truth. Hell, I might even get along
with the guy if I met him in person.

Your problem is you think you're being clever while failing miserably at it.
You need to grow up and be a man. As it is, all you've done is demonstrate
that mentally, you've yet to experience puberty.

Obviously, you don't have anything tangible to offer, so this thread is
finished as far as I'm concerned until if or when you come back with
something worthwhile.

Go ahead, you can have the final response.

I am advised that, as the plaintiff, I am no longer to participate in
any discussion involving Doug Miller's libelous utterances against my
person.

You have your own person? I thought slavery was illegal, even in
Canada. Boy did I miss something ...



Not that I will miss him much.

r


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 02:52:26 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote:


"Charlie Groh" wrote in message
are those exceptions who "go postal and all," but I submit to you the
unrealized/underreported statistics of "protection" or "deterence" by
far outweigh those anomolies.

Ok, then I have no choice except to acquiesce to your opinion/experience.
And, I'll admit that even though I like to think I'm cognizant of what's
going on through my friends and connections, I could well be truly unaware
of what's really happening. You just can't ever know for sure can you?

produce missunderstandings for those reading a thread for the first
time...not to mention those who've written those (may be) relevant (to
them) words. Dig? You're a smart fellow...

Yup, that's one of the serious downfalls of this means of communication.
Talking in text will never approach all the inflections and idiosyncrasies
we experience when talking to someone in person.

Pax


....heh, OK then. Take your last sentence, though...it sounds like
you're responding/commenting (agreeing?) to what I've written about
usenet protocol, and our faulty system of communication here, yet you
truncate my words? Hopefully it's an old dog/new trick thing!

I have respect for your opinion...after all, different circumstances
produce different people.


cg (and pax to you, too)

"Charlie Groh" wrote:

OK...I have 6 decades down and hopefully a couple or three to
go...grew up in wonderful Orange County, CA...Dismaland, you know,
the
Tragic Kingdom. Pretty idyllic growing up...not so now, but
livable,
yanno?

These days, you would be lucky to have access to the shooting range on
Katella ave.

snip
.... I
mentioned earlier, yup.) and didn't own a handgun until 3 years
ago...'cause it helps me feel like I can protect myself and my
property.

Ah yes, the clash between perception and reality.

Since I have a few years on you, BTDT (keep the T-Shirt), I'll offer
the following:

The brain still thinks you are an 18 year old stud.

Totally invincible.

OTOH, the body tells a different story.

The reflexes are not totally shot, but you have lost a couple of
steps.

Faced with a confrontational situation with some dumb 20 year old
hoodlum, you would be lucky if he didn't take your pea shooter away
from you and put it where the moon doesn't shine before you knew what
happened.

Father time is not kind.

As my mother often said, "...time brings changes we must learn to
accept."

Lew

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:52:48 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Charlie Groh" wrote:

OK...I have 6 decades down and hopefully a couple or three to
go...grew up in wonderful Orange County, CA...Dismaland, you know,
the
Tragic Kingdom. Pretty idyllic growing up...not so now, but
livable,
yanno?

These days, you would be lucky to have access to the shooting range on
Katella ave.

....nope, walk right in, brother...

snip
.... I
mentioned earlier, yup.) and didn't own a handgun until 3 years
ago...'cause it helps me feel like I can protect myself and my
property.

Ah yes, the clash between perception and reality.

....need a little more here...is not my perception reality? I know we
have different takes and all...

Since I have a few years on you, BTDT (keep the T-Shirt), I'll offer
the following:

....I would counter with the thought that it's not "reality" to try to
compare experience...

The brain still thinks you are an 18 year old stud.

Totally invincible.

OTOH, the body tells a different story.

....just got through dealing with 300 others of my age group trying to
relive a very physical and wonderful part of our lives...believe me
when I say I know of what you speak...

The reflexes are not totally shot, but you have lost a couple of
steps.

....true, but I stay strong (carpenter by trade and still do things
that require strength) and agile...last marathon was 2 years ago and
still under 5 hours (actually under 4, but I missed a turn! LOL)...

Faced with a confrontational situation with some dumb 20 year old
hoodlum, you would be lucky if he didn't take your pea shooter away
from you and put it where the moon doesn't shine before you knew what
happened.

I don't think I would be lucky, my friend...I think I would be
prepared. That said, I'm not out looking for confrontation, but if it
comes to my doorstep it'd better be ready to learn how to fly... the
hard way.

Attitude has a lot to do with self-preservation, would you agree to
that?

Father time is not kind.

....time is what you make of it, neh?

cg



As my mother often said, "...time brings changes we must learn to
accept."

Lew

"Charlie Groh" wrote:

...need a little more here...is not my perception reality?

Not really.

.... I would counter with the thought that it's not "reality" to try
to
compare experience...

Experience, other than as a point of reference, has nothing to do with
it.

...just got through dealing with 300 others of my age group trying
to
relive a very physical and wonderful part of our lives...believe me
when I say I know of what you speak...

Which should prove the point you have lost a couple of steps over the
years.

...true, but I stay strong (carpenter by trade and still do things
that require strength) and agile...last marathon was 2 years ago and
still under 5 hours (actually under 4, but I missed a turn! LOL)...

Congratulations, but strength is not the issue, it is reaction time.

I don't think I would be lucky, my friend...I think I would be
prepared. That said, I'm not out looking for confrontation, but if
it
comes to my doorstep it'd better be ready to learn how to fly... the
hard way.

What makes you think you would recognize a problem before it was too
late?

Chances are it won't be a direct assault.

Look at the poor 75 year old woman in Orange County this week.

Tied up in the trunk of her car for 2 days.

Strictly a sneak attack.

Attitude has a lot to do with self-preservation, would you agree to
that?

Attitude is 90% of most endeavors.

...time is what you make of it, neh?

Absolutely.

Lew

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:56:28 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Charlie Groh" wrote:

...need a little more here...is not my perception reality?

Not really.

... I would counter with the thought that it's not "reality" to try
to
compare experience...

Experience, other than as a point of reference, has nothing to do with
it.

...just got through dealing with 300 others of my age group trying
to
relive a very physical and wonderful part of our lives...believe me
when I say I know of what you speak...

Which should prove the point you have lost a couple of steps over the
years.

...true, but I stay strong (carpenter by trade and still do things
that require strength) and agile...last marathon was 2 years ago and
still under 5 hours (actually under 4, but I missed a turn! LOL)...

Congratulations, but strength is not the issue, it is reaction time.

I don't think I would be lucky, my friend...I think I would be
prepared. That said, I'm not out looking for confrontation, but if
it
comes to my doorstep it'd better be ready to learn how to fly... the
hard way.

What makes you think you would recognize a problem before it was too
late?

Chances are it won't be a direct assault.

Look at the poor 75 year old woman in Orange County this week.

Tied up in the trunk of her car for 2 days.

Strictly a sneak attack.

Attitude has a lot to do with self-preservation, would you agree to
that?

Attitude is 90% of most endeavors.

...time is what you make of it, neh?

Absolutely.

Lew

....done with the tit-for-tat, Lew. You have your POV and I have mine
and that's the beauty of it all. I'm comfortable where I'm at, sounds
like you are too...

cg