Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Home Depot?

Try http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Default.aspx

7000 KW wouldn't be a residential unit, it would supply 200 amp
service to more than 100 houses.


Very sincere thanks,

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

7000 KW!!!???

The one's I've seen are in the 7 KW range.

http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Pr...ARDIAN7kW.aspx

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 20, 2007 05:26 pm and
wrote the following:

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Home Depot?

Try http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Default.aspx

7000 KW wouldn't be a residential unit, it would supply 200 amp
service to more than 100 houses.

That's what I thought, he seems to be off my a small factor of 1000.

To OP, 7000KW == 7MW, that is a lot of juice.

--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:27:58 GMT, Nova
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

7000 KW!!!???

The one's I've seen are in the 7 KW range.

http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Pr...ARDIAN7kW.aspx

Hi again,

Indeed, my numbers were all screwed up... 'sorry.

I need to drive only a sump pump, and a small fan in a
direct vent gas heater. The units I have seen are in the 7KW
range, and I need a small fraction of that.

Thanks to all for your comments,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In article , Kenneth wrote:

Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

???

7000KW = seven megawatts.

You might want to check that again... or quit looking at industrial equipment.
g

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Actually, 5 to 10 KW *is* a standard residential backup unit.
7000KW is high-end industrial size.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

http://www.generac.com/Products/Resi...ooled/7KW.aspx

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:54:10 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , Kenneth wrote:

Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

???

7000KW = seven megawatts.

You might want to check that again... or quit looking at industrial equipment.
g

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Actually, 5 to 10 KW *is* a standard residential backup unit.
7000KW is high-end industrial size.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

http://www.generac.com/Products/Resi...ooled/7KW.aspx

Hello again,

Hey, lighten up... I was only off by a factor of 1000...BG

The units I have seen are in the range of 7KW, and I need
something on the order of 10-20% of that.

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In article , Kenneth wrote:
Kenneth wrote:
[snip]
I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
[snip]
The units I have seen are in the 7KW range

Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... g

and I need a small fraction of that.

If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan, then an
automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a reason you can't use,
say, a 1500-watt portable generator?

Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such as Basement
Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Kenneth wrote:

Hey, lighten up... I was only off by a factor of 1000...BG

I figured something went astray somewhere....

The units I have seen are in the range of 7KW, and I need
something on the order of 10-20% of that.

I don't think you're going to find an automatic unit much smaller than that,
to be quite honest -- maybe 5KW, but I can't imagine anybody making an
automatic unit as small as 700 watts.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
They make damn good generators:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp

Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
get lots of sources.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:04:55 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Actually, 5 to 10 KW *is* a standard residential backup unit.
7000KW is high-end industrial size.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

http://www.generac.com/Products/Resi...ooled/7KW.aspx

Hello again,

Hey, lighten up... I was only off by a factor of 1000...BG

The units I have seen are in the range of 7KW, and I need
something on the order of 10-20% of that.

Thanks,

It would seem that the switching equipment required would far outweigh
the generator cost. Were you looking for natural gas? I would think
that would be hard to find in that size as would something with a
large enough fuel tank to make this an extended use item.

Not fully knowing your issue I would suggest considering a battery
system sized to run your items for the immediate term (a few hours at
best) supported with a standard portable generator that you would have
plenty of time to set up in the event of a power outage. However, if
this is for something that you are going to be absent from for days on
end this isn't going to be an answer, but neither is a non-natural gas
generator. If the battery system backed by a generator seems like a
possibility, then you might take it further and look into whether
capacitor banks exist that will run the pump and fan for the immediate
term (2 to 3 hours maybe?). I don't know if they make those for a
residential purpose, but I know that where I work we installed a
capacitor bank to run all of the site lighting (many street lights and
pole lights) for emergency egress of an 8,000 person stadium as it was
less expensive than a hard piped generator sufficeient for the same
use.

Kenneth wrote:


I need to drive only a sump pump, and a small fan in a
direct vent gas heater. The units I have seen are in the 7KW
range, and I need a small fraction of that.

Thanks to all for your comments,

The transfer switch arrangement would be cost prohibitive for such a
small load. Depending on the average run time required you may be able
to get away with battery back-up using an "Uninterruptable Power Supply"
(UPS). Check out Tripp-Lite's web site for an idea of the prices.

http://www.tripplite.com/products/ups/

I checked a one for a 700 Watt draw , 10 hour reserve at about $850.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , Kenneth wrote:
Kenneth wrote:
[snip]
I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
[snip]
The units I have seen are in the 7KW range

Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... g

and I need a small fraction of that.

If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan, then an
automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a reason you can't use,
say, a 1500-watt portable generator?

Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such as Basement
Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.

Hi Doug,

I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...

We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
outages are not all that rare.

We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
away.

Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
more than 96 hours.

Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:37:02 -0500, Dave Hall
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:04:55 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Actually, 5 to 10 KW *is* a standard residential backup unit.
7000KW is high-end industrial size.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

http://www.generac.com/Products/Resi...ooled/7KW.aspx

Hello again,

Hey, lighten up... I was only off by a factor of 1000...BG

The units I have seen are in the range of 7KW, and I need
something on the order of 10-20% of that.

Thanks,

It would seem that the switching equipment required would far outweigh
the generator cost. Were you looking for natural gas? I would think
that would be hard to find in that size as would something with a
large enough fuel tank to make this an extended use item.

Not fully knowing your issue I would suggest considering a battery
system sized to run your items for the immediate term (a few hours at
best) supported with a standard portable generator that you would have
plenty of time to set up in the event of a power outage. However, if
this is for something that you are going to be absent from for days on
end this isn't going to be an answer, but neither is a non-natural gas
generator. If the battery system backed by a generator seems like a
possibility, then you might take it further and look into whether
capacitor banks exist that will run the pump and fan for the immediate
term (2 to 3 hours maybe?). I don't know if they make those for a
residential purpose, but I know that where I work we installed a
capacitor bank to run all of the site lighting (many street lights and
pole lights) for emergency egress of an 8,000 person stadium as it was
less expensive than a hard piped generator sufficeient for the same
use.

Hi Dave,

I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

Please see my response to Doug.

The main issue I confront is time. We have had 4 day
outages, and were we away, we would be in a tough spot.

Thanks again,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:35:32 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
They make damn good generators:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp

Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
get lots of sources.

Hi Doug,

Yes, freezing is (half) the issue.

I have a second (unused) flue in our chimney and could
easily install a gas heater using it, but...

It is my understanding that those heaters must have
electricity (to run the fan).

The water powered sump pump confuses me though:

If we had an extended outage, we would not have any water
pressure (or at least would not have it for very long.)

If I had electricity to pressurize our water supply, I would
just use it to power the pump I now have (unless I am
misinterpreting your comment about water pressure.)

You will see other issues elsewhere in the thread.

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:35:32 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,
Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
They make damn good generators:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp

Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
get lots of sources.

Hi Doug,

Yes, freezing is (half) the issue.

I have a second (unused) flue in our chimney and could
easily install a gas heater using it, but...

It is my understanding that those heaters must have
electricity (to run the fan).

The water powered sump pump confuses me though:

If we had an extended outage, we would not have any water
pressure (or at least would not have it for very long.)

If I had electricity to pressurize our water supply, I would
just use it to power the pump I now have (unless I am
misinterpreting your comment about water pressure.)

You will see other issues elsewhere in the thread.

Sincere thanks,

I misunderstood - I thought the sump pump was to prevent flooding. It
sounds like the pump is for a well, not a sump? The water powered pumps
work if you have city water and therefore water pressure independent of
your power. They are a solution to prevent flooding of a basement for
example if the power is out for the electric sump pump.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:04:14 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:35:32 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,
Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
They make damn good generators:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp

Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
get lots of sources.

Hi Doug,

Yes, freezing is (half) the issue.

I have a second (unused) flue in our chimney and could
easily install a gas heater using it, but...

It is my understanding that those heaters must have
electricity (to run the fan).

The water powered sump pump confuses me though:

If we had an extended outage, we would not have any water
pressure (or at least would not have it for very long.)

If I had electricity to pressurize our water supply, I would
just use it to power the pump I now have (unless I am
misinterpreting your comment about water pressure.)

You will see other issues elsewhere in the thread.

Sincere thanks,

I misunderstood - I thought the sump pump was to prevent flooding. It
sounds like the pump is for a well, not a sump? The water powered pumps
work if you have city water and therefore water pressure independent of
your power. They are a solution to prevent flooding of a basement for
example if the power is out for the electric sump pump.

Hi again,

My desire for backup electric power IS for a sump pump, to
prevent flooding. I regret any confusion. We are in a rural
setting, and have our own well. So, no electricity means no
water pressure...

Thanks again,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote:

Hi again,

Indeed, my numbers were all screwed up... 'sorry.

I need to drive only a sump pump, and a small fan in a
direct vent gas heater. The units I have seen are in the 7KW
range, and I need a small fraction of that.


Forget the automatic transfer part of you spec.

An automatic transfer switch will cost more that the engine-generator
set alone.

Based on the loads above, you will have time to start eng-gen before
the world ends.

Since this is for infrequent use, consider a 10HP-5KW, "Contractor"
generator.

Noisy as all get out but biggest bang for the $, for a short time
application (8-10 hours at a time).

Lew

I'm not sure that their auto transfer switch units are available below 7kw,
but do a search for Cutler Hammer generators. They have partnered with
Briggs and Stratton, C-H handles the auto switching and the load center and
Briggs powers the generator, either natural gas or propane. Take a look at
this site, it might recommend a unit. Good Luck.
https://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/gen...c/wattshow.jsp

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...

Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote

Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
more than 96 hours.

To borrow from the endless threads on rebuilding battery packs for tools,
why couldn't you extend the on time of the sump pump with additional battery
packs?

In fact I knew somebody who used deep discharge marine batteries for
something like this. He got the batteries from a charter fishing service who
used them for trolling motors.

Just an idea. I am not sure how practical it would be in your situation.

"Kenneth" wrote

Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
more than 96 hours.

Further threads provided additional info Application.

Years ago, we sold a mini SCADA unit designed spefifically for this
type application.

You would monitor the incoming power.

If it would fail, a contact would close, then call you and announce
the power was out.

It could also close a contact to electrically start a generator.

Found a lot a application in Canada for monitoring telecommunication
facilities out in the boonies that were only accessible by helo in the
winter.

This is at least 20 year old technology and had about a $3K cost back
then.

Today, the net will have revolutionized SCADA systems.

Try a Google for SCADA and see if small systems are still offered.

Lew

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:26:32 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Based on the loads above, you will have time to start eng-gen before
the world ends.

Hi Lew,

When I am home, I can easily continue to do what I do now:

The power goes out (often ice storms, but about a week ago a
fellow drove into a pole), and I fire up my portable Honda
generator, connect it up, and rest easy.

The issue is that we are often away from our home...

I am trying to find a reasonable way to protect our place
from freezing, and flooding, in that situation.

I appreciate your comments,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote:

Hi Lew,

When I am home, I can easily continue to do what I do now:

The power goes out (often ice storms, but about a week ago a
fellow drove into a pole), and I fire up my portable Honda
generator, connect it up, and rest easy.

The issue is that we are often away from our home...

I am trying to find a reasonable way to protect our place
from freezing, and flooding, in that situation.

See my post SCADA

Lew

Kenneth wrote in
news
*trim*


Hi again,

My desire for backup electric power IS for a sump pump, to
prevent flooding. I regret any confusion. We are in a rural
setting, and have our own well. So, no electricity means no
water pressure...

Thanks again,

It sounds to me like you need an alternative. Would a passive drain of
some sort be feasable? If you can keep water from entering your
basement, you don't have to pump it out.

How about a neighbor? His power's likely to be out at the same time as
yours, so he could start your generator and switch the sump pump over.
(You'll probably have to bake him a cake now and again or something.)

How much water are we talking about anyway? Does the pump run constantly
as it's raining, or does it run maybe 4 times a day? You could enlarge
your sump pit and size it to fit your longer average outages.

How about... I just thought of this: A pump that's turned by water
coming down your down spout. When it starts to rain, the pump starts
going and drawing water out of your basement. You might even be able to
use a water powered sump pump by directing the water from your roof
through it.

Solar electricity is getting better. You might be able to charge a bank
of batteries during the day and have them run your sump pump.

You could just go for a whole house generator and enjoy the extra power
it can provide while you're there. It's sure nice to not have to reset
all those clocks.

Keep thinking and asking, someone's bound to come to a workable solution.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Another thought:

Forget trying to react to a loss of power, use an alternate power
source from the git go for the sump pump and the furnace.

A couple of solar panels, some T-105, 6VDC golf cart batteries wired
in series to provide either 12VDC or 24VDC and a sine wave inverter to
run the sump pump on a full time basis.

The more batteries the better within reason,

6-8 would be manageable, IMHO.

Standard stuff on a crusing sailboat, and definitely less costly than
a SCADA.

Lew

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...

Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

The 7KW Generac is as small as I know. I am reasonably sure no manufacturer
bothers with any thing smaller. It gets to a point where the actual
manufacturing costs are pretty much the same the smaller units. Say you
could find a 4KW unit. Everything for the 4KW would pretty much be the same
as the 7KW that is available. The cost for the smaller generator head and
engine would only affect the manufacturing cost by a small margin. You still
need a cabinet to put it all in, plus a transfer switch. My bet is the
manufacturing cost would be $100 less than the available 7KW unit, so the
manufacturer does not bother to build them. So you want to buy a 4KW for
$1800, versus a 7KW for $2000? Buck up and buy the 7KW and put a few more
circuits on the transfer, and enjoy!

In another perspective, I work as a service tech for a company that sells
standby Generac, standby generators. In 10 years we have never sold a unit
less than 10KW. 10 years ago Generac built a 6KW unit. We had two in stock,
and they sat in stock until my boss built a new home. He put both 6KW units
on his home to get rid of them! There is virtually no market for the small
units, in fact our main sellers are 13-16KW units.
Greg

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:53:34 -0600, "Greg O"
wrote:

The 7KW Generac is as small as I know. I am reasonably sure no manufacturer
bothers with any thing smaller. It gets to a point where the actual
manufacturing costs are pretty much the same the smaller units. Say you
could find a 4KW unit. Everything for the 4KW would pretty much be the same
as the 7KW that is available. The cost for the smaller generator head and
engine would only affect the manufacturing cost by a small margin. You still
need a cabinet to put it all in, plus a transfer switch. My bet is the
manufacturing cost would be $100 less than the available 7KW unit, so the
manufacturer does not bother to build them. So you want to buy a 4KW for
$1800, versus a 7KW for $2000? Buck up and buy the 7KW and put a few more
circuits on the transfer, and enjoy!

In another perspective, I work as a service tech for a company that sells
standby Generac, standby generators. In 10 years we have never sold a unit
less than 10KW. 10 years ago Generac built a 6KW unit. We had two in stock,
and they sat in stock until my boss built a new home. He put both 6KW units
on his home to get rid of them! There is virtually no market for the small
units, in fact our main sellers are 13-16KW units.
Greg

Hi again,

Many thanks to all...!

You have pointed me in useful directions,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

How about this for the pump part:

http://www.absolutehome.com/web/cata...aspx?pid=70717

Nova wrote:

7000 KW!!!???

How's this (work safe):

http://www.kawasaki-gasturbine.de/en/i_e80gpb.htm

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:31:56 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

How about this for the pump part:

http://www.absolutehome.com/web/cata...aspx?pid=70717

Hi Doug,

A battery backup and inverter is a possibility, but we have
had outages as long as four days, and also have had
situations in which our pump cycled on and off every thirty
seconds or so for a week.

If those two situations were to coincide, I would need quite
a pile of batteries to stay dry.

Sincere thanks, as before,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth,

How about going for the smallest automatic generator that you can find and
then allowing your neighbor to tap into it during a power failure, right
after he checks your sump pump? That sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Your neighbor may have to do some leg work at his house, but he should be
able to run his circulating pump for heat, his well pump (assume he is on
well water as you are), and maybe a light or two. Granted, not all at the
same time, but it does offer him some incentive. Just a thought.

Peter.

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
...
Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

How about this for the pump part:

http://www.absolutehome.com/web/cata...aspx?pid=70717

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:39:47 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

I researched this problem when we were living with a generator..
Most places suggested a Honda 5000 and optional control panel.. a lot of bucks,
but a sweet unit..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

In article , "Peter Bogiatzidis" wrote:
How about going for the smallest automatic generator that you can find and
then allowing your neighbor to tap into it during a power failure, right
after he checks your sump pump? That sounds like a win-win situation to me.

As long as the neighbor is connecting to a receptacle, that's fine. If the
connection to the neighbor's house is hard-wired, then you have both Code and
safety issues. So install a GFCI-protected outdoor outlet on the side facing
the neighbor, and all is well.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:51:38 -0800, mac davis
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:39:47 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

I researched this problem when we were living with a generator..
Most places suggested a Honda 5000 and optional control panel.. a lot of bucks,
but a sweet unit..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing


Hi Mac,

Am I correct that the unit you mention is not automatic?
That is, it would not start on its own in the event of an
outage.

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:32 -0500, "Peter Bogiatzidis"
wrote:

Kenneth,

How about going for the smallest automatic generator that you can find and
then allowing your neighbor to tap into it during a power failure, right
after he checks your sump pump? That sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Your neighbor may have to do some leg work at his house, but he should be
able to run his circulating pump for heat, his well pump (assume he is on
well water as you are), and maybe a light or two. Granted, not all at the
same time, but it does offer him some incentive. Just a thought.

Peter.


Hi Peter,

Indeed, it would be a win-win, but...

My closest neighbor is on the order of a half mile. If I
could afford that cord, I could afford a big automatic
generator!g

All the best, and thanks for thinking about it,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:31:56 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,
How about this for the pump part:

http://www.absolutehome.com/web/cata...aspx?pid=70717

Hi Doug,

A battery backup and inverter is a possibility, but we have
had outages as long as four days, and also have had
situations in which our pump cycled on and off every thirty
seconds or so for a week.

If those two situations were to coincide, I would need quite
a pile of batteries to stay dry.

Sincere thanks, as before,

How about this and the remote start generator of your choice along with
the above battery powered pump?

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/921/docserve.asp

Kenneth wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:51:38 -0800, mac davis
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:39:47 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

I researched this problem when we were living with a generator..
Most places suggested a Honda 5000 and optional control panel.. a
lot of bucks, but a sweet unit..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing


Hi Mac,

Am I correct that the unit you mention is not automatic?
That is, it would not start on its own in the event of an
outage.

I think your best bet is to just bite the bullet and get a 7KW
Guardian or the like.

You can get one of those for about $2200 and shipping and
installation. The lowest I can find a UL approved automatic transfer
switch switch and an electric-start portable for is aroune $1500 and
then you're going to have to rig a fuel supply and whatnot and by the
time you're done you'll likely be back up to that $2200.

The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just don't
find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight that
reduces portability.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Kenneth,

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for the
battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by itself, then
add to that changing from solar power during the day...should be enough to
keep the sump pump running intermittely for a long time.

JAT

Skip
www.ShopFileR.com


"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , Kenneth
wrote:
Kenneth wrote:
[snip]
I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
[snip]
The units I have seen are in the 7KW range

Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... g

and I need a small fraction of that.

If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan, then an
automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a reason you can't
use,
say, a 1500-watt portable generator?

Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such as
Basement
Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.

Hi Doug,

I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...

We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
outages are not all that rare.

We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
away.

Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
more than 96 hours.

Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth,

I wonder if an RV heater(s) would fit your needs. These are designed to run
on propane and have a 12v electrical system. You could use batteries
recharged with solar cells to keep the batteries going. The heater dosent
have to keep the place toasty warm...just above 32 degrees most of the time.

Skip
www.ShopFileR.com

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:35:32 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Kenneth wrote:
Howdy,

Yes, this is OT, but you folks seem to know everything...g

I need to get an automatic backup generator, but my needs
are unusual:

The fully automatic units I can locate are all in the range
of 7000KW.

I need something on the order of 5-10KW. So, compared to the
"standard" residential backup unit, the one I am looking for
is really tiny. But, anything over that (approximate)
capacity would just be money wasted.

Might any of you suggest sources for such a small (but fully
automatic) generator?

Very sincere thanks,

Not sure about the automatic part, but Honda might have the answers.
They make damn good generators:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gencon.asp

Also, I saw a water powered sump pump as backup on "This Old House"
several months ago. The house water supply pressure drove the thing
when the power was out for the regular sump pump. Wouldn't solve the
fan issue though - I'm guessing you're trying to prevent a possible
freezing problem? Do a google on "water powered sump pump" and you'll
get lots of sources.

Hi Doug,

Yes, freezing is (half) the issue.

I have a second (unused) flue in our chimney and could
easily install a gas heater using it, but...

It is my understanding that those heaters must have
electricity (to run the fan).

The water powered sump pump confuses me though:

If we had an extended outage, we would not have any water
pressure (or at least would not have it for very long.)

If I had electricity to pressurize our water supply, I would
just use it to power the pump I now have (unless I am
misinterpreting your comment about water pressure.)

You will see other issues elsewhere in the thread.

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Skip Williams wrote:
Kenneth,

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
for
a long time.

If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because the
days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector required,
plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air mass
and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling 500
watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone, then
you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.


JAT

Skip
www.ShopFileR.com


"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , Kenneth
wrote:
Kenneth wrote:
[snip]
I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
[snip]
The units I have seen are in the 7KW range

Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... g

and I need a small fraction of that.

If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan,
then an automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a
reason you can't use,
say, a 1500-watt portable generator?

Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such
as
Basement
Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.

Hi Doug,

I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...

We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
outages are not all that rare.

We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
away.

Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
more than 96 hours.

Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)