J. Clarke wrote:
Skip Williams wrote:
Kenneth,

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
for
a long time.

If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because the
days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector required,
plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air mass
and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling 500
watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone, then
you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.


If the sump pump is running almost continuously (cycling every 30
seconds), it's beginning to sound like his money might be better spent
on a backhoe, gravel and drain pipe...

Doug Winterburn wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Skip Williams wrote:
Kenneth,

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient
for
the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
for
a long time.

If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because
the
days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector
required,
plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air
mass
and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling
500
watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone,
then
you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.


If the sump pump is running almost continuously (cycling every 30
seconds), it's beginning to sound like his money might be better
spent
on a backhoe, gravel and drain pipe...

He said that he had seen times when that happened, and also times when
he had had an outage for 96 hours--that makes for an engineering
spec--has to run the pump at 50% duty cycle for 96 hours plus whatever
margin one wants.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

I dont think Kenneth said his pump was recycling every 30 seconds..If it
was, I would agree with the poster that said he needs to invest in a back
hoe and some drain pipe.

He said his pump would last on backup batteries for 15-20 hours. My
thinking is that would be increased three fold if the batteries were
recharged using solar cells during the day.

IMOHO, I wouldnt trust a generator starting automtically and running while I
was away if it was a critical application. Too many factors involved.

Skip

www.ShopFileR.com
-
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Skip Williams wrote:
Kenneth,

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
for
a long time.

If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because the
days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector required,
plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air mass
and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling 500
watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone, then
you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.


JAT

Skip
www.ShopFileR.com


"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , Kenneth
wrote:
Kenneth wrote:
[snip]
I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
[snip]
The units I have seen are in the 7KW range

Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... g

and I need a small fraction of that.

If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan,
then an automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a
reason you can't use,
say, a 1500-watt portable generator?

Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such
as
Basement
Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.

Hi Doug,

I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...

We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
outages are not all that rare.

We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
away.

Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
more than 96 hours.

Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Somebody wrote:

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
the battery backup on the sump pump.

NBD

80W solar panels are less than $500.

T-105, 6VDC, golf cart batteries are less than $65.

A small inverter is less than $500.

Assume the sump pump requires 2A and operates on a 50% duty cycle
which would require 240W/hour.

I use 50% efficiency of solar cells for estimating, thus (80W)50% =
40W.

240W/40W = 6 panels or about $3,000.

T-105 are rated about 235AH.

If you cycle them between 70%-90%, they provide about 47AH/pair at
12VDC.

240W/47AH = 5 sets of batteries minimum, I'd probably use 6 sets or 12
batteries,
thus (12)$65)=$780

Panels....................$3000
Batteries..................$800
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$500

Total......................$4800

Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.

Lew

"Skip Williams" wrote in message
...


IMOHO, I wouldnt trust a generator starting automtically and running while
I was away if it was a critical application. Too many factors involved.

Skip


Better than staying home all the time! A standby generator is often the best
choice. Sure the genny could fail, **** happens sometimes. But then the sump
pump could fail to. It gets to some point where you have to put some faith
in something, or stay home 'cuz you are to paranoid up to leave!
Greg

Lew,

Plus the added advantage of "no moving parts' g

Less than he would spend on a auto start generator (yeah...right!), auto
transfer switch, etc. that would all work flawlessly while he was away.

Me..I would gamble on the solar thing firstg


Skip
www.ShopFileR.com

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

Somebody wrote:

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient for
the battery backup on the sump pump.

NBD

80W solar panels are less than $500.

T-105, 6VDC, golf cart batteries are less than $65.

A small inverter is less than $500.

Assume the sump pump requires 2A and operates on a 50% duty cycle
which would require 240W/hour.

I use 50% efficiency of solar cells for estimating, thus (80W)50% =
40W.

240W/40W = 6 panels or about $3,000.

T-105 are rated about 235AH.

If you cycle them between 70%-90%, they provide about 47AH/pair at
12VDC.

240W/47AH = 5 sets of batteries minimum, I'd probably use 6 sets or 12
batteries,
thus (12)$65)=$780

Panels....................$3000
Batteries..................$800
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$500

Total......................$4800

Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.

Lew

DUH I Screwed up.

(2A)(120V)(50%) = 120Watts, not 240Watts.

Reduce equipment as required.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

Somebody wrote:

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient
for
the battery backup on the sump pump.

NBD

80W solar panels are less than $500.

T-105, 6VDC, golf cart batteries are less than $65.

A small inverter is less than $500.

Assume the sump pump requires 2A and operates on a 50% duty cycle
which would require 240W/hour.

I use 50% efficiency of solar cells for estimating, thus (80W)50% =
40W.

240W/40W = 6 panels or about $3,000.

Actually: 120W/40W = 3 panels or about $1,500.


T-105 are rated about 235AH.

If you cycle them between 70%-90%, they provide about 47AH/pair at
12VDC.

240W/47AH = 5 sets of batteries minimum, I'd probably use 6 sets or
12
batteries,
thus (12)$65)=$780

Actually:

120W/47AH = 3 sets of batteries minimum.,
thus (6)$65)=$390

Panels....................$3000
Batteries..................$800
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$500

Total......................$4800

Actually:

Panels...................$1,500
Batteries..................$400
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$300

Total.....................$2,700


Use $3,000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.


Lew

Skip Williams wrote:
I dont think Kenneth said his pump was recycling every 30
seconds..If
it was, I would agree with the poster that said he needs to invest
in
a back hoe and some drain pipe.

He said his pump would last on backup batteries for 15-20 hours. My
thinking is that would be increased three fold if the batteries
were
recharged using solar cells during the day.

IMOHO, I wouldnt trust a generator starting automtically and running
while I was away if it was a critical application. Too many factors
involved.

Quoting one of his posts:

"Hi Doug,

A battery backup and inverter is a possibility, but we have
had outages as long as four days, and also have had
situations in which our pump cycled on and off every thirty
seconds or so for a week.

If those two situations were to coincide, I would need quite
a pile of batteries to stay dry.

Sincere thanks, as before,
--
Kenneth"

Also he didn't say that his pump would last on backup batteries for
15-20 hours, he said that that was the rating of the backup devices he
has seen on the market, which might not last nearly that long on his
worst-case duty cycle.

Skip

www.ShopFileR.com
-
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Skip Williams wrote:
Kenneth,

I wonder if a solar or wind powered charger would be sufficient
for
the battery backup on the sump pump. 15-20 hours is quite good by
itself, then add to that changing from solar power during the
day...should be enough to keep the sump pump running intermittely
for
a long time.

If his pump is cycling every 30 seconds and draws say 2 amps then
that's a 110 watt load---if it's winter then triple that because
the
days are short and you've got 330 watts worth of collector
required,
plus losses due to various inefficiencies. Not considering air
mass
and average cloud cover at his location and suchlike, I'm pulling
500
watts out of my butt as a number. At the 8 bucks a watt that I'm
seeing in various places, that's $4000 worth of collector alone,
then
you have to add inverter, batteries, etc.


JAT

Skip
www.ShopFileR.com


"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:06:14 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , Kenneth
wrote:
Kenneth wrote:
[snip]
I need something on the order of 5-10KW.
[snip]
The units I have seen are in the 7KW range

Seems to fit -- I'm not sure I see the problem here... g

and I need a small fraction of that.

If all you really need to power is a sump pump and a small fan,
then an automatic backup unit seems to be overkill; is there a
reason you can't use,
say, a 1500-watt portable generator?

Consider a sump pump with an alternative power source, too, such
as
Basement
Watchdog or Ace in the Hole.

Hi Doug,

I could use a small generator... In fact, I have, but...

We travel a fair amount, and living in rural New Hampshire,
outages are not all that rare.

We would be in trouble if we had an outage while we were
away.

Beyond that, the standard "battery backup" units for the
sump pump seem to have a run time on the order of 15-20
hours and I recall an ice storm in which we lost power for
more than 96 hours.

Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Lew Hodgett wrote:

80W solar panels are less than $500.

T-105, 6VDC, golf cart batteries are less than $65.

A small inverter is less than $500.

Assume the sump pump requires 2A and operates on a 50% duty cycle
which would require 240W/hour.

I use 50% efficiency of solar cells for estimating, thus (80W)50% =
40W.

240W/40W = 6 panels or about $3,000.

T-105 are rated about 235AH.

If you cycle them between 70%-90%, they provide about 47AH/pair at
12VDC.

240W/47AH = 5 sets of batteries minimum, I'd probably use 6 sets or 12
batteries,
thus (12)$65)=$780

Panels....................$3000
Batteries..................$800
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$500

Total......................$4800

Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.

Lew



A 7 KW Guardian generator runs around $2,000.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:50:09 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


I researched this problem when we were living with a generator..
Most places suggested a Honda 5000 and optional control panel.. a lot of bucks,
but a sweet unit..

Hi Mac,

Am I correct that the unit you mention is not automatic?
That is, it would not start on its own in the event of an
outage.

Thanks,

The generator doesn't, that's why they said to buy the optional control panel..

A neighbor here has one and the control panel is hard wired into his breaker
panel.. power goes off, the generator fires up..
He also plugs an automotive trickle charger into the generator to charge the
started battery whenever it's running..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote:


The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just don't
find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight that
reduces portability.

I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman generator has a
casting on it for an optional starter...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just
don't
find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight
that reduces portability.

I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...

But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just don't
find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight that
reduces portability.

I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman generator
has a
casting on it for an optional starter...




Keep in mind that engine casting is built for may different applications,
some require electric start.
Greg

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...



Panels....................$3000
Batteries..................$800
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$500

Total......................$4800

Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.


For that money, just to power a sump pump, I'd certainly go the route of a
Guardian standby generator. You can buy one heck of a whole house generator
for that kind of money. Keep a couple extra propane tanks around and switch
tanks over every 50 hours of runtime. Enjoy life as usual. I feed my whole
house on a simple 8,000 W gas generator, but it's not an automatic setup.
The Guardians are really nice units. I've installed several of them and one
of these days I'll put one in myself.

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:09:38 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...



Panels....................$3000
Batteries..................$800
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$500

Total......................$4800

Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.


For that money, just to power a sump pump, I'd certainly go the route of a
Guardian standby generator. You can buy one heck of a whole house generator
for that kind of money. Keep a couple extra propane tanks around and switch
tanks over every 50 hours of runtime. Enjoy life as usual. I feed my whole
house on a simple 8,000 W gas generator, but it's not an automatic setup.
The Guardians are really nice units. I've installed several of them and one
of these days I'll put one in myself.

Hi Mike,

I appreciate your comments about the Guardian stuff, and
would welcome any further information you could offer based
upon your experience with the units.

For example, what might you know about ease of installation,
trustworthiness of the unattended starting, durability, etc.

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...


Hi Mike,

I appreciate your comments about the Guardian stuff, and
would welcome any further information you could offer based
upon your experience with the units.

For example, what might you know about ease of installation,
trustworthiness of the unattended starting, durability, etc.


The Guardian generators are probably the best buy for the money in the price
bracket. You can buy them direct or you can find them at any Home Depot as
well as a lot of independent stores. Very reliable. Fully self contained,
and housed in a good cabinet that will withstand years (and years, and
years...) of weather. I'm not sure if they have fully switched over by now,
but many of the units (last year it was based on size - over 10K) used Honda
motors, and you just can't beat a Honda motor for that application. They
start reliably and that's what you want.

The generator hooks to propane or natural gas - depending on what you have
at the house. If you're on natural gas, you quite likely could require the
gas company to put in a larger meter since many older ones don't feed enough
for a generator. This is not a big issue though. It hooks up with a
transfer switch (provided in the price), that will either be a sub-set of
your existing breakers, or with a whole house disconnect (optional). The
transfer switch/disconnect panel ties into your main panel and becomes the
breakers for the circuits you select to keep energized during a power
failure. As such - it mounts near (typically within 2 feet) of your main
panel.

The generator will self test itself weekly, based on a date/time you program
into it. It will fire up, run for 15-20 minutes, and then shut down. When
a power failure occurs, it will sense the absence of outside power, then it
will wait for about 30-45 seconds to see whether power is really gone away,
or if this is just a joke played by the power company. Finally, it will
shrug its shoulders and fire itself up, switching off the grid, and
providing power directly to those circuits you've put on the disconnect. It
will run merrily until power comes back on - which is it always watching
for. Once it sees power back on the grid, it keeps an eye on it for another
30-45 seconds, to make sure that power is stable. Once it decides that the
power is for real, it shuts itself off and switches back over to the grid.
Then, it simply sits and waits for the next power failure.

For long term expected failures, you would probably want a 100 gallon
propane tank (assuming you're not hook to natural gas) for the generator. I
just can't recall the exact consumption rate right now, but if you look on
the web for Guardian, you could easily find it. The thing is you want a
nice big tank that will take you through the self tests all year, and still
be able to run the generator for some time, before requiring refill.

We use them a lot in the northeast owing to winter power outages up here.
They are as reliable and as trustworthy as it gets. No - I don't sell them,
I just have some experience installing them. I've probably installed 10
since last winter, and I've had the great (dis)pleasure of installing them
in just about every environment you can imagine. For the amount of effort
you will go through to cob up some alternate design and hope to gain a
predictable result, you'll probably spend at least as much money, and
certainly way more time, than if you just bought one of these.

As for installation - they are not difficult to install. There is no need
to pay the install prices that places like Home Depot charge if you are in
any way capable with electrical work, or know someone who is. The hardest
part of doing it yourself is getting the generator off of your truck or
trailer and leveled on the ground. The simplest install method for this is
to throw a half dozen bags of stone down, rake it level, grunt the generator
in place on it, and smile. The included documentation from Guardian is
plenty sufficient for any competent DIY electrical skills. Typical install
time for one (after you've done one...) is about 3 hours. Double that for
your first install. If you can do it yourself, you'll save approximately
$1000 if you buy one from Home Depot, by not buying their install package.

That should answer some of your questions - but may generate more. As away
if you have others.

--

-Mike-

Kenneth wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:09:38 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...



Panels....................$3000
Batteries..................$800
Inverter....................$500
Misc hardware.........$500

Total......................$4800

Use $5000 as an estimate to achieve total independance from an
unreliable supplier.


For that money, just to power a sump pump, I'd certainly go the
route of a Guardian standby generator. You can buy one heck of a
whole house generator for that kind of money. Keep a couple extra
propane tanks around and switch tanks over every 50 hours of
runtime. Enjoy life as usual. I feed my whole house on a simple
8,000 W gas generator, but it's not an automatic setup. The
Guardians are really nice units. I've installed several of them
and
one of these days I'll put one in myself.

Hi Mike,

I appreciate your comments about the Guardian stuff, and
would welcome any further information you could offer based
upon your experience with the units.

For example, what might you know about ease of installation,
trustworthiness of the unattended starting, durability, etc.

My neighbor has had one for about ten years now--every month it kicks
off its test cycle, never failed to start during an outage, never had
a problem with it. A friend of mine had one installed last year, had
an initial problem with a gas leak that IIRC was traced to a
manufacturing defect and fixed under warranty, but other than that
it's been dead reliable as well.

Installation requires that you (or whoever is doing the installation)
know wiring and gasfitting and it needs a place to sit, outdoors,
which is usually a concrete slab on the ground. It has its own load
panel that the circuits to be protected are wired into, the other end
goes to the meter or to a large breaker on the main panel, the load
panel contains the transfer switch. You really should have a licensed
electrician wire the panel--it's there to protect power company
employees from getting zapped by power fed back into the line, and if
you install it yourself and screw it up you're at risk for huge
liability. It's not that easy to screw up, but given some of the home
wiring jobs I've seen . . .

This isn't a lightweight unit--it's a big box that weighs over 300
pounds for the smallest one and doesn't disassemble to any significant
extent--you really should have the bed for it prepared before it
arrives so that you only have to move it once.

If there's a Home Depot near you they'll sell you the unit and deliver
and install it for you--they'll likely have at least one on display as
well so you can get an idea of what it looks like. Their prices
aren't bad either.

It needs regular maintenance--that means change the oil and the air
filter and whatnot like anything else powered by an engine--that's
typically once a year or after a prolonged outage. Whoever sells it
to you should offer you a contract where they do that for you and do
an annual inspection.

If you've got either natural gas piped in or a big LP tank for your
stove and/or heat then they'll plumb right in--on natural gas it runs
as long as the gas company keeps providing gas, on LP it runs until
the cylinder is empty--that's a good long time on a stationary tank
that gets filled from a truck--if it will run 50 hours on a portable
tank then it should run a month on one of those.


Sincere thanks,

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:48 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote:

mac davis wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can start
automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just
don't
find electric start on very small generators--in the low capacities
they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight
that reduces portability.

I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...

But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?

--
We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the generator was
figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and battery holder..
Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the "remote
start".. ;-]


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

mac davis wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:55:15 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


The killers are the need for electric start so the thing can
start
automatically and for a UL approved transfer switch. You just
don't
find electric start on very small generators--in the low
capacities
they're made to be portable and adding electric start adds weight
that reduces portability.

I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...

But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?

--
We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the
generator was figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and
battery holder..
Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the
"remote start".. ;-]

Which works if you don't need _automatic_ start.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...


Hi Mike,

I appreciate your comments about the Guardian stuff, and
would welcome any further information you could offer based
upon your experience with the units.

For example, what might you know about ease of installation,
trustworthiness of the unattended starting, durability, etc.


The Guardian generators are probably the best buy for the money in the
price bracket. You can buy them direct or you can find them at any Home
Depot as well as a lot of independent stores. Very reliable. Fully self
contained, and housed in a good cabinet that will withstand years (and
years, and years...) of weather. I'm not sure if they have fully switched
over by now, but many of the units (last year it was based on size - over
10K) used Honda motors, and you just can't beat a Honda motor for that
application. They start reliably and that's what you want.

The generator hooks to propane or natural gas - depending on what you have
at the house. If you're on natural gas, you quite likely could require
the gas company to put in a larger meter since many older ones don't feed
enough for a generator. This is not a big issue though. It hooks up with
a transfer switch (provided in the price), that will either be a sub-set
of your existing breakers, or with a whole house disconnect (optional).
The transfer switch/disconnect panel ties into your main panel and becomes
the breakers for the circuits you select to keep energized during a power
failure. As such - it mounts near (typically within 2 feet) of your main
panel.

The generator will self test itself weekly, based on a date/time you
program into it. It will fire up, run for 15-20 minutes, and then shut
down. When a power failure occurs, it will sense the absence of outside
power, then it will wait for about 30-45 seconds to see whether power is
really gone away, or if this is just a joke played by the power company.
Finally, it will shrug its shoulders and fire itself up, switching off the
grid, and providing power directly to those circuits you've put on the
disconnect. It will run merrily until power comes back on - which is it
always watching for. Once it sees power back on the grid, it keeps an eye
on it for another 30-45 seconds, to make sure that power is stable. Once
it decides that the power is for real, it shuts itself off and switches
back over to the grid. Then, it simply sits and waits for the next power
failure.

For long term expected failures, you would probably want a 100 gallon
propane tank (assuming you're not hook to natural gas) for the generator.
I just can't recall the exact consumption rate right now, but if you look
on the web for Guardian, you could easily find it. The thing is you want
a nice big tank that will take you through the self tests all year, and
still be able to run the generator for some time, before requiring refill.

We use them a lot in the northeast owing to winter power outages up here.
They are as reliable and as trustworthy as it gets. No - I don't sell
them, I just have some experience installing them. I've probably
installed 10 since last winter, and I've had the great (dis)pleasure of
installing them in just about every environment you can imagine. For the
amount of effort you will go through to cob up some alternate design and
hope to gain a predictable result, you'll probably spend at least as much
money, and certainly way more time, than if you just bought one of these.

As for installation - they are not difficult to install. There is no need
to pay the install prices that places like Home Depot charge if you are in
any way capable with electrical work, or know someone who is. The hardest
part of doing it yourself is getting the generator off of your truck or
trailer and leveled on the ground. The simplest install method for this
is to throw a half dozen bags of stone down, rake it level, grunt the
generator in place on it, and smile. The included documentation from
Guardian is plenty sufficient for any competent DIY electrical skills.
Typical install time for one (after you've done one...) is about 3 hours.
Double that for your first install. If you can do it yourself, you'll
save approximately $1000 if you buy one from Home Depot, by not buying
their install package.

That should answer some of your questions - but may generate more. As
away if you have others.

--

-Mike-



You better recheck your information, As far AS I know Generac has never used
Honda engines, as lest I have never seen one with a Honda. I work for the
only full service Generac dealer in the state of North Dakota. You need
warranty service an a Generac in North Dakota, you call us!

Generac has been building their own engines for years At one time they were
in bed with Briggs & Stratton and many of there air cooled unit were B&S
powered.

The rest of your info is spot on. Generac builds a very dependable unit,
much better than units they built ~5 years ago. I can't even count how many
I have personally installed over the years, everything from 10KW to 85KW.
The instructions that come with the Generac pre-packaged units is very clear
and easy to understand. Anyone with some mechanical ability should be able
to do the install themselves. We get an occasional problem, but nothing
consistent. On the self installs I get called out sometimes, and it is
usually a installation problem by someone that has no business doing it
themselves!
Greg

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:



I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...

But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?

--
We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the generator
was
figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and battery holder..
Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the "remote
start".. ;-]



Close, but not that easy! You would need a starter solenoid also. Then you
will need something to activate the manual choke, a couple more wires and a
small 12 volt solenoid. Plus a remote shut down of some sort, probably more
wires and a relay to short or break the ignition power. Before you know it
you will have a couple hundred dollars into a cobbled up control system.
Greg

"Greg O" wrote in message
...


You better recheck your information, As far AS I know Generac has never
used Honda engines, as lest I have never seen one with a Honda. I work for
the only full service Generac dealer in the state of North Dakota. You
need warranty service an a Generac in North Dakota, you call us!

Sure they did. I installed several of them last winter and this spring.
Not all models, so it might have been some kind of a contract that was based
on availability rather than KW rating, but without a doubt, some of them had
Honda engines in them. I wonder if that was something that happened
because of a supply/demand issue for a while. If my memory serves me
correctly (and it often does not...) I think at least one 10KW (I remember
this particular install too well) was a Honda.


The rest of your info is spot on. Generac builds a very dependable unit,
much better than units they built ~5 years ago. I can't even count how
many I have personally installed over the years, everything from 10KW to
85KW. The instructions that come with the Generac pre-packaged units is
very clear and easy to understand. Anyone with some mechanical ability
should be able to do the install themselves. We get an occasional problem,
but nothing consistent. On the self installs I get called out sometimes,
and it is usually a installation problem by someone that has no business
doing it themselves!
Greg

Likewise. The biggest problem I found when called to help people who had
tried it themselves was when they panic'd at the tie-ins in the main panel.
Typically, these people knew absolutely nothing about wiring and really
should not have tried that part on their own anyway - as you experienced.
The second most common cry for help came from people who wanted the
disconnect located further away from their main panel and were intimidated
by constructing their own conduit from the main to the disconnect.

--

-Mike-

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...


If there's a Home Depot near you they'll sell you the unit and deliver
and install it for you--they'll likely have at least one on display as
well so you can get an idea of what it looks like. Their prices
aren't bad either.


Home Depot's prices are pretty good on them, though locals can beat HD's
price if they want to. HD charges around $1000 for the install and you can
certainly beat that, even with a licensed electrician and certified gas guy.


--

-Mike-

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:58:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


That should answer some of your questions - but may generate more. As away
if you have others.

Hi Mike,

I am most appreciative of the information you provided...

Based on what you have offered and other information I have,
I suspect that we will move in the guardian direction
shortly.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:53:15 -0800, mac davis
wrote:

We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the generator was
figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and battery holder..
Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the "remote
start".. ;-]


mac

Hi Mac,

That is useful information, but as you would agree, the
capacity for a "remote start" is not the same as the
capacity for an "automatic start" (that is, a generator that
would start on its own in the event of an outage.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:21:39 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
[... snip stuff about Genrac ...]

I've read elsewhere (alt.home.repair, IIRC) that there are two lines
from Genrac. One with high speed shaft (3600rpm?) and one with low speed
(1800rpm?). Apparently the high speed units are very noisy compared to
the low speed units. As in "weak the dead" noisy. And it is this version
that is offered by the borgs.

Can you corroborate or refute that information?

TIA.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

"Art Greenberg" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:21:39 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
[... snip stuff about Genrac ...]

I've read elsewhere (alt.home.repair, IIRC) that there are two lines
from Genrac. One with high speed shaft (3600rpm?) and one with low speed
(1800rpm?). Apparently the high speed units are very noisy compared to
the low speed units. As in "weak the dead" noisy. And it is this version
that is offered by the borgs.

Can you corroborate or refute that information?

TIA.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net


Not really true. The RPM depends on the model. All the smaller air cooled
units run at 3600 RPM, ALL OF THEM. Some of the liquid cooled units run at
3600 or 1800, some even run at 2300 RPM with a gear reduction between the
engine and generator head. The reason for the difference in RPM is they will
take a ~50 HP engine and run it at 1800 RPM to produce 20KW. Then turn
around and use the same engine running at 3600 RPM to produce 25KW. That
engine will not produce enough HP to run a 25KW unit at 1800 RPM.
Some sizes do come in 1800 or 3600 RPM. It is not just a Home Depot deal. As
A dealer we can order certain sized generators in either RPM, but the lower
RPM units are from from the same "model". Generac builds "sound attenuated"
units for customers that want quieter units, and are willing to speed more
$$. Not a different line, just different models offered in the same line.
Sort of like buying a Chevy Impala, or a Cadillac, or maybe a Corvette.
Different models for different purposes, and prices.
As for the noise, the 3600 RPM air cooled units are surprisingly quiet. If
you sit the generator right next to the home you will hear it run, but turn
on a TV, or a radio and you probably will not even notice it. And if you do
notice the engine running, the noise gives you a warm fuzzy feeling knowing
you are staying warm and secure, while your neighbors are panicking and
getting ready to storm your house and take it over! ;-)
Take some time and shop all you like.
http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Pr...sidential.aspx
Greg

Greg O wrote:
"Art Greenberg" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:21:39 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
[... snip stuff about Genrac ...]

I've read elsewhere (alt.home.repair, IIRC) that there are two
lines
from Genrac. One with high speed shaft (3600rpm?) and one with low
speed (1800rpm?). Apparently the high speed units are very noisy
compared to the low speed units. As in "weak the dead" noisy. And
it
is this version that is offered by the borgs.

Can you corroborate or refute that information?

TIA.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net


Not really true. The RPM depends on the model. All the smaller air
cooled units run at 3600 RPM, ALL OF THEM. Some of the liquid cooled
units run at 3600 or 1800, some even run at 2300 RPM with a gear
reduction between the engine and generator head. The reason for the
difference in RPM is they will take a ~50 HP engine and run it at
1800 RPM to produce 20KW. Then turn around and use the same engine
running at 3600 RPM to produce 25KW. That engine will not produce
enough HP to run a 25KW unit at 1800 RPM.
Some sizes do come in 1800 or 3600 RPM. It is not just a Home Depot
deal. As A dealer we can order certain sized generators in either
RPM, but the lower RPM units are from from the same "model". Generac
builds "sound attenuated" units for customers that want quieter
units, and are willing to speed more $$. Not a different line, just
different models offered in the same line. Sort of like buying a
Chevy Impala, or a Cadillac, or maybe a Corvette. Different models
for different purposes, and prices.
As for the noise, the 3600 RPM air cooled units are surprisingly
quiet. If you sit the generator right next to the home you will hear
it run, but turn on a TV, or a radio and you probably will not even
notice it. And if you do notice the engine running, the noise gives
you a warm fuzzy feeling knowing you are staying warm and secure,
while your neighbors are panicking and getting ready to storm your
house and take it over! ;-)
Take some time and shop all you like.
http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Pr...sidential.aspx
Greg

When the neighbor's is running and I'm outside I can hear it, but not
when I'm inside unless I'm in that end of the house and listening for
it.

Was looking at one at Home Despot today--1 liter 2 cylinder
engine--bigger engine than my motorcycle has and makes a fraction of
the power--very, very conservative design IMO. And the smallest model
is on clearance for under $2000 if you can find one in stock anywhere.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Art Greenberg" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:21:39 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
[... snip stuff about Genrac ...]

I've read elsewhere (alt.home.repair, IIRC) that there are two lines
from Genrac. One with high speed shaft (3600rpm?) and one with low speed
(1800rpm?). Apparently the high speed units are very noisy compared to
the low speed units. As in "weak the dead" noisy. And it is this version
that is offered by the borgs.

Can you corroborate or refute that information?


What you read is pure bunk. It's the stuff that is typical of
trash-the-BORG stuff. They are the same generators. Home Depot does not
spec products from manufacturers. They simply sell what the manufacturer
builds.

--

-Mike-

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...


Hi Mike,

I am most appreciative of the information you provided...

Based on what you have offered and other information I have,
I suspect that we will move in the guardian direction
shortly.


You won't be regretting that decision. Feel free to ask away with any
questions and now that we've discovered Greg O. in this thread, you should
look to him for some solid input. While I have some experience with these
things, Greg is clearly the more attuned one. He works with them every day
and he's also proven that he knows what he's talking about. Now - when it
comes time to paint that mother...

--

-Mike-

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...


Was looking at one at Home Despot today--1 liter 2 cylinder
engine--bigger engine than my motorcycle has and makes a fraction of
the power--very, very conservative design IMO. And the smallest model
is on clearance for under $2000 if you can find one in stock anywhere.


You don't need to find in stock. Just ask them to order it in for you - at
the clearance (is it really a reduced or a clearance) price. They will.

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:03:10 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote:



I found it kind of interesting that our cheap ($500) 5.5 Coleman
generator has a casting on it for an optional starter...

But what does it end up costing once you've gotten the starter?

--
We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the
generator was figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and
battery holder..
Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the
"remote start".. ;-]

Which works if you don't need _automatic_ start.

nope, it doesn't... I was just answering your question..
Of course, it may very well work with a control panel like the Honda option..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:27:55 -0600, "Greg O" wrote:

Close, but not that easy! You would need a starter solenoid also. Then you
will need something to activate the manual choke, a couple more wires and a
small 12 volt solenoid. Plus a remote shut down of some sort, probably more
wires and a relay to short or break the ignition power. Before you know it
you will have a couple hundred dollars into a cobbled up control system.
Greg

good point... we didn't pursue it, as we have more faith in the Mexican power
company than he does...
His price did include the starter solenoid and kill switch, but I never thought
about the choke..

They are impressive...
During the Baja 1000 a few weeks ago, a chopper flew into the power lines
between Ensenada and San Felipe, killing the crew and blacking out a large chunk
of Baja California..
We got power back within 6 hours, at about 11pm..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:37:06 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:53:15 -0800, mac davis
wrote:

We didn't do it, but the friend that went to the states for the generator was
figuring about $100 for the starter, battery and battery holder..
Another $10 for 50' of speaker wire and a door bell button for the "remote
start".. ;-]


mac

Hi Mac,

That is useful information, but as you would agree, the
capacity for a "remote start" is not the same as the
capacity for an "automatic start" (that is, a generator that
would start on its own in the event of an outage.)

All the best,

For sure.. I was just answering someone's question about my cheapie generator
having a starter housing on it..

As a matter of fact, I'm glad that we kept the generator mobile, as a friend is
borrowing right now until THEY get electricity..lol
We were pretty lucky.. we got power within 3 months of moving into the house..
some folks have been waiting for a year or more..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing