In article .com, "bf" wrote:

But you're right, if done with care and common sense, wiring really
isn't dangerous.

I have to disagree with you on several counts.

First, "common sense" unfortunately is not nearly as common as it should be.

Second, and more important, 120V and 240V alternating-current *is* dangerous,
at least potentially so: if mishandled, it can start fires, or electrocute. To
handle it "with care" requires a knowledge of the potential dangers, in order
to anticipate and avoid them. Far too many people decide to work on their own
wiring, lacking that knowledge -- and further lacking the awareness that their
knowledge is incomplete. Thinking they know what they're doing, they create
dangerous conditions unknowingly.

Third, some dangers cannot be anticipated solely "with care and common sense".
Some examples:
- Why is it important that the equipment grounding conductor for a circuit be
run in the same cable or raceway as the circuit conductors?
- Why must ground and neutral be bonded at the service entrance and nowhere
else?
- Why is it OK to install a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit, but not a 30A
receptacle on a 20A circuit?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On 14 Dec 2006 08:16:55 -0800, "bf" wrote:

But you're right, if done with care and common sense, wiring really
isn't dangerous.

Until you plug it in....

then it deserves respect it is owed.
(120v does not hurt as much as the scrapes when you yank your hand out
of the chassis)

Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618

Doug Miller wrote:

- Why is it important that the equipment grounding conductor for a circuit be
run in the same cable or raceway as the circuit conductors?

You've got me on this one. If I have two PVC conduits going from the
panel and put the hots in one and the ground in the other, and the
equpment is grounded properly, I'm at a loss as to what could happen.

- Why is it OK to install a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit, but not a 30A
receptacle on a 20A circuit?

According to this

http://www.passandseymour.com/knowho...rical%20Basics

it's *not* okay to install a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.

Chris

Whohoo! I finally post to the wreck. My apologies in advance for the
googlegroups thing, the usenet server that I use doesnt allow posting,
and I'm too broke to afford a nice subscription to a decent server.

Anyways, My parents had a house built in 1997 (when I was 16 years
old). There have been two "near fire" incidents since it was built, on
120v circuits.

The first involved a pathetic "power strip" unit on the end of a
bar-style counter in the kitchen. The electrician installed this
pathetic plastic rail that was 14" long, and only containted two
outlets.One outlet would make intermittent contact, the other was fine.
One day in 1998, the unit started smoking a bit, the tripped the
breaker. I am quite a handyman, and amateur electronics technician, and
have had moderate experience with practical wiring, so I opened the
unit up to take a look at it. The bare ground wire had a nice crimped
plastic-insulated connector on it (in a matching beige color) and was
in fine shape. I don't know what the electrician did with the other two
plastic crimp-connectors (that I assume came with the unit) but he had
used wire nuts to connect the hot and neutral pigtails to their
respective wires (The outlet had pigtails, rather than screws or
backstabs). The wire nuts were a hair too large to fit into the plastic
rail, so he had taken a knife and trimmed the sides of the wirenuts
down. Over time, twisting plugs around inside the intermittent outlet
had caused the exposed metal edges of the wirenuts to brush against
each other, creating an arc between the hot and neutral lines. This
make some good smoke and melted the plastic rail housing a little bit.
(That same electrician installed lights in my father's woodshop with a
constant hot, a switched ground used as a neutral, and an un-connected
neutral, which we noticed and fixed before there was any noticable
problem.)

I replaced that mess with a plain old computer-style power-strip, with
the plug snipped off, and attached with good wirenuts and secured with
a big wad of electrical tape. It has been much more useful and
reliable, for the past 8 years.

The other incident was in the attic, which my parents decided to have
finished in 1999, into an "apartment style" space (with a bedroom,
kitchen, bathroom, and livingroom). I did the entirety of the
electrical wiring and electrical finish work, with the help of a BORG
how-to electrical code book, and some internet state-specific
electrical code research. It was inspected by a county electrical
inspector, and passed.

A little over a year ago, (after I had gotten married and moved out) my
parents and little brother were watching a movie in the attic
family-room. My mother plugged a circulating-oil-heater into an outlet,
and a different outlet, behind a couch, started smoking. After
dissecting the situation, we found a good third of the blue plastic
outlet box had melted, and half of the outlet itself had disintegrated.
I had chained the outlets from that breaker together, and that outlet
had been the weak link in the chain. It had one cable running in from
the previous outlet, and another running on to the next outlet. I had
bent a hook in the ends of the wires and stacked the two hooks onto
each of the screws (I dont trust the backstab system). That was
acceptable according to the inspector. The small contact area between
the two neutral wires had not been a problem until that higher-current
heater was plugged in, at which point it had exceeded the
current-carrying capacity of a contact point with such small
dimensions. It proceeded to overheat, melt, arc and destroy stuff.
20/20 hindsight has helped me realize that it's a very good idea to
throw a wire-nut onto situations where there is more than one wire, and
run a single-wire pigtail out to the screw contact.

The damage was done to the side of the outlet box AWAY from the 2x4
stud, thankfully, partially due to my father's instruction to install
the outlets "upside down" so they didn't look like a smiley-face and
tempt small children. Had it happened on the hot lead, or had the
outlet been installed the other direction, we would most likely have
had a fire (according to several expert and experienced opinions).

So yes, it's quite possible for even minor wiring problems to cause
fires.

Spott

Toller wrote:
As you all know, a troll hijacked one of my posts and kept insisting that
omitting a neutral on a pure 240v circuit would cause a fire, which would
invalidate the insurance.
But that brought up the question in my mind, can improper wiring actually
cause a fire?

Presumably any fool is capable of using the right gauge cable and breaker
for the current, terminating all cables in junction boxes, using a suitable
cover on the boxes, and securing the cable so it won't rip out of the box.
Given that, could doing anything improper actually result in a fire? Seems
to me that errors will result in the circuit not working, or a problem occur
in the (presumably) fire resistant boxes.
Given those basics being done right; what errors would result in fires?

(I suppose one example might come from my cottage. It has cable entering
the back of a kitchen cabinet and then going up to, and across the top. A
mouse chewed through the wire to get into the cabinet and short circuited
it, inches away from a pile of paper napkins. Seeing what happened to the
mouse, I have to think I was lucky it didn't catch the napkins on fire.
Obviously the cable shouldn't have been in the cabinet.)

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:HW2gh.4458$LL4.1957@trnddc04...

OK, let's get off this "You're Right, He's Wrong" track for a moment.


That's ok, but only up to the point where mis-information is being given.

Let's say you call your County Electrical Code Inspector and tell him you
want to run a 240VAC Circuit from your Main Breaker Box (say sixty-feet?)
out to your Garage/Shop. what size conductors you should pull for a
(40AMP?)
load and see what he recommends.

My point being that, given that information, e.g. MAX 40AMP load @ 220VAC
he's likely to suggest you pull the three conductors and the mechanical
ground.

Your point is incorrect. You might want to try exactly what you propose and
see what your county inspector suggests.


I agree he will, if pressed, allow that - if the circuit is dedicated to a
water heater, for instance, that you only need pull the two conductors and
the mechanical ground.

I think you are assuming too much with this position.


And, of course, the same would apply were you to specify the circuit would
be dedicated to a specific electrical motor.


Ok, so now we are back to the beginning of this thread. It seems you have
arrived at the same conclusion that your adversaries were at when this
started.

--

-Mike-

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:hsegh.5631$yZ4.4045@trnddc05...
"The standard U.S. household wiring design has two 120 volt "hot" wires
and
a neutral which is at ground potential. The two 120 volt wires are
obtained
by grounding the centertap of the transformer supplying the house so that
when one hot wire is swinging positive with respect to ground, the other
is
swinging negative. This versatile design allows the use of either hot wire
to supply the standard 120 volt household circuits. For higher power
applications like clothes dryers, electric ranges, air conditioners, etc.
,
both hot wires can be used to produce a 240 volt circuit."

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ic/hsehld.html

Hah!


Hah?????

--

-Mike-

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article .com, "bf"
wrote:

But you're right, if done with care and common sense, wiring really
isn't dangerous.

I have to disagree with you on several counts.

First, "common sense" unfortunately is not nearly as common as it should
be.

Second, and more important, 120V and 240V alternating-current *is*
dangerous,
at least potentially so: if mishandled, it can start fires, or
electrocute. To
handle it "with care" requires a knowledge of the potential dangers, in
order
to anticipate and avoid them. Far too many people decide to work on their
own
wiring, lacking that knowledge -- and further lacking the awareness that
their
knowledge is incomplete. Thinking they know what they're doing, they
create
dangerous conditions unknowingly.

Hey Doug - I think that what he meant by "common sense" was the common sense
to follow such things as electrical code, and not get all wrapped up in
"would-be-nice-if" scenarios. Keep it simple, apply the code, and use
common sense with code as your guide line.

--

-Mike-

In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

- Why is it important that the equipment grounding conductor for a circuit be
run in the same cable or raceway as the circuit conductors?

You've got me on this one. If I have two PVC conduits going from the
panel and put the hots in one and the ground in the other, and the
equpment is grounded properly, I'm at a loss as to what could happen.

Google up a thread in alt.home.repair titled "Use two 12/2s for 240v?" -- the
topic was discussed starting about 18 posts deep in the thread.

- Why is it OK to install a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit, but not a 30A
receptacle on a 20A circuit?

According to this

http://www.passandseymour.com/knowho...egory=Electric
al%20Basics

It's *not* okay to install a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.

My mistake -- sloppy typing and proofreading; I reversed the amperage numbers
in both halves. Thanks for the catch. Question should have read:

Why is it OK to install a 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit, but not a 20A
receptacle on a 30A circuit?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:

- Why is it important that the equipment grounding conductor for a
circuit be
run in the same cable or raceway as the circuit conductors?

You've got me on this one. If I have two PVC conduits going from the
panel and put the hots in one and the ground in the other, and the
equpment is grounded properly, I'm at a loss as to what could happen.

- Why is it OK to install a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit, but not a
30A
receptacle on a 20A circuit?

According to this


http://www.passandseymour.com/knowho...rical%20Basics

it's *not* okay to install a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.


It generally pays to refer to NEC rather than something less authoritative,
such as a vendor site.

--

-Mike-

In article , "Mike Marlow" wrote:

Hey Doug - I think that what he meant by "common sense" was the common sense
to follow such things as electrical code, and not get all wrapped up in
"would-be-nice-if" scenarios. Keep it simple, apply the code, and use
common sense with code as your guide line.

Well, perhaps so -- but do you spend much time at alt.home.repair? Seems that
a lot of people are unaware that there even *is* an electrical code. And some
of the posts in this thread should be more than ample to show that even some
folks who know that the Code exists, don't know nearly as much about what it
says than they think they do.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Hey Doug - I think that what he meant by "common sense" was the common
sense
to follow such things as electrical code, and not get all wrapped up in
"would-be-nice-if" scenarios. Keep it simple, apply the code, and use
common sense with code as your guide line.

Well, perhaps so -- but do you spend much time at alt.home.repair?

Nope. I have to confess total ignorance of that group.

Seems that
a lot of people are unaware that there even *is* an electrical code. And
some
of the posts in this thread should be more than ample to show that even
some
folks who know that the Code exists, don't know nearly as much about what
it
says than they think they do.


Unfortunately it seems that there are a lot of folks who know a code exists,
and then throw out the phrase "Code" as if to support their position, with
no real knowledge of what the code even says. I'm the first to admit that I
don't have every page of the NEC memorized and I ask from time to time, in
order to cover areas that I might not deal with on a regular basis, but I
have certainly seen enough of the aforementioned references to code by those
who clearly know nothing about what it says. Now *that* is dangerous.

--

-Mike-

In article , "Mike Marlow" wrote:

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...

According to this

http://www.passandseymour.com/knowho...egory=Electric
al%20Basics

it's *not* okay to install a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.

It generally pays to refer to NEC rather than something less authoritative,
such as a vendor site.

Both he, and Pass & Seymour, are right. I stated it backwards.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On 14 Dec 2006 10:56:08 -0800, wrote:

and attached with good wirenuts

ROFLMAO

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.


--

On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:25:44 GMT, "Pop`"
wrote:

Tim Douglass wrote:
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:50:26 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

As you all know, a troll hijacked one of my posts and kept insisting
that omitting a neutral on a pure 240v circuit would cause a fire,
which would invalidate the insurance.
But that brought up the question in my mind, can improper wiring
actually cause a fire?

Yes.

See here for one example:

http://www.douglassclan.com/ManufacturedHomeDanger.html

Ouch! I stopped to read that page, thinking it might have something
interesting or that I hadn't come across, and indeed, it did. The amount of
misinformation there is large, especially with the assumed theories that
were stated.
I don't doubt your initial experience as I've seen it myself, but ... I
think you exaggerated greatly and unfortunately made a lot of wrong guesses
about what what and why.
If you'd like some assistance in updating that page so it's accurate and
usable as an FYI, I'm sure there are people here who would assist you in
that endeavor, myself included. As it stands, it's a badly expressed
example of a bad situation but your understanding of electricity is
obviously lacking and in need of improvement.

Please elucidate. I am actually quite experienced with electricity and
understand home wiring very well, but I was attempting to explain the
issue in a "dumbed-down" way so that it would be clear to anyone
reading it. I haven't looked at that page since I put it up a couple
years ago, but it passed muster with a couple of electrical
contractors who are friends of mine.

If you have corrections I would really like to hear about them. Either
post them here or e-mail me.

Thanks.
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:33:08 +0000, Mike wrote:

On 14 Dec 2006 10:56:08 -0800, wrote:

and attached with good wirenuts

ROFLMAO

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.

Actaully, that "bodge" is required by the electrical code in US wiring,
that or an equivalent. Do you know of any cases in which wire nuts caused
fires? What do _you_ use?


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

hello,

you can start by using 240V like all decent people (read, in the rest of the
world (Japan except)) and significantly reduce your risk (with or without a
neutral or ground).
the main reason is ohm's law (U=RI) coupled with resistance law J=RI² and
power law W=UI
ie: if you divide the Voltage on a circuit by 2, you will need to increase
your intensity by 2 and therefore, the energy wated in the conductors (read
heat) (of fixed resistance) will multiply by 4.
so, for the same 'product' with the same output power, your cables will heat
4 times more in 120V than in 240...
so, 240 is much safter than 120V (at least when it comes to burning down
your house)...

cyrille

"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:25:44 GMT, "Pop`"
wrote:

Tim Douglass wrote:
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:50:26 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

As you all know, a troll hijacked one of my posts and kept insisting
that omitting a neutral on a pure 240v circuit would cause a fire,
which would invalidate the insurance.
But that brought up the question in my mind, can improper wiring
actually cause a fire?

Yes.

See here for one example:

http://www.douglassclan.com/ManufacturedHomeDanger.html

Ouch! I stopped to read that page, thinking it might have something
interesting or that I hadn't come across, and indeed, it did. The amount
of
misinformation there is large, especially with the assumed theories that
were stated.
I don't doubt your initial experience as I've seen it myself, but ... I
think you exaggerated greatly and unfortunately made a lot of wrong
guesses
about what what and why.
If you'd like some assistance in updating that page so it's accurate
and
usable as an FYI, I'm sure there are people here who would assist you in
that endeavor, myself included. As it stands, it's a badly expressed
example of a bad situation but your understanding of electricity is
obviously lacking and in need of improvement.

Please elucidate. I am actually quite experienced with electricity and
understand home wiring very well, but I was attempting to explain the
issue in a "dumbed-down" way so that it would be clear to anyone
reading it. I haven't looked at that page since I put it up a couple
years ago, but it passed muster with a couple of electrical
contractors who are friends of mine.

If you have corrections I would really like to hear about them. Either
post them here or e-mail me.

Thanks.
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh,
and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:41:01 GMT, "cyrille de Brebisson"
wrote:

hello,

you can start by using 240V like all decent people (read, in the rest of the
world (Japan except)) and significantly reduce your risk (with or without a
neutral or ground).
the main reason is ohm's law (U=RI) coupled with resistance law J=RI² and
power law W=UI
ie: if you divide the Voltage on a circuit by 2, you will need to increase
your intensity by 2 and therefore, the energy wated in the conductors (read
heat) (of fixed resistance) will multiply by 4.
so, for the same 'product' with the same output power, your cables will heat
4 times more in 120V than in 240...
so, 240 is much safter than 120V (at least when it comes to burning down
your house)...

cyrille

Nice thought - I'll have all the makers of electrical equipment in the
U.S. change immediately...
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"cyrille de Brebisson" wrote in message
...
hello,

you can start by using 240V like all decent people (read, in the rest of
the world (Japan except)) and significantly reduce your risk (with or
without a neutral or ground).
the main reason is ohm's law (U=RI) coupled with resistance law J=RI² and
power law W=UI
ie: if you divide the Voltage on a circuit by 2, you will need to increase
your intensity by 2 and therefore, the energy wated in the conductors
(read heat) (of fixed resistance) will multiply by 4.
so, for the same 'product' with the same output power, your cables will
heat 4 times more in 120V than in 240...
so, 240 is much safter than 120V (at least when it comes to burning down
your house)...

cyrille

How many houses burn down in the U.S. because of this supposed wiring
"problem"? Since I believe most electrical fires are related to equipment
malfunctions, faulty junctions and connections ......in fact I've never
heard (I don't get out muchg) of a house burning down from a over heated
wire that was properly executed and fuse protected. I'd expect lamps, cords
etc. to cause way more havoc than the "in the wall" wiring......fear
mongering has its place but can you back it up? Incidently does anyone know
why "we" chose 120 instead of 220 as the norm?................Rod

"Rod & Betty Jo" writes:

"cyrille de Brebisson" wrote in message
...
hello,

you can start by using 240V like all decent people (read, in the rest of
the world (Japan except)) and significantly reduce your risk (with or
without a neutral or ground).
the main reason is ohm's law (U=RI) coupled with resistance law J=RI² and
power law W=UI
ie: if you divide the Voltage on a circuit by 2, you will need to increase
your intensity by 2 and therefore, the energy wated in the conductors
(read heat) (of fixed resistance) will multiply by 4.
so, for the same 'product' with the same output power, your cables will
heat 4 times more in 120V than in 240...
so, 240 is much safter than 120V (at least when it comes to burning down
your house)...

cyrille

How many houses burn down in the U.S. because of this supposed wiring
"problem"? Since I believe most electrical fires are related to equipment
malfunctions, faulty junctions and connections ......in fact I've never
heard (I don't get out muchg) of a house burning down from a over heated
wire that was properly executed and fuse protected. I'd expect lamps, cords
etc. to cause way more havoc than the "in the wall" wiring......fear
mongering has its place but can you back it up? Incidently does anyone know
why "we" chose 120 instead of 220 as the norm?................Rod



When "we" chose 120, there was no norm.

scott

"Mike" wrote in message
...
On 14 Dec 2006 10:56:08 -0800, wrote:

and attached with good wirenuts

ROFLMAO

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.


And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?

--

-Mike-

In article , "cyrille de Brebisson" wrote:
hello,

you can start by using 240V like all decent people (read, in the rest of the
world (Japan except)) and significantly reduce your risk (with or without a
neutral or ground).
the main reason is ohm's law (U=RI) coupled with resistance law J=RI² and
power law W=UI
ie: if you divide the Voltage on a circuit by 2, you will need to increase
your intensity by 2 and therefore, the energy wated in the conductors (read
heat) (of fixed resistance) will multiply by 4.
so, for the same 'product' with the same output power, your cables will heat
4 times more in 120V than in 240...
so, 240 is much safter than 120V (at least when it comes to burning down
your house)...

That's clearly nonsense -- 240 is far more dangerous than 120, both in its
potential (pardon the pun) to electrocute, and to arc. The claim of reduced
heating in the conductors is likewise nonsense: in a properly sized circuit,
with proper overcurrent protection, heating in the conductors is insignificant
regardless of voltage (i.e. if the conductors are getting hot, it's because
they're too small for the load imposed).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Hello! Hello! Earth Calling Edison and Volta!!!! Come in ???
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "cyrille de Brebisson"
wrote:
hello,

you can start by using 240V like all decent people (read, in the rest of
the
world (Japan except)) and significantly reduce your risk (with or without
a
neutral or ground).
the main reason is ohm's law (U=RI) coupled with resistance law J=RI² and
power law W=UI
ie: if you divide the Voltage on a circuit by 2, you will need to increase
your intensity by 2 and therefore, the energy wated in the conductors
(read
heat) (of fixed resistance) will multiply by 4.
so, for the same 'product' with the same output power, your cables will
heat
4 times more in 120V than in 240...
so, 240 is much safter than 120V (at least when it comes to burning down
your house)...

That's clearly nonsense -- 240 is far more dangerous than 120, both in its
potential (pardon the pun) to electrocute, and to arc. The claim of
reduced
heating in the conductors is likewise nonsense: in a properly sized
circuit,
with proper overcurrent protection, heating in the conductors is
insignificant
regardless of voltage (i.e. if the conductors are getting hot, it's
because
they're too small for the load imposed).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:41:01 GMT, "cyrille de Brebisson"
wrote:

hello,

you can start by using 240V like all decent people (read, in the rest of the
world (Japan except)) and significantly reduce your risk (with or without a
neutral or ground).
the main reason is ohm's law (U=RI) coupled with resistance law J=RI² and
power law W=UI
ie: if you divide the Voltage on a circuit by 2, you will need to increase
your intensity by 2 and therefore, the energy wated in the conductors (read
heat) (of fixed resistance) will multiply by 4.
so, for the same 'product' with the same output power, your cables will heat
4 times more in 120V than in 240...
so, 240 is much safter than 120V (at least when it comes to burning down
your house)...

cyrille
From my time in Asia I know that most countries in the region are
220-240v with the exception of Taiwan. When I asked about it I was
told that 220-240 systems are cheaper to run.



"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:25:44 GMT, "Pop`"
wrote:

Tim Douglass wrote:
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:50:26 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

As you all know, a troll hijacked one of my posts and kept insisting
that omitting a neutral on a pure 240v circuit would cause a fire,
which would invalidate the insurance.
But that brought up the question in my mind, can improper wiring
actually cause a fire?

Yes.

See here for one example:

http://www.douglassclan.com/ManufacturedHomeDanger.html

Ouch! I stopped to read that page, thinking it might have something
interesting or that I hadn't come across, and indeed, it did. The amount
of
misinformation there is large, especially with the assumed theories that
were stated.
I don't doubt your initial experience as I've seen it myself, but ... I
think you exaggerated greatly and unfortunately made a lot of wrong
guesses
about what what and why.
If you'd like some assistance in updating that page so it's accurate
and
usable as an FYI, I'm sure there are people here who would assist you in
that endeavor, myself included. As it stands, it's a badly expressed
example of a bad situation but your understanding of electricity is
obviously lacking and in need of improvement.

Please elucidate. I am actually quite experienced with electricity and
understand home wiring very well, but I was attempting to explain the
issue in a "dumbed-down" way so that it would be clear to anyone
reading it. I haven't looked at that page since I put it up a couple
years ago, but it passed muster with a couple of electrical
contractors who are friends of mine.

If you have corrections I would really like to hear about them. Either
post them here or e-mail me.

Thanks.
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh,
and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Mike" wrote in message
.. .
On 14 Dec 2006 10:56:08 -0800, wrote:

and attached with good wirenuts

ROFLMAO

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.


And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?

Everything, I wouldn't even trust them on low voltage door bell wiring
let alone anything carrying mains voltage and current.

They are pure unadulterated crap.


--

On 15 Dec 2006 18:00:14 GMT, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:33:08 +0000, Mike wrote:

On 14 Dec 2006 10:56:08 -0800, wrote:

and attached with good wirenuts

ROFLMAO

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.

Actaully, that "bodge" is required by the electrical code in US wiring,
that or an equivalent.

So there is an equivalent to a wirenut is there? I'm having great
difficulty thinking of anything else that could "perform" a similar
"function" and be so badly engineered for the task in hand.

Do you know of any cases in which wire nuts caused
fires?

Google images "wire nut" and "wirenut" brings up quite a good
selection.

What do _you_ use?

Fortunately I reside in the true land of the free where higher
standards are used in electrical installations. Basically just about
everywhere other than the USA.


--

Mike wrote:
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"

And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?


Everything, I wouldn't even trust them on low voltage door bell wiring
let alone anything carrying mains voltage and current.

They are pure unadulterated crap.



The National Electrical Code 110.14 state:

"Splices shall be made with an approved splice cap or “wire nut”."

What do you use in place of wire nuts?

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Mike wrote:

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.

And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?

Everything, I wouldn't even trust them on low voltage door bell wiring
let alone anything carrying mains voltage and current.

They are pure unadulterated crap.


You want an argument, change the subject.

Lew

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:26:49 GMT, Nova wrote:

Mike wrote:
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"

And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?


Everything, I wouldn't even trust them on low voltage door bell wiring
let alone anything carrying mains voltage and current.

They are pure unadulterated crap.



The National Electrical Code 110.14 state:

"Splices shall be made with an approved splice cap or “wire nut”."

What do you use in place of wire nuts?

Fortunately I'm not bound by "The National Electrical Code"

So I use either proper screw terminals usually fitted with a rising
leaf spring or preferably gas tight crimps, crimped with an approved,
calibrated crimp tool and then protected with adhesive lined, low
smoke and fume, zero halogen heat shrink This latter method in
particular quickly gives a guaranteed low impedance connection that
will last decades. i.e. the professional way to do it, not the bodgit
and scarper method espoused by "The National Electrical Code"

Wasn't it Michael Faraday that called the USA "The land of the free
and home of the smoldering wirenut?"


--

I agree. They are not used because they are the best. They are used because
they are the least they can get away with.

"Mike" wrote in message
...
..

They are pure unadulterated crap.


--

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:30:13 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Mike wrote:

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.

And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?

Everything, I wouldn't even trust them on low voltage door bell wiring
let alone anything carrying mains voltage and current.

They are pure unadulterated crap.


You want an argument, change the subject.

You want a properly engineered electrical installation, emigrate


--

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:19:23 +0000, Mike wrote:

On 15 Dec 2006 18:00:14 GMT, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:33:08 +0000, Mike wrote:

On 14 Dec 2006 10:56:08 -0800, wrote:

and attached with good wirenuts

ROFLMAO

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.

Actaully, that "bodge" is required by the electrical code in US wiring,
that or an equivalent.

So there is an equivalent to a wirenut is there? I'm having great
difficulty thinking of anything else that could "perform" a similar
"function" and be so badly engineered for the task in hand.

So what do you use?

Do you know of any cases in which wire nuts caused
fires?

Google images "wire nut" and "wirenut" brings up quite a good
selection.

Please post a link to one of those images in which there was a fire caused
by wirenuts. The only images I find that are at all relevant show burnt
wirenuts due to improper use with aluminum wire in violation of code, and
in none of them was there any indication of a structure fire. Now
admittedly I did not take the time to examine more than the first ten
pages or so of images.

What do _you_ use?

Fortunately I reside in the true land of the free where higher standards
are used in electrical installations. Basically just about everywhere
other than the USA.

The question was not where you reside, the question was what you use in
lieu of wire nuts. So what do you use? Or don't you know?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article ,
Mike wrote:
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Mike" wrote in message
. ..
On 14 Dec 2006 10:56:08 -0800, wrote:

and attached with good wirenuts

ROFLMAO

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.


And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?

Everything, I wouldn't even trust them on low voltage door bell wiring
let alone anything carrying mains voltage and current.

They are pure unadulterated crap.


--

I'm curious about what you consider an acceptable alternative.

--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:25:15 +0000, Mike wrote:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:26:49 GMT, Nova wrote:

Mike wrote:
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"

And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?


Everything, I wouldn't even trust them on low voltage door bell wiring
let alone anything carrying mains voltage and current.

They are pure unadulterated crap.



The National Electrical Code 110.14 state:

"Splices shall be made with an approved splice cap or “wire nut”."

What do you use in place of wire nuts?

Fortunately I'm not bound by "The National Electrical Code"

So I use either proper screw terminals usually fitted with a rising
leaf spring or preferably gas tight crimps, crimped with an approved,
calibrated crimp tool and then protected with adhesive lined, low
smoke and fume, zero halogen heat shrink This latter method in
particular quickly gives a guaranteed low impedance connection that
will last decades. i.e. the professional way to do it, not the bodgit
and scarper method espoused by "The National Electrical Code"

Wasn't it Michael Faraday that called the USA "The land of the free
and home of the smoldering wirenut?"

So you use screws to splice three wires together? That's downright scary.

As for your gas tight crimps, those things are so dependent on your
calibrated tool that they ought to be outlawed. Talk about a fire hazard.

Oh, and your beer sucks.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:27:28 +0000, Mike wrote:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:30:13 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Mike wrote:

Wirenut: Heap of crap half assed solution looking for a fire, bodge,
commonly found in North American wiring installations.

And your problem with wire nuts is precisely what?

Everything, I wouldn't even trust them on low voltage door bell wiring
let alone anything carrying mains voltage and current.

They are pure unadulterated crap.


You want an argument, change the subject.

You want a properly engineered electrical installation, emigrate

And you have yet to explain to us what you use wherever you live to serve
the function served in the US by wire nuts.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

wrote:

I'm curious about what you consider an acceptable alternative.


Depends on the application and type of conductors involved.

Lew

In article t,
Lew Hodgett wrote:
wrote:

I'm curious about what you consider an acceptable alternative.


Depends on the application and type of conductors involved.

Lew

Lew? I didn't realize you were the OP. Anyway, here's a specific
example, tell me what you would use in the place of wire nuts:

Ceiling junction box with light fixture attached, power coming directly
to the that box, with a switch loop going to a wall mounted switch.
Using regular NM (Romex) cabling.

How would you connect the line neutral to the light fixture
neutral,the line hot to the switch loop, and the return from the
switch loop to the light fixture hot conductor?
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

Tim Douglass wrote in
:

On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:25:44 GMT, "Pop`"
wrote:

Tim Douglass wrote:
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:50:26 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

As you all know, a troll hijacked one of my posts and kept
insisting that omitting a neutral on a pure 240v circuit would
cause a fire, which would invalidate the insurance.
But that brought up the question in my mind, can improper wiring
actually cause a fire?

Yes.

See here for one example:

http://www.douglassclan.com/ManufacturedHomeDanger.html

Ouch! I stopped to read that page, thinking it might have something
interesting or that I hadn't come across, and indeed, it did. The
amount of misinformation there is large, especially with the assumed
theories that were stated.
I don't doubt your initial experience as I've seen it myself, but
... I
think you exaggerated greatly and unfortunately made a lot of wrong
guesses about what what and why.
If you'd like some assistance in updating that page so it's
accurate and
usable as an FYI, I'm sure there are people here who would assist you
in that endeavor, myself included. As it stands, it's a badly
expressed example of a bad situation but your understanding of
electricity is obviously lacking and in need of improvement.

Please elucidate. I am actually quite experienced with electricity and
understand home wiring very well, but I was attempting to explain the
issue in a "dumbed-down" way so that it would be clear to anyone
reading it. I haven't looked at that page since I put it up a couple
years ago, but it passed muster with a couple of electrical
contractors who are friends of mine.

If you have corrections I would really like to hear about them. Either
post them here or e-mail me.

Thanks.
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin...
oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com




Also note that the amount of electricity that can flow through a system
is controlled by the amount of resistance on the circuit, with the most
basic factor controlling resistance being the size of the wire. If we
shrink the wire two things happen; first, less power gets through, and
second, the wire heats up at that point.

You wrote this? This is really a 'dumbed down' start. I stopped reading
after the above. I'm sure you are experienced with electricity and
understand home wiring very well, but your explanation of it needs work.
No offense meant.
Hank

Here I look at a subject line to which the answer is, yes it can.
But then again so can "to code wiring".

Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618

wrote:

Lew? I didn't realize you were the OP. Anyway, here's a specific
example, tell me what you would use in the place of wire nuts:

Ceiling junction box with light fixture attached, power coming directly
to the that box, with a switch loop going to a wall mounted switch.
Using regular NM (Romex) cabling.

How would you connect the line neutral to the light fixture
neutral,the line hot to the switch loop, and the return from the
switch loop to the light fixture hot conductor?

What you are describing is the classic application for which the wirenut
was designed to solve.

Namely, the joining of a solid conductor (Romex) and a stranded pigtail
(the lighting fixture).

It is not a particularly good long term connection; however, there are
some conditions in this application that minimize future problems.

1) There is very little chance of vibration impacting the wirenut
termination.

2) The load is probably 600 watts or less so long term heat build up as
a result of a high resistance connection is minimized.

About the only possible alternate to a wirenut that is economically
viable would be a butt splice connector which would be totally dependent
on being able to make a proper mechanical crimp on a solid conductor,
something I'm not qualified to comment on, but would refer to the splice
manufacturer.

Lew

In article t,
Lew Hodgett wrote:
wrote:

Lew? I didn't realize you were the OP. Anyway, here's a specific
example, tell me what you would use in the place of wire nuts:

Ceiling junction box with light fixture attached, power coming directly
to the that box, with a switch loop going to a wall mounted switch.
Using regular NM (Romex) cabling.

How would you connect the line neutral to the light fixture
neutral,the line hot to the switch loop, and the return from the
switch loop to the light fixture hot conductor?

What you are describing is the classic application for which the wirenut
was designed to solve.

Namely, the joining of a solid conductor (Romex) and a stranded pigtail
(the lighting fixture).

It is not a particularly good long term connection; however, there are
some conditions in this application that minimize future problems.

1) There is very little chance of vibration impacting the wirenut
termination.

2) The load is probably 600 watts or less so long term heat build up as
a result of a high resistance connection is minimized.

About the only possible alternate to a wirenut that is economically
viable would be a butt splice connector which would be totally dependent
on being able to make a proper mechanical crimp on a solid conductor,
something I'm not qualified to comment on, but would refer to the splice
manufacturer.

Lew




OK... Are you saying that you WOULD use a wirenut in this case?

--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -