RicodJour wrote:
woodpassion wrote:
Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

There're a couple of ways to approach this and most people here have
given the easy out - bail out now. Good advice.

People that don't offer even minor hospitality to workers, and
particularly friends that are working for them, are scum. It's
indicative of a mentality that is best described as a defective human.

snip

I strongly agree!! I have bought lunch for contractors whom I AM PAYING
for a job. The house is finished now, but I'll still offer the cable
guy, or electrician, or UPS driver etc. a bottled water or Gatorade
when they arrive, and send them away with another for the (Texas) hot
drive to the next job.

To the OP, the most charitable description of your "friends" is
"clueless and inconsiderate. The more appropriate description is
"bloodsucking users". They should have been crushing you with kindness
for the favor you did them. They already seem to have an outsized sense
of entitlement. Imagine what they'll be like if they have paid you and
feel you "owe them" the work.

I do car repairs for my in-laws (occasionally pretty extensive jobs)
and they always try to pay me. I never accept, but they'll immediately
set a date for a nice steak or barbecue dinner to show appreciation.
Plus, my father-in-law frequents garage/estate sales and occasionally
brings me a great tool or other find and won't let me even pay his
cost. It's a pleasure to do favors for people like this.

RUN, do not walk, from this potentially disastous "job". These are not
nice people.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:25:53 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:

Bonanza training wheels. G

AKA: Split tailed doctor killer, as it was told to me.

Lew

I prefer the looks of the straight tailed version myself. From what I
understand, the "killer" part of the plane is totally undeserved for any
qualified pilot willing to actually do weight and balance calculations.

While W&B may be part of it, I've long had a theory that the reason
the Bonanza had such a reputation is that doctors were among the very
few that could afford a Bonanza (and the Bonanza is/was right near the
top of the desirability scale in single engine aircraft) straight out
of the box after getting a license without working up to it through
progressively more complex airplanes like the rest of us have to. Lack
of experience basically, or as we in the ATC business used to say: a
hundred mile an hour pilot in a 200 mile an hour airplane.

We used to have more trouble with Mooney pilots than any other type. I
posited that (as with Bonanzas, but from a slightly different aspect),
the affordability of the Mooney permitted too many hundred mile an
hour pilots to own them and they were far too frequently several miles
per hour behind. My experience, by the way, is mostly from the IFR
perspective, which only adds to the complexity issue.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

B A R R Y wrote:

From what I
understand, the "killer" part of the plane is totally undeserved
for any
qualified pilot willing to actually do weight and balance
calculations.

snip aircraft stuff

It was a reference to a high performance aircraft that exceeded the
capabilities of the pilot.

Can tell you a very interesting tale about flying in a "banana" from
Cleveland to San Angelo, TX and back a couple of times during a major
airline strike back in the mid 60s.

Lew

LRod wrote:

While W&B may be part of it, I've long had a theory that the reason
the Bonanza had such a reputation is that doctors were among the very
few that could afford a Bonanza (and the Bonanza is/was right near the
top of the desirability scale in single engine aircraft) straight out
of the box after getting a license without working up to it through
progressively more complex airplanes like the rest of us have to. Lack
of experience basically, or as we in the ATC business used to say: a
hundred mile an hour pilot in a 200 mile an hour airplane.

That exact explanation might go for a Cirrus today. Next? VLJ's! A
400 MPH, 30,000 ft. doctor!

My experience, by the way, is mostly from the IFR
perspective, which only adds to the complexity issue.

Boy does it ever. That's something that a good, modern GPS (and the
proper training in it's use) really helps simplify. Autopilots are much
cheaper and more prevalent than the early Bonanza days, as well.

Best doctor-pilot story I've heard in a while, told to me at a fly-in in
July, by a guy based at the field where it supposedly happened:

At Republic, which is ~10 NM ENE of JFK, a Bonanza runs off the end of
the runway. FRG has ~5500 and 6500 ft runways, not exactly short or
difficult to stay on for a piston single. Upon arrival, they find a
slightly damaged aircraft with no one aboard. EMS & Airport personnel
literally beat the bushes for hours looking for the occupant(s),
thinking injured or stunned people wandered off and collapsed or got
lost on airport property. A few hours later, Dr. Anon and his
"companion" (daughter??? G), whom he doesn't want listed on reports,
appear at the FBO asking for the location and condition of the plane.
Where were they? They were late for dinner reservations!

I don't know if it's really true, but the guy telling it is a local cop
on Long Island.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:38:43 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:


Best doctor-pilot story I've heard in a while, told to me at a fly-in in
July, by a guy based at the field where it supposedly happened:
...A few hours later, Dr. Anon and his "companion" (daughter???

Similar, but much sadder story: I was working a midshift one winter
night. About 0400 (lcl) we vectored a Bonanza (out of BNA, if I recall
correctly) for the ILS at PIA, turned him over to the CTAF (PIA TWR
closed on mids), and never heard from him again.

After about a half hour alerted watch desk, who contacted various
people on a hierarchy list, finally ISP found the wreckage a mile
short of the runway, all iced up. Two bodies, pilot and much younger,
unrelated female.

The really sad part was that part of the phone call hierarchy was to
the home of the registered A/C owner to see if he had arrived and
failed to call in. The owner's wife answered the (by now) 0600 phone
call. I would not have wanted to be involved in that conversation.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"woodpassion" wrote
I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

woodpassion

BTDT. I *usually* say, "If you pay me what *you* think I'm worth, I'll be
insulted; If you pay me what *I* think I'm worth, You'll be insulted".
"Just pay me enough to ensure that I won't turn you down next time."

Max

woodpassion wrote:
Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.

Wow, that is a mamoth job to do, especially if they just sat on their
asses the whole time and did not help. They could've at least helped
you hang the drywall or haul away the debris.

I'm sure you did a great job. But now these friends are thinking "How
can we get this sucker to do more, and Cheap?"

Tell them you don't have time to do this job. Even if you need the
money badly, there's easier ways to make money. This job will destroy
what's left of your friendship. They treated you like a slave when you
were working for free. Can you imagine how miserable you'll be doing
this when they're paying you. Oh yeah, they will screw you over on the
fees. That's why they are asking for an hourly rate and a max hours.
I'm sure they'll add a lot of extra tasks on, and still expect you to
only charge the max hour rate.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:17:14 GMT, "JimR" wrote:


Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

[snip]

I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to
do the
work for them at any price.

Why come up with an "excuse"? Just man up and tell them that you (or
the OP) doesn't like to work for friends because it's frought with
problems on both sides.

I like that answer. It's either friends or an arms-length relationship, but
can't be both. I've been in similar circumstances, providing sophisticated
spreadsheets and other computer programs. For me, I won't charge for my
time because I'm not a computer professional and can't/won't warranty my
work. Neither would I guarantee my woodwork.


Once you start getting paid
for something, you have an obligation to (a) do it right, (b) do it
professionally, and (c) fix it when necessary. Regards --


Why? That's never bothered Microsoft or any of a number of other
"professional" software vendors. :-)



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:


Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tear out of old paneling , framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.

So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input.

I've got a friend for whom I have done things. He's also a guy to
whom I have loaned tools. He's never expected me to work for free and
he's taken good care of my tools if he's done the work himself.

He recently asked me to make something for him. I worked up how much
I would charge for that, told him and didn't hear back. I guess his
situation can't fit that into his budget at this time. The work
hasn't been done by me, him or anyone else.

In the end, we're still friends.

The good part is the he recognizes that by asking me to make something
he's taking up my time and putting wear on my stuff and compensates
accordingly. Probably not as well as if I'd be doing this for a
stranger, but it still works out.

It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to
you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything
for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and
let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude
confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it
out, maybe they won't.

On 29 Aug 2006 09:34:04 -0700, wrote:


I strongly agree!! I have bought lunch for contractors whom I AM PAYING
for a job. The house is finished now, but I'll still offer the cable
guy, or electrician, or UPS driver etc. a bottled water or Gatorade
when they arrive, and send them away with another for the (Texas) hot
drive to the next job.

snip

For sure... we're seeing the difference a little courtesy and consideration
makes on our house in Baja...

We're building next to our friends from CA, and using the same builder...

They're sort of "high maintenance" people and are pretty insistent that
deadlines be met, everything goes by the original plans, etc.. Sort of typical
Gringos, I'm afraid..

We're pretty laid back and always bring him a pen, bowl, wood burning, etc. when
we come down and go out of our way to tell him what a great job he's doing... If
we have a question or want something done differently, we try to be tactful and
compliment the rest of the work while requesting things..

The difference in the 2 houses is actually visible... there's is EXACTLY to
plan... period...

Our house, mostly due to the builders suggestions as we go, is better finished,
has more upgrades, (most at no charge), and only his best people work on it...
an example is that when I really started picturing working in the shop, I
realized that I should have asked 220v outlets on 2 more walls... he just said
"no problem" and had the electrician add them.. at no charge!

He called yesterday and asked if we wanted the windows installed in the center,
outside or inside of the wall space... something that hadn't even occurred to
me...
We talked a while and decided that since the walls were so thick, we'd center
them and leave a 4" sill on each side, something my wife likes the idea of...
He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per the
plans...

Just a reminder to myself that courtesy and respect go a long way... 2 things
that the OP's "friends" definitely didn't show for him...
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"mac davis" wrote in message

He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per
the
plans...

Ahhh, yes ... the sweetest revenge a builder/contractor can exact from
asses: doing it _exactly_ according to their (bad) plan.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/21/06

Tom Kendrick wrote:
I agree with what the other posters have said:

1. Unless this is a legitimate charity case (which it does not seem to
be) tell them that your situation has changed and you are no longer
taking on these types of projects.
2. Just because they ASK you a question does not require that you
answer it. In this case, they are asking the wrong question to the
wrong person. Here is the RIGHT question:

Are you interested in taking on another project for us?

Here is the right answer: No, I would prefer that you find someone
else to do the that project for you.

If they persist with other questions, your response should be that you
have no knowledge of what prevailing rates and time required - that
would be something to ask whoever they consider. Do NOT give them an
estimate.

You can retain your relationship with these people (friends,
neighbors, etc.) by simply stating that while you will continue to
meet them socially, your priorities have changed and you do not have
the TIME do take on their project.

There just are some folks who don't "get it" when it comes to showing
appreciation for what you do for them, whether you are being fully
compensated or not. Poor folks - they just don't know no better. Their
bad manners are showing.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:


Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out
for lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their
basement. Have had too many similar experiences with others in the
past year and have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have
a full time job not related to building, but am a very skilled
carpenter/woodworker) So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom
next to finished basement remodeled. I need some guidance on how
much to charge...anyone here do paid work for friends? I'd like to
just charge a flat fee of what it's worth to me to even bother doing
it...they want me to give them an hourly rate and an estimate of how
much time it will take. What do you think? Thanks for any input.
I am new here and I really appreciate this site.

If it's causing trouble, one or more of the parties doesn't know what
friendship really means. Cut losses and be honest. A real friend won't
care.

"George Max" wrote in message

It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to
you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything
for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and
let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude
confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it
out, maybe they won't.

Doesn't a lot of this depend on the friend you have, who the person is and
how close a friend they are? I've got a best friend that I'd do anything for
if it was within my capability and on the outset, appears to not going to
cost me something exorbitant. He's rarely asked me for anything and when
I've been in need and asked him to go out of his way for me, he's done it
without question. I know what when I have an emergency, he will be there to
help me and he knows the reverse is true. It may be that we don't even think
of taking advantage of each other because we both know that if it comes down
to something really important, we're both willing to go the extra distance
for each other. I call this person my best friend and I wouldn't have it any
other way.

When I have a project beyond my skills and I have a friend, neighbor, inlaw,
aquaintance that I know will do a good job, I insist on them NOT to give me
a discount. I want a job well done and am willing to pay for it. It's not
fair to them. Though they usually insist. I also help any way I can
without getting in the way.
I have a neighbor in the Home improve biz and asked his advice on patching
my roof after a large limb fell on it and created some minor leaks. He went
to his house 3 doors down, cut some coil stock, slid it under the damaged
shingles and nailed it down. 15-20 minutes max. Done. He would not accept a
penny. He did get a gift cert in the mail for the restaurant of his choice
along with a sincere thank you.


"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"George Max" wrote in message

It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to
you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything
for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and
let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude
confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it
out, maybe they won't.

Doesn't a lot of this depend on the friend you have, who the person is and
how close a friend they are? I've got a best friend that I'd do anything
for
if it was within my capability and on the outset, appears to not going to
cost me something exorbitant. He's rarely asked me for anything and when
I've been in need and asked him to go out of his way for me, he's done it
without question. I know what when I have an emergency, he will be there
to
help me and he knows the reverse is true. It may be that we don't even
think
of taking advantage of each other because we both know that if it comes
down
to something really important, we're both willing to go the extra distance
for each other. I call this person my best friend and I wouldn't have it
any
other way.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:49:00 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

"mac davis" wrote in message

He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per
the
plans...

Ahhh, yes ... the sweetest revenge a builder/contractor can exact from
asses: doing it _exactly_ according to their (bad) plan.

Exactly.... I think a good designer/builder can see things shaping up during
construction and suggest little changes that will enhance the home... and he
damn sure didn't do that for them.. *g*

Also, (their house was started a few months before ours) he didn't like the way
the plywood under the verandas looked on their house and asked if we'd rather
have exposed beams.. at no added costs... He's a pretty cool dude..
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:


Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

This is a troll, right? Not to say this hasn't been a great thread to read, but this is the only
post this person has made on usenet that I could find. Hasn't even chimed in on his own thread.

Curious minds wonder, and in my case, sometimes wander.

Troll or not, dropkick those bastids through the goal posts of life, and get on with your own.
You'll be better off without that baggage.

Regards,
Roy


On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:


Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy wrote:

Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.

(If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
practice.)

This is a troll, right? Not to say this hasn't been a great thread to read, but this is the only
post this person has made on usenet that I could find. Hasn't even chimed in on his own thread.

Curious minds wonder, and in my case, sometimes wander.

Troll or not, dropkick those bastids through the goal posts of life, and get on with your own.
You'll be better off without that baggage.

Regards,
Roy


On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:


Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy wrote:

Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.

(If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
practice.)


It's a PIA, but I deal with it.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:52:24 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

"George Max" wrote in message

It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to
you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything
for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and
let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude
confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it
out, maybe they won't.

Doesn't a lot of this depend on the friend you have, who the person is and
how close a friend they are? I've got a best friend that I'd do anything for
if it was within my capability and on the outset, appears to not going to
cost me something exorbitant. He's rarely asked me for anything and when
I've been in need and asked him to go out of his way for me, he's done it
without question. I know what when I have an emergency, he will be there to
help me and he knows the reverse is true. It may be that we don't even think
of taking advantage of each other because we both know that if it comes down
to something really important, we're both willing to go the extra distance
for each other. I call this person my best friend and I wouldn't have it any
other way.


The OP painted a picture of friends that used him for free labor and
knowledge on a major project and couldn't even go so far as to think
of him when carry out food was ordered.

It's that kind of situation I was addressing.

The kind of friend you mention is a whole different ballgame. I don't
think the OP has that kind of relationship with them. Of course you
go the extra mile, heck, the extra hundred miles for a friend that's
like a brother.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy wrote:

Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.

(If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
practice.)


BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
thread:

Top Posts: 5
Bottom Posts: 53

So I don't see how you can say it is an out of date practice...

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus"
wrote:

Frequency has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.

BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
thread:

Top Posts: 5
Bottom Posts: 53

So I don't see how you can say it is an out of date practice...


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus"
wrote:

Frequency has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.


Top posting would be ok if the majority of people top posted. But they
don't, they bottom post. When you top post, when everyone else is bottom
posting, it gets hard to follow a conversation. It's really as simple as
that. It has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.

But I will stop bitching about it, since its a relatively small number of
people to do it. And I can't complain too much when some top posters answer
my stupid ass woodworking questions.

LRod wrote:

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus"
wrote:

Frequency has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.

BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
thread:


So now we have to top post to be "modern"?

This topic comes up almost as often as politics.

Top posting is like Jeopardy. Putting the answer first and the question
second :-).

While it probably won't convince the "modernists", a good reference is:

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7ewijnands/nnq/nquote.html#Q2

And that's ALL I'm going to say on the subject.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus" wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy wrote:

Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.

(If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
practice.)


BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
thread:

Top Posts: 5
Bottom Posts: 53

So I don't see how you can say it is an out of date practice...

damn, 52 people were whipped into submission???

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus"
wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy wrote:

Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.

(If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
practice.)


BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
thread:

Top Posts: 5
Bottom Posts: 53

So I don't see how you can say it is an out of date practice...

If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something like
300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.

Guess who's the 1?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something like
300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.

Guess who's the 1?

LRod

In IT, some of us have a similar issue with the phrase "NIC card".

todd

"LRod" wrote in message
...

If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something like
300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.

Guess who's the 1?


Well, that might be applicable if we were talking about PINs or ATMs or
other acronyms, but we are not.

As I said before, even though there is a logical reason why people should
bottom post, the MOST important thing is that everyone does it the same way
(so conversation flows in the same direction, either or up or down (not up
then down and then to the middle)). Its like driving on the right side of
the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.

My little unscientific poll clearly shows that majority of the poster in
rec.woodworking bottom post, so you should too, otherwise you might cause an
accident.

I enjoy your posts and I know you are an intelligent person, so at this
point I think you are just being stubborn and argumentative.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:45:50 -0700, Larry Blanchard
wrote:

LRod wrote:

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus"
wrote:

Frequency has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.

BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
thread:


So now we have to top post to be "modern"?

This topic comes up almost as often as politics.

Top posting is like Jeopardy. Putting the answer first and the question
second :-).



Wow, I actually agree with Larry on something. :-)

.... snip





+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Agreed.
Maybe I should start side posting.

"TBM" wrote in message
...

Well, that might be applicable if we were talking about PINs or ATMs or
other acronyms, but we are not.

As I said before, even though there is a logical reason why people should
bottom post, the MOST important thing is that everyone does it the same
way
(so conversation flows in the same direction, either or up or down (not up
then down and then to the middle)). Its like driving on the right side of
the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.

My little unscientific poll clearly shows that majority of the poster in
rec.woodworking bottom post, so you should too, otherwise you might cause
an
accident.

I enjoy your posts and I know you are an intelligent person, so at this
point I think you are just being stubborn and argumentative.

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:34:21 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Agreed. Hmmm.
Maybe I should start side posting. That's an interesting
concept.


"TBM" wrote in message
...

Well, that might be applicable if we were talking about PINs or ATMs or
other acronyms, but we are not.

As I said before, even though there is a logical reason why people should
bottom post, the MOST important thing is that everyone does it the same
way
(so conversation flows in the same direction, either or up or down (not up
then down and then to the middle)). Its like driving on the right side of
the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.

My little unscientific poll clearly shows that majority of the poster in
rec.woodworking bottom post, so you should too, otherwise you might cause
an
accident.

I enjoy your posts and I know you are an intelligent person, so at this
point I think you are just being stubborn and argumentative.




--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"todd" wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message
.. .
If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something like
300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.

Guess who's the 1?

LRod

In IT, some of us have a similar issue with the phrase "NIC card".

todd


--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

"todd" wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message
.. .
If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something like
300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.

Guess who's the 1?

LRod

In IT, some of us have a similar issue with the phrase "NIC card".

todd

Or "The suspect left the scene in a car that was red in color"
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:34:21 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Agreed. Hmmm.
Maybe I should start side posting. That's an interesting
concept.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

Wow, I actually agree with Larry on something. :-)

Yabbut this is a religious issue, not a political one.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/06

Boy I love these little tiffs by the techies. Personally, I post
wherever the newsreader I am using positions the curser when I hit the
reply button. Most folks can figure it out.

Dave Hall

BTW Agent apparently positions the curser at the top.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:25:02 -0700, mac davis
wrote:

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus" wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy wrote:

Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.

(If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
practice.)


BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
thread:

Top Posts: 5
Bottom Posts: 53

So I don't see how you can say it is an out of date practice...

damn, 52 people were whipped into submission???

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Dave Hall wrote:

Boy I love these little tiffs by the techies. Personally, I post
wherever the newsreader I am using positions the curser when I hit the
reply button. Most folks can figure it out.

Dave Hall

BTW Agent apparently positions the curser at the top.

Interesting. I guess it does. I never noticed that--just find it so
easy and logical to scroll down to the comment I am replying to that I
never noticed I was making such an effort.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:34:21 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Agreed.
Maybe I should start side posting.

I tried that in one of these "discussions"... It was WAY too much work...


Question for the top OR bottom posting skirmishers:

Doesn't the way the last poster "posts" determine where you do?

In this case. CW top posted.... so I did, also to keep the thread of who said
what, and in what order...

If he'd bottom posted, I would have followed him there...

Will I go to hell if I answer inline????


So many questions, so little time....


Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

mac davis wrote:

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:34:21 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Agreed.
Maybe I should start side posting.

I tried that in one of these "discussions"... It was WAY too much work...


Question for the top OR bottom posting skirmishers:

Doesn't the way the last poster "posts" determine where you do?

In this case. CW top posted.... so I did,

Look again. You post is (quite logically, IMHO) below his.

also to keep the thread of who said
what, and in what order...

Because he top posted, you couldn't do that, so had to delete the
out-of order stuff below it to make sense. That deletion is probably
desireable--you don't need the whole thread for context, just the
portion to which you are replying.

Will I go to hell if I answer inline????
I hope not. If so, I'll see you there...

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

Dave Hall wrote:

Boy I love these little tiffs by the techies. Personally, I post
wherever the newsreader I am using positions the curser when I hit the
reply button. Most folks can figure it out.

I'm reminded of an observation made by what I considered a wise man.

1) There are over a billion Chinese people on this earth.

2) Possibly 50-100 million of them have ever heard of this subject
under discussion.

3) Possibly 10-25 million of them understand the subject under discussion.

4) Out of that group, what are the chances you can find 10,000 of them
that give a F**K about the subject under discussion?

Lew