Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.




--
woodpassion

"woodpassion" wrote in
message .com...
Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.

I'm shocked. Define "friend". That's just plain rude. I had two buddies come
over with circular saws and crowbars so the 3 of us could rip out 300 sq.ft.
of the three layers of flooring in our liviingroom when we moved into our
house. My wife went out and got a huge pile of food for the whole day, as
well as a carload of beer to go with the power tools.

"woodpassion" wrote in
message .com...

Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

Don't do it.
If you can't even agree on how to bill you will never agree on if it was
done properly. If something goes wrong (and it will) you will wish you
listened to me.

woodpassion wrote:
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.


I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to do the
work for them at any price. Let them pay somebody who does it for a living and
maybe the next time they'll come to appreciate the value of the work you've
already done for them. I'm amazed you'd even consider doing anything for them
at all. Are you a rug? You've sure as hell been walked over.

First time? Fine; it was a learning experience for you. But the next time? I
guess you didn't learn.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
woodpassion wrote:
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.


I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to do the
work for them at any price.

Why come up with an "excuse"? Just man up and tell them that you (or
the OP) doesn't like to work for friends because it's frought with
problems on both sides.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

[snip]

I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to
do the
work for them at any price.

Why come up with an "excuse"? Just man up and tell them that you (or
the OP) doesn't like to work for friends because it's frought with
problems on both sides.

I like that answer. It's either friends or an arms-length relationship, but
can't be both. I've been in similar circumstances, providing sophisticated
spreadsheets and other computer programs. For me, I won't charge for my
time because I'm not a computer professional and can't/won't warranty my
work. Neither would I guarantee my woodwork. Once you start getting paid
for something, you have an obligation to (a) do it right, (b) do it
professionally, and (c) fix it when necessary. Regards --

"JimR" wrote

Once you start getting paid
for something, you have an obligation to (a) do it right, (b) do it
professionally, and (c) fix it when necessary. Regards -

And, you can't just pick up and leave when they do something ignorant.

Steve

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:17:14 GMT, "JimR" wrote:

snip
I like that answer. It's either friends or an arms-length relationship, but
can't be both. I've been in similar circumstances, providing sophisticated
spreadsheets and other computer programs. For me, I won't charge for my
time because I'm not a computer professional and can't/won't warranty my
work. Neither would I guarantee my woodwork. Once you start getting paid
for something, you have an obligation to (a) do it right, (b) do it
professionally, and (c) fix it when necessary. Regards --


I just had that situation come up last night... I had a neighbor pick a pen last
week for her birthday... sort of a personal thing, but it's hard for me to
decide what pen someone else might like, because I seldom think one is good
enough.. *g*

Anyway, she asked last night if I'd sell her one that she liked, so that she
could give it to her sister for HER b-day... I threw it in a plastic case and
told her that it was a compliment to me that someone liked a pen that much, and
please take it as a gift...
She said that it wasn't fair that I should be giving her a 2nd pen, and insisted
on paying for it...
Not wanting to try explaining that I really don't like selling to friends and
that the damn thing cost less than $4 to make, I just said "Ok, that one's
$250"...

After the shock and the laughter, she decided that free was better...

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:17:14 GMT, "JimR" wrote:


Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

[snip]

I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to
do the
work for them at any price.

Why come up with an "excuse"? Just man up and tell them that you (or
the OP) doesn't like to work for friends because it's frought with
problems on both sides.

I like that answer. It's either friends or an arms-length relationship, but
can't be both. I've been in similar circumstances, providing sophisticated
spreadsheets and other computer programs. For me, I won't charge for my
time because I'm not a computer professional and can't/won't warranty my
work. Neither would I guarantee my woodwork.


Once you start getting paid
for something, you have an obligation to (a) do it right, (b) do it
professionally, and (c) fix it when necessary. Regards --


Why? That's never bothered Microsoft or any of a number of other
"professional" software vendors. :-)



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

woodpassion wrote:
....
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out ...

I'd say this "friendship" is pretty one-sided from this story.

I'm with the others that it almost certainly will not be a good
experience to try to do work for them as a contractor given their
demonstrated miserliness is far more important to them than your value
to them as a friend...

If you do decide to take it on, I suggest strongly you do it only on
your terms with which you are comfortable as a "take it or leave it"
choice and have a written contract of what is covered specifically as
once it gets to be money, these people are going to be sticklers and
friendship will have no bearing on it (other than using you as far as
you will let them which they have already demonstrated. Of course, you
so far having been an apparently willing accomplice.)

woodpassion wrote:
Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.

snip

Personally, after the first experience, I wouldn't take the job but if
you decide differently:

1. Calculate how long you think the job will take.

2. I find the general rule of thumb is that all jobs take twice as long
as planned so double your initial guess.

3. Multiply the hours by the hourly dollar amount your comfortable
working for.

4. For this couple, triple the amount in step 3.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

woodpassion wrote:
Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several occasions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.




--
woodpassion

I definitely would not do it. Not to digress, but the work I do is a
funny thing along these lines. I'm a systems/network engineer, and I'm
sure there are a good many people out there that do similar work. For
some reason people never have a problem asking me to "take a look at
something weird their system is doing" while you are there for a social
visit (dinner, drinks, etc). Of course, 4 hours later (min), it is all
straightened out. This most would have probably cost them $100 to $200
dollars to get it done by somebody a LOT less qualified somewhere else.
But other then a quick "oh thanks", there is little appreciation.
Now, these same people would never ask plumber friend to fix the hot
water heater or unclog the toilet. They wouldn't ask my wife (an RN)
to look at a rash and treat it. Something about computer work, people
just figure, "he'd love to fix it, he's a geek..."

Anyway, back to your deal, I agree with the other poster. Beg off on
it and maybe recommend somebody (exxxxxxpeeeeensive) to do it. Perhaps
they will see the error of their ways.

Just out of curiosity, what do these people do for work?

-Jim

In article .com,
jtpr wrote:

I definitely would not do it. Not to digress, but the work I do is a
funny thing along these lines. I'm a systems/network engineer, and I'm
sure there are a good many people out there that do similar work. For
some reason people never have a problem asking me to "take a look at
something weird their system is doing" while you are there for a social
visit (dinner, drinks, etc). Of course, 4 hours later (min), it is all
straightened out. This most would have probably cost them $100 to $200
dollars to get it done by somebody a LOT less qualified somewhere else.
But other then a quick "oh thanks", there is little appreciation.
Now, these same people would never ask plumber friend to fix the hot
water heater or unclog the toilet. They wouldn't ask my wife (an RN)
to look at a rash and treat it. Something about computer work, people
just figure, "he'd love to fix it, he's a geek..."


Reminds me of some people who have gone out waterskiing with me. I
drive the truck, launch the boat, drive the boat, put gas in both at
great expense and otherwise do all of the work. My boat runs on gas,
not on "thanks". Real skiers know this immediately and always offer
gas money, before we even get wet. They are the ones who get called
back, even if I refuse the money.

Andrew Williams wrote:

Reminds me of some people who have gone out waterskiing with me. I
drive the truck, launch the boat, drive the boat, put gas in both at
great expense and otherwise do all of the work. My boat runs on gas,
not on "thanks".

I often take people flying in my small plane. It actually does run on
"thanks", and even better on smiles. The bigger the smile, the more
octane it's got! I only invite people with whom I expect to enjoy their
company. If they offer something, that's very nice. Otherwise, I've
spend some priceless time with them.

I learned a long time ago that sharing toys and unique skills (kind of
like a giving a gift) is much more enjoyable when I expect nothing in
return.

If I'm expecting a passenger to share costs, or a woodworking customer
to pay me, we discuss all the details ahead of time.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:27:01 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

I often take people flying in my small plane.

What do you have? We don't get near enough aviation talk on this
group. There has to be lots more out there.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

LRod wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:27:01 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

I often take people flying in my small plane.

What do you have?

A '76 Beech C23 Sundowner. It's similar to a Piper Cherokee /Archer
180, only roomier, slightly slower, and with more doors. This
particular example was re-engined in '97, and got most of a new panel in
the mid-90's.

Bonanza training wheels. G

woodpassion wrote:
Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several occasions while I was slaving away in their basement.

Short story short. - - - - - These people are not friends


So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

I think they are cheap *******s looking for a free ride or as close as they
can get. I'd charge $50 an hour if I'd do it at all. Not only should they
have paid for your lunch, they should have invited your wife to join you.

I'd just say "I can't take on a job like that right now" and give no
details. Once they pay you, they will think they own you and will really be
a PITA for years to come. Not worth the hassle. I'd get a tin can and
stand on the corner with a "Will Work For Food" sign before working for
these people.

Don't do it! Getting paid will make the situation worse because then
they will have even higher expectations.

Mark

I think I would copy all that this group has written here and send it to
them first. Then see what they do or say ) Some friends huh??
Tom

"woodpassion" wrote in
message .com...

Long story even shorter. These people aren't friends. Dump them.
Jim

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:

[top posted for your convenience]

Run, do not walk away from this "opportunity."

I'd be surprised you could ever be friends with them with the sour
taste in your mouth from the first job. I couldn't. Even if you can,
when you put that relationship into the client/contractor level, you
will find a whole other dynamic.

For example, they're asking for an estimate of the time to do the job.
It wouldn't surprise me a bit when (not if) it took longer than
you/they thought, there would be significant nagging and possible
renegotiations not in your favor as a result. The good news is that
will probably sink the "friendship" irrevocably. I say "good news"
because you don't need "friends" like this.

How would you handle callbacks? That's another thing to consider.

Good luck.

Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

Howdy...Always a dicey proposition when you work for friends... I tend
to work with not for, but you never know...

What you can do is take a look at your local paper and see if there are
any "Handyman" ads in the classifieds or in your phone book and see if
there are any listed there. Make a discreet inquiry call to either and
it should give you a decent idea of what your area will pay.

Good luck!!!

I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take.

I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid
materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of
Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out
some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite
indignant that I would ask him to do work. I called a friend one
day, who was always over looking get something done, to set up a time
to give me a hand standing up walls for my garden shed. He became
too busy for the foreseeable future. 2nd inlaw wanted some work done
and I needed a massage (she does that). I figured an exchange would
be appropriate. Turned out my labor was free and she needed to
charge me her normal hourly fee.

My labor rate is 40$ hr, 2 hr minimum, no cheques, no credit and don't
think a box of donuts will do it. And a box of donuts is the fee for
talking to me about your issues. I will accept labor of equal value
( I determine) and it is done in advance. I have one inlaw who comes
when I need a hand and for him he gets anything he needs.

I have a lot of friends that I will do things for. All others are
mere aquaintances including most relatives and the labor costs 40$.

You have to remember that if these people spent money on tools and the
time to learn how to do it themselves, this would be a different
story. The ones that don't buy the tools have money for the vacations
and retirement funds because you work for free using yours tools and
time.

Pete

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:42:47 GMT, wrote:

I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid
materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of
Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out
some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite
indignant that I would ask him to do work.

Pete,
I will not disagree with you about ungrateful people who won't
return the favor. However, here's the other side:

A youth group leader (friend of mine) paid the cost for two sons to
attend several youth activities because both of their parents were out
of work and on hard times.
A few months later, both adults were employed and had new cars in
their driveway. My friend told me he intended to approach the parents
for reimbursement of what he had paid for their sons' benefit. I don't
remember whether he did or not.
What I told him was that the parents would not consider they owed him
anything - he was just being generous for the boys sake. He had never
made any contract or agreement that he would be repaid, so they would
rebuff his efforts to collect.

Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal
commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon
request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment
in full. No further debt is owed.

Some folks just don't know any better.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:03:30 -0500, Tom Kendrick
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:42:47 GMT, wrote:

I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid
materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of
Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out
some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite
indignant that I would ask him to do work.


Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal
commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon
request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment
in full. No further debt is owed.

Some folks just don't know any better.


He was quite
indignant that I would ask him to do work.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:03:30 -0500, Tom Kendrick
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:42:47 GMT, wrote:

I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid
materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of
Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out
some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite
indignant that I would ask him to do work.

Pete,
I will not disagree with you about ungrateful people who won't
return the favor. However, here's the other side:

Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal
commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon
request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment
in full. No further debt is owed.

This makes no sense. The senario is their car/house, they buy the
material to make a fix. I flat out refuse to subsidise someone else's
car or house. I supply 'some' labor to help them do the fix. Where
does the payment in full come in?? Perhaps it's the worn parts and
extra gaskets left behind, oil and debris on the floor that doesn't
get swept up at job's end, wear and tear on tools, cost of
electricity and heat that some how got turned into payment

Some folks just don't know any better.


He was quite indignant that I would ask him to do work for me while
at the same time I did work for him . This was a discussion about
trading time for time. He didn't come over here to work, he came
over here to get a free ride. He had no intention of even helping me
help himself.

Moral to this story is there is no moral. Help those that help you
and themselves while you are helping them. Whiney moochers pay
their own way. Favors given should not require discussion. I am not
Don Corleone looking for future considerations and this not contract
law. Want a favor - give a favor.

Pete

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:03:30 -0500, Tom Kendrick wrote:


Pete,
I will not disagree with you about ungrateful people who won't
return the favor. However, here's the other side:

A youth group leader (friend of mine) paid the cost for two sons to
attend several youth activities because both of their parents were out
of work and on hard times.
A few months later, both adults were employed and had new cars in
their driveway. My friend told me he intended to approach the parents
for reimbursement of what he had paid for their sons' benefit. I don't
remember whether he did or not.
What I told him was that the parents would not consider they owed him
anything - he was just being generous for the boys sake. He had never
made any contract or agreement that he would be repaid, so they would
rebuff his efforts to collect.

Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal
commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon
request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment
in full. No further debt is owed.

Some folks just don't know any better.

I liked your friend a whole lot better before the "reimbursement" part... yuk!

To do a good and charitable thing and then expect to be paid for it just ****es
me off... YMWV


Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

I agree with what the other posters have said:

1. Unless this is a legitimate charity case (which it does not seem to
be) tell them that your situation has changed and you are no longer
taking on these types of projects.
2. Just because they ASK you a question does not require that you
answer it. In this case, they are asking the wrong question to the
wrong person. Here is the RIGHT question:

Are you interested in taking on another project for us?

Here is the right answer: No, I would prefer that you find someone
else to do the that project for you.

If they persist with other questions, your response should be that you
have no knowledge of what prevailing rates and time required - that
would be something to ask whoever they consider. Do NOT give them an
estimate.

You can retain your relationship with these people (friends,
neighbors, etc.) by simply stating that while you will continue to
meet them socially, your priorities have changed and you do not have
the TIME do take on their project.

There just are some folks who don't "get it" when it comes to showing
appreciation for what you do for them, whether you are being fully
compensated or not. Poor folks - they just don't know no better. Their
bad manners are showing.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:


Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

Tom Kendrick wrote:
I agree with what the other posters have said:

1. Unless this is a legitimate charity case (which it does not seem to
be) tell them that your situation has changed and you are no longer
taking on these types of projects.
2. Just because they ASK you a question does not require that you
answer it. In this case, they are asking the wrong question to the
wrong person. Here is the RIGHT question:

Are you interested in taking on another project for us?

Here is the right answer: No, I would prefer that you find someone
else to do the that project for you.

If they persist with other questions, your response should be that you
have no knowledge of what prevailing rates and time required - that
would be something to ask whoever they consider. Do NOT give them an
estimate.

You can retain your relationship with these people (friends,
neighbors, etc.) by simply stating that while you will continue to
meet them socially, your priorities have changed and you do not have
the TIME do take on their project.

There just are some folks who don't "get it" when it comes to showing
appreciation for what you do for them, whether you are being fully
compensated or not. Poor folks - they just don't know no better. Their
bad manners are showing.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:


Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out
for lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their
basement. Have had too many similar experiences with others in the
past year and have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have
a full time job not related to building, but am a very skilled
carpenter/woodworker) So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom
next to finished basement remodeled. I need some guidance on how
much to charge...anyone here do paid work for friends? I'd like to
just charge a flat fee of what it's worth to me to even bother doing
it...they want me to give them an hourly rate and an estimate of how
much time it will take. What do you think? Thanks for any input.
I am new here and I really appreciate this site.

If it's causing trouble, one or more of the parties doesn't know what
friendship really means. Cut losses and be honest. A real friend won't
care.

woodpassion wrote:
Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

There're a couple of ways to approach this and most people here have
given the easy out - bail out now. Good advice.

People that don't offer even minor hospitality to workers, and
particularly friends that are working for them, are scum. It's
indicative of a mentality that is best described as a defective human.
There will be plenty of other opportunities for them to display their
shortcomings if you take the work. I don't work for people like that
and have learned to weed them out before the negotiations go to far. I
beg off the job explaining that what they're looking to do isn't a good
fit for me, then I give them some names of competitors who I think
would enjoy a nightmare customer. Yes, I know, I'm evil.

As an amateur you are at a bit of a disadvantage. Are home improvement
licenses required for contractors where you are? If so, you won't have
a leg to stand on if the job goes into the toilet and you could be
setting yourself up for bigger problems.

You don't have the experience to price the job and haven't learned how
to deal with problem customers. Problem customers are best avoided at
all costs. It only takes one bad customer to swallow up the profits
from a couple or three good customers - some you can't please no matter
what you do. They'll also take every opportunity to bad mouth you and
your work.

If you're still contemplating working for them, you're either
optimistic or stupid or a bit of both. Not meant as an insult -
everyone has to put on the blinders once in while to deal with life.
If you're married you know what I mean!

The other way to approach it is to take the job, cover your ass with
asbestos/kevlar jockeys or boxers, and set it up in a way that will
minimize the headache. You'll need to have everything spelled out - if
there's _any_ room for interpretation, they'll interpret it to mean
they save money, every time. The hourly rate is simple for them to
start bitching about. "You were gone for 45 minutes for lunch and you
were ten minutes late getting here, so let's knock off an hour."
You'll have to justify every hour which is a royal pain. That "rough"
estimate of the total number of hours will come back to haunt you.
They'll interpret that to be a cap on the price.

It's a basement bathroom, so I'm not sure whether the owner will be
just looking for a place to park it or the Taj Mahal. If they're
planning on buying the fixtures and materials to save money it's
certain that it will cost you extra time.

Instead of an hourly rate give them a daily or half-day rate. That
will minimize the quibbling about the number of breaks you took, etc.
You may want to give a Not To Exceed labor price based on a written
list with the exact fixtures, materials and quantities and work on the
daily rate up to that point.

A very rough ballpark way of estimating such jobs is to add all
materials (including what is supplied by the owner) and labor then add
at least 50 or 60%. That's roughly how much a contractor would charge.
As you're doing this on the side, don't have insurance, etc it'd be
hard for you to justify charging that amount. Whatever you do, make
sure that you charge about $30 for that sandwich they never gave you.


R

RicodJour wrote:
woodpassion wrote:
Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

There're a couple of ways to approach this and most people here have
given the easy out - bail out now. Good advice.

People that don't offer even minor hospitality to workers, and
particularly friends that are working for them, are scum. It's
indicative of a mentality that is best described as a defective human.

snip

I strongly agree!! I have bought lunch for contractors whom I AM PAYING
for a job. The house is finished now, but I'll still offer the cable
guy, or electrician, or UPS driver etc. a bottled water or Gatorade
when they arrive, and send them away with another for the (Texas) hot
drive to the next job.

To the OP, the most charitable description of your "friends" is
"clueless and inconsiderate. The more appropriate description is
"bloodsucking users". They should have been crushing you with kindness
for the favor you did them. They already seem to have an outsized sense
of entitlement. Imagine what they'll be like if they have paid you and
feel you "owe them" the work.

I do car repairs for my in-laws (occasionally pretty extensive jobs)
and they always try to pay me. I never accept, but they'll immediately
set a date for a nice steak or barbecue dinner to show appreciation.
Plus, my father-in-law frequents garage/estate sales and occasionally
brings me a great tool or other find and won't let me even pay his
cost. It's a pleasure to do favors for people like this.

RUN, do not walk, from this potentially disastous "job". These are not
nice people.

On 29 Aug 2006 09:34:04 -0700, wrote:


I strongly agree!! I have bought lunch for contractors whom I AM PAYING
for a job. The house is finished now, but I'll still offer the cable
guy, or electrician, or UPS driver etc. a bottled water or Gatorade
when they arrive, and send them away with another for the (Texas) hot
drive to the next job.

snip

For sure... we're seeing the difference a little courtesy and consideration
makes on our house in Baja...

We're building next to our friends from CA, and using the same builder...

They're sort of "high maintenance" people and are pretty insistent that
deadlines be met, everything goes by the original plans, etc.. Sort of typical
Gringos, I'm afraid..

We're pretty laid back and always bring him a pen, bowl, wood burning, etc. when
we come down and go out of our way to tell him what a great job he's doing... If
we have a question or want something done differently, we try to be tactful and
compliment the rest of the work while requesting things..

The difference in the 2 houses is actually visible... there's is EXACTLY to
plan... period...

Our house, mostly due to the builders suggestions as we go, is better finished,
has more upgrades, (most at no charge), and only his best people work on it...
an example is that when I really started picturing working in the shop, I
realized that I should have asked 220v outlets on 2 more walls... he just said
"no problem" and had the electrician add them.. at no charge!

He called yesterday and asked if we wanted the windows installed in the center,
outside or inside of the wall space... something that hadn't even occurred to
me...
We talked a while and decided that since the walls were so thick, we'd center
them and leave a 4" sill on each side, something my wife likes the idea of...
He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per the
plans...

Just a reminder to myself that courtesy and respect go a long way... 2 things
that the OP's "friends" definitely didn't show for him...
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"mac davis" wrote in message

He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per
the
plans...

Ahhh, yes ... the sweetest revenge a builder/contractor can exact from
asses: doing it _exactly_ according to their (bad) plan.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/21/06

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:49:00 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

"mac davis" wrote in message

He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per
the
plans...

Ahhh, yes ... the sweetest revenge a builder/contractor can exact from
asses: doing it _exactly_ according to their (bad) plan.

Exactly.... I think a good designer/builder can see things shaping up during
construction and suggest little changes that will enhance the home... and he
damn sure didn't do that for them.. *g*

Also, (their house was started a few months before ours) he didn't like the way
the plywood under the verandas looked on their house and asked if we'd rather
have exposed beams.. at no added costs... He's a pretty cool dude..
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
wrote:


Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

If you want them to remain "friends", decline the work at any price.

You're already emotionally primed to have a conflict with them and
it'll only get worse if you take on the bathroom.

My advice only, and worth every penny you paid for it.

Good luck
Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.

A few of bits of advice I got when I went into business:

1. trading work with no money involved. Full retail for full retail.
Charge what you would charge if you were putting a price on the job. Set
the value you are trading for at what it would sell for.

2. Never do work on the if/come "if you'll give me a good price on this
job, I have a lot more work." Do each piece of work as a separate job and
as if you will never see this human again. They'll keep asking for the
discount rate.

3. A friend does not ask you to do things for free or cheaply. If they do,
they are not your friend in that regard, and a diplomatic way to decline the
work must be found. If a diplomatic way cannot be found, then bluntness
always works, but it may cost you a "friend". Now you may have, as I do,
friends that I do free work for, but they also return the favor, and over
the years, I can say the scales are even. Whenever the scales get REALLY
uneven, it's time to reassess the relationship.

Friends is friends, and business is business.

Steve

SNIP

I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
this site.


Here's another look at this old problem. Many will take your labor and
efforts for granted, and accept all the "help" they can get. Tell them
you are doing this FOR MONEY, because if you weren't, you would be
working on your own house. Educate them on what your time is worth to
you, and how you don't want to spend every weekend at their house
unless there is $$ involved.

With one of my friends, we trade out work at each other's full retail.
Once he thought he got the short end of the stick, so he had someone
else do the work he wanted. Fine with me. Sadly, he got screwed.
(OK, I did enjoy that just a little...) Now we are back on the rail
and everything works smoothly.

I work for my family, too. I charge them $40 an hour for labor only,
including picking up material they can't get delivered. I also require
lunch. Since we had the ground rules set out up front, they don't
complain. They listen to all their friends whine about how they are
getting ****ed off at their remodeling contractor and they feel like
they are getting a pretty good deal with me.

They are happier paying me than any other arrangement. We kept hours
of who did what and built a bank of hours, and they decided that it was
OK to pay me for working in their house. When it came to my turn to
cash in the hours, I got a load of top soil to spread and we worked on
trimming my huge ash trees. Strangely... they preferred the cash
arrangements...

Robert

Somebody wrote:

I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
think? Thanks for any input.

Pretty straight forward.

$1,500/4-8 hour day for anything that is legal.

$800/Anything less than 4 hours.

No overtime.

If the complain, tell them your rates are less than a lawyer.

Lew

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:38:22 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


A few of bits of advice I got when I went into business:

1. trading work with no money involved. Full retail for full retail.
Charge what you would charge if you were putting a price on the job. Set
the value you are trading for at what it would sell for.

2. Never do work on the if/come "if you'll give me a good price on this
job, I have a lot more work." Do each piece of work as a separate job and
as if you will never see this human again. They'll keep asking for the
discount rate.

3. A friend does not ask you to do things for free or cheaply. If they do,
they are not your friend in that regard, and a diplomatic way to decline the
work must be found. If a diplomatic way cannot be found, then bluntness
always works, but it may cost you a "friend". Now you may have, as I do,
friends that I do free work for, but they also return the favor, and over
the years, I can say the scales are even. Whenever the scales get REALLY
uneven, it's time to reassess the relationship.

Here's a fourth one I learned really early as well-

When you give a friend a discount, make it very clear that your rate
is for them only. My standard line is "If I hear that you told anyone
what you paid me, any further work will be at three times what I'm
charging you now." It might seem like a nasty thing to say to a
friend, but if you don't, you WILL discover that they have friends you
don't know (and probably don't care for) that will be more than happy
to put you to work on the first guy's recommendation, but refuse to
pay one penny more than what they were told was the going rate. This
sort of thing runs out of control very quickly if you're any good and
word-of-mouth gets going. Pretty soon you can't find work that
doesn't have a pre-set ceiling on it, and you have to ditch a whole
circle of customers.

Friends is friends, and business is business.

Steve

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 03:41:19 -0500, Prometheus wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:38:22 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


A few of bits of advice I got when I went into business:

1. trading work with no money involved. Full retail for full retail.
Charge what you would charge if you were putting a price on the job. Set
the value you are trading for at what it would sell for.

2. Never do work on the if/come "if you'll give me a good price on this
job, I have a lot more work." Do each piece of work as a separate job and
as if you will never see this human again. They'll keep asking for the
discount rate.

3. A friend does not ask you to do things for free or cheaply. If they do,
they are not your friend in that regard, and a diplomatic way to decline the
work must be found. If a diplomatic way cannot be found, then bluntness
always works, but it may cost you a "friend". Now you may have, as I do,
friends that I do free work for, but they also return the favor, and over
the years, I can say the scales are even. Whenever the scales get REALLY
uneven, it's time to reassess the relationship.

Here's a fourth one I learned really early as well-

When you give a friend a discount, make it very clear that your rate
is for them only.

I make from a catalog and have a firm price list.

I give friends the next-quantity-up discount and let them know that if
word gets out they go back to marked retail. I explain to them that this
is how I make my living and that I can't afford / am not willing to give
this pricing to strangers.

Bill