After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China. With
all this money going overseas to china, is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

Also, spent some time checking out Rockler's Pre Christmas sale, I noticed
most of what I was interested in was made in China. It also occurred to me
that other woodworking retailers offer the same products but under their
name. Is most of this stuff manufactured in China and their name stamped on
it? So you're really getting the samething only with different names?

Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA products
than say Rockler? And does anyone know of a list, broken down by category
of made in the USA products? Example: Tools, Furniture, Building products
etc.

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

Rich
--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

Economic is kinda complicated but one factor that you neglect to
mention is that American's have racheted up wages and benifits to the
point where jobs should go overseas where it's cheaper. Plus, those
folks incomes will rise and they'll start buying American products (one
of these days), thereby supporting our military, etc.



evodawg wrote:
After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China. With
all this money going overseas to china, is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

Also, spent some time checking out Rockler's Pre Christmas sale, I noticed
most of what I was interested in was made in China. It also occurred to me
that other woodworking retailers offer the same products but under their
name. Is most of this stuff manufactured in China and their name stamped on
it? So you're really getting the samething only with different names?

Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA products
than say Rockler? And does anyone know of a list, broken down by category
of made in the USA products? Example: Tools, Furniture, Building products
etc.

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

Rich
--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

evodawg (in oBilf.5062$H84.2414@trnddc04) said:

| Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
| politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
| Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this
| practice.

Not really a problem. At least some of the money will come back when
the Chinese use it to buy Wal-Mart, Lowes, Home Depot, Target,
K-Mart,...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Never Enough Money wrote:

Economic is kinda complicated but one factor that you neglect to
mention is that American's have racheted up wages and benifits to the
point where jobs should go overseas where it's cheaper. Plus, those
folks incomes will rise and they'll start buying American products (one
of these days), thereby supporting our military, etc.

And what products are you talking about? Living in the USA I'm having
trouble finding made in USA products, can't imagine folks in other
countries finding made in USA products.

--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

In article oBilf.5062$H84.2414@trnddc04,
evodawg wrote:

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

I am trying to locate an article, which I read a couple of months ago, about the
US having some navy vessels built in Chinese shipyards. I do recall that it was
from a source like AP or Reuters....

Hello,

Economic is kinda complicated but one factor that you neglect to
mention is that American's have racheted up wages and benifits to the
point where jobs should go overseas where it's cheaper. Plus, those
folks incomes will rise and they'll start buying American products (one
of these days), thereby supporting our military, etc.

And what products are you talking about? Living in the USA I'm having
trouble finding made in USA products, can't imagine folks in other
countries finding made in USA products.

Ho, do not worry, they will be product made in USA, the day were they get
paied $40 an hour and you get paid 20c ...

At least some of the money will come back when the Chinese use it to buy
Wal-Mart, Lowes, Home Depot, Target, K-Mart,.
If you had been to china, you would know that chineese do not shop at big
store (except for a small minority). They go to speciality shop and
negotiate for hours.... a fun thing to watch...

cyrille

"evodawg" wrote in message
newsBilf.5062$H84.2414@trnddc04...
After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China. With
all this money going overseas to china, is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

Also, spent some time checking out Rockler's Pre Christmas sale, I noticed
most of what I was interested in was made in China. It also occurred to me
that other woodworking retailers offer the same products but under their
name. Is most of this stuff manufactured in China and their name stamped
on
it? So you're really getting the samething only with different names?

Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA products
than say Rockler? And does anyone know of a list, broken down by category
of made in the USA products? Example: Tools, Furniture, Building products
etc.

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

Rich

What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

"Cyrille de Brébisson" writes:

At least some of the money will come back when the Chinese use it to buy
Wal-Mart, Lowes, Home Depot, Target, K-Mart,.
If you had been to china, you would know that chineese do not shop at big
store (except for a small minority). They go to speciality shop and
negotiate for hours.... a fun thing to watch...

Just because the Chinese don't shop at big box stores doesn't mean that
they wouldn't eventually buy one of the big box chanins as an investment.

They do have Super Walmarts in China. I have seen pictures and they look
almost identical to an American Super Walmart except the signs are in
Chinese.

Brian Elfert

Teamcasa wrote:


What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang
--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

"evodawg" wrote in message
Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA products
than say Rockler? And does anyone know of a list, broken down by category
of made in the USA products? Example: Tools, Furniture, Building products
etc.

Lee Valley marks some of their items if they are made in USA or Canada. Nice
touch.


Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

It will get worse. Pick up the current issue of Reader's Digest and read the
article about engineering students. China is cranking out 6X the US, Japan
2X. You can be sure they will be a serious world power in a few years.

I have been to China and discovered they are capitalist. So my
conclusion, they will maximize profit even if it means buying from the
US, or anybody else. That's the way capitalism should work.
Cyrille de Brébisson wrote:
Hello,

Economic is kinda complicated but one factor that you neglect to
mention is that American's have racheted up wages and benifits to the
point where jobs should go overseas where it's cheaper. Plus, those
folks incomes will rise and they'll start buying American products (one
of these days), thereby supporting our military, etc.

And what products are you talking about? Living in the USA I'm having
trouble finding made in USA products, can't imagine folks in other
countries finding made in USA products.

Ho, do not worry, they will be product made in USA, the day were they get
paied $40 an hour and you get paid 20c ...

At least some of the money will come back when the Chinese use it to buy
Wal-Mart, Lowes, Home Depot, Target, K-Mart,.
If you had been to china, you would know that chineese do not shop at big
store (except for a small minority). They go to speciality shop and
negotiate for hours.... a fun thing to watch...

cyrille

evodawg wrote:

And what products are you talking about? Living in the USA I'm having
trouble finding made in USA products, can't imagine folks in other
countries finding made in USA products.

China just ordered a bunch of Cessna 172's.

http://www.assemblymag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,6493,161438,00.html

What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang
--

Well at least you own US Made trucks. I completely agree with you on doing
all I can to avoid buying non-US made products. (As I type on my Sony Vaio
Laptop). The reality and difficulty of this practice sets in when shopping
for certain items. But when it comes to woodworking machine tools, all of
the major mfg'rs have the tools made in China.

Dave

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:37:52 -0800, Teamcasa wrote:
What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang

Well at least you own US Made trucks.

Does he? My dad's Ford, and my mom's Chevy, were both made in Canada.
I'd rather that, if a car is foreign-made, that it's honest about it,
instead of just looking like it's American.

Teamcasa wrote:
What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave
1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang
--

Well at least you own US Made trucks.

Doesn't Ford make a lot of trucks in Windsor, ON?

I had a 1985 E350 hi-cube that was Canadian made. It had a pretty maple
leaf decal proclaiming the place of manufacture on the windshield.

Barry

hello,

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1978 MG Midget and 1980 Porsche 911, Why? but I am european :-)

cyrille

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:37:52 -0800, Teamcasa wrote:
What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang

Well at least you own US Made trucks.

Does he? My dad's Ford, and my mom's Chevy, were both made in Canada.
I'd rather that, if a car is foreign-made, that it's honest about it,
instead of just looking like it's American.

I do know that most USA built cars/trucks have parts built in Mexico, Canada
and even Japan. Most are at least assembled in the US, some in Canada. I
know for a FACT my 69 Chevelle, parts and assembled in the US. I'm really
proud of this car, if your interested in seeing it I will post a pic on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

On 06/12/2005 11:01 AM, evodawg wrote:

Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA products
than say Rockler?

Um, Lee Valley is a Canadian company.

While I appreciate your right to your opinion, I'm wondering what your
solution is. Would you rather raise the price of products to the point you
can no longer afford them, or would you rather lower your wage so you can
make things at a competitive price? Personally, I don't see many people in
the US (or Canada, for that matter) clamouring for the $0.50/hour jobs
manufacturing goods like you're describing. Up here in this part of Canada,
it's hard to find someone to work in a fast-food store for $10/hour...

Anyway, none of that is probably relevent. But what the heck... Now that I
think about it, I'm really curious about how much of say, a $500 mitre saw,
goes to labour vs. material vs. profit (for all the different levels) etc.

As far as your question regarding supporting the Chinese military, I'd say
that it would be obvious that any money that goes overseas is supporting
foreign military (as well as social) programs in the destination countries,
and probably any trade partners of those countries. At least, for any
country that taxes business and people. And if you look at the trade
partners of that country as well, it doesn't take too many degrees of
separation before you're supporting things you'd rather not support, like
terrorism.

Of course, unless you can guarantee that any money you spend stays entirely
within your country, you end up supporting all these nasty things anyway.
For example, lets say someone starts up a manufacturing shop in your town
that churns out hand planes. They employ entirely local labour, so you feel
happy buying from them. Of course, the people they pay can only afford to
shop at WalMart (since they're competing, wage wise, with sweatshops in more
undesireable countries). So these people end up shelling out their
paychecks to these other countries anyway. All you've done is introduce one
more level of middleman between you and the undesireables.

Well, that's my lunchtime logic ramble for today!


--
Clint
"evodawg" wrote in message
newsBilf.5062$H84.2414@trnddc04...
After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China. With
all this money going overseas to china, is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

Also, spent some time checking out Rockler's Pre Christmas sale, I noticed
most of what I was interested in was made in China. It also occurred to me
that other woodworking retailers offer the same products but under their
name. Is most of this stuff manufactured in China and their name stamped
on
it? So you're really getting the samething only with different names?

Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA products
than say Rockler? And does anyone know of a list, broken down by category
of made in the USA products? Example: Tools, Furniture, Building products
etc.

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

Rich
--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

evodawg wrote:

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:37:52 -0800, Teamcasa wrote:
What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang

Well at least you own US Made trucks.

Does he? My dad's Ford, and my mom's Chevy, were both made in Canada.
I'd rather that, if a car is foreign-made, that it's honest about it,
instead of just looking like it's American.

I do know that most USA built cars/trucks have parts built in Mexico,
Canada and even Japan. Most are at least assembled in the US, some in
Canada. I know for a FACT my 69 Chevelle, parts and assembled in the US.
I'm really proud of this car, if your interested in seeing it I will post
a pic on alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

Your confusing built/made and assembled. Cars and trucks are very complex
and the final assembly line simply bolts together a few sub assemblies that
are shipped to that plant. That final assembly is only a very small part
of the picture when you count the amount of people it takes to make such a
complex product. Add in all the accounts, project manager, supplier
managers, designers, engineers, technical writers, managers, QA testers,
etc, etc, etc and you begin to realize that the home country of the maker
is where the most of the wages are paid. So even though Ford and GM may
assemble vehicles in other countries they are still doing more work in the
US than any of the few that are assembling their cars in the us and
claiming them as American made.

"Eugene Nine" wrote in message
Your confusing built/made and assembled. Cars and trucks are very complex
and the final assembly line simply bolts together a few sub assemblies
that
are shipped to that plant. That final assembly is only a very small part
of the picture when you count the amount of people it takes to make such a
complex product. Add in all the accounts, project manager, supplier
managers, designers, engineers, technical writers, managers, QA testers,
etc, etc, etc and you begin to realize that the home country of the maker
is where the most of the wages are paid. So even though Ford and GM may
assemble vehicles in other countries they are still doing more work in the
US than any of the few that are assembling their cars in the us and
claiming them as American made.

And many of the "foreign" makes have design, manufacturing, and assembly
facilities in the US. Some cars (maybe all?) list the percentage of parts
made in the US.

Eugene Nine wrote:
Add in all the accounts, project manager, supplier
managers, designers, engineers, technical writers, managers, QA testers,
etc, etc, etc and you begin to realize that the home country of the maker
is where the most of the wages are paid.

This isn't the whole picture though.

Consider something like the Mazda3/Ford Focus C-Max/Volvo S40/V50.

This is a joint venture where the cars were designed jointly and share
40% of the parts, the Focus will be built in Germany, the Volvos in
Belgium and the Mazda 3 in Japan.

Ford contributed metallurgy techniques and suspension tuning, Mazda
contributed engineering prowess and "zoom-zoom", and Volvo contributed
towards the safety aspects.

Do any of these vehicles count as "American"?

Chris

"evodawg" wrote in message
newsBilf.5062$H84.2414@trnddc04...
After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China. With
all this money going overseas to china, is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

Umm you do realize that the majority of the money spent on Chinese products
stays in the country that sells to the end user. There are a lot of
American middlemen and stores that make money off the sale. We as consumers
are not buying direct from China. And if you think trading with China is
scary, how about the Oil that we buy. We are actually at war with that
region right now. Thank the politicians that sell us out every day.
Until most Americans are willing to pay too much for a product it is likely
that more manufacturing will go to other countries. The consumer is not to
blame as he is applying what he has learned, getting the most for his money.
The American laborer needs to learn now how to compete and realize that most
anyone can do his quality of work with out government intervention.

"Clint" wrote in message
news:6vmlf.155654$yS6.120536@clgrps12...
While I appreciate your right to your opinion, I'm wondering what your
solution is. Would you rather raise the price of products to the point
you can no longer afford them, or would you rather lower your wage so you
can make things at a competitive price?
Of course, unless you can guarantee that any money you spend stays
entirely within your country, you end up supporting all these nasty things
anyway.

I surely don't know hte answer and we may not for another 20, 30, or 40
years. I don't see how our economy can survive with little more than casino
gambling and nursing homes.

We used to be able to sell technology, but other countries are catching up
or exceeding us in some areas. Medical care used to be a lock on the local
market, but now expensive elective surgery is being done in India.

"evodawg" wrote in message
newsWllf.1782$EB3.327@trnddc09...
Dave Hinz wrote:

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:37:52 -0800, Teamcasa wrote:
What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang

Well at least you own US Made trucks.

Does he? My dad's Ford, and my mom's Chevy, were both made in Canada.
I'd rather that, if a car is foreign-made, that it's honest about it,
instead of just looking like it's American.

I do know that most USA built cars/trucks have parts built in Mexico,
Canada
and even Japan. Most are at least assembled in the US, some in Canada. I
know for a FACT my 69 Chevelle, parts and assembled in the US. I'm really
proud of this car, if your interested in seeing it I will post a pic on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

Stick a shot up. I shoot old cars for part of my living, and find them
fascinating, though recently I've been working a little further back (most
recent a '58 Impala, oldest a '34 SS1 Jag).

evodawg wrote:
After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China. With
all this money going overseas to china, is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

As I general rule I try to avoid buying from mainland China. Generally
the quality is as low or as high as the price when it comes to Chinese
imports. On the high end of price the quality of Chinese imports is
comparable with similarily priced items made in the West. The big
difference is at the low end, their low end price goes a lot lower than
anyone else and there tends to be lower level floor to just how
****-poor the quality can get that even the cheapest Chinese imports
can't fall below. Like the $20 vise I just bought: the jaws don't close
parralell(sp) and the pop up dog is a joke but the jaws line up when
it's closed and serves my immediate needs and I'll retire within a year
I'm sure.

Anyway though quality issues aside I don't like sending money over
there because of more political reasons. I don't like the human rights
record of the chinese government, I don't like their illegal occupation
of Tibet, their attitude towards Taiwan and insert long list of why
the PRC is run by crooks I also view them as a future threat as great
or greater than the USSR was at the height of the Cold War. than So I
specifically avoid Chinese imports whenever possible.

For imports in general I have no issues buying non-US goods. I admit to
a slight bias towards US and Canadian goods, followed by European and
then any Western-style democracy after that, for my imports. So if
there's an Indian made product that meets my needs (functional and
financial) I'll buy it without loosing sleep.

snip
Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA products
than say Rockler? And does anyone know of a list, broken down by category
of made in the USA products? Example: Tools, Furniture, Building products
etc.

Lee Valley is a Canadian company. They flag US and Canadian items
online and in their print catalog and they do mention the source in
their write-ups for a lot of other items. They have a lot of NA and Old
World imports as well as Japanese and S. Korean and a few Chinese,
which aren't listed as such but it's a safe bet that anything just
labeled "imported" is Chinese.

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

I think of it as more of a security issue than anything else. Despite
increased economic freedoms over there the state still has a dirty
little finger in most business ventures, including (or especially)
those involving western companies setting up plants over there. So
there are issues of tech transfer to Chinese government and of directly
financing a potentially hostile regime by buying widgets from them.
While I'm not directly boycotting Chinese goods I'm willing to put
extra time and money into buying goods from elsewhere.

Cheers,

Josh

Charles Self wrote:


"evodawg" wrote in message
newsWllf.1782$EB3.327@trnddc09...
Dave Hinz wrote:

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:37:52 -0800, Teamcasa
wrote:
What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang

Well at least you own US Made trucks.

Does he? My dad's Ford, and my mom's Chevy, were both made in Canada.
I'd rather that, if a car is foreign-made, that it's honest about it,
instead of just looking like it's American.

I do know that most USA built cars/trucks have parts built in Mexico,
Canada
and even Japan. Most are at least assembled in the US, some in Canada. I
know for a FACT my 69 Chevelle, parts and assembled in the US. I'm really
proud of this car, if your interested in seeing it I will post a pic on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

Stick a shot up. I shoot old cars for part of my living, and find them
fascinating, though recently I've been working a little further back (most
recent a '58 Impala, oldest a '34 SS1 Jag).

Cool I grew up around, lets see my dad had XK120 and a XK140 the replica
that won le mans, I think it was a 55 not sure. All I knew was it was all
aluminum body and it had a sticker on the walnut dash that said so. He also
had a couple of XKE's 1966 4.2 coupe and my mom had the roaster all in
British Racing Green. I kinda went the other way with the muscle cars,
probably a rebellion thing. But I did love driving them in the back country
roads of NJ. When he got older and more successful he ended up with XJ6 for
luxury and a Ferrari 350gt for raising hell.

--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

B a r r y writes:
evodawg wrote:

And what products are you talking about? Living in the USA I'm having
trouble finding made in USA products, can't imagine folks in other
countries finding made in USA products.

China just ordered a bunch of Cessna 172's.

http://www.assemblymag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,6493,161438,00.html




They just ordered a bunch (160) of A-320's as well. That puts
airbus up by a couple of ten's on Boeing this year in china (but I think
world-wide, boeing's order book increased more this year than
Airbus); looks like b. will sell a record number of 777's this
year, most of them to south{east|west} asia.

evodawg wrote:

[snip]
Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

Rich

And take a look at who owns parts of our $8 trillion deficit (increasing
at $.5 trillion per year). Lots of Asian countries (including the PRC
at something like $800 billion, plus Japan, Singapore, others) and
mid-eastern countries (try Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc.) All that is
necessary to tank our economy is for one of these guys to start
unloading a bit of that debt at bargain prices. Possible? Absolutely.
Probable? I don't know but it's enough to make my sphincter clench up.
gloom,
jo4hn

Another point in case....
I bought and remodeled a 1965 Airstream this summer. What a joy to see
EVERYTHING on it was made in the USA, in fact most everything (including the
manufacturer) was made right here in Ohio. I know the mechanicals were well
built, as everything was original and still worked. Heck, the air
conditioner still blew cold air after 40 years! I did decide to replace
most things simply to save weight, space and to hopefully prevent anything
from breaking down while miles from home, but sadly very little new OEM
stuff around, so most everyhting is stamped "Made in China". However, all
the the cabinets I rebuilt still are *real* American walnut...I take comfort
in that at least.
On another note, I really enjoy reading older (70's and 80's) issues of
Fine Woodworking. It's kinda alarming when you really see how much was made
in the USA as little as 20-30 years ago. Imports were cheaper, knock-offs
and were boldly listed as "Imported". Back then "Made in the USA" was
common place. Today, "made in China" is common place, and the few things
made here have a big bold sticker you can't miss to tell you so. --dave

.."evodawg" wrote in message
newsWllf.1782$EB3.327@trnddc09...
Dave Hinz wrote:

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:37:52 -0800, Teamcasa wrote:
What kind of car/truck do you own?
Dave

1-F-250 pick up
3-F-350 Flatbeds
1-F-800 Telsta T-40 Bucket Truck
1 "69" Chevelle
1 05 Mustang

Well at least you own US Made trucks.

Does he? My dad's Ford, and my mom's Chevy, were both made in Canada.
I'd rather that, if a car is foreign-made, that it's honest about it,
instead of just looking like it's American.

I do know that most USA built cars/trucks have parts built in Mexico,
Canada
and even Japan. Most are at least assembled in the US, some in Canada. I
know for a FACT my 69 Chevelle, parts and assembled in the US. I'm really
proud of this car, if your interested in seeing it I will post a pic on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

Unfortunately the chinese government holds the yuan to dollar exchange
rate at a artificially low rate to keep the price of chinese good low,
and the price of american good high. Unless this exchange rate is
allowed to "float", the cash will continue to move to china. The
exchange rate was a big part of Bush's recent trip to china.

And don't think that the average chinese worker is the big beneficiary,
the government controls the economy and reaps the biggest rewards. How
else could the chinese government afford to buy Conoco oil.

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:01:24 GMT, evodawg
wrote:

After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China. With
all this money going overseas to china, is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Plop, Wrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Reel 'em in.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On 6 Dec 2005 08:10:17 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, "Never
Enough Money" quickly quoth:

Economic is kinda complicated but one factor that you neglect to
mention is that American's have racheted up wages and benifits to the
point where jobs should go overseas where it's cheaper. Plus, those
folks incomes will rise and they'll start buying American products (one
of these days), thereby supporting our military, etc.

You misspelled "American's Unions have ratcheted up wages...", Nem.


--
The Smart Person learns from his mistakes.
The Wise Person learns from the mistakes of others.
And then there are all the rest of us...
-----------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com -- Wisearse Website Design

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:07:17 -0500, Eugene Nine wrote:

Your confusing built/made and assembled. Cars and trucks are very complex
and the final assembly line simply bolts together a few sub assemblies that
are shipped to that plant. That final assembly is only a very small part
of the picture when you count the amount of people it takes to make such a
complex product. Add in all the accounts, project manager, supplier
managers, designers, engineers, technical writers, managers, QA testers,
etc, etc, etc and you begin to realize that the home country of the maker
is where the most of the wages are paid. So even though Ford and GM may
assemble vehicles in other countries they are still doing more work in the
US than any of the few that are assembling their cars in the us and
claiming them as American made.

In the nineties Clinton's trade negotiator, Mickey Kantor bashed the Japanese
for cheap Japanese imports. The Japanese and South Korea start building plants
in the USA and today, the Big two are selling fewer cars and even the ailing
Chrysler recovers under Mercedes Benz. We bashed the Chinese today and wondered
what installs for us in the near future.

..

evodawg said:

After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China.

At the risk of repeating comments and opinion I have expressed since
1995, you can bet that a portion of the money pouring into mainland
China IS being used for military buildup and engineering. And for the
acquisition of financial power as well. Buying up stumbling American
companies, with their names and reputations is de rigueur for most
foreign investors.

And as recently as, oh... say... Bush's visit last month, they have
openly declared that an autonomous Taiwan is currently being
"tolerated" by the current PRC government - barring a complete
make-over of the current government, it's only a matter of time before
an attempt to "re-integrate" Taiwan is made.

The Chinese name for the region is Zhongguo, which roughly translates
from Mandarin into "Center Country", and represents their view that
China stands at the center of that society's known world, surrounded
by menial tributary states.

Lest you perceive this as a slam against the Chinese people, it's not.
They are no different than the population of any nation - they want to
eat, be sheltered, and be free to live out their lives peacefully.

But China is a cesspool of pollution, oppression, and exploitation.
People argue that China will ultimately buy products from the US, but
it isn't likely. The government promotes internal policies that
promote the development of competing technologies, even if, and
especially for, for internal use. DVD formats, computer software are
two examples. As their abilities and capabilities evolve, they will
be producing their own cars, their own planes and their own military
weapons. Besides, what the hell do we make anymore?
The only thing China wants from the US is money - as much as possible.
When they do buy technology, it is to reverse engineer and copy.
They are the Apprentice who steals your tools and your customers.
China does not want to participate in a world economy, they want to
build an empire. "Patience, grasshopper. We've been around 8000
years, and can wait a few more..." Fraught by centuries of
vacillating Warlord and Imperialist rule, civil war and oppression,
China isn't likely to turn over a new leaf so easily. Those that
truly believe we aren't holding a tiger by the tail are fools, and
those that deny it are avaricious liars - IMHO.

There are those that argue that, in the long run, it doesn't matter
what the origin of a product: "Products are imported and sold, with
the majority of the profit being retained in the U.S."
The _rest_ of the sentence should include " - by the moneychangers."
The oft decried many-headed hydra of banking and money hoarders.

A pair of jeans manufactured in the USA cost $12.00 in 1995. They
were constructed of US made fabric and YKK zippers from Macon, Ga.
In 1998, the cost was $12.95 and they were imported from China.
The fabric, the zippers, and the seamster's labor. What's the
difference, you ask? The US goods are still going strong, and the
newer Chinese replacements have already fallen apart. This scenario
is realized every single day of my life. It is false economy. But...

The big-box retailer is now paying $3.20 per pair, instead of $6.85.
Did they give their employees pay raises or heath care coverage with
the added income? Hardly...

Do you honestly believe that monolithic corporations, now or ever, pay
their employees more, or treat them better, simply because they are
making more money on imported products? Hardly - in fact, quite the
opposite case can be made. As demonstrated by the incompetence
demonstrated by the employee involved in the Wal-Mart/GAF debacle.

Wait, I can hear you now: "He was an exception, an aberration. Most
managers are polite, competent, and interested in good public
relations." If you think this is true, I'd _really_ like to know what
universe you're living in.

Maybe if that mgr made more than $22,000 a year for a 10 hour a day,
6 day week job, he might adjust his attitude. Instead of constantly
thinking about some other pipe-dream job where he actually makes
enough money to feed and cloth the kids, pay taxes, pay for home heat
and the obligatory automobile - with it's additional rising costs of
fuel and insurance, tags, taxes, and maintenance - he might actually
concentrate on job performance. Those jobs are whipping posts (with
apologies to the Allman Brothers). Restaurants, retail, hotel
management - hmm... all jobs in the Service Industry - our big hope
for the economic future. Sure there are exceptions, those primarily
being exemplified by businesses that cater to the rich, but in
general, Service Economy jobs suck - plain and simple.

Is most of this stuff manufactured in China and their name stamped on
it? So you're really getting the samething only with different names?

Generally, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA products

Probably, and additionally, they mark the country of origin in their
catalog. That is one reason I shop there. I want to make my own
choices as to what products I purchase and where they originate.

For me, it's not as much a question of whether a product is imported
or not as it is one that begs to differentiate between whether a
product was produced by a civilized country that occupies a
responsible place at the table of world order. Does it provide it's
citizens a just and prosperous life, and do they compete with other
nations on a level playing field. China fails both of those criteria.

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

Uhh... it's been going on for at least a decade - you've just noticed?

ZZZZzzzzzzzz,,, click. Tick, tick, tick...

FWIW, JMHO, etc.


Greg G.

Greg writes:

But China is a cesspool of pollution, oppression, and exploitation.
People argue that China will ultimately buy products from the US, but
it isn't likely.

They may buy products from the US, but I don't expect them to be big
importers of finished gooods.

China is one of the companies that ignores patent laws. If they can
make a cheaper product that is an exact copy of a US product they will
do so.

The number 1 car in China is a copy of a GM car that is so accurate a
clone, it has the same bugs.


The labor is going overseas. Our technology is going overseas as
well. Our colleges are filled with students from other countries who
take our technology and use it in their countries.


US is turning into a country that provides services, and raw
materials, and not primarily a country exporting finished goods.

And most of the services we provide are available elsewhere for a
cheaper price.

We still have strength in the entertainment business, but companies
like Sony are trying to increase share there as well. Sony is not
doing well. The WSJ was talking about the CEO being ousted because
their last big hit movie was "Hitch," while they have
mega-blockbusters that flopped. And now this scandal with the Sony
Virus on the music CD's.

But the edge the US has in the global market is not that great.
College graduates are having a hard time finding jobs.
I'm concerned for the future of the US youth.


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

"Cyrille de Brébisson" wrote in message
...
hello,

Let me disagree with that, the consumer is to blame, because he knows that
by going for the short term profit, he is jeopardizing his long term
future, but he does not care. BTW, this is a symptom of psychopath!

Well I have to disagree back. ;~) The consumer cares nothing about profit.
Profit is a monitary term that business cares about. If the consumer was
getting such a raw deal the trend of his purchases would turn back to
another source. Just because an expensive item lasts longer does not mean
that this is a good purchase for the consumer. The consumer is more
concerned with how a product may benefit him which may in some cases lead to
more profit down the road if the product is bought for business purposes.



the problem is not as much that the American laborer needs to learn how to
compete, but that the American citizen need to quadruple at least what he
pays for stuff (relative to income), and therefore greatly reducing his
lifestyle, and this is hard to do...

The laboror learning how to compete and earn a reasonable wage for what he
does is by far more doable than trying to convence the customer to pay 4
times the price for the same or less quality.


BTW, I was reading last week that if everyone on earth was consuming like
the average American, it would take 5.8 earth to support mankind.

I totally agree, and yet the American businesses are loosing their share of
the production market. They need to learn to compete. There is plenty of
business out there to be had.

You are looking at too small a slice of the pie. International trade is
here to stay, and a huge amount of the US economy benefits. If we walled
off out economy, and only allowed selling and buying of items with 100%
domestic content, the following crash would dwarf the great depression. So
get over it.

No doubt you will want to research this so you can move on from opinionated
to informed. A good starting point is: http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/di1.htm.
I used to assign my students, when they had to miss a lab and there was not
an opportunity for a make-up, to take a product they use, like shampoo, and
look at the list of ingredients and look them up to see what the real
chemical compound is, and what function it performs in the product. I don't
think anyone ever deliberately missed lab so they could do the product
lookup, but they enjoyed the task and almost always did a good job. You can
do the equivalent. Pick a product you use, preferably something complex,
like your audio system. Research what it is made of and how it is
distributed, sold and serviced. What would you have left if we withdrew
from international trade?

Have fun. Grading will be pass/fail.

Steve

"Clint" wrote in message
news:6vmlf.155654$yS6.120536@clgrps12...
While I appreciate your right to your opinion, I'm wondering what your
solution is. Would you rather raise the price of products to the point
you can no longer afford them, or would you rather lower your wage so you
can make things at a competitive price? Personally, I don't see many
people in the US (or Canada, for that matter) clamouring for the
$0.50/hour jobs manufacturing goods like you're describing. Up here in
this part of Canada, it's hard to find someone to work in a fast-food
store for $10/hour...

Anyway, none of that is probably relevent. But what the heck... Now that
I think about it, I'm really curious about how much of say, a $500 mitre
saw, goes to labour vs. material vs. profit (for all the different levels)
etc.

As far as your question regarding supporting the Chinese military, I'd say
that it would be obvious that any money that goes overseas is supporting
foreign military (as well as social) programs in the destination
countries, and probably any trade partners of those countries. At least,
for any country that taxes business and people. And if you look at the
trade partners of that country as well, it doesn't take too many degrees
of separation before you're supporting things you'd rather not support,
like terrorism.

Of course, unless you can guarantee that any money you spend stays
entirely within your country, you end up supporting all these nasty things
anyway. For example, lets say someone starts up a manufacturing shop in
your town that churns out hand planes. They employ entirely local labour,
so you feel happy buying from them. Of course, the people they pay can
only afford to shop at WalMart (since they're competing, wage wise, with
sweatshops in more undesireable countries). So these people end up
shelling out their paychecks to these other countries anyway. All you've
done is introduce one more level of middleman between you and the
undesireables.

Well, that's my lunchtime logic ramble for today!


--
Clint
"evodawg" wrote in message
newsBilf.5062$H84.2414@trnddc04...
After spending sometime shopping this weekend, (which I hate) I'm finding
out that nothing is made in the USA anymore. Most is made in China. With
all this money going overseas to china, is there a chance we could be
supporting the Chinease Military? Scary thought.

Also, spent some time checking out Rockler's Pre Christmas sale, I
noticed
most of what I was interested in was made in China. It also occurred to
me
that other woodworking retailers offer the same products but under their
name. Is most of this stuff manufactured in China and their name stamped
on
it? So you're really getting the samething only with different names?

Does Lee Valley or others as an example sell more made in the USA
products
than say Rockler? And does anyone know of a list, broken down by category
of made in the USA products? Example: Tools, Furniture, Building products
etc.

Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.

Rich
--
"you can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

hello,

The consumer is not to blame as he is applying what he has learned,
getting the most for his money. The American laborer needs to learn now
how to compete and realize that most anyone can do his quality of work
with out government intervention.

Let me disagree with that, the consumer is to blame, because he knows that
by going for the short term profit, he is jeopardizing his long term future,
but he does not care. BTW, this is a symptom of psychopath!

the problem is not as much that the American laborer needs to learn how to
compete, but that the American citizen need to quadruple at least what he
pays for stuff (relative to income), and therefore greatly reducing his
lifestyle, and this is hard to do...

BTW, I was reading last week that if everyone on earth was consuming like
the average American, it would take 5.8 earth to support mankind.

regards, cyrille

hello,

As I general rule I try to avoid buying from mainland China. Generally
the quality is as low or as high as the price when it comes to Chinese
imports. On the high end of price the quality of Chinese imports is
comparable with similarily priced items made in the West. The big
difference is at the low end, their low end price goes a lot lower than
anyone else and there tends to be lower level floor to just how
****-poor the quality can get that even the cheapest Chinese imports
can't fall below. Like the $20 vise I just bought: the jaws don't close
parralell(sp) and the pop up dog is a joke but the jaws line up when
it's closed and serves my immediate needs and I'll retire within a year
I'm sure.
remember, the quality is low because the US company who request, and specify
the goods only care about pricing and not quality. and they do that because
the customer care more about price than quality...
it's customer driven, and it is that way because, we, as customer WANT
MORE!!!


Just a little concerned about all this $$$$ going to China and our
politicians and retail manufactures promoting this idea. Is National
Security an issue? Not to mention all the jobs lost to this practice.
a lot of that money is then re-invested in the US (in stock, and most
noticeably in government bonds and real estate), which is in fact a buy out
of Americas future. China holds your social security check :-)
what this means is that by buying so much Chinese good, you sell to china
the land you reside in, it's wealth, and your children's.

regards, cyrille