My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:23:47 -0700, charlie b
wrote:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

Very similar to your answer, except I'd add this as well. I know that
a lot of things I would like to have just aren't around for any price-
and while it may be possible to hire an artisan or furniture maker to
make them for me, it seems foolish to leave the execution of something
I've got in mind to someone who may see it from a different
perspective, and create something different than I wanted.

So much of the world seems to be mass-produced and disposable these
days, it's nice to think that I've got unique items furnishing my
home. While they may not be quite as nice as some high-end gallery
quality stuff, everything I've made has been better than it's
equivilant at the places I can afford to shop- and I know that I'm not
going to see a carbon-copy of it in someone else's home.

Barring some unforseen accident, I don't intend to give up at it- and
god willing, I've got another 50 years or better to gain experience
and skill. Hopefully I'll be good enough someday to leave carefully
protected heirlooms for posterity that people will protect and enjoy
when I'm gone. It seems like a good legacy to me.

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:23:47 -0700, charlie b
wrote:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

Being skint and nailing 2x4s together will achieve that much.


I seem to have got to the point where I can make furniture that no-one
can afford. In a world where Ikea will sell you a perfectly functional
table, how many people are there left who are prepared to pay for
anything better than MDF ?

I can make the stuff, and I've got any number of people who want it. But
as for _paying_ a sensible rate for hand-work (which is inevitably
slower and more skilled than factory, even for modest quality) then
where's the market gone? Who _wants_ a table they can leave to their
grandchildren, when the current fashion is to paint it pink because
that's what Changing Rooms told you to do this week, then throw it away
the week after.

I can see a future not too far away, where the only people with really
good _new_ furniture are those who are building it themselves, or being
given it as gifts from the makers. Quality just isn't part of commerce
these days.

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:23:47 -0700, charlie b
wrote:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b
========================
Well I have been "shooting" now for close to 40 years.. and to be very
honest I have hit the bulls eye almost all the time...

My aim has always been to relax, and to improve my work...

Never built anything to save money... but have build a lot of
furniture that I needed ...but I did it for enjoyment...

Bob G.

I have no knowledge of the economy in the area where you live, but there are
a LOT of people will to pay a LOT for truly wonderful, custom
furniture/cabinetry.

I have a buddy that decided to take the plunge from being a highly
successful computer engineer (i.e. making $100K+ per year salary) to being a
full-time woodworker for hire. His net income (the amount he pays himself,
not the amount the business get's) is abour $140K. This is only his 4th
year of doing this and he has work booke with 6-9 month waits, and people
don't mind.

I'm no pro - far from it. But I've done the odd job for money here and
there, and made a fair bit on those jobs. And they weren't anything
special, to say the least.

I think what a lot of woodworkers forget when they try to sell their work is
that they have to target a specific market segment, clearly define their
"ideal customer" and then SELL to those people. They can't make a
museum-quality armoire that took them 500 hours to make, and then HOPE they
find someone with $25K to spend. They need to find the customer FIRST. And
if they can't? They need to change their business model and either make
something else, or search harder for those customers.

You hit it on the head, Andy, in one respect. The people that will go and
buy stuff at IKEA are NOT the one's you will sell to (and, I might add,
aren't the ones you WANT to sell to). The money is there to be made, you
just have to get your message out to the right people: marketing is key.

I don't know anything about Tom Watson's business model, but if you ever
looked at his website and the things he made when he was a pro
cabinetmaker - I bet you will get an idea of how that kind of business
works. And then look at Tom Plamann. 'Nuf said.

Sucks that it isn't just about being really skilled at making furniture, but
alas.

Mike


"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:23:47 -0700, charlie b
wrote:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

Being skint and nailing 2x4s together will achieve that much.


I seem to have got to the point where I can make furniture that no-one
can afford. In a world where Ikea will sell you a perfectly functional
table, how many people are there left who are prepared to pay for
anything better than MDF ?

I can make the stuff, and I've got any number of people who want it. But
as for _paying_ a sensible rate for hand-work (which is inevitably
slower and more skilled than factory, even for modest quality) then
where's the market gone? Who _wants_ a table they can leave to their
grandchildren, when the current fashion is to paint it pink because
that's what Changing Rooms told you to do this week, then throw it away
the week after.

I can see a future not too far away, where the only people with really
good _new_ furniture are those who are building it themselves, or being
given it as gifts from the makers. Quality just isn't part of commerce
these days.

Building furniture for myself and friends from lumber milled from my own
trees...its all good!

Schroeder



What're you shooting for?

charlie b

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:23:47 -0700, charlie b wrote:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b

well, my goals seem to change a lot, Charlie...
They used to be things like "learn to build cheap stuff that we can't afford to
buy"..
Evolved into "if I had the tools, I could build nice stuff..

I got back into woodworking when my wife started law school, figuring that since
she was going to be either busy or sleeping 24/7, I could spend a lot of
guilt-free time in the shop..

My original goal was pretty clear.. to improve my knowledge and skill, and
eventually make very nice jewelry boxes for the wife and friends... with a sort
of "maybe goal" of building things like china cabinets, display cases, etc...

After about 4 months of building shelves, cabinets and drawers for the shop, I
got side tracked into wood turning in a big way..
My wife has been almost too encouraging, probably because this keeps me home and
sober, and has just bought me my 2nd lathe. well, 3rd, if you could my trusty
old shopsmith..

I still have the goal of fine woodworking some day, but my present goal is to
improve my turning and finishing skills as much as possible, as long as it's
fun... I sell a few things, but that's not the reason that I work wood...
So far, I've spent at least 4 of every seven evenings in the shop, have a few
hundred turnings and not only have not burned out, but still want more time to
turn..

BTW: I have a lot more patience and drive to do things right in my late 50's
than I did in my late 20's/early 30's....
When I worked wood before, I would either skip a step or "mickey mouse"
something to get it finished quickly... now, I'm at the age where I can not only
hear the phrase "it's not the destination, it's the journey", but I can know the
difference and enjoy the journey..



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b
I work with my great-grandfather's tools - they are all hand tools that do
not use electricity. I also have his forge and metalworking tools. I
don't use the tools just to be different than, say, the people who shop at
Lowe's. I genuinely enjoy working with human powered tools. When I use the
tools I somehow feel connected to earlier generations of woodworkers and the
escape from the busy everyday overworked modern life helps me keep
balanced - it's like finding new meanings in old familiar poem. My goal
is to keep enjoying using old tools, learning some more techniques, and
making things.

Xopher

"charlie b" wrote in message

What're you shooting for?

charlie b

Just to enjoy what I'm doing. So far, I've succeeded. I like to improve my
skills and try new methods. I make things either I want, my wife wants, or
I can give to a friend that would appreciate the item. I'm careful to keep
it a hobby, not a job as I already have a good job. I did accept payment
for material on a bench I made for a friend but even that was after the
fact.

Some day I'd like to build that museum quality piece. Woodworking has taught
me patience (maybe age is a factor also) and the sense of accomplishment is
very good also. If it stops being fun, it is time for a new hobby.
Ed

charlie b wrote:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b

To be able to afford what Tom Plamnn can buy?

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Remove -SPAM- to send email)

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.
(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)
What're you shooting for?
charlie b


For me it is the exact same, however as much by hand as possible. No table
saw, no elecric jointer or thicknesser. But I do have a mini band saw and a
mini drill press, an electric hand Skil-drill, and a Makita palm sander and an
old Rockwell 1/2 sheet sander.

"Minimal-izm" maybe... but I love the old ways of woodworking at heart.
Chisels, hand planes, hand saws, surforms, rasps, braces and handcrank drills,
clamps and a woodworkers bench, and so forth. The hardest part are the old
molding planes (side beaders?) for doing the original work that electric
routers replaced, such as knowing how to choose, use and sharpen them and
making my own blades succesfully. I bought an old skew blade dado plane
with a laminated blade, has no hardness and grinds down like chalk when
sharpening. Rediculous.

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

In article , says...
My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

What're you shooting for?

Finishing a major project without getting my blood on it :-).

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

charlie b wrote:
My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.


Now you know why I'm building a boat.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
charlie b wrote:
My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.


Now you know why I'm building a boat.

Lew

Lew,

When I first started reading this n.g. several years ago you were in
the process of building your, iirc, "bullet proof boat." I take it
from the tense of your above statement that that project is still
'in-process.' Wow, that gives me hope that some of my long-going
projects might eventually be completed.

Regards,
Mike

Mike wrote:

Lew,

When I first started reading this n.g. several years ago you were in
the process of building your, iirc, "bullet proof boat." I take it
from the tense of your above statement that that project is still
'in-process.' Wow, that gives me hope that some of my long-going
projects might eventually be completed.


Building a boat is lot like wrasslin a bear.

As long as the bear wants to wrestle, you wrestle.

Building a boat, you are never done, but every day when you leave the
boat yard, something is finished that wasn't finished when you got there.

Lew

charlie b wrote in news:429FE963.4C15
@accesscom.com:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)


You're right. Tom Plamann has made furniture I cannot afford to buy.

Patriarch

charlie b wrote in news:429FE963.4C15
@accesscom.com:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b

It started out as sawdust therapy. One place where I could not be
reached by cell phone, because I could turn it off without guilt for
safety reasons.

And to have something, anything, tangible, to show for the planning,
learning, struggle and fight that was my life at the time. I've at
least temporarily cured the career induced problems.

My wife & I are discussing telling the corporate world that it can do
without us, that with our children raised and their educations paid for,
and our parents at least fairly well settled into their later years,
that it's time to do the artsy, studio-types of things we postponed 30+
years ago in order to have a home and responsibly raise a family. The
business plan is taking shape, I'm getting sufficient confidence in a
focused area of endeavor, and have put together some network of
resources to show, market and install the types of things I can
economically make in a semi-customised manner.

And then I'll still do a few exploratory pieces, just for my own
enjoyment.

But it's nice to have recovered at least some of my former good nature.

Patriarch,
who owes most of it to sawdust...

On 3 Jun 2005 17:47:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

When I first started reading this n.g. several years ago you were in
the process of building your, iirc, "bullet proof boat."

Building boats is quicker and _far_ cheaper than maintaining them once
afloat.

Ask any boat owner. The amount it costs to look after it is more than
they expected, in rough proportion to the reduction in the time they
actually get to use it compared to expectations.

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:34:02 GMT, "Mike in Mystic"
wrote:

I have no knowledge of the economy in the area where you live, but there are
a LOT of people will to pay a LOT for truly wonderful, custom
furniture/cabinetry.

Sadly the current distribution of income seems to favour those with
absolutely no taste! A bureau made from recycled railway sleepers
(ties) still with the creosote on them and sprayed with lacquer just to
keep the smell in ?

I have a buddy that decided to take the plunge from being a highly
successful computer engineer (i.e. making $100K+ per year salary) to being a
full-time woodworker for hire.

Woodworker or furniture maker ? Things are a lot better for on-site
work. If you're buying a competent tradesman by the hour, then you're
paying a decent rate for it and there's generally little argument over
the time spent and the amount owed. The problem is the invisible work in
the workshop - how can any piece of furntiture possibly take more than
an hour to make, when Ikea will sell you one for an hour or two's
income?

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 03:37:29 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Mike wrote:

Lew,

When I first started reading this n.g. several years ago you were in
the process of building your, iirc, "bullet proof boat." I take it
from the tense of your above statement that that project is still
'in-process.' Wow, that gives me hope that some of my long-going
projects might eventually be completed.


Building a boat is lot like wrasslin a bear.

As long as the bear wants to wrestle, you wrestle.

Building a boat, you are never done, but every day when you leave the
boat yard, something is finished that wasn't finished when you got there.

Reminds me of that Steinbeck novel "Tortilla Flat", where the guy was
building the perfect boat on shore, and never got it sailing because
he was afraid of the water...

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:45:44 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:

On 3 Jun 2005 17:47:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

When I first started reading this n.g. several years ago you were in
the process of building your, iirc, "bullet proof boat."

Building boats is quicker and _far_ cheaper than maintaining them once
afloat.

Ask any boat owner. The amount it costs to look after it is more than
they expected, in rough proportion to the reduction in the time they
actually get to use it compared to expectations.

recreational boat: hole in the water designed to pour money into. DAMHIK


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:49:48 -0400, no(SPAM)vasys wrote:


To be able to afford what Tom Plamnn can buy?

To --sell-- to Tom Plamann for his personal use and for far more than he
intended to pay.

In article ,
charlie b wrote:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b

When I hit 50, I took aim at winding down my workaholic lifestyle.
Workshop and workers to the left, customers and the regulation (tax,
safety, workman's comp, insurance, bankers, accountants, suppliers and
weasels) to the right...and Rob in the middle. A continuous act of
putting out fires, starting new ones and always running into-and setting
deadlines. I hadn't turned on a piece of equipment on in a few years.
That corporate treadmill already cost me two marriages and I was burnt
out and freshly divorced. I had it up to here with the bull****. Sad
part was... nobody to blame. I couldn't even take a vacation without my
cell/satellite/internet connections. Even a 10,000 mile trip in 1999 to
Australia wasn't far enough from the rat-race.

But it was on the way back from the Great Ocean Road through the Otways
rain-forest in a pub in the town of Forest, that I had a few pints with
a few locals that it sank in. I actually caught myself relaxing... what
the hell.. my plane wasn't leaving for another 2 weeks...
When I came back to Canada, I set the wheels in motion to liquidate my
assets to start all over. I had to cut clean. Sept 2003 I went out the
laneway from the shop and retired.... well... semiretired.
My new lady-friend at the time made the effort to show me around her
province, The Cabot Trail, seafood, beer and people similar to those I
met in Oz.
Laid back. Many people come by it naturally. I had to acquire the skill
of being laid back. Piddling around in my garage/workshop (then empty)
allowed me to think. I LIKED working with my hands, using my head. I
could whip up a solid surface countertop in my sleep... the money is
good.. so I decided to fund the growth of a woodworking shop entirely
from the proceeds of my solid surface sales. So far so good.
30 years of millwork experience on all levels has left me with enough
experience not to do foolish things.
I do continue to slap myself when I ohh-and-ahhhed at that General
24"(?) Heavy Duty Industrial planer with the serrated feedrollers that
David Eisen at Federated Tools showed me a few days ago...

Perspective and therapy.... and a project plan. What to build first?
I'm working on a new cherry headboard, then what? Was thinking about
Harley Davidson rocking horses..there are no plans I like, so I'm
drawing away.. I could easily make a 100 of those and make some money
*SLAP*

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:34:02 GMT, "Mike in Mystic"
wrote:



I don't know anything about Tom Watson's business model, but if you ever
looked at his website and the things he made when he was a pro
cabinetmaker - I bet you will get an idea of how that kind of business
works. And then look at Tom Plamann. 'Nuf said.

Sucks that it isn't just about being really skilled at making furniture, but
alas.

Mike


I was only able to make nice stuff because I lived in an area with a
lot of wealthy people in it. The Main Line area contains several of
the richest zip codes in the country.

For the last fifteen years that I was in business I never worked in a
house that was worth less than a million dollars and most of them were
in the three to seven million range.

The work you can do is driven by the market that is available to you.

My business model, if you could call it such, was simple.

I wanted to do all the work, including marketing, designing, selling
and producing. I wanted to have a life that didn't take a lot of
money to run. I didn't want employees.

The marketing was done by getting to know which builders and
architects were involved in my target market. A letter of inquiry,
followed by a visit with portfolio in hand was the next step. Most
cautious builders and architects will try you out on a smallish
project, which I would discount until I was running close to cost.

Once you're in, if you are a one man shop, you have to find a way to
handle all the work that a busy design/build firm can throw at you.
If you can't they'll start looking for someone else.

Since I wanted to be a hands on sole proprietor, this problem could
get dicey.

Eventually, I found that I was better off not trying to handle all the
needs of a company and started to solicit only special projects,
allowing a lot of the bread and butter work to go to others.

Towards the end I was only doing word of mouth work for individual
homeowners - because that was all that I could handle.

Had I been interested in growing a business, this would have been
insane, but that isn't what I wanted.

I knew too many guys who had started out as good mechanics and wound
up growing a business monster that needed constant feeding. They
spent too much of their time trying to feed the monster.

The design work started out as a necessary chore but became one of my
favorite parts of the business. I learned it on the fly by stealing
bits and pieces of the good drawings that I would get from architects
and designers. Later I spent a good deal of time reading and studying
designs from the classical era on.

My area has a lot of people who want a very traditional look in their
homes. On the other end of the scale are those who want only modern
stuff. I happened to get typecast as one of the traditional guys,
which was partly a result of the market and partly that of personal
temperament. It is almost always the case that a shop will get known
for a particular kind of work and this becomes their niche.

When you have a niche and the beginnings of a repeating client base,
you are really in business.

When I would begin to get a little bored with another run of base
units and bookcases, with the same details as the last few projects, I
would try to find a job where the customer would let me play a little
bit.

I did a lot of design drawing that went into overhead but wound up
paying off in sales. Sometimes I would like the design so much that I
would sharpen my pencil enough to get the price to where the customer
would have been crazy not to take the deal.

Oddly enough, these jobs often wound up being very profitable because
they would lead to additional work - at better margins.

I don't know what to say about selling. I often thought that
customers felt comfortable with me because we had similar educational
and cultural backgrounds. I think a lot of them thought of me as a
charming anachronism - a hippie carpenter who never went corporate.

On the production side, I wanted to take everything from rough lumber
to finish and installation. Eventually I made certain compromises and
would buy out prefinished doors, drawer fronts and door boxes, if the
time demands were too great. When I realized how I was being taken
away from my vision of what I wanted to do, I slowed down and started
making it all myself again.

Once I turned fifty I started to have a number of physical problems
with things like bad knees, a chancy back and a good bit of arthritis
here and there.

I knew that I had to back off on the work load and was gearing up to
turn the business into a pure one off furniture shop, with a mix of
items that would be built on spec, mixed in with commissioned work.
I was hoping to do a fifty fifty split between the two, with an idea
of growing the spec business to a point where I was well enough known
that I could increase my margins and reduce my hours on the shop
floor.

A visit to the doctor, who said that I was looking at twin knee
replacements within a short time, if I didn't get off my feet,
convinced me to get off the shop floor.

Most guys that I know who have small shops work about sixty to seventy
five hours a week. About fifty or sixty of that is spent on the shop
floor.

Now I spend about forty to fifty hours a week, mostly at a computer,
or dealing with client contact, with some visits to the production
facilities to see how things are going. I have better health
benefits, a better retirement program and make more money than I did
in most years of running the shop.

Had I decided to make my one man shop into an actual business, I would
have had to mortgage the house, move out of the 1200 sq footer that
I'm in, into larger quarters, buy different equipment, hire people (a
very difficult problem), and spend all of my waking hours running a
business.

I decided to go help run a little piece of someone else's business.

The cool thing is that I get to make whatever the hell I want now - as
soon as I finish the exterior trim on the house, the painting, the new
fence, refinish the hardwood floors, plumb the new bathroom, etc. -
which I never had time to do when I was working for myself.

As JOAT often remarks, "Life is basically good."

If you want to work with your hands, as I did - I think that's great -
but remember that you will age and that you might not always be able
to do what is easy for you to do today.

If you are any good, it is actually pretty easy to grow a business -
what is hard is not having it grow to overtake your whole life.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

"Tom Watson" wrote in message


Much very good information snipped
If you are any good, it is actually pretty easy to grow a business -
what is hard is not having it grow to overtake your whole life.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker

Thanks for the story, Tom. It is nice to like your work as much as you did.
Your last comment shows a lot of wisdom.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:23:47 -0700, charlie b
wrote:

My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b


"All I wanna do is have some fun

And I get the feeling

I'm not the only one..."

(apologies to Ms. Crow)


I want to take all of the elements of the furniture that I have seen
over the last many years and synthesize them into a few pieces that
reflect the history of those items that I respect the most - and give
these pieces away to the people that I love - in the hope that they
will keep them and treasure them forever.

I want to build the most perfect tall case clock, that has a
traditional look and feel but is unique in its design to a degree that
it can't be thought of as a copy - and I want the person I give it to
keep it forever.

I want to learn to carve as well and as sweetly as Mike Hide does.

I want to build a modified version of the classic knee hole Goddard
Townsend Desks, to be used as night tables in my bedroom.

I want to develop the pleasant personality of Norm, the phlegmatic
approach to the work of Dave Marks and the apparent insensitivity to
pain of Roy Underhill.

I want my son to get tall enough so that he can work at the tablesaw
without fear that a kickback would take his head off.

I want to make a cherry tall chest with a crotch figure for the doors
- that I am still searching for.

I hope that I don't die before I get to build my Herreshoff skiff.

I've recently come to want to build a new version of my old
carpenter's tote box, with nice wood and joinery, well above its
station, to give to my son as a twelfth birthday present (he's eight -
there is still time).

I want to live long enough to see the wooddorking magazines back off
of the 'how to do' stuff and allow a little room for the poetry of
wooddorking.

I want Tommy Plamman's new shop.

I want to learn how to turn wood so thin that you can damned near read
a newspaper through it.

I want to sell my Leigh and be able to see well enough to sharpen my
dovetail saws.

I want Keeter and O'Deen to come back to the Wreck.

I wish that I was twenty five again, so that I could do everything
over that I have already done.


As Momma used to say, "If wishes were horses - beggars would ride."


Still, it's the wishing and the wanting that keeps us moving forward
and, like our cartilaginous cousins, the sharks, if'n we stop moving
forward - we sink to the bottom and die.




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

Still, it's the wishing and the wanting that keeps us moving forward
and, like our cartilaginous cousins, the sharks, if'n we stop moving
forward - we sink to the bottom and die.

Nice list, Tom.

I just want to build a piece that doesn't have some stupid mistake that
I pray nobody sees.

;-)

djb

--
~ Stay Calm... Be Brave... Wait for the Signs ~
------------------------------------------------------
One site: http://www.balderstone.ca
The other site, with ww linkshttp://www.woodenwabbits.com

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:14:44 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

Still, it's the wishing and the wanting that keeps us moving forward
and, like our cartilaginous cousins, the sharks, if'n we stop moving
forward - we sink to the bottom and die.

Nice list, Tom.

I just want to build a piece that doesn't have some stupid mistake that
I pray nobody sees.

;-)

djb


Thanks for the kind words, Dave.

As to the wish for perfection -

I've adopted a modified version of the concept of The Persian Flaw.

As it was related to me, Persian rug makers, although capable of
creating a perfect rug, would include an intended flaw, so as not to
give offence to The Only Perfect Being.

I call my implementation a modified version because I know damned well
that I have not and probably never will produce a flawless piece - yet
I take succor from the humility expressed by those more capable.

You may notice that I used the word, "probably" - I haven't quite
given up yet.




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Subject AKA Operating your own business.

I am reminded of a fraternity brother of mine who one day, quit his job,
borrowed $5K and started a consulting engineering business that over the
next 10 years made a ton of money.

Along came CAD, he didn't choose to invest, began losing customers, and
ultimately closed the business.

We were having lunch one day and I asked him why he closed the business.

His answer was a classic, IMHO.

I got sick and tired of having to go to the bathroom and hold
everybody's wiener every time they wanted to take a leak.

I understood.

Lew

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:26:52 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Tom Watson" wrote in message


Much very good information snipped
If you are any good, it is actually pretty easy to grow a business -
what is hard is not having it grow to overtake your whole life.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker

Thanks for the story, Tom. It is nice to like your work as much as you did.
Your last comment shows a lot of wisdom.


Thanks Edwin - Wouldn't it be nice if wisdom would grow on the one
plate of the scale without us having to balance it with life's lumps
on the other?



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

As to the wish for perfection -

I've adopted a modified version of the concept of The Persian Flaw.

As it was related to me, Persian rug makers, although capable of
creating a perfect rug, would include an intended flaw, so as not to
give offence to The Only Perfect Being.

I call my implementation a modified version because I know damned well
that I have not and probably never will produce a flawless piece - yet
I take succor from the humility expressed by those more capable.

You may notice that I used the word, "probably" - I haven't quite
given up yet.

I did say "stupid" mistake.

;-)

Some years back I had a copy of the "Monty Python Bok", actually, the
"Paper Bok" 'cause it was in softcover. One of the pages in the "Bok"
announced:

"Find the Deliferate Mistale!

Yes, somewhere on this page, there is a deliferate mistale!..."

etc.

The deliferate mistale. That's what I aspire to.

--
~ Stay Calm... Be Brave... Wait for the Signs ~
------------------------------------------------------
One site: http://www.balderstone.ca
The other site, with ww linkshttp://www.woodenwabbits.com

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:40:10 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Subject AKA Operating your own business.

I am reminded of a fraternity brother of mine who one day, quit his job,
borrowed $5K and started a consulting engineering business that over the
next 10 years made a ton of money.

Along came CAD, he didn't choose to invest, began losing customers, and
ultimately closed the business.

We were having lunch one day and I asked him why he closed the business.

His answer was a classic, IMHO.

I got sick and tired of having to go to the bathroom and hold
everybody's wiener every time they wanted to take a leak.

I understood.

Lew


Hiring good people is the hardest thing that you can do in a business
- as far as I know.

I got out of the construction business, which I was doing pretty well
in, to go into the shop and work by myself. I was real tired of the
people problems.

Swingman seems to have a handle on it and maybe he'll chime in. Seems
like he just builds a little bit each year and keeps some time out to
do those things that he enjoys.

He must have damned good subs that he's worked with for a good bit of
time.

A buddy of mine always says, "Hell, the making is easy - it's the
people that make it hard."



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:44:48 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:


The deliferate mistale. That's what I aspire to.


I think that all mistakes are stupid.

I can't recall one mistake (in or out of wooddorking) that I couldn't
have avoided.

Regarding Those Pythons:

I rented this day copies of The Holy Grail and The Life Of Brian to
spring on my unsuspecting thirteen year old daughter.

Some might call this an attempt at the transmittal of culture.

I actually just wanted to give her a case of the Sillies.




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 3 Jun 2005 17:47:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

When I first started reading this n.g. several years ago you were in
the process of building your, iirc, "bullet proof boat."

Building boats is quicker and _far_ cheaper than maintaining them once
afloat.

Ask any boat owner. The amount it costs to look after it is more than
they expected, in rough proportion to the reduction in the time they
actually get to use it compared to expectations.

For some, buying a boat is the two happiest days of their lives; the day
they bought it and the day they sold it.

Gary

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:56:18 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:40:10 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

I got sick and tired of having to go to the bathroom and hold
everybody's wiener every time they wanted to take a leak.

I understood.

Lew


Hiring good people is the hardest thing that you can do in a business
- as far as I know.

That was my experience as well. I never had an employee that lasted
until the end of the day- I tossed most of them out backwards before
lunch. Even had to fire my wife back when we were dating, and she
thought it might be fun to do cleanup jobs. It's awfully hard to
maintain a word-of-mouth reputation if you've got some jackass working
harder at trying to figure out a reason not to do anything than they'd
have had to work at just doing the job in the first place.

I got out of the construction business, which I was doing pretty well
in, to go into the shop and work by myself. I was real tired of the
people problems.

Swingman seems to have a handle on it and maybe he'll chime in. Seems
like he just builds a little bit each year and keeps some time out to
do those things that he enjoys.

He must have damned good subs that he's worked with for a good bit of
time.

A buddy of mine always says, "Hell, the making is easy - it's the
people that make it hard."

Fits with the hardest thing as well as the second hardest- convincing
the customer to get what they need, rather than what they think they
might want. I don't know how many times I had to argue with people
about the stupidest things- for example "Can you tile my shower? Oh
good- but I don't think I want to pay for concrete backer board...
can't you just use this plywood the roofers left?"

Of course, I made a major error in thinking that working for someone
else was bound to be easier. Now I wish I just would have stuck with
being a small-time independant- even with all the social bumps and
warts that go with it.

"gary" wrote in message
link.net...

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 3 Jun 2005 17:47:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

When I first started reading this n.g. several years ago you were in
the process of building your, iirc, "bullet proof boat."

Building boats is quicker and _far_ cheaper than maintaining them once
afloat.

Ask any boat owner. The amount it costs to look after it is more than
they expected, in rough proportion to the reduction in the time they
actually get to use it compared to expectations.



I know everybody has already heard this, but . .

Definition of a boat . . . "A hole in the water, into which you pour money".

Daughter & SIL just bought a 26' cruiser w/Mercruiser V8 that has suddenly
developed a bad case of "not gonna go". Can't get more than 2800RPM out of
it. He'll eventually get, but it's supremely frustrating(and costly).

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:23:47 -0700, charlie b
wrote:


snippage

I wish that I was twenty five again, so that I could do everything
over that I have already done.



You want to have another chance? I think you just want to avoid living like
the rest of us . . "I have to learn from other people's mistakes, I don't
have time enough to make them all myself".

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b

As a newbie and a hobbyist, my goal is to seek praise (and avoid snickers at
my screw-ups) from SAMBA and anyone else who sees what I've made. I think
about this all the time, "Loops, screwed up, what will people say?"
"Neat-of, bet I get lots of compliments on this project." Making money from
this hobby is furthers from my mind... maybe when I get better and quicker?

So far I've made cabinets for SAMBA and mother-in-law, and blue bird houses
for a Church fund raiser. Oh , and a few jigs and cabinets for my shop.
And I built my own house, I suppose that qualifies as woodworking.

Gary

Gary

"gary" wrote in message
link.net...
"charlie b" wrote in message
...
My woodworking goal is to be able to develop the knowledge,
skills and abilities necessary to design, build and finish
furniture I can't afford to buy.

(BTW - Tom Plamann's done it - so there's hope.)

What're you shooting for?

charlie b

As a newbie and a hobbyist, my goal is to seek praise (and avoid snickers
at my screw-ups) from SAMBA and anyone else who sees what I've made. I
think about this all the time, "Loops, screwed up, what will people say?"
"Neat-of, bet I get lots of compliments on this project." Making money
from this hobby is furthers from my mind... maybe when I get better and
quicker?

So far I've made cabinets for SAMBA and mother-in-law, and blue bird
houses for a Church fund raiser. Oh , and a few jigs and cabinets for my
shop. And I built my own house, I suppose that qualifies as woodworking.

Gary

Gary

SAMBA??? Where the heck did that come from? Lion King? Please replace with
SWMBO.

Gary

"charlie b" wrote in message
...

What're you shooting for?

To combine my vocation (hardware/software development), the avocation that
has brought me the greatest amount of satisfaction (woodworking), and my
long-standing interest in alternative energy technologies, especially solar,
in order to produce affordable devices that change thinking and reduce the
USA's (and the world's) dependence on non-renewable energy sources.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
www.iedu.com/DeSoto/