Having adopted Andrew Hilton's method for honing tools between sharpenings,
ie--fining them on a disc made of MDF with a 6" PSA sanding disc attached to
one side and a method of attaching it to the spindle on the lathe on the
other, I've run into a snag.

I used a 3" faceplate on my first such disc, but tried a second method of
attachment after someone suggested this: turning a partial-thickness recess
on the back of the MDF and gluing a nut (1x8 in this case) in the recess for
attachment to the spindle. After two attempts at this, it's been a failure.
In both cases I turned the backside hole slightly undersized for the nut,
then seated the nut into the hole with a brass mallet while gluing with
gap-filling cyanoacrylate adhesive (super glue), and then applying a fillet
of epoxy around the flats of the nut to fill the gaps between the nut and
the hole sides. I even scruff sanded the flats on the nut to bond to the
epoxy better. In both cases the nut eventually popped out of the hole,
sending the disc flying. I was not honing a tool at either time, and the
lathe was set to its lowest speed--roughly 450rpm.

Any ideas as to why the nut won't stay in the hole?

Max

Maxprop wrote:
Having adopted Andrew Hilton's method for honing tools between sharpenings,
ie--fining them on a disc made of MDF with a 6" PSA sanding disc attached to
one side and a method of attaching it to the spindle on the lathe on the
other, I've run into a snag.

I used a 3" faceplate on my first such disc, but tried a second method of
attachment after someone suggested this: turning a partial-thickness recess
on the back of the MDF and gluing a nut (1x8 in this case) in the recess for
attachment to the spindle. After two attempts at this, it's been a failure.
In both cases I turned the backside hole slightly undersized for the nut,
then seated the nut into the hole with a brass mallet while gluing with
gap-filling cyanoacrylate adhesive (super glue), and then applying a fillet
of epoxy around the flats of the nut to fill the gaps between the nut and
the hole sides. I even scruff sanded the flats on the nut to bond to the
epoxy better. In both cases the nut eventually popped out of the hole,
sending the disc flying. I was not honing a tool at either time, and the
lathe was set to its lowest speed--roughly 450rpm.

Any ideas as to why the nut won't stay in the hole?

Max

Did you degrease the nut? Acetone or even just soap and water will do.
Also, try undercutting the hole at an angle, just like a dovetail recess
for a scrollchuck. Then grind some random grooves in the nut, where it
fits in the recess. Make the hole deeper, even.


Ken Grunke
SW Wisconsin
http://www.token.crwoodturner.com/
Member, Coulee Region Woodturners AAW chapter
http://www.crwoodturner.com/



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Maxprop wrote:
Having adopted Andrew Hilton's method for honing tools between sharpenings,
ie--fining them on a disc made of MDF with a 6" PSA sanding disc attached to
one side and a method of attaching it to the spindle on the lathe on the
other, I've run into a snag.

I used a 3" faceplate on my first such disc, but tried a second method of
attachment after someone suggested this: turning a partial-thickness recess
on the back of the MDF and gluing a nut (1x8 in this case) in the recess for
attachment to the spindle. After two attempts at this, it's been a failure.
In both cases I turned the backside hole slightly undersized for the nut,
then seated the nut into the hole with a brass mallet while gluing with
gap-filling cyanoacrylate adhesive (super glue), and then applying a fillet
of epoxy around the flats of the nut to fill the gaps between the nut and
the hole sides. I even scruff sanded the flats on the nut to bond to the
epoxy better. In both cases the nut eventually popped out of the hole,
sending the disc flying. I was not honing a tool at either time, and the
lathe was set to its lowest speed--roughly 450rpm.

Any ideas as to why the nut won't stay in the hole?

Max


Did the nut seat on the shoulder of the spindle? If not, when it tries
to go further onto the spindle the end of the spindle will push on the
MDF. Try making a sleeve to go on before screwing on the nut/disk so
that you can actually tighten it a little against the sleeve without the
end of the spindle putting pressure on the MDF. Or if the remaining
thread is small, a couple of washers instead of a sleeve.

Another answer would be to drill a hole the size of the spindle all the
way through the MDF. The Paper will still stick and it shouldn't
interfere with the sharpening process.

--

Gerald Ross, Cochran, GA
To reply add the numerals "13" before the "at"
............................................
People will die this year that never
died before.




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Hello,

I cut two rough 3" circles out of 3/4" plywood and hacked out a hole for
the 1 x 8 nut to fit into (very sloppy hole) in one of the circles, and
glued
the two plywood circles together.

I then dropped the nut into the hole, and filled the surrounding hole with
Epoxy (very messy).

After the epoxy set and the glue dried, I put the assembly onto the lathe
and trued up the new faceplate.

I have made two such faceplates and been using this "nut" faceplate at
lathe speeds of 1200 rpm without it coming apart..

bernie feinerman

I think the main points have been covered:

degrease
spindle not protruding through nut
deeper hole

I think the last deserves further comment. The nut ideally should be sunk
completely in the wood, not just partially. If your mdf isn't thick
enough, glue more layers on the back. The hole should not go all the way
through the wood. The join will be stronger if the nut can bottom out in
the hole. The hole does not have to be a tight fit. Loose is okay, you
will be filling the gaps with epoxy anyway. Expect to true up the disk on
the lathe before attaching the abrasive.

You might want to consider adding some buffing compound to the edge of the
disk and using that surface as well. Some people make the edge a convex
shape and use it to hone the flute. Another option is to have two grits
on the front surface of the disk, an inner ring and an outer ring.

-mike paulson, fort collins, co

"Ken Grunke" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
Having adopted Andrew Hilton's method for honing tools between
sharpenings,
ie--fining them on a disc made of MDF with a 6" PSA sanding disc
attached to
one side and a method of attaching it to the spindle on the lathe on the
other, I've run into a snag.

I used a 3" faceplate on my first such disc, but tried a second method
of
attachment after someone suggested this: turning a partial-thickness
recess
on the back of the MDF and gluing a nut (1x8 in this case) in the recess
for
attachment to the spindle. After two attempts at this, it's been a
failure.
In both cases I turned the backside hole slightly undersized for the
nut,
then seated the nut into the hole with a brass mallet while gluing with
gap-filling cyanoacrylate adhesive (super glue), and then applying a
fillet
of epoxy around the flats of the nut to fill the gaps between the nut
and
the hole sides. I even scruff sanded the flats on the nut to bond to
the
epoxy better. In both cases the nut eventually popped out of the hole,
sending the disc flying. I was not honing a tool at either time, and
the
lathe was set to its lowest speed--roughly 450rpm.

Any ideas as to why the nut won't stay in the hole?

Max

Did you degrease the nut? Acetone or even just soap and water will do.

Yes. I degreased with acetone before and after scruff sanding the flats and
the underside with 80 grit prior to gluing.

Also, try undercutting the hole at an angle, just like a dovetail recess
for a scrollchuck.

I didn't do this, and it sounds like a reasonable idea.

Then grind some random grooves in the nut, where it
fits in the recess. Make the hole deeper even.

The hole was deep enough to completely contain the nut with no protrusion.
Go figure.

Max

"Gerald Ross" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
Having adopted Andrew Hilton's method for honing tools between
sharpenings,
ie--fining them on a disc made of MDF with a 6" PSA sanding disc
attached to
one side and a method of attaching it to the spindle on the lathe on the
other, I've run into a snag.

I used a 3" faceplate on my first such disc, but tried a second method
of
attachment after someone suggested this: turning a partial-thickness
recess
on the back of the MDF and gluing a nut (1x8 in this case) in the recess
for
attachment to the spindle. After two attempts at this, it's been a
failure.
In both cases I turned the backside hole slightly undersized for the
nut,
then seated the nut into the hole with a brass mallet while gluing with
gap-filling cyanoacrylate adhesive (super glue), and then applying a
fillet
of epoxy around the flats of the nut to fill the gaps between the nut
and
the hole sides. I even scruff sanded the flats on the nut to bond to
the
epoxy better. In both cases the nut eventually popped out of the hole,
sending the disc flying. I was not honing a tool at either time, and
the
lathe was set to its lowest speed--roughly 450rpm.

Any ideas as to why the nut won't stay in the hole?

Max


Did the nut seat on the shoulder of the spindle? If not, when it tries
to go further onto the spindle the end of the spindle will push on the
MDF.

I used a nylon washer between the nut and the shoulder of the spindle and
checked for any protrusion of the spindle before assembly. It was okay.

Try making a sleeve to go on before screwing on the nut/disk so
that you can actually tighten it a little against the sleeve without the
end of the spindle putting pressure on the MDF. Or if the remaining
thread is small, a couple of washers instead of a sleeve.

Another answer would be to drill a hole the size of the spindle all the
way through the MDF. The Paper will still stick and it shouldn't
interfere with the sharpening process.

I've been giving this some thought as well. I guess I didn't believe it was
necessary at first, but am considering a two step hole with the nut inserted
from the sandpaper side and the spindle protruding through a just-big-enough
hole in the back of the MDF disc. Of course I'd have to place a large
washer between the shoulder of the spindle and the MDF to keep it from
crushing.

Max

"bernie feinerman" wrote in message

Hello,

I cut two rough 3" circles out of 3/4" plywood and hacked out a hole
for
the 1 x 8 nut to fit into (very sloppy hole) in one of the circles, and
glued
the two plywood circles together.

I then dropped the nut into the hole, and filled the surrounding hole with
Epoxy (very messy).

After the epoxy set and the glue dried, I put the assembly onto the lathe
and trued up the new faceplate.

I have made two such faceplates and been using this "nut" faceplate at
lathe speeds of 1200 rpm without it coming apart..

bernie feinerman

Ah, I like this idea, Bernie. Thanks.

Max

"Mike Paulson" wrote in message

You might want to consider adding some buffing compound to the edge of the
disk and using that surface as well. Some people make the edge a convex
shape and use it to hone the flute. Another option is to have two grits
on the front surface of the disk, an inner ring and an outer ring.

More good ideas. Thanks, Mike.

Max

at the risk of sounding like a shill for my own cheap faceplates (ok,
blatant advert - try www.home.labridge.com/~wnoble if you are interested),
I'll take a try and answering the question

1. you will not be successful with a friction fit of iron in wood, period.
the sides of the nut (particularly small ones like 1X8) are smooth.
2. CA glue is quite brittle
3. the fillet of expoxy does nothing except waste the epoxy.

so, how could you make this work other than spending the $5 to buy one of my
faceplates? ok, here are some choices:

1. use a suitable adhesive - a urethane such as is used on automotive
windshields ought to work - turn the recess for the nut so it has a groove
or two in it to give the urethane something to hold onto. Note, I haven't
tried this, but I know the urethane will hold to clean iron.

2. drill and tap holes into the nut (three will do) and use 10X24 screws to
fasten the disk to the nut

3. encase the nut in wood and hold the wood surround to the disk with wood
screws - this is probably the most time consuming but requires the lowest $$
outlay.

4. forget the stupid nut, drill and tap the wood directly. this will hold
up for a while, when it eventually strips, make a new one.



"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...
Having adopted Andrew Hilton's method for honing tools between
sharpenings,
ie--fining them on a disc made of MDF with a 6" PSA sanding disc attached
to
one side and a method of attaching it to the spindle on the lathe on the
other, I've run into a snag.

I used a 3" faceplate on my first such disc, but tried a second method of
attachment after someone suggested this: turning a partial-thickness
recess
on the back of the MDF and gluing a nut (1x8 in this case) in the recess
for
attachment to the spindle. After two attempts at this, it's been a
failure.
In both cases I turned the backside hole slightly undersized for the nut,
then seated the nut into the hole with a brass mallet while gluing with
gap-filling cyanoacrylate adhesive (super glue), and then applying a
fillet
of epoxy around the flats of the nut to fill the gaps between the nut and
the hole sides. I even scruff sanded the flats on the nut to bond to the
epoxy better. In both cases the nut eventually popped out of the hole,
sending the disc flying. I was not honing a tool at either time, and the
lathe was set to its lowest speed--roughly 450rpm.

Any ideas as to why the nut won't stay in the hole?

Max

Now why wouldn't you get a LH faceplate for the other end of the spindle if
you're going for convenience? Seems to me dismounting, installing and
remounting would get to be aggravating. As no one else has mentioned this,
I wonder if I missed something in the concept.

My choice is the implied 5 -faceplate, though if you're a sandpaper type,
you can use any flat substrate in a stationary mode to adhere your paper and
move the tool. I believe the advocates of same call it scary sharp. Then
there's the Frank Pain method of stone and rest, where, once again you may
substitute a piece of paper on substrate, holding the tool steady and moving
the paper "stone."

3 is workable, because the material will now share any starting shock,
rather than just the adhesive.

4 seems a bit ambitious for a material like MDF.

"william_b_noble" wrote in message
. ..

3. encase the nut in wood and hold the wood surround to the disk with wood
screws - this is probably the most time consuming but requires the lowest
$$
outlay.

4. forget the stupid nut, drill and tap the wood directly. this will hold
up for a while, when it eventually strips, make a new one.

"George" george@least wrote in message
Now why wouldn't you get a LH faceplate for the other end of the spindle
if
you're going for convenience? Seems to me dismounting, installing and
remounting would get to be aggravating. As no one else has mentioned
this,
I wonder if I missed something in the concept.

My lathe has a handwheel on the LH end of the spindle. Frankly I haven't
investigated the possibility of your suggestion, but I'd still have to come
up with some sort of outboard tool rest, and that would seem to complicate
things even more than troubleshooting the original idea. It really isn't
too inconvenient to remove the turning stock and screw on the honing disc.
Unless I'm really into a larger piece with edge-dulling stock, I'm not doing
it that often.

Max

My choice is the implied 5 -faceplate, though if you're a sandpaper
type,
you can use any flat substrate in a stationary mode to adhere your paper
and
move the tool. I believe the advocates of same call it scary sharp. Then
there's the Frank Pain method of stone and rest, where, once again you may
substitute a piece of paper on substrate, holding the tool steady and
moving
the paper "stone."

3 is workable, because the material will now share any starting shock,
rather than just the adhesive.

4 seems a bit ambitious for a material like MDF.

"william_b_noble" wrote in message
. ..

3. encase the nut in wood and hold the wood surround to the disk with
wood
screws - this is probably the most time consuming but requires the
lowest
$$
outlay.

4. forget the stupid nut, drill and tap the wood directly. this will
hold
up for a while, when it eventually strips, make a new one.

"william_b_noble" wrote in message

at the risk of sounding like a shill for my own cheap faceplates (ok,
blatant advert - try www.home.labridge.com/~wnoble if you are interested),
I'll take a try and answering the question

1. you will not be successful with a friction fit of iron in wood, period.
the sides of the nut (particularly small ones like 1X8) are smooth.
2. CA glue is quite brittle
3. the fillet of expoxy does nothing except waste the epoxy.

so, how could you make this work other than spending the $5 to buy one of
my
faceplates? ok, here are some choices:

1. use a suitable adhesive - a urethane such as is used on automotive
windshields ought to work - turn the recess for the nut so it has a groove
or two in it to give the urethane something to hold onto. Note, I haven't
tried this, but I know the urethane will hold to clean iron.

Is Gorilla Glue a suitable urethane adhesive IYO? I also have some 3M 5200
marine urethane caulk (adhesive) as well.

2. drill and tap holes into the nut (three will do) and use 10X24 screws
to
fasten the disk to the nut

I considered this as well. Seems extreme to achieve a simple result,
however.


3. encase the nut in wood and hold the wood surround to the disk with wood
screws - this is probably the most time consuming but requires the lowest
$$
outlay.

I'm considering this as an alternative. The only change I'd probably make
is to glue the encased nut/wood assy. to the disc rather than attach with
wood screws. I don't place much faith in the integrity of MDF to hold
screws under load.


4. forget the stupid nut, drill and tap the wood directly. this will hold
up for a while, when it eventually strips, make a new one.

See my comment immediately above. Not a great fan of MDF as a threaded
material either.

Your inexpensive faceplates are probably the best alternative, and I've
thought many times about just calling you and ordering some. But I tend to
be a DIY sort. Call it testosterone-induced confidence if you will, but
it's a common malady among the men in my family. I don't ask for directions
while driving either. :-)

You can probably expect a call soon.

Max

Your outboard rest is a piece of wood at right angles to one fastened to the
table, I should think. Not as if you'll put a bunch of stress on it. Sure
glad I saved those appliance motors when I did. Everything is powered, even
my strop!

Never had a handwheel, what is it useful for that a wrench on the shaft
flats or nut wouldn't do?

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"George" george@least wrote in message
Now why wouldn't you get a LH faceplate for the other end of the spindle
if
you're going for convenience? Seems to me dismounting, installing and
remounting would get to be aggravating. As no one else has mentioned
this,
I wonder if I missed something in the concept.

My lathe has a handwheel on the LH end of the spindle. Frankly I haven't
investigated the possibility of your suggestion, but I'd still have to
come
up with some sort of outboard tool rest, and that would seem to complicate
things even more than troubleshooting the original idea.

Hi Bill, You are no shill and your faceplates are simple and
affordable. They work. Just don't tell the nut that held a hardwood
disc on a washing machine motor for this nut for years doesn't have to
work. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Maxprop" wrote in message
news SNIP......
See my comment immediately above. Not a great fan of MDF as a threaded
material either.
SNIP.........
=====================
Max,
MDF in its native condition is not a good candidate for threading, but if
you flood the threaded area with water thin CA glue and let it soak in, it
does a pretty good job of hardening the MDF. It won't hold like the steel
nut would, but it's not holding anyway.{:-))

Ken

"George" george@least wrote in message

Your outboard rest is a piece of wood at right angles to one fastened to
the
table, I should think.

I have a Jet 1442, which sit on its own legs. Nothing really to attach a
rest. It would have to be a free-standing one at the very least, without
some major surgery to the lathe itself.


Never had a handwheel, what is it useful for that a wrench on the shaft
flats or nut wouldn't do?

You'd have to pose that inquiry to Jet/Powermatic. I'd much prefer an
outboard spindle with threads to attach something.

Max

"Ken Moon" wrote in message

Max,
MDF in its native condition is not a good candidate for threading, but if
you flood the threaded area with water thin CA glue and let it soak in, it
does a pretty good job of hardening the MDF. It won't hold like the steel
nut would, but it's not holding anyway.{:-))

I've got something that might work even better than CA: a marine product
called Git-Rot, which is little more than a very watery epoxy which
penetrates into wood amazingly, especially if it's rotted. Of course MDF
isn't rotted, but I did apply some to a chunk once, then cut a section
through it to see how far the stuff had penetrated. Interestingly it had
gone about 5mm into the MDF and the stuff was like a rock to that point.

That said, I still am resistant to threading MDF for the purpose stated.

Max

"Arch" wrote in message


Hi Bill, You are no shill and your faceplates are simple and
affordable. They work. Just don't tell the nut that held a hardwood
disc on a washing machine motor for this nut for years doesn't have to
work. Arch

What is your secret, Arch?

Max

Hi Max,
My secret is to never turn the motor on. Actually, I dunno. Maybe
using an oak disc? Maybe using a rough hot dipped galvanized or a rusty
nut? Maybe kind & gentle sanding? Maybe a visitation from... the
Almighty.

If the 1442 was designed for its inboard swing, outboard turning must
have its limits. Depending on what you want to turn, it might not be
worth your while.

Consider turning a nicely finished hardwood 'donut' to fit over or on
your handwheel, but doesn't cover the spindle hole. I think mine
dresses up the machine. It is a handy hand brake or clutch. I find it
useful as a motorless hand drive for controlled slow or partial
revolutions such as 'back-forth' spot sanding, splatterless liquid
application etc.

Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

You should epoxy the nut into a slightly oversize hole and skip the CA
entirely. Epoxy the hole before putting the nut in and clamp to hold the
nut down. I would guarantee this would work. Epoxy is not as brittle as
CA. From your description, it sounds like you were relying on the CA, with
a fillet of epoxy just for backup.

"Arch" wrote in message

If the 1442 was designed for its inboard swing, outboard turning must
have its limits. Depending on what you want to turn, it might not be
worth your while.

The spindle head rotates on its ways, allowing outboard turning. The banjo
includes an extension for turning at roughly 45 degrees from the ways. This
would allow a swing of roughly 20". But it can be turned 90 or 180 degrees
for turning off the front or outboard end, if so desired.

Consider turning a nicely finished hardwood 'donut' to fit over or on
your handwheel, but doesn't cover the spindle hole. I think mine
dresses up the machine. It is a handy hand brake or clutch. I find it
useful as a motorless hand drive for controlled slow or partial
revolutions such as 'back-forth' spot sanding, splatterless liquid
application etc.

What I need is a Stubby with a few Baldor motors sitting around for the
ancillary tasks. :-)

Max

"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message

You should epoxy the nut into a slightly oversize hole and skip the CA
entirely. Epoxy the hole before putting the nut in and clamp to hold the
nut down. I would guarantee this would work. Epoxy is not as brittle as
CA. From your description, it sounds like you were relying on the CA,
with
a fillet of epoxy just for backup.

That was not exactly my intent, but it probably turned out to be the case
regardless. I was using the CA only for securing the nut into the hole to
enable adding the epoxy. But I really didn't leave enough clearance for
much epoxy, so you could be right.

I re-glued one of my discs last night with 3M 5200 marine caulk, which is a
polyurethane adhesive. I'm optimistic this stuff will do the trick. In
boating we have an axiom: if you *ever* plan on removing a piece of
hardware, do NOT bed it with 5200.

I'll report on my success or lack thereof.

Max