I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

Hi William. Strictly my personal opinion, but to me most (not all of
course) price labels stuck on handmade work tend to cheapen it. That's
ok for both ends; the Dollar Store and Tiffany's, but IMO not the
in-between turned work by William Kossack (or any other turner)
regardless of how trivial a turned object might seem.

If you do choose to stick labels on your work, I suggest that the label.
be small, discreet, elegant and handwritten in small script...and barely
stuck on, maybe with a dot of rubber cement or a peeling type
adhesive made with a solvent that doesn't affect the finish. I suspect
that you can tell that my only experience with labels is that my wife
once worked for the Dennison company in Boston.

I'm hijacking your thread, but I hope it's ok to include other means to
indicate prices? ex: cards for your better turnings; HFs, bowls, etc
and grouped common prices for your rent payers; tops, needle cases,
etc.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Hi William

William my better half does the pricing and sticker thing as well as
the paper work, she's much better at that than I. :-))

My bowls are always finished and the ones that have an oil finish do
present a problem sometimes, however putting less oil on the foot has
made it less so.

As I number most all of my turnings, that number goes on the sticker
with the price, so if stickers fall off they are not switched to the
wrong turning, also as a backup the gallery has prices and numbers to
alleviate any possible problems.

The stickers themselves are very small and cut from labeling or address
labels, with the # sign and number and the $ sign and price, clearly
handwritten in small letters/numbers.

Some galleries do also need a vendor number, and this is on a separate
little label.

This is the way we are doing it now, and it works just fine, if we find
a better way, we'll adopt that.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

william kossack wrote
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

I had thought of small labels.

I was thinking of putting a code on each label then having a sign that
explains the code ie type of wood, finish and care.

One thought was a small label on a string. The string is attached to
the bottom with a small bit of hot melt glue

Arch wrote:
Hi William. Strictly my personal opinion, but to me most (not all of
course) price labels stuck on handmade work tend to cheapen it. That's
ok for both ends; the Dollar Store and Tiffany's, but IMO not the
in-between turned work by William Kossack (or any other turner)
regardless of how trivial a turned object might seem.

If you do choose to stick labels on your work, I suggest that the label.
be small, discreet, elegant and handwritten in small script...and barely
stuck on, maybe with a dot of rubber cement or a peeling type
adhesive made with a solvent that doesn't affect the finish. I suspect
that you can tell that my only experience with labels is that my wife
once worked for the Dennison company in Boston.

I'm hijacking your thread, but I hope it's ok to include other means to
indicate prices? ex: cards for your better turnings; HFs, bowls, etc
and grouped common prices for your rent payers; tops, needle cases,
etc.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I'm not organized enough to number each of my turnings. I'm lucky if I
inital and date them.

However, it is worth thinking about. I burn my initials, wood and date
into the bottom of everything but I imagine a sharpie could be used for
the numbers.

My SWMBO (the one that decided to sell both my turnings and things she
has collected over time) has final say on all of this.

wrote:
Hi William

William my better half does the pricing and sticker thing as well as
the paper work, she's much better at that than I. :-))

My bowls are always finished and the ones that have an oil finish do
present a problem sometimes, however putting less oil on the foot has
made it less so.

As I number most all of my turnings, that number goes on the sticker
with the price, so if stickers fall off they are not switched to the
wrong turning, also as a backup the gallery has prices and numbers to
alleviate any possible problems.

The stickers themselves are very small and cut from labeling or address
labels, with the # sign and number and the $ sign and price, clearly
handwritten in small letters/numbers.

Some galleries do also need a vendor number, and this is on a separate
little label.

This is the way we are doing it now, and it works just fine, if we find
a better way, we'll adopt that.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

william kossack wrote

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

william kossack wrote:
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

William,
Try Avery labels #05424. This is a removable label, white, 5/8"x7/8".
Enough space to put a price and some reference to the product (e.g. '10"
maple'). They can fall off, but that's better than not coming off at all.
David

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is attaching
price labels to them.

I was going to say 'use thumbtacks', but forgot how to make that tongue-in-cheek
emoticon.

We have a fancy-smancy laser engraver at work. I'm just gonna laser burn a
barcode on the bottom and be done with it.



Dan

Nah any modern woodworker would use a brad nailer

Dan Bollinger wrote:
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.


I was going to say 'use thumbtacks', but forgot how to make that
tongue-in-cheek emoticon.

We have a fancy-smancy laser engraver at work. I'm just gonna laser burn
a barcode on the bottom and be done with it.



Dan

william kossack wrote:
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.
Well I have only needed to do this once and I made small labels on the
computer, punched a hole in the top and put a loop of fancy thread
through it. I used that sticky putty stuff you can buy to put pictures
on the wall, just a small pea sized piece, to stick the other end of
the thread inside the bowl/HF. This way you can adjust the positition
of the label so it is readable without picking up the turning. Never
sold anything at my one and only show so I haven't done it again!
Peter
Visit my site at:
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/pHyde/

Nah any modern woodworker would use a brad nailer

True, and so would I.

Hi William

Yes I know what you are saying, I'm not that organized either, that's
where Anny comes in, I do like you, hot wire G my name and woods name
and the date into it,(We assume there is room for all) then when Anny
has time and feels like it, she'll make pictures of the to be marked
turnings, and put on the labels, with the number, and it's then my job
to do the number burning.
It does work.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

william kossack wrote:
I'm not organized enough to number each of my turnings. I'm lucky if I
inital and date them.

However, it is worth thinking about. I burn my initials, wood and date
into the bottom of everything but I imagine a sharpie could be used for
the numbers.

My SWMBO (the one that decided to sell both my turnings and things she
has collected over time) has final say on all of this.

wrote:
Hi William

William my better half does the pricing and sticker thing as well as
the paper work, she's much better at that than I. :-))

My bowls are always finished and the ones that have an oil finish do
present a problem sometimes, however putting less oil on the foot has
made it less so.

As I number most all of my turnings, that number goes on the sticker
with the price, so if stickers fall off they are not switched to the
wrong turning, also as a backup the gallery has prices and numbers to
alleviate any possible problems.

The stickers themselves are very small and cut from labeling or address
labels, with the # sign and number and the $ sign and price, clearly
handwritten in small letters/numbers.

Some galleries do also need a vendor number, and this is on a separate
little label.

This is the way we are doing it now, and it works just fine, if we find
a better way, we'll adopt that.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

william kossack wrote

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

I've been through most of the ideas presented so far, and non have worked
well for me at all. I absolutely agree that a price-tag label looks tacky,
always.

What I've evolved to is group pricing for my rent-payers on cards, as
suggested above, and my bowls and boxes are never visibly priced. I have a
display structure that I built many years ago and as I arrange my
bowls/boxes at a show, I take note of where each is and write the price on a
piece of paper that goes behind the display for reference (my daughters
often join me at shows). As patrons wander through they have to ask for the
prices of the bowls and boxes... and if we've gotten that far, they've
already picked up the item, run their hand over it, we've talked about how
it was made, etc.

I've found that many people cruise through a show, flipping over stuff to
find out how much it costs and moving on, as though it was a race. If I can
get people to slow down, pick up a bowl that has caught their eye and start
a conversation about it, I've got them.

My bowl and box sales went way up when I took the price tags off them.


"william kossack" wrote in message
. ..
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

this is interesting

My wife was talking about finding a way of gluing the string inside a
hollowform/vase (she is in charge after all and I'm just the artist)

Canchippy wrote:
william kossack wrote:

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

Well I have only needed to do this once and I made small labels on the
computer, punched a hole in the top and put a loop of fancy thread
through it. I used that sticky putty stuff you can buy to put pictures
on the wall, just a small pea sized piece, to stick the other end of
the thread inside the bowl/HF. This way you can adjust the positition
of the label so it is readable without picking up the turning. Never
sold anything at my one and only show so I haven't done it again!
Peter
Visit my site at:
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/pHyde/

unfortunately the person that has the space where I'm going to display
my turnings wants prices attached to everything so labels are necessary.

Michael Latcha wrote:
I've been through most of the ideas presented so far, and non have worked
well for me at all. I absolutely agree that a price-tag label looks tacky,
always.

What I've evolved to is group pricing for my rent-payers on cards, as
suggested above, and my bowls and boxes are never visibly priced. I have a
display structure that I built many years ago and as I arrange my
bowls/boxes at a show, I take note of where each is and write the price on a
piece of paper that goes behind the display for reference (my daughters
often join me at shows). As patrons wander through they have to ask for the
prices of the bowls and boxes... and if we've gotten that far, they've
already picked up the item, run their hand over it, we've talked about how
it was made, etc.

I've found that many people cruise through a show, flipping over stuff to
find out how much it costs and moving on, as though it was a race. If I can
get people to slow down, pick up a bowl that has caught their eye and start
a conversation about it, I've got them.

My bowl and box sales went way up when I took the price tags off them.


"william kossack" wrote in message
. ..

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:20:24 -0600, william kossack
wrote:

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

After trying a lot of other ways, what works for me is one of my cards, but I
guess I should back up here..

I make my cards on the computer and print 2 kinds.... th normal ones that I hand
out and a set with the type a bit smaller and white space in the middle of the
card...
I found a roll of "sticky dots" in my wife's sewing stuff... like the stuff they
stick credit cards to cardboard to for easy removal..

I write the items description and price on the card, put a small hole in the
corner and put a loop of gold elastic cord through the hole... pop a dot on the
loop and stick on a handy part of the item... on bowls, the inside/top of the
lip works well..

The dot is easily removed at sale and the card can be moved to see all of the
bowl.. no label stuck on to hide the wood...
AND.. they have my card when they leave, which most keep because they aren't
going to remember what kind of wood the thing was made out of it they
don't..YMWV
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Arch wrote:
Hi William. Strictly my personal opinion, but to me most (not all of
course) price labels stuck on handmade work tend to cheapen it. That's
ok for both ends; the Dollar Store and Tiffany's, but IMO not the
in-between turned work by William Kossack (or any other turner)
regardless of how trivial a turned object might seem.

snip

I'm hijacking your thread, but I hope it's ok to include other means to
indicate prices? ex: cards for your better turnings; HFs, bowls, etc
and grouped common prices for your rent payers; tops, needle cases,
etc.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings


I use a Black micron Pigma fine tip pen to number, date and sign mine.
Each item is listed on the price list by item number, no prices on the
actual bowl.

This is a non-fading archival pigment ink and it writes fine on finished
and waxed surfaces.


--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

A man's got to know his limitations.





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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:20:24 -0600, william kossack
wrote:

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.
It really depends on where you are showing, and what the price range
and ......ummmmm.....'quality' of your work. In elite shows or
galleries, one adopts a more formal method.

I do about 6 shows a year, 1-2 in Spring and 4-5 in Fall, and have
simply used little white stickers on most items. The exception is
large, heavy and/or expensive pieces which are not convenient to pick
up. For those, I make a small card to place near it. (Also, some woods
are oily, and labels will not hold well)

I have sold stuff from $5 to $400, and never felt like it was tacky,
awkward or tedious to have an easily removable small label. I make
items from tiny Tagua nut vessels to 14" bowls and platters, and on
'most' of them, it would be a lot harder to attach other types of
price labels.

You just do what seems easiest and is relevant to the type of pieces
YOU make and the shows you attend.

william kossack wrote:
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

I have a little blurb card that I attach to all my turnings. The price
lable is on it, since it'll be tossed out anyway most likely. For bowls
I just set it in them. For something with a finial or with a hole of
some sort I punch a hole in the card and attach it with string.

The card has my logo & name/address on the outside (sorta like a
business card) and on the inside it has the wood type, finish, a care
and feeding write up and an 'artist's statement'. They're pretty cheap
to do. I did them up in a word processor, and get several hundred
printed up for around $10 or so. They take 1/4 of a sheet of paper
each. The print/copy shop cuts them for me even...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

tonight we tried several approaches
Tape did not work
something called tacky stick or sticky putty stuff did not work very
well either

much of what we were trying were hollow forms out of aspen

We ended up using a bit of hot melt glue just on the inside lip of the
hollow form with a length of string to attach the price/information tag.

We still have a problem with bowls.

william kossack wrote:
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

Hi William

Take a look at one of my albums, the first 2 photos show some bowls and
other turnings with the stickers we use, they stay on pretty good most
of the time.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum23.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


william kossack wrote:
tonight we tried several approaches
Tape did not work
something called tacky stick or sticky putty stuff did not work very
well either

much of what we were trying were hollow forms out of aspen

We ended up using a bit of hot melt glue just on the inside lip of the
hollow form with a length of string to attach the price/information tag.

We still have a problem with bowls.

william kossack wrote:
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

I'll have to try something. I think a big problem is the people taking
care of the booth have certain requirments for the tags they want. Most
other booths have string attached to the item and a paper tag attached
to the string.

Another problem is that many of my bowls are simply soaked in mineral
oil. Stickers will not stick to them.

I had a discussion with my wife last night if a bowl finished in lacquer
could be consider food safe. Stuff easily sticks to lacquer but putting
food in a lacquer bowl would not be very good for the bowl in my view

wrote:
Hi William

Take a look at one of my albums, the first 2 photos show some bowls and
other turnings with the stickers we use, they stay on pretty good most
of the time.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum23.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


william kossack wrote:

tonight we tried several approaches
Tape did not work
something called tacky stick or sticky putty stuff did not work very
well either

much of what we were trying were hollow forms out of aspen

We ended up using a bit of hot melt glue just on the inside lip of the
hollow form with a length of string to attach the price/information tag.

We still have a problem with bowls.

william kossack wrote:

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

"william kossack" wrote in message
...
I'll have to try something. I think a big problem is the people taking
care of the booth have certain requirments for the tags they want. Most
other booths have string attached to the item and a paper tag attached to
the string.

Another problem is that many of my bowls are simply soaked in mineral oil.
Stickers will not stick to them.

I had a discussion with my wife last night if a bowl finished in lacquer
could be consider food safe. Stuff easily sticks to lacquer but putting
food in a lacquer bowl would not be very good for the bowl in my view

====================

I think the Japanese eat from their "lacquer ware". The main problem I see
with lacquer in a "dish" use would be the brittle nature of lacquer, and it
would be prone to chipping when used with metal utensils. I guess the
Japanese chopsticks wouldn't pose such a problem. Lacquer imparts a great
impervious surface, but once chipped, liquid infiltration can damage the
wood underneath. Acrylic lacquers are more flexible, but not quite so easy
to use, IHMO.

Ken Moon
W3ebberville, TX.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:46:45 -0600, william kossack
wrote:

Almost everything I turn goes through at least the wax wheel of the Beall, even
the friction polished ones... the wax is food safe and both removable scotch
tape and the sticky-dots stick to the surface..


I'll have to try something. I think a big problem is the people taking
care of the booth have certain requirments for the tags they want. Most
other booths have string attached to the item and a paper tag attached
to the string.

Another problem is that many of my bowls are simply soaked in mineral
oil. Stickers will not stick to them.

I had a discussion with my wife last night if a bowl finished in lacquer
could be consider food safe. Stuff easily sticks to lacquer but putting
food in a lacquer bowl would not be very good for the bowl in my view

wrote:
Hi William

Take a look at one of my albums, the first 2 photos show some bowls and
other turnings with the stickers we use, they stay on pretty good most
of the time.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum23.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


william kossack wrote:

tonight we tried several approaches
Tape did not work
something called tacky stick or sticky putty stuff did not work very
well either

much of what we were trying were hollow forms out of aspen

We ended up using a bit of hot melt glue just on the inside lip of the
hollow form with a length of string to attach the price/information tag.

We still have a problem with bowls.

william kossack wrote:

I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.



Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

I use beall primarily also but I've been experimenting with other
finishs. For example, I have a cedar vase that has several coats of
lacquer on it. After allowing some drying time I buffed it up with the
beall to smooth out the surface.

mac davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:46:45 -0600, william kossack
wrote:

Almost everything I turn goes through at least the wax wheel of the Beall, even
the friction polished ones... the wax is food safe and both removable scotch
tape and the sticky-dots stick to the surface..



I'll have to try something. I think a big problem is the people taking
care of the booth have certain requirments for the tags they want. Most
other booths have string attached to the item and a paper tag attached
to the string.

Another problem is that many of my bowls are simply soaked in mineral
oil. Stickers will not stick to them.

I had a discussion with my wife last night if a bowl finished in lacquer
could be consider food safe. Stuff easily sticks to lacquer but putting
food in a lacquer bowl would not be very good for the bowl in my view

wrote:

Hi William

Take a look at one of my albums, the first 2 photos show some bowls and
other turnings with the stickers we use, they stay on pretty good most
of the time.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum23.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


william kossack wrote:


tonight we tried several approaches
Tape did not work
something called tacky stick or sticky putty stuff did not work very
well either

much of what we were trying were hollow forms out of aspen

We ended up using a bit of hot melt glue just on the inside lip of the
hollow form with a length of string to attach the price/information tag.

We still have a problem with bowls.

william kossack wrote:


I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.



Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

3M Post-It Tape makes great labels that can be removed
from most surfaces without leaving a residue.

william kossack wrote:
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is
attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a
vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:04:13 -0600, william kossack
wrote:

I use beall primarily also but I've been experimenting with other
finishs. For example, I have a cedar vase that has several coats of
lacquer on it. After allowing some drying time I buffed it up with the
beall to smooth out the surface.

I use it on everything from bare, sanded wood to things that just look a bit
dull....

Some things just get the wax wheel, others get the whole treatment, etc...

Some finishes will abrade off with the 1st wheel, so I just do the white diamond
and wax wheels... I never realized how versatile the buffing system was!

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

william kossack:
I have some turnings that I wanted to try and sell but the problem is

attaching price labels to them.

I'm looking for a way of attaching labels to the bottom of a bowl or a

vase that will stick without damaging the surface. Most bottoms are
not
currently finished but are smooth and sanded.


I use a parting tool to make a 1" wide shallow recess in the bottom of
the bowl.
A 1/2" round price tag goes there.
I had round brass blanks etched w/my name, then when I sell a piece, I
superglue one of the brass discs in over the top of the price tag, thus
"locking in" the price for generations.

Email if you need directions on making your own etched brass discs.

Along the same lines, when I make a burial urn for someone's ashes (a
VERY lucrative job), I use a press to drill two (2) holes in the base.
The first hole holds a CA-glued penny representing the person's year of
birth, the second a penny showing the year of death.

You can also make a single hole w/drill or parting tool, the glue in the
year of birth or year or deth, client's choice.

This is a very single add-on that greatly impresses the client.

"Jim" wrote in message
...
william kossack:

[snip]
Along the same lines, when I make a burial urn for someone's ashes (a
VERY lucrative job), I use a press to drill two (2) holes in the base.
The first hole holds a CA-glued penny representing the person's year of
birth, the second a penny showing the year of death.

You can also make a single hole w/drill or parting tool, the glue in the
year of birth or year or deth, client's choice.

This is a very single add-on that greatly impresses the client.

Do you have a picture of one of the urns you've turned that you could put on
line?