In article ,
IMM wrote:
of corse it makes a difference! a joist with a smoothly shaped "U"
will be far stronger than a straight cut slot.

nope. Regs say no problems with a straight cut. Duh!

Which regs?

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
of corse it makes a difference! a joist with a smoothly shaped "U"
will be far stronger than a straight cut slot.

nope. Regs say no problems with a straight cut. Duh!

Which regs?

The rugby union regs.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
Not if you don't go down too deep and it is with 25% of the span
from a wall, and the floor boards around the nlotches are screwed
not nailed.

The correct way to try and regain some of the lost strength is to
screw a steel plate across the notch. This has the added benefit of
protecting the pipe to some extent.

Correct way? That is only one way.

Judging by your recent posts, 'correct' has no place in your 'head'.

My posts are above your head.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
of corse it makes a difference! a joist with a smoothly shaped "U"
will be far stronger than a straight cut slot.

nope. Regs say no problems with a straight cut. Duh!

Which regs?

The rugby union regs.


Might as well have been !

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
Not if you don't go down too deep and it is with 25% of the span
from a wall, and the floor boards around the nlotches are screwed
not nailed.

The correct way to try and regain some of the lost strength is to
screw a steel plate across the notch. This has the added benefit of
protecting the pipe to some extent.

Correct way? That is only one way.

Judging by your recent posts, 'correct' has no place in your 'head'.

My posts are above your head.


There above everyone's head, only you are on cloud 'cuckoo'...

In article ,
IMM wrote:
I have done both. Most pros will tell you plastic is no quicker than
copper. Also there is the time top replace the defective joints after
testing. They don't like it.

You mean you know 'pros' who use hacksaws? Do they attend the same clinic
as you?

--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:46:22 UTC, "IMM" wrote:

Is there any preference between straight cut ( |_| ) or 'U' shape
notches
Makes no difference.
of corse it makes a difference! a joist with a smoothly shaped "U"
will be far stronger than a straight cut slot.

nope. Regs say no problems with a straight cut. Duh!

He never mentioned the regs. But structurally, a U shape will be
stronger. Read the famous 'Structures' book...

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...dump Windows!

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:48:24 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:19:14 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:50:22 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message

You can use just a copper bend and plastic pushfit fittings at
either
side
of the bend.


What on earth for?

So you can have a tight bend that does not want to unbend itself.
Unless
you use unipipe.

If you use the formers supplied by the plastic plumbing manufacturers
you can have quite a tight bend which will stay in place without
having to mess around with this.

Or better still use proper pipe. The expense of all this garbage too,
special formers and whatnot.

It's one of the tradeoffs between cost of materials vs. time taken and
between doing a job properly and bodging it.

Exactly. Copper is quicker and a proper pro job. Plastic is for the
toybox.

Sigh..... So I think we do need to get you the Maplin toolkit. Do
you want it in your stocking or for under the tree?


How much do you donate
to the rich each year?

Way too much in taxes, national insurance,
VAT, duty,.........

How much do you personally donate to the rich each year?

The Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise will give you the rates if
you ask. It's also on their web site, so I imagine that your built
in search engine would find them easily enough.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

IMM wrote:

When you have to traverse several joists
(and circumstances dictate that
you can't notch the joists or even place
all the holes through the
joists inline), copper would be a nightmare!


The runs are always near walls.

You still won't be notching a flitch beam or a RSJ though will you?

You would have to assemble
a pipe run from lots of short segments
joined together - very time
consuming with lots of under floor joints.


No one does what you said.

Other than you is seems...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

When you have to traverse several joists
(and circumstances dictate that
you can't notch the joists or even place
all the holes through the
joists inline), copper would be a nightmare!


The runs are always near walls.

You still won't be notching a flitch beam or a RSJ though will you?

You are quoting the exception.

You would have to assemble
a pipe run from lots of short segments
joined together - very time
consuming with lots of under floor joints.


No one does what you said.

Other than you is seems...

And all other sane mortals too.

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:46:22 UTC, "IMM" wrote:

Is there any preference between straight cut ( |_| ) or 'U' shape
notches
Makes no difference.
of corse it makes a difference! a joist with a smoothly shaped "U"
will be far stronger than a straight cut slot.

nope. Regs say no problems with a straight cut. Duh!

He never mentioned the regs. But structurally, a U shape will be
stronger. Read the famous 'Structures' book...

But it still will not make any difference in this case.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:

I have done both. Most pros will tell you plastic is no quicker than
copper. Also there is the time top replace the defective joints after
testing. They don't like it.

snip babble by a dysfunctional

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
Not if you don't go down too deep and it is with 25% of the span
from a wall, and the floor boards around the nlotches are
screwed
not nailed.

The correct way to try and regain some of the lost strength is to
screw a steel plate across the notch. This has the added benefit
of
protecting the pipe to some extent.

Correct way? That is only one way.

Judging by your recent posts, 'correct' has no place in your 'head'.

My posts are above your head.

There above everyone's head,

That is about the only;y bit of sense you have said.

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
of corse it makes a difference! a joist with a smoothly shaped "U"
will be far stronger than a straight cut slot.

nope. Regs say no problems with a straight cut. Duh!

Which regs?

The rugby union regs.

Might as well have been !

Is this more sense?

"IMM" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
snip

My posts are above your head.

There above everyone's head,

That is about the only;y bit of sense you have said.


Well you are the only person who can understand your muttering most of the
time, so I suppose you do have a point....

"IMM" wrote in message
...


snip babble by a dysfunctional



Won't argue with that !

In article ,
IMM wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:

I have done both. Most pros will tell you plastic is no quicker
than copper. Also there is the time top replace the defective
joints after testing. They don't like it.

snip babble by a dysfunctional

You seem to have left it in...

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , IMM wrote:


"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:46:22 UTC, "IMM" wrote:

Is there any preference between straight cut ( |_| ) or 'U' shape
notches
Makes no difference.
of corse it makes a difference! a joist with a smoothly shaped "U"
will be far stronger than a straight cut slot.

nope. Regs say no problems with a straight cut. Duh!

He never mentioned the regs. But structurally, a U shape will be
stronger. Read the famous 'Structures' book...

But it still will not make any difference in this case.

But the original question was "Is there any preference between straight
cut ( |_| ) or 'U' shape notches ?". The U shape will be stronger so
would be preferable even if the regs don't require it.

--
Mike Clarke

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
snip

My posts are above your head.

There above everyone's head,

That is about the only;y bit of sense you have said.

Well you are the only person who can understand your muttering most of the
time, so I suppose you do have a point....

Exactly. You are an inferior level.

IMM wrote:

You still won't be notching a flitch beam or a RSJ though will you?


You are quoting the exception.

Aha, realisation dawns...

If you think about it there are plenty of other "only exceptions" as
well. Cases where flexible pipe is going to be a better solution:

The pipe run is near a wall, but the wall itself is supported on the
middle of the span of the joists.

The building was constructed with those composite light weight joists
that you are such a fan of, you can't notch them either.

Also situations where there is insufficent joist height evailable.

Or where there are multiple height joists in sequence - alternately
supporting a floor and a non connected ceiling in the room below (as
would be typical in a loft conversion for example).

You would have to assemble
a pipe run from lots of short segments
joined together - very time
consuming with lots of under floor joints.


No one does what you said.

Other than you is seems...


And all other sane mortals too.

Unless faced with one of the many exceptions off course....

So given the task of sticking a 22mm run of pipe across a series of
(un-notchable) joists at 400mm spacing, how are *you* going to install
it without using lots of short sections of pipe?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

You still won't be notching a flitch beam or a RSJ though will you?


You are quoting the exception.

Aha, realisation dawns...

If you think about it there are plenty of other "only exceptions" as
well. Cases where flexible pipe is going to be a better solution:

In 90% plus of installations copper is better and feasible. You making out
anomalies are the norm.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
So given the task of sticking a 22mm run of pipe across a series of
(un-notchable) joists at 400mm spacing, how are *you* going to install
it without using lots of short sections of pipe?

ISTR Adam recommending drilling the holes in line, then removing part of
the outside wall for access so a length of copper tube could be slid in.
Said it was common practice with heating professionals.

--
*When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"IMM" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
snip

That is about the only;y bit of sense you have said.

Well you are the only person who can understand your muttering most of
the
time, so I suppose you do have a point....

Exactly. You are an inferior level.


You wish !

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
snip

That is about the only;y bit of sense you have said.

Well you are the only person who can understand your muttering most of
the
time, so I suppose you do have a point....

Exactly. You are an inferior level.

You wish !

I know.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
So given the task of sticking a 22mm run of pipe across a series of
(un-notchable) joists at 400mm spacing, how are *you* going to install
it without using lots of short sections of pipe?

ISTR Adam recommending drilling the holes in line, then removing part of
the outside wall for access so a length of copper tube could be slid in.
Said it was common practice with heating professionals.

Very good 10/10. Some have been known to have removed the odd brick to do
this. Or drill through as the exterior was to be rendered anyhow.

"IMM" wrote in message
...


I know.


What exactly ?!...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
So given the task of sticking a 22mm run of pipe across a series of
(un-notchable) joists at 400mm spacing, how are *you* going to install
it without using lots of short sections of pipe?

ISTR Adam recommending drilling the holes in line, then removing part of
the outside wall for access so a length of copper tube could be slid in.
Said it was common practice with heating professionals.

Very good 10/10. Some have been known to have removed the odd brick to do
this. Or drill through as the exterior was to be rendered anyhow.


How much, said the bloke living on the 5th floor, well said IMM, it's 200
quid for the plumbing work and parts but an extra 700 quid for the
scaffolding - but it's only one extra radiator 'ther end of the room, said
the gob smacked bloke as he tore the estimate up !

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
So given the task of sticking a 22mm run of pipe across a series of
(un-notchable) joists at 400mm spacing, how are *you* going to
install
it without using lots of short sections of pipe?

ISTR Adam recommending drilling the holes in line, then removing part
of
the outside wall for access so a length of copper tube could be slid
in.
Said it was common practice with heating professionals.

Very good 10/10. Some have been known to have removed the odd brick to
do
this. Or drill through as the exterior was to be rendered anyhow.

snip tripe by a fool

The ineternet does bring them out.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip tripe by a fool

The ineternet does bring them out.


Stop talking about yourself.

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip tripe by a fool

The ineternet does bring them out.

Stop talking about yourself.

As I say, "The ineternet does bring them out."

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:59:44 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip tripe by a fool

The ineternet does bring them out.

Stop talking about yourself.

As I say, "The ineternet does bring them out."

It certainly does.......



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
IMM wrote:
The ineternet does bring them out.

Stop talking about yourself.

As I say, "The ineternet does bring them out."

So you speak as badly as you spell?

--
*How can I miss you if you won't go away?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:48:24 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:19:14 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:50:22 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message

You can use just a copper bend and plastic pushfit fittings at
either
side
of the bend.


What on earth for?

So you can have a tight bend that does not want to unbend itself.
Unless
you use unipipe.

If you use the formers supplied by the plastic plumbing
manufacturers
you can have quite a tight bend which will stay in place without
having to mess around with this.

Or better still use proper pipe. The expense of all this garbage too,
special formers and whatnot.

It's one of the tradeoffs between cost of materials vs. time taken and
between doing a job properly and bodging it.

Exactly. Copper is quicker and a proper pro job. Plastic is for the
toybox.

Sigh..... So I think we do need to get you the Maplin toolkit. Do
you want it in your stocking or for under the tree?


How much do you donate
to the rich each year?

Way too much in taxes, national insurance,
VAT, duty,.........

How much do you personally donate to the rich each year?

The Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise will give you the rates if
you ask. It's also on their web site, so I imagine that your built
in search engine would find them easily enough.

NO! I said "How much do you personally donate to the rich each year?" You
are obsessed in keeping them that way. So, how much do you personally donate
to the rich each year?

IMM wrote:

If you think about it there are plenty of other "only exceptions" as
well. Cases where flexible pipe is going to be a better solution:


In 90% plus of installations copper is better and feasible. You making out
anomalies are the norm.

Ah, so we are down from everytime to 90% now... getting better.

Yes you can traverse joists with notches in a good number of cases, so
copper is easy enough then. For the cases where you can't however there
are other solutions that are simpler to implement. Is that so difficult
to understand?

Write down "One size does not fit all" on a piece of paper, and place it
where you can see it. Make sure you read it several times a day. It will
make you a better problem solver and far less objectionable.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
IMM wrote:

The ineternet does bring them out.

Stop talking about yourself.


As I say, "The ineternet does bring them out."


So you speak as badly as you spell?

Yup, he is made from orange plastic.... his next question: "Now spell
colour"

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:25:32 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




NO! I said "How much do you personally donate to the rich each year?" You
are obsessed in keeping them that way. So, how much do you personally donate
to the rich each year?

I told you already. To me, the rich are the government and the
so-called services provided by it. They are certainly the largest
owner of resources, the least accountable in real terms and the most
incompetent at managing them.

There is no choice of whether or not one wishes to donate, and only
limited choice on how much.

The whole setup needs to be dramatically scaled down.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

[ re the British tax system ]


The whole setup needs to be dramatically scaled down.


Tax cuts are very popular..... until the service you need is done away
with...

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:34:24 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

[ re the British tax system ]


The whole setup needs to be dramatically scaled down.


Tax cuts are very popular..... until the service you need is done away
with...


With the exception of services such as defence, emergency services,
judiciary and others of that ilk, there is no need for government
involvement beyond making sure that there is directed funding for
those unable to make their own arrangements to be able to obtain them
- e.g. healthcare and education vouchers.

Beyond that, I see no reason for national or local government to have
an involvement in delivery in areas like healthcare, education and
pretty much everything else.
All of these when government operated do a poor job of customer
service and are poor value for money for the user and the taxpayer who
is funding it.,

In the 21st century we don't need universal state run healthcare
operated on a flawed 1940s model and an educational experiment that
should have ended a generation ago.

I'm completely certain that with the money that I fork over to
national and local government in various forms of tax, that I could
buy a vastly superior set of services to the various state operations
that works well when I want it and still be able to contribute into a
pot for those who are not able to do so to a far more cost effective
extent than today.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:34:24 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

[ re the British tax system ]


The whole setup needs to be dramatically scaled down.


Tax cuts are very popular..... until the service you need is done away
with...


With the exception of services such as defence, emergency services,
judiciary and others of that ilk, there is no need for government
involvement beyond making sure that there is directed funding for
those unable to make their own arrangements to be able to obtain them
- e.g. healthcare and education vouchers.

Beyond that, I see no reason for national or local government to have
an involvement in delivery in areas like healthcare, education and
pretty much everything else.
snip

As I've said to in the past, you seem to be one of those 'I'm alright, sod
you' types, the only people who would benefit form your approach are those
running the (presumably) private service companies - I'll grant that most of
the non front line structure of these HMG / LG run services need drastic
pruning but I don't see any need for HMG or LG to stop supplying the
service.

BTW, you mention education, but the biggest f*ck up has been in the last 20
years (with the national curriculum etc [1]), not that of the comprehensive
'experiment' as you call it, although I will admit that it had very many
faults (many brought about Grammar Schools and staff being forced to change.

[1] replacing out many practical subjects with ones that only produce a
frameble bit of paper but little real life skills.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:37:49 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:34:24 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
. ..

[ re the British tax system ]


The whole setup needs to be dramatically scaled down.


Tax cuts are very popular..... until the service you need is done away
with...


With the exception of services such as defence, emergency services,
judiciary and others of that ilk, there is no need for government
involvement beyond making sure that there is directed funding for
those unable to make their own arrangements to be able to obtain them
- e.g. healthcare and education vouchers.

My opinion is that ALL of the basic "core" services - water, gas,
electricity, health, defence, emergency, judiciary and
telecommunications are entirely appropriate to the public sector.

The private sector exists to make a profit rather than provide a
service - I have no problem with that. "Enhanced services", such as
the internet are fine in the private sector, where real competition
can take place "for fun".

I entirely agree with many assertations that there is a lot of
inefficiency in the public sector, but fail to see any "service"
improvement by turning to the private sector. Look, if you will, to
the privatised former public services. The recently privatised
"companies" seem to gloat about their profits, which are paid for by
Joe Public, who has no realistic alternative supplier.


--
Frank Erskine