In article ,
IMM wrote:
Then why do you always recommend
combis - regardless of whether they work
properly or not in the individual circumstances?

I recommend them when they are the ideal solution. They work well when I
recommend them. Not knowing anything you would not see this.

Perhaps you'd give me the google number of when you've *not* recommended a
combi? Or even asked anyone about their water flow rates? Or gas supply?

--
*If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Fell off the back of your van? What did the boss say?

I don't have a boss or a van. I use people like you to lift things.

Best to get people like me to do your pipework too, then...

Did you ever get that spring out of that 28mm? Perhaps it's that stopping
your system furring up rather than the electronic de-scaler?

--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Also, the distribution amplifiers in the cabinets nearest to homes are
quite cheap. Fibre distribution equipment is rather more expensive.
Then there would need to be fibre termination in the home....

But surely would be cheap enough in large quantities? After all even the
cheapest audio equipment these days has an optical link - although I don't
know how similar. I'm more your twisted pair type. ;-)

--
*Half the people in the world are below average.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:29:47 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:39:08 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:



Oh just **** off you right wing moaning ****.

There's no need to be rude.

Well stop being obnoxious yourself, when have I ever said I was a communist,

When have I ever said that I was right wing or supported any party?

you totally missed the point I was making, that there would never be the
funding for a completely nationwide fibre telecom's network as the cost is
just far to great, just as a national telephone network was pre the
formation of the GPO and HMG funding.


There are plenty of nationwide fibre networks. Many, such as the
cable TV ones reach to within a few hundred metres of the majority of
the population's homes. It is not yet economic to extend them to
every home because people are not willing to pay for the services that
would justify the investment from one end and implementation costs are
too high at the other. When and if the two meet, build out will
happen rapidly.

There isn't equality of availability of telecoms services across the
geography and never likely to be.




You wouldn't know the real world if it came along and shoved your silver
spoon so far down your throat you ended up sitting on it. One day you
might
just start thinking about those less fortunate than yourself, but I doubt
it, you to much in love with your wallet.

"I'm alright so **** the rest of you", sums you up very nicely.


You don't seem to be capable of reading what is actually said and
having an intelligent discussion about it, but prefer to come to
completely incorrect conclusions based on your prejudices.
snip the rest oif your self centered bollox

It's pot, kettle, black time it seems, take your nose out of your wallet and
you might just see the real world beyond that of share dividends and
director bonuses.

The real world *is* based on investment. Why do you think that
there is now massive foreign capital investment into infrastructure
and services in the former Warsaw Pact countries? Simple. The demise
of state control and the opening of the free market.

Where do you imagine that interest on personal investment comes from?
It isn't from a box under Gordon Brown's bed,

Neither are required to run a cost effective service, you
just need good management who don't create jobs for their 'buddies' - which
is what is happening ATM whist the front line staff are both over worked and
(mostly) under paid.

No they are not, but share dividends come as the result of
organisations being profitable, which in turn comes from satisfied
customers. Staff can be incented with stock options and even more
incented if the government were to keep its nose out of the trough of
double taxing them.








I've seen [1] the money that is wasted on back room departments within the
NHS, I've seen what is spent by those back room accounting departments on
the wards whilst they (the accounts) buy only the best for themselves - all
in the name of the internal market being run like a private business.

It is precisely for this reason that the whole thing should be shut
down. It has become a magnet for the incompetent and corrupt.

I
doubt that you have walked into the front door of an NHS hospital, let a
lone one of the back doors...

I have, into medical, surgical and A&E departments of several NHS
hospitals. They are a disgrace to a G8 country. I have seen
better A&E facilities than some in the 3rd world.



[1] working for a NHS supplier, I've also got friends who do or have worked
as front line (ward) staff.

I completely agree that the front line staff get a raw deal. Why do
you think that they are leaving in droves to countries where they get
a better one, or to the private sector? These people deserve better
conditions, and this is certainly provided in the private sector. In
numerous private hospitals that I've visited, morale is vastly better.

The state is abusing the good nature of the skilled medical staff and
that is inexcusable.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
No they are not, but share dividends come as the result of
organisations being profitable, which in turn comes from satisfied
customers. Staff can be incented with stock options and even more
incented if the government were to keep its nose out of the trough of
double taxing them.

This then must apply to others in the company? Like the board of Rover -
higher paid than those at BMW? Must be why it's so profitable. ;-)

--
*Snowmen fall from Heaven unassembled*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:22:23 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Also, the distribution amplifiers in the cabinets nearest to homes are
quite cheap. Fibre distribution equipment is rather more expensive.
Then there would need to be fibre termination in the home....

But surely would be cheap enough in large quantities?

It would depend what you are doing, but yes in principle.

If you are going to use a fibre then to make it sensible, you would
want to deliver data, telephony, video telephony, broadcast TV, video
on demand etc.

Adding fibre interfaces to telephones would make them rather expensive
and you still have to split the services apart.




After all even the
cheapest audio equipment these days has an optical link - although I don't
know how similar. I'm more your twisted pair type. ;-)

True, but the optical carries a single service or at least small range
of them.

I could see termination of a fibre being something for a home server
type of appliance which has the elements of a TV set top box with
outputs for phone and data, video handling, home automation etc.
All the technology is there to do that but it would be intially
expensive.

The question is whether people will be willing to pay for these
enhanced services. At present they seem to want £20 a month internet
connections but are willing to spend £35 to £40 on Sky subscriptions
so the content and entertainment element seems to be a big factor.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:51:09 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
No they are not, but share dividends come as the result of
organisations being profitable, which in turn comes from satisfied
customers. Staff can be incented with stock options and even more
incented if the government were to keep its nose out of the trough of
double taxing them.

This then must apply to others in the company? Like the board of Rover -
higher paid than those at BMW? Must be why it's so profitable. ;-)


I don't have a problem if senior management is well paid as long as
the goods are delivered. I completely agree that it isn't normally
appropriate for bonusses to be paid in the event of failure to meet
objectives, although some companies are in such dire straits from
their legacy that some form of protected bonus may be the only way to
attract high calibre management.

Since we are using a porcine metaphor, it is fair to point out that
the media is normally pretty effective at sniffing out this kind of
impropriety and then generally the culprits go..



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:02:40 -0000, "Owain"
wrote:

":::Jerry::::" wrote
| I did pillock.
| What, as an exam course?
| No. a brick course. Or was it the starter course.

Mmmm, deep-fried pillock and chips with sauce tartare.

| More likely a damp course.
| Might be better if it has been a 'foundation course', IMM
| giving a practical demonstration of his abilities.....

Dear god no, don't let him near foundations.

Owain

PS Very interesting article on German houses in one of the self build mags
in WHSmiths at the moment.

Don't let him get one - the pages would stick together.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Owain" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote
snip

| More likely a damp course.
| Might be better if it has been a 'foundation course', IMM
| giving a practical demonstration of his abilities.....

Dear god no, don't let him near foundations.


Sorry but you are all taking this far to seriously, think more in terms of
'The Mob' and Motorways !...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:51:09 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
No they are not, but share dividends come as the result of
organisations being profitable, which in turn comes from satisfied
customers. Staff can be incented with stock options and even more
incented if the government were to keep its nose out of the trough of
double taxing them.

This then must apply to others in the company? Like the board of Rover -
higher paid than those at BMW? Must be why it's so profitable. ;-)

I don't have a problem if senior management is well paid as long as
the goods are delivered.

It rarely is. Many people in the US are concerned that failure and
mediocrity is being over rewarded. 15 years ago the top managers in the US
earned 30 times the average salary, now it is 300 times. 15 years ago they
were rewarded by bonuses. Now failure and meritocracy get paid a fortune.
Many see commerce and industry standards to fall.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:29:47 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:39:08 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:



Oh just **** off you right wing moaning ****.

There's no need to be rude.

Well stop being obnoxious yourself, when have I ever said I was a
communist,

When have I ever said that I was right wing or supported any party?

Your veiws certainly are, even if your party politics aren't, as I said even
Thatcher baulked at sych an idea - and it was considered.


you totally missed the point I was making, that there would never be the
funding for a completely nationwide fibre telecom's network as the cost
is
just far to great, just as a national telephone network was pre the
formation of the GPO and HMG funding.


There are plenty of nationwide fibre networks. Many, such as the
cable TV ones reach to within a few hundred metres of the majority of
the population's homes.

Unless you live in another country (or planet) I would suggest that you mean
a *minority*, more 'area miles' don't have a cable TV option than do -
hardly nationwide, unlike the old GPO telecom's system.

It is not yet economic to extend them to
every home because people are not willing to pay for the services that

Nore was it 'economic' to extend the GPO telecom's network to 99 percent of
homes and bussinesses when it was done.

would justify the investment from one end and implementation costs are
too high at the other. When and if the two meet, build out will
happen rapidly.

Under market forces it will never happen, people will just carry on using
current technoligy.


There isn't equality of availability of telecoms services across the
geography and never likely to be.


Sorry but at the basic level, everyone who want's a fix phone line,
broadband access, must almost be around 98 percent now, the only people who
are suffering from a lack of service are thoses who live in remote /
underpopulated areas - this is not the case with services like cable tv and
related services.




You wouldn't know the real world if it came along and shoved your
silver
spoon so far down your throat you ended up sitting on it. One day you
might
just start thinking about those less fortunate than yourself, but I
doubt
it, you to much in love with your wallet.

"I'm alright so **** the rest of you", sums you up very nicely.


You don't seem to be capable of reading what is actually said and
having an intelligent discussion about it, but prefer to come to
completely incorrect conclusions based on your prejudices.
snip the rest oif your self centered bollox

It's pot, kettle, black time it seems, take your nose out of your wallet
and
you might just see the real world beyond that of share dividends and
director bonuses.

The real world *is* based on investment. Why do you think that
there is now massive foreign capital investment into infrastructure
and services in the former Warsaw Pact countries? Simple. The demise
of state control and the opening of the free market.

Where do you imagine that interest on personal investment comes from?
It isn't from a box under Gordon Brown's bed,


No, the likely hood of huge profits, that is the business real world that
should be second to the real world of society (peoples lives), but then
accountants now costs a persons life - sometimes to the point of it being
cheaper to pay off an injury than modify the process, sad but true.


Neither are required to run a cost effective service, you
just need good management who don't create jobs for their 'buddies' -
which
is what is happening ATM whist the front line staff are both over worked
and
(mostly) under paid.

No they are not, but share dividends come as the result of
organisations being profitable, which in turn comes from satisfied
customers.

But why pay the dividends / bonuses, why not re invest / pay meaningful
wages, other than greed, share holders will still make money as the value of
their shares rise with the worth of the company. You describe the perfect
company, and if the staff are being paid a meaningful wage and re-investment
is occurring all well and good, but the trouble is that human greed takes
over many of those who decided on such matters - like Rover (and yes I know
they put their own bricks and mortar on the line to raise the capitol but
they are now racking in far in excess of what they should be considering the
state / worth of the business)....

Staff can be incented with stock options and even more
incented if the government were to keep its nose out of the trough of
double taxing them.


But were is the value in giving staff share options, in most large companies
they have no real control over board-room matters (even if they own shares)
so unless they sell their share options they are no better off and if the
board make a bum decision then the value of those share options could be
worth a lot less.




I've seen [1] the money that is wasted on back room departments within
the
NHS, I've seen what is spent by those back room accounting departments on
the wards whilst they (the accounts) buy only the best for themselves -
all
in the name of the internal market being run like a private business.

It is precisely for this reason that the whole thing should be shut
down. It has become a magnet for the incompetent and corrupt.


Because it has been run as a private company, the same would happen to a
private health service, you only need to look at what has happened in the
USA. Medical treatment coasts are *far* higher than they are here because
all involved have allowed greed to overtake, there are unnecessary
procedures being carried out (and have almost become the expected norm) just
because they are chargeable procedures.

I
doubt that you have walked into the front door of an NHS hospital, let a
lone one of the back doors...

I have, into medical, surgical and A&E departments of several NHS
hospitals. They are a disgrace to a G8 country. I have seen
better A&E facilities than some in the 3rd world.


Yes, and who is to blame, management. There is no need chuck the child out
with the bath water...



[1] working for a NHS supplier, I've also got friends who do or have
worked
as front line (ward) staff.

I completely agree that the front line staff get a raw deal. Why do
you think that they are leaving in droves to countries where they get
a better one, or to the private sector? These people deserve better
conditions, and this is certainly provided in the private sector.

No it is not always, and as you say, those who can supply a cheaper service
will get the business in your version of health care....

In
numerous private hospitals that I've visited, morale is vastly better.

Give proper wages and condition to NHS staff and morale will be vastly
better to....


The state is abusing the good nature of the skilled medical staff and
that is inexcusable.


No, the state is not, accountants an politicians are.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:40:42 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

snip

We don't need managers
to price every band aid.

I don't disagree with that, but it doesn't mean that blank cheques can
be written.


Far more 'blank cheques' get written in the medical insurance type health
care than there are in public 'service' health care, any money making
business will always push the billing boundaries and they will tend to
follow each other thus driving up the health care costs - this is what has
all but brought the USA Medicare system to it's knee's.

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Owain" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote
snip

| More likely a damp course.
| Might be better if it has been a 'foundation course', IMM
| giving a practical demonstration of his abilities.....

Dear god no, don't let him near foundations.

Sorry but you are all taking this far to seriously, think more in terms of
'The Mob' and Motorways !...

They have tried that with me and were defeated.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Owain" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote
snip

| More likely a damp course.
| Might be better if it has been a 'foundation course', IMM
| giving a practical demonstration of his abilities.....

Dear god no, don't let him near foundations.

Sorry but you are all taking this far to seriously, think more in terms
of
'The Mob' and Motorways !...

They have tried that with me and were defeated.


Now, what makes me actually believe that ?!...

"Andy Hall" wrote
| There are plenty of nationwide fibre networks. Many, such as
| the cable TV ones reach to within a few hundred metres of the
| majority of the population's homes.

Cable modem services are *available* to 45% of UK homes and businesses.

Cable networks pass around 50% of UK homes. At present, 46% of UK homes
(around 11.5 million) are passed by broadband enabled cable.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/research/con...lecoms/int_bba
nd_updt/may2004/

Even within 'cabled' areas, it can be impossible to get new cable
connections if the cable does not run right outside the house.

Gas and sewerage connections can also be expensive or impossible to get.

| There isn't equality of availability of telecoms services
| across the geography and never likely to be.

The old ethos of the telephone network was that each additional connection
benefited everyone already on the system, so installation costs were set at
a standard rate and subsidised, and to a large extent still are, under the
Universal Service Obligation. So there is (almost complete) equality of
availability of basic telephony service.

Owain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
Then why do you always recommend
combis - regardless of whether they work
properly or not in the individual circumstances?

I recommend them when they are the ideal solution. They work well when
I
recommend them. Not knowing anything you would not see this.

Perhaps you'd give me the google number of when you've *not* recommended a
combi? Or even asked anyone about their water flow rates? Or gas supply?

How are your yellow boots? Dirty in the rain?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
Fell off the back of your van? What did the boss say?

I don't have a boss or a van. I use people like you to lift things.

Best to get people like me
to do your pipework too,

No. Intelligent peo;pel do that, you do the lifting.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:29:47 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:39:08 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:



Oh just **** off you right wing moaning ****.

There's no need to be rude.

Well stop being obnoxious yourself, when have I ever said I was a
communist,

When have I ever said that I was right wing or supported any party?

Cor blimey!!! This one is so brainwashed right wing it is beyond belief.
He thinks it will benefit him and him only. Also he hates the poor for
being poor.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:40:42 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




It was fine until the wicked witch and her disfunctional family came
about.

Cherie's not all bad.......


I recall one idiot Tory MP on TV slagging them because they didn't
know
the
cost of say an appendix operation. So they brought in tons of
managers
to
cost it all up. The costings were to prepare for privatisation as
companies
only understand money figures. The NHS, quite rightly said we don't
need
to
know the cost.

Of course they need to know the cost,

They don't. It has to be paid for, so bloody what.

The 'bloody what' is that this is tax payer's money and should be
spent responsibly.

It is. They sped it on the ops. It has to be spent irrespective. You do
think they should have value ranges of ops? Some ops using better scalpels?

What a dumbo!

We don't need managers
to price every band aid.

I don't disagree with that, but it doesn't
mean that blank cheques can
be written.

No blank cheque. They need the equipment and medicines for the ops so they
get it. It is as simple as that. It doesn't need an army of Thatcher's
managers to figure out every item that was spent because it has to be spent
any way.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
":::Jerry::::" wrote
| I did pillock.
| What, as an exam course?
| No. a brick course. Or was it the starter course.

Mmmm, deep-fried pillock and chips with sauce tartare.

| More likely a damp course.
| Might be better if it has been a 'foundation course', IMM
| giving a practical demonstration of his abilities.....

Dear god no, don't let him near foundations.

Owain

PS Very interesting article on German houses in one of the self build mags
in WHSmiths at the moment.

Which mag and which house?

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Best to get people like me to do your pipework too,

No. Intelligent peo;pel do that, you do the lifting.

Are you typing this while driving your delivery van?

--
*Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:21:54 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:40:42 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

snip

We don't need managers
to price every band aid.

I don't disagree with that, but it doesn't mean that blank cheques can
be written.


Far more 'blank cheques' get written in the medical insurance type health
care than there are in public 'service' health care, any money making
business will always push the billing boundaries and they will tend to
follow each other thus driving up the health care costs - this is what has
all but brought the USA Medicare system to it's knee's.

No because prices for each procedure would be prenegotiated.

As it is, the UK medical insurance companies have consultant codes,
hospital codes and procedure codes and the figures are very well
defined.

All that is necessary is for a much slimmed down Department of Health
to agree prices with the healthcare providers and that is that.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:50:59 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


Of course they need to know the cost,

They don't. It has to be paid for, so bloody what.

The 'bloody what' is that this is tax payer's money and should be
spent responsibly.

It is. They sped it on the ops. It has to be spent irrespective. You do
think they should have value ranges of ops? Some ops using better scalpels?

What a dumbo!

You're the dumbo. Both the private and public sector work with
costs against each procedure, expected length of stay etc.
Of course it's costed.


We don't need managers
to price every band aid.

I don't disagree with that, but it doesn't
mean that blank cheques can
be written.

No blank cheque. They need the equipment and medicines for the ops so they
get it. It is as simple as that. It doesn't need an army of Thatcher's
managers to figure out every item that was spent because it has to be spent
any way.

Of course it doesn't. All that is required is an agreed set of
pricing for each procedure negotiated between a much reduced
Department of Health and private healthcare providers.

This arrangement has existed between medical insurers (who provide the
funding for the treatment) and the private sector hospitals for years
and works very well.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:28:30 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:51:09 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
No they are not, but share dividends come as the result of
organisations being profitable, which in turn comes from satisfied
customers. Staff can be incented with stock options and even more
incented if the government were to keep its nose out of the trough of
double taxing them.

This then must apply to others in the company? Like the board of Rover -
higher paid than those at BMW? Must be why it's so profitable. ;-)

I don't have a problem if senior management is well paid as long as
the goods are delivered.

It rarely is. Many people in the US are concerned that failure and
mediocrity is being over rewarded. 15 years ago the top managers in the US
earned 30 times the average salary, now it is 300 times. 15 years ago they
were rewarded by bonuses. Now failure and meritocracy get paid a fortune.
Many see commerce and industry standards to fall.

The market decides that. If customers like what a company is
providing, then they buy. If investors see a good return because the
company is well run and doing what the customers want then they
invest. Otherwise both walk away and the business fails.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

I live in a town, between two cities, bt cannot supply
broadband as I'm too far from the exchange (nearest is under 2 miles
away, but the cable route is much longer), NTL supply cable+modem.


I would check that, AIUI BT have delimited their 512k service and increased
the allowable distance for the 1mb service. Equipment limitations still
apply.

They have allowed something like an extra 20dB SNR, which while not
delimiting the service totally, it does extend the range quite a bit.
Have a look at the checker he-

http://www.bt.com/broadband/

Ironically you may still fail to get it if your line has any fibre
sections it it! (ADSL needs copper).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andy Hall wrote:
I could see termination of a fibre being something for a home server
type of appliance which has the elements of a TV set top box with
outputs for phone and data, video handling, home automation etc.
All the technology is there to do that but it would be intially
expensive.

The question is whether people will be willing to pay for these
enhanced services. At present they seem to want £20 a month internet
connections but are willing to spend £35 to £40 on Sky subscriptions
so the content and entertainment element seems to be a big factor.

HDTV seems to be a trigger in other countries, but here in the uk I'm
not so sure, I live in a town, between two cities, bt cannot supply
broadband as I'm too far from the exchange (nearest is under 2 miles
away, but the cable route is much longer), NTL supply cable+modem.

I understand the NTL system is partial fibre, and if the cost was
reasonable I'd have FTTP, but the difficulty is the fibre
handling/install costs, having worked on deep sea fibre and working on
fibre now I can understand the issues with the barely skilled 'customer'
install teams and fibre. So what would it take,
interconnected/intergrated fire sensors (insurers/council buy in) or
something more???

Badger.

"Badger" wrote in message
...

snip
I live in a town, between two cities, bt cannot supply
broadband as I'm too far from the exchange (nearest is under 2 miles
away, but the cable route is much longer), NTL supply cable+modem.

I would check that, AIUI BT have delimited their 512k service and increased
the allowable distance for the 1mb service. Equipment limitations still
apply.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:28:30 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:51:09 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
No they are not, but share dividends come as the result of
organisations being profitable, which in turn comes from satisfied
customers. Staff can be incented with stock options and even more
incented if the government were to keep its nose out of the trough
of
double taxing them.

This then must apply to others in the company? Like the board of
Rover -
higher paid than those at BMW? Must be why it's so profitable. ;-)

I don't have a problem if senior management is well paid as long as
the goods are delivered.

It rarely is. Many people in the US are concerned that failure and
mediocrity is being over rewarded. 15 years ago the top managers in the
US
earned 30 times the average salary, now it is 300 times. 15 years ago
they
were rewarded by bonuses. Now failure and meritocracy get paid a
fortune.
Many see commerce and industry standards to fall.

The market decides that. If customers like what a company is
providing, then they buy. If investors see a good return because the
company is well run and doing what the customers want then they
invest. Otherwise both walk away and the business fails.

That is superficial nonsense. Experts are looking at industry and see
decline, which is nothing to do with buying a product from elsewhere,
although many people are doing that with Rover. They see most products
declining as the fat cats cream off.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:50:59 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


Of course they need to know the cost,

They don't. It has to be paid for, so bloody what.

The 'bloody what' is that this is tax payer's money and should be
spent responsibly.

It is. They sped it on the ops. It has to be spent irrespective. You do
think they should have value ranges of ops? Some ops using better
scalpels?

What a dumbo!

You're the dumbo. Both the private and public sector work with
costs against each procedure, expected length of stay etc.
Of course it's costed.


We don't need managers
to price every band aid.

I don't disagree with that, but it doesn't
mean that blank cheques can
be written.

No blank cheque. They need the equipment and medicines for the ops so
they
get it. It is as simple as that. It doesn't need an army of Thatcher's
managers to figure out every item that was spent because it has to be
spent
any way.

Of course it doesn't. All that is required is

snip

All that is required is to get the management tiers Thatcher put in, out of
the NHS. They sap money, lots of it. The NHS is not in competition, but is
run that way.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip

All that is required is to get the management tiers Thatcher put in, out
of
the NHS. They sap money, lots of it. The NHS is not in competition, but
is
run that way.


And the really daft part is they compete against other NHS Hospitals /
Trusts, just to allow accountants to make work for more accountants - or so
it seems at times, and every new department needs their plush offices,
whilst the wards make do....

And with that I'm now going to retire gracefully from this OT sub thread, I
think it's time we all agreed to disagree - over to others to have the last
word(s).

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:13:12 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




All that is required is to get the management tiers Thatcher put in, out of
the NHS. They sap money, lots of it. The NHS is not in competition, but is
run that way.

This is one of the big problems. It should be, but isn't.
Firstly, those who should be attempting to run it properly clearly
don't know, don't care or both.
Secondly, the politicians are unwilling or unable to correct the
issue.
Thirdly the competition is stifled by quadruple taxation for those
wishing to go to the competition.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:10:09 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message

The market decides that. If customers like what a company is
providing, then they buy. If investors see a good return because the
company is well run and doing what the customers want then they
invest. Otherwise both walk away and the business fails.

That is superficial nonsense. Experts are looking at industry and see
decline, which is nothing to do with buying a product from elsewhere,

Which "experts". Name a few.


although many people are doing that with Rover. They see most products
declining as the fat cats cream off.


People buy elsewhere when the supplier doesn't provide the wanted
goods or services at the right price.

On the one hand people want things cheaply. Price is everything to
some people. That is delivered by having manufacturing in China and
administration in India.

It lasts until people decide thay don't like the quality that they get
in a cheap Chinese product, or the lack of UK understanding of a call
centre person in Mumbai and decide that they are willing to pay more
for better product or to talk to somebody closer to home.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:10:09 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message

The market decides that. If customers like what a company is
providing, then they buy. If investors see a good return because the
company is well run and doing what the customers want then they
invest. Otherwise both walk away and the business fails.

That is superficial nonsense. Experts are looking at industry and see
decline, which is nothing to do with buying a product from elsewhere,

Which "experts". Name a few.

Read the financial press. The money programmes had whole prog on it
recently.

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:06:44 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:10:09 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message

The market decides that. If customers like what a company is
providing, then they buy. If investors see a good return because the
company is well run and doing what the customers want then they
invest. Otherwise both walk away and the business fails.

That is superficial nonsense. Experts are looking at industry and see
decline, which is nothing to do with buying a product from elsewhere,

Which "experts". Name a few.

Read the financial press. The money programmes had whole prog on it
recently.


How. That's a quality source of information. Almost as good as
Paxo.

--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

Thirdly the competition is stifled by quadruple taxation for those
wishing to go to the competition.


But then that *is* personal choice, no one has to use private health
insurance - unlike if the NHS was no longer in existence....

That really is my last word.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:06:44 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

snip

Read the financial press. The money programmes had whole prog on it
recently.


How. That's a quality source of information.

Well it's slightly more balanced than the Torygraph or The Sun !

Almost as good as
Paxo.


You haven't forgiven him for showing the then Home sec. up to be the jerk he
was at that time by the looks of it.....

Capitol,

Can you use a 5A socket? Just a thought, or an IEC socket.

Thanks for the suggestions. Can you get a surface-mount-type IEC socket?
I'll investigate...

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

In article , "Bert
Coules" says...
Capitol,

Can you use a 5A socket? Just a thought, or an IEC socket.

Thanks for the suggestions. Can you get a surface-mount-type IEC socket?
I'll investigate...



Something like this in a suitable enclosu

maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=1361&TabID=1&source=15&WorldI D=3

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:06:44 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

snip

Read the financial press. The money
programmes had whole prog on it
recently.

How. That's a quality source of information.

Well it's slightly more balanced than
the Torygraph or The Sun !

Almost as good as Paxo.

You haven't forgiven him for showing the then Home sec. up to be the jerk
he
was at that time by the looks of it.....

You mean Dracula. How can anyone vote for a party with Boris and Dracula in
it.

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:29:41 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
snip

Thirdly the competition is stifled by quadruple taxation for those
wishing to go to the competition.


But then that *is* personal choice, no one has to use private health
insurance - unlike if the NHS was no longer in existence....

One does if one wants anything like an acceptable level of service at
this point. The NHS doesn't deliver that in terms of either quality
or convenience to the customer.

I have not advocated private *funding*, simply private delivery.

As far as the funding aspect is concerned, I don't think that it is
reasonable for those who are typically large contributors to the pot
to be additionally penalised with quadruple taxation in order to
access the level of service required.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl