No doubt others have had the same problem but I would be interested to know
their experiences. I ordered some items that were promised for delivery
today. When I checked the status this morning they have not even been
shipped. I phoned Screwfix and was told they had been shipped today and the
anticipated delivery was today. When I challenged this they stated that this
was only a delivery estimate even though they knew it was wrong!

Any suggestions for alternative suppliers?

Peter Crosland

Any suggestions for alternative suppliers?

www.toolstation.co.uk. ;-)

Christian.

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
No doubt others have had the same problem but I would be interested to
know
their experiences. I ordered some items that were promised for delivery
today. When I checked the status this morning they have not even been
shipped. I phoned Screwfix and was told they had been shipped today and
the
anticipated delivery was today. When I challenged this they stated that
this
was only a delivery estimate even though they knew it was wrong!

Any suggestions for alternative suppliers?


Get off you but and go to a local 'merchant' ? HTF do you expect someone to
say anymore unless you tell us what you need ?!... Doh

I placed my first order with them yesterday. When I checked progress their
website said it had been delivered. Further checking showed that the order
reference related to an order delivered to a customer 150 miles away in
February! When I queried this I got nowhere. Any other suggestions?

Further checking showed that the order reference related to an order
delivered to a customer 150 miles away in February! When I queried
this I got nowhere. Any other suggestions?

Yes, the courier's tracking website is a bit odd, isn't it. They appear to
reuse parcel numbers. If you wait, the new one will appear shortly.

Christian.

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
I placed my first order with them yesterday. When I checked progress their
website said it had been delivered. Further checking showed that the order
reference related to an order delivered to a customer 150 miles away in
February! When I queried this I got nowhere. Any other suggestions?


How about getting off your butt and using a local supplier, or do you only
want to live in a world of mail order within 5 years ?!...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
No doubt others have had the same problem but I would be interested to
know
their experiences. I ordered some items that were promised for delivery
today. When I checked the status this morning they have not even been
shipped. I phoned Screwfix and was told they had been shipped today and
the
anticipated delivery was today. When I challenged this they stated that
this
was only a delivery estimate even though they knew it was wrong!

Any suggestions for alternative suppliers?


Get off you but and go to a local 'merchant' ? HTF do you expect someone
to
say anymore unless you tell us what you need ?!... Doh

Jerry,
Have you ever thought of getting of your butt and seeing a Doctor? He may be
able to treat your aggression.

"mackem" wrote in message
.. .

snip
Have you ever thought of getting of your butt and seeing a Doctor? He may
be
able to treat your aggression.


Have you ever needed treatment for verbal diarrhoea brought on by ignorance
?....

Yes, the courier's tracking website is a bit odd, isn't it. They appear to
reuse parcel numbers. If you wait, the new one will appear shortly.

That was my conclusion. Still the parcel arrived which is the main thing. I
see the Screwfix site just has a holding page until they start taking orders
again. Talk about being in the brown and sticky!

"mackem" wrote in message
.. .

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
No doubt others have had the same problem but I would be interested to
know
their experiences. I ordered some items that were promised for delivery
today. When I checked the status this morning they have not even been
shipped. I phoned Screwfix and was told they had been shipped today and
the
anticipated delivery was today. When I challenged this they stated that
this
was only a delivery estimate even though they knew it was wrong!

Any suggestions for alternative suppliers?


Get off you but and go to a local 'merchant' ? HTF do you expect someone
to
say anymore unless you tell us what you need ?!... Doh

Jerry,
Have you ever thought of getting of your butt and seeing a Doctor? He may
be
able to treat your aggression.


Ok, I guess Jerry may have put it in a slightly better way, but he does have
a point. I have a hardware shop 2 minutes walk from the house and it is
bloody useful. Popping over on a sunday morning for almost anything is a
luxury that I find useful. I hardly ever go to the sheds now.
But, in 5 years time, it will all be mail order, so unless you want Rays
Hardware (and all the other little ones) to shut, you gotta start using
them.

Mikw

Mike Hibbert wrote:
"mackem" wrote in message
.. .

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
No doubt others have had the same problem but I would be
interested to know their experiences. I ordered some items that
were promised for delivery today. When I checked the status this
morning they have not even been shipped. I phoned Screwfix and was
told they had been shipped today and the anticipated delivery was
today. When I challenged this they stated that this was only a
delivery estimate even though they knew it was wrong!

Any suggestions for alternative suppliers?


Get off you but and go to a local 'merchant' ? HTF do you expect
someone to
say anymore unless you tell us what you need ?!... Doh

Jerry,
Have you ever thought of getting of your butt and seeing a Doctor?
He may be able to treat your aggression.


Ok, I guess Jerry may have put it in a slightly better way, but he
does have a point. I have a hardware shop 2 minutes walk from the
house and it is bloody useful. Popping over on a sunday morning for
almost anything is a luxury that I find useful. I hardly ever go to
the sheds now.
But, in 5 years time, it will all be mail order, so unless you want
Rays Hardware (and all the other little ones) to shut, you gotta
start using them.

We had a proper hardware shop in the village, knowledgeable staff and a good
choice of stock. The problem was they only opened 3 1/2 days a week and
closed for an hour at lunchtime so it was always hit and miss as to whether
they'd be open when you needed to go there.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

Ok, I guess Jerry may have put it in a slightly better way, but he does
have
a point. I have a hardware shop 2 minutes walk from the house and it is
bloody useful. Popping over on a sunday morning for almost anything is a
luxury that I find useful. I hardly ever go to the sheds now.

What hasn't occurred to either of you is that there are large numbers of
people who, for numerous reasons, don't have access to the sort of
convenient shop that you do.

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
Ok, I guess Jerry may have put it in a slightly better way, but he does
have
a point. I have a hardware shop 2 minutes walk from the house and it is
bloody useful. Popping over on a sunday morning for almost anything is a
luxury that I find useful. I hardly ever go to the sheds now.

What hasn't occurred to either of you is that there are large numbers of
people who, for numerous reasons, don't have access to the sort of
convenient shop that you do.


My original remark wasn't just about the use of sheds but the "Tell me were
I can get what I need" sort of question without telling us WHAT you need,
could be anything from a tap-washer to a full house re-fit for all we know
!....

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:16:49 GMT, "Mike Hibbert"
wrote:



Ok, I guess Jerry may have put it in a slightly better way, but he does have
a point. I have a hardware shop 2 minutes walk from the house and it is
bloody useful. Popping over on a sunday morning for almost anything is a
luxury that I find useful. I hardly ever go to the sheds now.
But, in 5 years time, it will all be mail order, so unless you want Rays
Hardware (and all the other little ones) to shut, you gotta start using
them.

Mikw


I suspect that you are the fortunate exception.

If I want to find a hardware shop like that, I have to drive into the
adjacent market town where there is one in the centre.
If I can find a parking space, I'm lucky, otherwise I have to wait
until somebody leaves or drive all round the one way system to another
car park which may also be full and in eiother case pay 40p to park.

It is not that large, but has a reasonable selection of things at high
prices in small packs - typically about 2x B&Q price, and nothing of
particularly good quality. It's closed on Sundays.

In the same amount of time, I can have gone to a Focus as long as I
can steel myself not to kill the surly teenagers that work there, and
the woman who wants me to buy double glazing with 50% off - she
doesn;t know what it's 50% off from, just that it's 50% off. That at
least has a broader selection, although again, nothing of particularly
good quality. Slightly further away, there's a Homebase and a
Wickes, neither of which are inspiring.

Half an hour away, as long as the local football team isn't playing
and I can stand the smell of sewage, there's a B&Q which at least has
most of what one would need for the majority of jobs without having to
waste time roaming from place to place.

In the context of that, ordering what I need from Screwfix et al.
early in the week, even if I'm travelling, and having it all waiting
ready for the weekend is quite appealing in terms of time saved.

The local little shop would do far better if it had some quality
and/or differentiated product lines. People would go there for
that. As it is, it is clear that the business is in a slow decline
and the owner seems unwilling to make changes.

When it inevitably closes, which I am sure will happen in the next few
years because there is hardly ever anybody in there, it won't be
missed.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Agree totally with Andy.
I would love to use the local hardware shop - but can't afford to.

As an example I needed a 60 watt ES lamp, 99p each in the hardware shop!
£1.67 for 10 in Screwfix, 45p per 2 in Asda.

Multiply that by the fact that I'm working my way through re-furbishing the
whole house and the money saved runs into thousands!
I also love the fact that I can get home in the evenings, have my tea, then
place an order on the PC whilst the wife watches some old tosh on the TV!
The goods are delivered in a couple of days for me to get on with the work!

I remember the days when Screwfix were reliable, I'm starting to look at the
alternatives too. Are Toolstation okay?


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 29/10/2004

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news snip

The local little shop would do far better if it had some quality
and/or differentiated product lines. People would go there for
that. As it is, it is clear that the business is in a slow decline
and the owner seems unwilling to make changes.

And why is it, if people bought form them perhaps they would stock more...
As for the "business is in a slow decline", I'm nor surprised if no one buys
for them !


When it inevitably closes, which I am sure will happen in the next few
years because there is hardly ever anybody in there, it won't be
missed.


Until such time that you haven't got that screw (or what ever) and you need
it now and not when ever SF or TS decide to deliver it.

"Doctor D" wrote in message
...
Agree totally with Andy.

But his point was really about location or stock level, not price as such...

I would love to use the local hardware shop - but can't afford to.

As an example I needed a 60 watt ES lamp, 99p each in the hardware shop!
£1.67 for 10 in Screwfix, 45p per 2 in Asda.

Have you asked the price in a (shock horror) electrical wholesalers /
factors ?...


Multiply that by the fact that I'm working my way through re-furbishing
the
whole house and the money saved runs into thousands!

Have you asked for prices in a (shock horror) builders merchant etc. ?...

I also love the fact that I can get home in the evenings, have my tea,
then
place an order on the PC whilst the wife watches some old tosh on the TV!
The goods are delivered in a couple of days for me to get on with the
work!


Ah, now we get to the truth, you know the price of light bulbs in Asda
because you (or more likely your wife) has to go there so you can eat, and
ordering 'on-line' means that you don't have to get off your butt at the
weekend (or when ever)...

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..

In the context of that, ordering what I need from Screwfix et al.
early in the week, even if I'm travelling, and having it all waiting
ready for the weekend is quite appealing in terms of time saved.



Absolutely. ...and it often costs a fraction of the price from the sheds etc.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:03:22 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news snip

The local little shop would do far better if it had some quality
and/or differentiated product lines. People would go there for
that. As it is, it is clear that the business is in a slow decline
and the owner seems unwilling to make changes.

And why is it, if people bought form them perhaps they would stock more...
As for the "business is in a slow decline", I'm nor surprised if no one buys
for them !

The problem is not the quantity of stock - they have limited space -
but the profile of what they have.

They operate as though there is no competition for 50km and sell a
small subset of what can be obtained in any shed but at higher price
and typically poorer quality tat.

Really they are totally missing the plot. Any business needs to
offer what its customers want to buy and at the price and level of
convenience that suits them. Either that or they have to spend a
massive amount on marketing to convince people that they want to buy
what's on offer - not an option ofr the small shopkeeper.

The smart move would be to offer better quality items than the sheds
or things that can't be found in them. It's a reasonably affluent
area and people would take the trouble to go to the town centre if
there was something worth having. As it is, they have a price,
product, parking and time disadvantage and are on a loser all the way
round.




When it inevitably closes, which I am sure will happen in the next few
years because there is hardly ever anybody in there, it won't be
missed.


Until such time that you haven't got that screw (or what ever) and you need
it now and not when ever SF or TS decide to deliver it.

I've never had any critical delivery problems with any of the online
suppliers.

For the odd thing I can go to the shed. The only issue that I have
is that all the stores irritatingly have restricted Sunday opening
hours.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:04:16 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Doctor D" wrote in message
...
Agree totally with Andy.

But his point was really about location or stock level, not price as such...

I would love to use the local hardware shop - but can't afford to.

As an example I needed a 60 watt ES lamp, 99p each in the hardware shop!
£1.67 for 10 in Screwfix, 45p per 2 in Asda.

Have you asked the price in a (shock horror) electrical wholesalers /
factors ?...

I work on a quality, volume and price criterion.

If I am going to do a substantial electrical project, then I'll make
my list and go along to WF or Newey and Eyre and get a reasonable deal
on (for example) MK wiring accessories - I don't buy the cheap stuff.
If I want just one plate switch and I am not going in that direction,
then I'll probably get one from Focus etc. It'll probably cost £2
more, but I would have saved that in time and fuel and waiting to be
served.

The same goes for plumbing materials.

On timber I'm more selective, but buy sawn and plane and size it
myself anyway.




Multiply that by the fact that I'm working my way through re-furbishing
the
whole house and the money saved runs into thousands!

Have you asked for prices in a (shock horror) builders merchant etc. ?...

I also love the fact that I can get home in the evenings, have my tea,
then
place an order on the PC whilst the wife watches some old tosh on the TV!
The goods are delivered in a couple of days for me to get on with the
work!


Ah, now we get to the truth, you know the price of light bulbs in Asda
because you (or more likely your wife) has to go there so you can eat, and
ordering 'on-line' means that you don't have to get off your butt at the
weekend (or when ever)...


It's a matter of time and convenience. One could spend half of
Saturday trailing around wholesalers for bits and pieces. I don't
think it's worth it for small purchases. To me, time and convenience
is far more critical than saving the last penny.

I tend to plan my projects two or three weeks ahead and buy in the
items that I will need if I don't already have them. Most of that is
online from various sources or trips to the wholesalers at times that
I know they won't be busy.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:03:22 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news snip

The local little shop would do far better if it had some quality
and/or differentiated product lines. People would go there for
that. As it is, it is clear that the business is in a slow decline
and the owner seems unwilling to make changes.

And why is it, if people bought form them perhaps they would stock
more...
As for the "business is in a slow decline", I'm nor surprised if no one
buys
for them !

The problem is not the quantity of stock - they have limited space -
but the profile of what they have.

They operate as though there is no competition for 50km and sell a
small subset of what can be obtained in any shed but at higher price
and typically poorer quality tat.

Yes, because their customer base is lower, but therir costs are the same if
1 person uses the shop or a 1000 use it, the fact that they have less
customers means that they *have* to charge more to those who either don't
worry about price or those who can't use a 'shed' for what ever reason.

snip

For the odd thing I can go to the shed. The only issue that I have
is that all the stores irritatingly have restricted Sunday opening
hours.

Very true, I really can't see why people object to the 24/7 society...

Have you asked the price in a (shock horror) electrical wholesalers /
factors ?...

No, I'm happy with the price at Screwfix etc, and I don't have time and
inclination to trawl around wholesalers as long as I know the price I'm
paying is not well over the odds. Oh, and I also live in rural
Worcestershire where shopping around means big miles!


Multiply that by the fact that I'm working my way through re-furbishing
the
whole house and the money saved runs into thousands!

Have you asked for prices in a (shock horror) builders merchant etc. ?...

See above response! Although I will usually call a timber merchants or
builders yard to see whether the price is way off the mark.

I also love the fact that I can get home in the evenings, have my tea,
then
place an order on the PC whilst the wife watches some old tosh on the
TV!
The goods are delivered in a couple of days for me to get on with the
work!


Ah, now we get to the truth, you know the price of light bulbs in Asda
because you (or more likely your wife) has to go there so you can eat, and
ordering 'on-line' means that you don't have to get off your butt at the
weekend (or when ever)...

Not sure why it took you so long to get to the truth......
You're partly right. We shop on line at Tesco.com so that I don't have to
get off my butt even to buy food after spending the day working off my butt!
I had to call in to Adsa to collect something, and was pleased to see ES
lamps at a good price, AND good value GE rough service lamps, which I never
thought I'd see in a supermarket. I tend to spend all weekend (and most
evenings) off my butt doing up the house.
In reality Jerry, you're happy with going into shops and buying your bits &
pieces, and I'm happy sitting at home doing the same thing. You're probably
getting better service from your local man then I am from Screwfix at the
moment, and what you're saving by shopping around, I'm probably saving in
time and diesel.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 29/10/2004

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..

The local little shop would do far better if it had some quality
and/or differentiated product lines. People would go there for
that. As it is, it is clear that the business is in a slow decline
and the owner seems unwilling to make changes.

When it inevitably closes, which I am sure will happen in the next few
years because there is hardly ever anybody in there, it won't be
missed.


Reminds me of an unusual business I once visited. From the outside it
looked as if the building was at risk of collapse. Half of it was
boarded up. Inside it was like walking 40 years into the past, they
stocked paraffin cookers, distemper, whiting, paraffin, and the sort
of household appliances I doubt anyone has bought in a very long time.
Tin baths were one example. Anyway, the distemper was 70p for 2.5l,
and most of the colours were sold out. It was nearly half a century
old. Not the best policy on stock rotation then.

The sales person was dressed in tattered and torn clothes, smelt of
paraffin, and seemed more interested in a long chat than anything.


It seems a lot of businesses have real difficulty in seeing things
from the customer's perspective, screwfix is no different to the rest
in this respect. They mucked me about badly when I needed it least,
and I'm not pleased. Will I buy again? Theyre all the same, they all
employ incompetent tw--- that couldnt care less and just make stuff up
as they go along.

It was easy to see disaster ahead in Screwfix's move, but they seem to
have believed a very optimistic view, and are now paying for it,
probably by the multiple million. They have certainly done their
business real damage. Thing is, its all so easy to avoid.


NT

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...

Reminds me of an unusual business I once visited. From the outside it
looked as if the building was at risk of collapse. Half of it was
boarded up. Inside it was like walking 40 years into the past, they
stocked paraffin cookers, distemper, whiting, paraffin, and the sort
of household appliances I doubt anyone has bought in a very long time.
Tin baths were one example. Anyway, the distemper was 70p for 2.5l,
and most of the colours were sold out. It was nearly half a century
old. Not the best policy on stock rotation then.

The sales person was dressed in tattered and torn clothes, smelt of
paraffin, and seemed more interested in a long chat than anything.

Had these premises been closed for 40-50 years and then someone re-opened
the place to sell off the old stock? Sounds like the old chandlers. I came
across a similar thing on the outskirts of Yuma in the USA. A large
derserted hardware store that hadn't changed since the wild west, and even
sold wagon wheels, and a very old man at the very long end wearing a cowboy
hat and those twin bootlace things from his collar. I only knew he was
there because I saw a light in the distance; the place was near totally dark
and all sort of hardwear hid him. Most places have the counter near the
door, his was at the other end. I couldn't see how he made a living. Even
the coke fridge was vintage 1930s.

I remember those sort of places here. Everything was loose and they put it
in brown paper bags for you. Self serve was unheard of. You had to know what
you wanted, or asked the man, or told him of your problem, and then he
leaned into a deep bin pulled it out and put it in a brown paper bag. I
recall going to one once, the old man benhidn the counter had a long brown
covercoat. I asked for 4 ft of 15mm copper pipe. He started to use a
hacksaw with the 3 metre length dangerously swinging all over the place, I
had a wheel cutter in my pocket. I said here use this, and cut the pipe for
him. He was amazed, saying isn't that terrific. Wheel cutters had been
around for about 40 at the time.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:35:29 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


He started to use a
hacksaw with the 3 metre length dangerously swinging all over the place, I
had a wheel cutter in my pocket. I said here use this, and cut the pipe for
him. He was amazed, saying isn't that terrific. Wheel cutters had been
around for about 40 at the time.

.... and you actually had one of those? I'm amazed because clearly
they're a rip-off conspiracy by the tubing manufacturers.

Expensive too. At least a tenner.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
Andy Hall wrote in message
. ..

snip

It seems a lot of businesses have real difficulty in seeing things
from the customer's perspective, screwfix is no different to the rest
in this respect. They mucked me about badly when I needed it least,
and I'm not pleased. Will I buy again? Theyre all the same, they all
employ incompetent tw--- that couldnt care less and just make stuff up
as they go along.

I have no particular disagreement with what you say but you posed the
question "Will I buy again?" and failed to answer it - or was it implied
that you would as they are all the same? If so it hasn't done them a lot of
damage!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:35:29 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


He started to use a
hacksaw with the 3 metre length dangerously swinging all over the place,
I
had a wheel cutter in my pocket. I said here use this, and cut the pipe
for
him. He was amazed, saying isn't that terrific. Wheel cutters had been
around for about 40 years at the time.

... and you actually had one of those?

Yep. A Monument that is 35 years old. I occassionally replace the wheel,
which as still available from Plumb Center, also the same model is still
made (approx £15). If using pipe a lot get a Monument, they last and last
and work out cheaper in the long run, unlike buying power tools. If you are
doing just one DIY CH job get a cheapy from Screwfix.

snip drivel

the sort
of household appliances I doubt anyone has bought in a very long time.
Tin baths were one example.

They are still displayed outside the local small hardware shop! The trouble
is they seldom have anything I need.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:55:12 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:35:29 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


He started to use a
hacksaw with the 3 metre length dangerously swinging all over the place,
I
had a wheel cutter in my pocket. I said here use this, and cut the pipe
for
him. He was amazed, saying isn't that terrific. Wheel cutters had been
around for about 40 years at the time.

... and you actually had one of those?

Yep. A Monument that is 35 years old. I occassionally replace the wheel,
which as still available from Plumb Center, also the same model is still
made (approx £15).

Yes, I have one that I bought in 1977 and it's still fine.

If using pipe a lot get a Monument, they last and last
and work out cheaper in the long run, unlike buying power tools.

I find that buying good power tools works out cheaper in terms of
total cost of ownership over time

snip drivel



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:55:12 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:35:29 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


He started to use a
hacksaw with the 3 metre length dangerously swinging all over the
place,
I
had a wheel cutter in my pocket. I said here use this, and cut the
pipe
for
him. He was amazed, saying isn't that terrific. Wheel cutters had
been
around for about 40 years at the time.

... and you actually had one of those?

Yep. A Monument that is 35 years old. I occassionally replace the
wheel,
which as still available from Plumb Center, also the same model is still
made (approx £15).

Yes, I have one that I bought in 1977 and it's still fine.

If using pipe a lot get a Monument, they last and last
and work out cheaper in the long run, unlike buying power tools.

I find that buying good power tools works out cheaper in terms of
total cost of ownership over time

Only if you use them every day. Well you got that wrong.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:02:38 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



If using pipe a lot get a Monument, they last and last
and work out cheaper in the long run, unlike buying power tools.

I find that buying good power tools works out cheaper in terms of
total cost of ownership over time

Only if you use them every day. Well you got that wrong.

For my use, the economics work out perfectly.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...


big snip


I remember those sort of places here. Everything was loose and they put it
in brown paper bags for you. Self serve was unheard of. You had to know
what
you wanted, or asked the man, or told him of your problem, and then he
leaned into a deep bin pulled it out and put it in a brown paper bag.

Four candles ...?

--

Brian

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:11:28 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:



The point is, the use of on-line shopping is killing the retail trade,

Why does this matter?

Because not everyone has either computer or credit card, what do you suggest
they do if and when all but the 50p and charity shops have gone over to an
on-line store only ?..

snip the "Sod you, I'm alrigh attitued" remarks

It isn't an "I'm all right, sod you" attitude, it's economic reality.

The proportion of people with computers is rising astronomically, now
well over half of households in the UK and continuing to rise.
Computers are cheap.
For some people, such as the elderly, online shopping to have their
groceries delivered is a godsend.

There are plenty of methods of payment other than credit card
available, including debit cards and even COD from some online
suppliers. The UK has the second largest number of credit cards per
capita outside the U.S.

You can't spend gold sovereigns in Tescos either. People will
inevitably move with the times.



If the retail trade can't see that and react to it, then I'm sorry but
it deserves to die.


It's not a case of 'If the retail trade can't see', they can see but they
can't possibly compete - unless there is a change in the taxation system to
level the playing field.

That's a total nonsense. Why on earth should taxation be used to
distort an economic reality? It's bad enough that there are
distortions with income tax, CGT and IHT as it is.

If the retail bricks and mortar trade wants to compete, it will have
to do so in the real market, not an artificial one.


I can see that your wallet is far more important than the 'health' of
society.

Both are important. Retail shops attempting to compete with a far
cheaper method of connecting supplier with purchaser are not
indicative of the health of society.



Is Mrs Thatcher a relation of yours, she didn't care much for society
either?....


It has nothing to do with caring for society. That is brought about
by minimising government involvement in people's lives, not imposing
distorted economics to bolster the untenable.

I'm reminded of one of her most famous quotes though:

"If you try to buck the market, the market will buck you."



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:03:13 -0000, "Doctor D"
wrote:

Agree totally with Andy.
I would love to use the local hardware shop - but can't afford to.

As an example I needed a 60 watt ES lamp, 99p each in the hardware shop!
£1.67 for 10 in Screwfix, 45p per 2 in Asda.

It also depends who's pockets you want to line, the hardware shop
proprieter or Kingfisher/WalMart executives, their shareholders and
lastly their workers...

Ah, the wonders of mass discount retailing, making pounds of of people
trying to save pennies!

cheers,
Pete.

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 20:26:26 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:


I suspect that you are the fortunate exception.

If I want to find a hardware shop like that, I have to drive into the
adjacent market town where there is one in the centre.
If I can find a parking space, I'm lucky, otherwise I have to wait
until somebody leaves or drive all round the one way system to another
car park which may also be full and in eiother case pay 40p to park.

Hi,

May be worth popping in when driving into town anyway, might save a
separate trip to the sheds on the way home. I usually buy basic
consumables and bits well ahead of needing them, so when I do some DIY
I have them already to use.

I sometimes pop into London to shop, and there are quite a few good
hardware shops in Soho (!) what with all the shop fitting going on
round there. There is also a good decorating place in Shaftsbury
avenue.

The local little shop would do far better if it had some quality
and/or differentiated product lines. People would go there for
that. As it is, it is clear that the business is in a slow decline
and the owner seems unwilling to make changes.

That's a shame. If I can't find what I want I always ask, then
hopfully they will get the hint and maybe stock it

cheers,
Pete.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:11:28 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:



The point is, the use of on-line shopping is killing the retail trade,

Why does this matter?

Because not everyone has either computer or credit card, what do you
suggest
they do if and when all but the 50p and charity shops have gone over to
an
on-line store only ?..

snip the "Sod you, I'm alrigh attitued" remarks

It isn't an "I'm all right, sod you" attitude, it's economic reality.

Sorry but it is a "I'm all right, sod you" attitude, just the same as people
not voting for a government that would (say) put 1p in the pound on tax so
HMG can pay for more hospitals or schools etc. Think about it...


The proportion of people with computers is rising astronomically, now
well over half of households in the UK and continuing to rise.
Computers are cheap.

To you, to me but to Mr Bloggs on income support, or Mrs Smith on a single
pension, or Miss Jones working 'part time' (read, work when and for how long
we want you to) for the minimum wage ?

For some people, such as the elderly, online shopping to have their
groceries delivered is a godsend.

There are plenty of methods of payment other than credit card
available, including debit cards and even COD from some online
suppliers. The UK has the second largest number of credit cards per
capita outside the U.S.

AIUI it's almost impossible to survive in the USA without a CC, people are
certainly treaded with some suspicion if they can't transact through a CC.

So, I'll ask again. What should people do, when high street shops are either
just 50p or charity shops, if they don't own a computer, have a phone line
or CC ? And don't say use a internet cafe or the like, some people don't
know a tab key from a shift key, let alone what 'www' means.


You can't spend gold sovereigns in Tescos either. People will
inevitably move with the times.


I suspect if you really wanted to pay in Gold at Tesscos and made it
worthwhile for them they would make suitable arrangements, AIUI gold is
still a valid means of payment. :~) But that's not the point, try comparing
like with like, your argument would be correct if we were talking about the
Pound vs. the Euro say.



If the retail trade can't see that and react to it, then I'm sorry but
it deserves to die.


It's not a case of 'If the retail trade can't see', they can see but they
can't possibly compete - unless there is a change in the taxation system
to
level the playing field.

That's a total nonsense. Why on earth should taxation be used to
distort an economic reality? It's bad enough that there are
distortions with income tax, CGT and IHT as it is.

Oh right, lets scrap all those little tax breaks people get for being
married or having kids or any number of other tax avoidance schemes people
use to pay less tax. People like you like the tax system when it puts more
money into your bulging wallet but you don't like the same system when it
tries to benefit others or parts of society that you don't care for or
use...


If the retail bricks and mortar trade wants to compete, it will have
to do so in the real market, not an artificial one.

But it can't, an industrial building on a out of town industrial estate is a
lot cheaper to run and maintain than a town centre shop, then there are the
distribution costs, savings made by buying in bulk - all of which the
average high street shop can't compete with, hell even Dixons and food
supermarkets etc. are gradually moving away from town centre sites.



I can see that your wallet is far more important than the 'health' of
society.

Both are important. Retail shops attempting to compete with a far
cheaper method of connecting supplier with purchaser are not
indicative of the health of society.


Total clap trap, just were and how are people going to shop when town
centres are waste lands of boarded up shops ? If out of town shopping parks
have been accepted as a bad thing for the non car owning shopper, how do you
think a (creeping) move over to on-line shopping will effect the 'health' of
society ?...



Is Mrs Thatcher a relation of yours, she didn't care much for society
either?....


It has nothing to do with caring for society. That is brought about
by minimising government involvement in people's lives, not imposing
distorted economics to bolster the untenable.

It's nothing of the sort unless you care more about your wallet than you do
for the society you live in, you have both a computer and a credit card but
you still haven't answered the question about what should people do if they
don't have one or both of the above if / when high street shopping (and
possibly even the out of town parks) becomes a thing of the past.


I'm reminded of one of her most famous quotes though:

"If you try to buck the market, the market will buck you."


Who dictates the market thought ? Use high street shops and not the on-line
stores and the next thing you will find is those same on-line stores have
high street outlets or they close will themselves go belly up. It's not the
business that dictates a trend but the customer, if shop 'A' doesn't stock
white paint and shop 'B' does who do you think people wanting white paint
will trade with. As I said, the move over to on-line shopping is far more to
do with laziness and penny pinching than any other factor - as has been
stated in this thread, people will buy from SF rather than pop out to B&Q...

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...


big snip


I remember those sort of places here. Everything was loose and they put
it
in brown paper bags for you. Self serve was unheard of. You had to know
what
you wanted, or asked the man, or told him of your problem, and then he
leaned into a deep bin pulled it out and put it in a brown paper bag.

Four candles ...?

Four handles...

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:44:21 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:11:28 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:



The point is, the use of on-line shopping is killing the retail trade,

Why does this matter?

Because not everyone has either computer or credit card, what do you
suggest
they do if and when all but the 50p and charity shops have gone over to
an
on-line store only ?..

snip the "Sod you, I'm alrigh attitued" remarks

It isn't an "I'm all right, sod you" attitude, it's economic reality.

Sorry but it is a "I'm all right, sod you" attitude, just the same as people
not voting for a government that would (say) put 1p in the pound on tax so
HMG can pay for more hospitals or schools etc. Think about it...

If that's your definition of that criterion, then fine, but I have to
say that it isn't mine so I don't accept your conclusion.. I
certainly wouldn't vote for anybody proposing to increase taxation in
any form because fundamentally I don't think that governments should
be in the businesses of health care or education, or anything beyond a
bare minimum of activities.


The proportion of people with computers is rising astronomically, now
well over half of households in the UK and continuing to rise.
Computers are cheap.

To you, to me but to Mr Bloggs on income support, or Mrs Smith on a single
pension, or Miss Jones working 'part time' (read, work when and for how long
we want you to) for the minimum wage ?

Even in that context they are cheap. It's a matter of priorities.
Nobody said that it even had to be a new computer. For web surfing,
any old thing will do and can be bought for a few pounds at a computer
sale.

There are even volunteer organisations who organise computers for the
elderly etc.


For some people, such as the elderly, online shopping to have their
groceries delivered is a godsend.

There are plenty of methods of payment other than credit card
available, including debit cards and even COD from some online
suppliers. The UK has the second largest number of credit cards per
capita outside the U.S.

AIUI it's almost impossible to survive in the USA without a CC, people are
certainly treaded with some suspicion if they can't transact through a CC.

Not really. I am a regular visitor to the U.S. and the only
situations where transactions without a credit card are difficult are
if you want to do something like checking into a hotel or renting a
car. Obviously they want a means to track you down if you don't
pay. However that is true anywhere, including the UK.

If you want to go into a store in the U.S. and buy an item, then
greenbacks are just fine.


So, I'll ask again. What should people do, when high street shops are either
just 50p or charity shops, if they don't own a computer, have a phone line
or CC ? And don't say use a internet cafe or the like, some people don't
know a tab key from a shift key, let alone what 'www' means.

Ultimately they will have to learn or be helped to learn. You can't
hold back progress just because it doesn't suit a minority of people.

If there are a significant number of people who are unwilling or
unable to adapt to or use new technology then they will be a market of
their own and the smart business person will look at the opportunity
and address it while it lasts. In a sense, that is the remaining role
of the small shopkeeper. The point is that they had better watch
their market because it is changing and disappearing.




You can't spend gold sovereigns in Tescos either. People will
inevitably move with the times.


I suspect if you really wanted to pay in Gold at Tesscos and made it
worthwhile for them they would make suitable arrangements, AIUI gold is
still a valid means of payment. :~) But that's not the point, try comparing
like with like, your argument would be correct if we were talking about the
Pound vs. the Euro say.

Whatever. I was simply trying to pick something that could have been
used in the past and now practically can't so the Euro was not a good
example.





If the retail trade can't see that and react to it, then I'm sorry but
it deserves to die.


It's not a case of 'If the retail trade can't see', they can see but they
can't possibly compete - unless there is a change in the taxation system
to
level the playing field.

That's a total nonsense. Why on earth should taxation be used to
distort an economic reality? It's bad enough that there are
distortions with income tax, CGT and IHT as it is.

Oh right, lets scrap all those little tax breaks people get for being
married or having kids or any number of other tax avoidance schemes people
use to pay less tax.

There are so precious few of those left that it isn't worth
discussing.

People like you like the tax system when it puts more
money into your bulging wallet but you don't like the same system when it
tries to benefit others or parts of society that you don't care for or
use...

The trouble is that it doesn't put anything very much of use in my
wallet or anywhere else that is of value to me or most other people.
If it did, I would mind less.




If the retail bricks and mortar trade wants to compete, it will have
to do so in the real market, not an artificial one.

But it can't, an industrial building on a out of town industrial estate is a
lot cheaper to run and maintain than a town centre shop,

Exactly. So the town centre shops should focus on doing things that
attract people to want to go into a town centre. Most town centres
are a complete pain in the bum. It is difficult and expensive to
park and a large amount of time can be wasted finding parking.
The alternative of using public transport is pretty awful and
inconvenient with time and place and one can't practically carry
large amounts of shopping anyway.

The shopkeepers should think about and focus on what will make people
*want* to go to the town centres and go to their shops. They are on a
loser to begin with because few are attractive places. It's not
surprising that many town centre shops are based around relieving the
single under 30s of their disposable income, which is why there are so
many fashion and music shops.



then there are the
distribution costs, savings made by buying in bulk - all of which the
average high street shop can't compete with, hell even Dixons and food
supermarkets etc. are gradually moving away from town centre sites.

Of course. That's inevitable. People want to buy some things on
price and not quality, artistic or intellectual content. It's the
latter three that will be the remaining territory for the small
shopkeeper. The other would be convenience, but that is tenuous at
best.





I can see that your wallet is far more important than the 'health' of
society.

Both are important. Retail shops attempting to compete with a far
cheaper method of connecting supplier with purchaser are not
indicative of the health of society.


Total clap trap, just were and how are people going to shop when town
centres are waste lands of boarded up shops ?

If and when that happens it will be because a) customers have voted
with their feet and b) that shopkeepers have not made the effort or
succeeded in encouraging them to visit their shops. It's as simple as
that. Shops will remain as long as there is a demand.
If people want to shop at low prices as their main criterion then they
go to out of town retail parks, on line or by mail order. You don't
need a computer to shop by mail order.

If out of town shopping parks
have been accepted as a bad thing for the non car owning shopper, how do you
think a (creeping) move over to on-line shopping will effect the 'health' of
society ?...

I don't think they are. For the car owner, it's much easier to go
to one of these places and park for free. For the non car owner,
many of them are reachable on bus routes anyway, so there is no real
issue. Again it's driven by the market. Enough customers without
cars want to go to shopping centre - business opportunity for bus
operator.






Is Mrs Thatcher a relation of yours, she didn't care much for society
either?....


It has nothing to do with caring for society. That is brought about
by minimising government involvement in people's lives, not imposing
distorted economics to bolster the untenable.

It's nothing of the sort unless you care more about your wallet than you do
for the society you live in,

If you ask anybody to tell you honestly which they care most about, it
is their wallet. It is the main basis on which they vote. After
that they may care about public services if they've drunk the
government Kool Aid and after that law and order.
The most effective way of delivering so called public services is for
them not to be public services other than a financial investment by
the government from tax revenue into the service of the individual's
choice.


you have both a computer and a credit card but
you still haven't answered the question about what should people do if they
don't have one or both of the above if / when high street shopping (and
possibly even the out of town parks) becomes a thing of the past.

I did above. It's pretty simple. Some people will adapt to the
progress of technology - there are many silver surfers for example.
Others won't. For these people, there will be a market opportunity
for businesses that operate outside of technological advance if the
numbers are significant.




I'm reminded of one of her most famous quotes though:

"If you try to buck the market, the market will buck you."


Who dictates the market thought ?

Ultimately it's always the customer.

Use high street shops and not the on-line
stores and the next thing you will find is those same on-line stores have
high street outlets or they close will themselves go belly up. It's not the
business that dictates a trend but the customer,

This is true, but it is possible for businesses to influence what the
customer buys quite heavily if they have the financial muscle to do
so.

Ask yourself why people go to online stores. Again it's pretty
simple:

- Price (quite often)
- Choice
- Time
- Convenience

The high street stores are simply not competing with that and in some
cases can't. They need to provide better/different reasons for
customers to visit.





if shop 'A' doesn't stock
white paint and shop 'B' does who do you think people wanting white paint
will trade with. As I said, the move over to on-line shopping is far more to
do with laziness and penny pinching than any other factor - as has been
stated in this thread, people will buy from SF rather than pop out to B&Q...

For a commodity item like paint why not? Let's say I want to buy a
particular brand and colour of paint. I phone B&Q or any of the
others to ask if they have it. When they eventually decide to answer
the phone it's usually a call centre who then have to telephone the
store and hopefully find a sentient being to go and take a look on the
shelf and if I'm lucky have the right thing in the right quantity and
be willing to put it under the counter. More often than not, they
haven't got all that I want and I end up needing to contact 2 or 3
places to get the entire list. So that's probably the best part of an
hour on the phone, and by the time I've visited them all to get the
items and discovered that they've got the item wrong anyway, half the
day's gone. A complete waste of time and effort.

Alternatively, from home or anywhere on a business trip in Europe or
anywhere else, (except at the moment when flying but that's about to
change) I can connect to the Internet by high speed network, wireless
LAN, telephone or even GPRS and access Farrow and Ball's web site,
order exactly what I want and it will be there waiting when I get home
at the weekend.

That isn't laziness, it's maximising use of time. To me time is the
most expensive commodity, so that's what I seek to optimise.

I can appreciate that some people have plenty of time on their hands.
That's fine. They have the freedom to choose where they wish to shop.
If there are enough of them then the bricks and mortar stores will
remain, otherwise they die. It's that easy.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:44:21 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:
snip

Sorry but it is a "I'm all right, sod you" attitude, just the same as
people
not voting for a government that would (say) put 1p in the pound on tax
so
HMG can pay for more hospitals or schools etc. Think about it...

If that's your definition of that criterion, then fine, but I have to
say that it isn't mine so I don't accept your conclusion.. I
certainly wouldn't vote for anybody proposing to increase taxation in
any form because fundamentally I don't think that governments should
be in the businesses of health care or education, or anything beyond a
bare minimum of activities.

So you ARE very much of a "I'm all right, sod you" attitude then, how do you
expect people who can't afford to feed and house themselves to afford health
care (let alone education for any kids) if it's not supplied by HMG - re
open the work houses perhaps ?!...

Sorry but you are either clueless or living on Mars. :~(

Next time you visit the USA, go 'Down Town' and open your eyes, but be
careful not to get yourself mugged for the shirt off your back.

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
I placed my first order with them yesterday. When I checked progress
their
website said it had been delivered. Further checking showed that the
order
reference related to an order delivered to a customer 150 miles away in
February! When I queried this I got nowhere. Any other suggestions?


How about getting off your butt and using a local supplier,

I hope you don't mean B&Q :-)