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"Andrew" wrote in message
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On 26/04/2021 12:23, Fredxx wrote:

Given the UK was inhabited by forests before man, the landscape has
changed dramatically. I could see sheep on some highlands but I can't see
the retention of cattle without some serious subsidy.


Sheep need to be shorn every year

(which costs more than the wool is worth).

Not here it doesnt.


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"T i m" wrote in message
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:21:30 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

snip

Mars bars are covered in milk chocolate and would be banned by Vegans.


Why would they.


Because it contains milk, stupid.

We have just enjoyed a couple of chocolate covered
sponge finger things and both of us have several bars
of white and dark chocolate in the fridge.


So you are a VINO, vegan in name only.



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On 26/04/2021 13:48, Andrew wrote:
On 26/04/2021 08:21, alan_m wrote:
On 26/04/2021 02:01, Fredxx wrote:

It's a simple question. How many cows, sheep, pigs, geese would exist
in say the UK if everyone was a fanatic vegan?


And what would be left to order from your local take-away?


Deep-fried tinned banana flowers :-)

Plus a mars bar as a side order in Glasgow.


https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk...-storm-3184348

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"Andrew" wrote in message
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On 26/04/2021 08:21, alan_m wrote:
On 26/04/2021 02:01, Fredxx wrote:

It's a simple question. How many cows, sheep, pigs, geese would exist in
say the UK if everyone was a fanatic vegan?


And what would be left to order from your local take-away?


Deep-fried tinned banana flowers :-)

Plus a mars bar as a side order in Glasgow.


The latest is deep-fried Colin/Cuthbert the Caterpillar cake
https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/25/chipp...cake-14468105/


It's when you start to think of even chocolate containing milk and therefore
being off-limits to vegans that I think some people have got their
morality:enjoyment-of-life balance a bit skewed ;-) I have great admiration
for people who respect animals to that extent, but I like meat and animal
products too much (and hate the alternatives too much) to entertain it
myself.

As a matter of interest, is there any reason why chocolate can't be made
with non-animal milk (eg soya/oat milk)?

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On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 21:21:26 +0100, "NY" wrote:

snip

It's when you start to think of even chocolate containing milk and therefore
being off-limits to vegans


What? Where have you been FFS, living in a cave for the last 10 years!

Do you not have a TV and see any adverts, do you not go shopping and
look around as you move, or do you just buy a freezer full of animal
carcases and munch your way though those? ;-(

that I think some people have got their
morality:enjoyment-of-life balance a bit skewed ;-)


Yes, if you think it's 'ok' to enjoy your life at the cost of an
animals (when you don't 'need' to) and risk your own health in the
process then I guess you would do?

I have great admiration
for people who respect animals to that extent, but I like meat and animal
products too much (and hate the alternatives too much) to entertain it
myself.


Again, it all seems to be about you and you don't appear to have much
of an actual clue about the alternatives?

As a matter of interest, is there any reason why chocolate can't be made
with non-animal milk (eg soya/oat milk)?


sigh No, I guess because you have said you CGAF about the suffering
of animals ... as long as you get your pleasure, why *would* you
bother to Google 'vegan chocolate' and see all the options out there?

I have about 10 bars of (dark, my preference, daughter has just done
our shopping) vegan chocolate in the fridge and the Mrs has similar
number in white chocolate (her preference). We have plain and almond
vegan Magnum ice creams in the freezer, a cupboard filled with vegan
crisps and cereal bars and vegan pizza, burgers and sausages in the
freezer (along with all the frozen veg of course).

https://www.benjerry.co.uk/flavours/non-dairy

For brunch I made cooked vegan sausages, mushroom, re-heated some
leftover chips and some baked beans. Tonight we have just had peanut
butter and cucumber sandwiches with a vegan fruit yogurt for pudding.

I now fancy a last cuppa (before bed), using oat milk and with one of
my home made vegan rock cakes ...

Cheers, T i m
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On 26/04/2021 15:30, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:21:30 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

snip

Mars bars are covered in milk chocolate and would be banned by Vegans.


Why would they. We have just enjoyed a couple of chocolate covered
sponge finger things and both of us have several bars of white and
dark chocolate in the fridge.


Are you saying you ate bovine secretions laced with puss?

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On 26/04/2021 14:03, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:23:32 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 09:25, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 02:01:13 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

It's a simple question.

It's not. It's stupid trolling from stupid people.


How many fighting bulls are there in the UK.


How many native rhinos or elephants are in the UK. You really are
thick aren't you?

One excuse to continue
bull-fighting in Spain is that the breed would become extinct if
bull-fighting stopped.


So that's an excuse because you don't like it, but all the cruelty and
death you impose on animals is ok?


It's an excuse when animals are subjected to unnecessary pain and
suffering. Something you admitting to not caring about while the animal
is alive.

Only a blinkered fanatic would think it a stupid question from a troll.


Nope, just someone very used to ****ing on trolls in their ever
deepening holes. ;-)


An admission you act like a troll, and by definition a troll.

How many cows, sheep, pigs, geese would exist in
say the UK if everyone was a fanatic vegan?

How many do you think? How many were here before man started 'farming'
them?


Given the UK was inhabited by forests before man, the landscape has
changed dramatically.


'Given' what?

I could see sheep on some highlands but I can't
see the retention of cattle without some serious subsidy.


Ok, and ... Oh, you think it was an actual question! Oh bless. ;-)


You're not coming across as being very bright.

And is no such thing as a 'fanatic vegan' but some can be more
passionate re their desire to stop the suffering and exploitation of
animals than others.


In the same way you call Brexiters fanatics you accept one can be
passionate to become a fanatic.


Now, you are either very thick (I'd go with that one) or have a really
bad memory (probably B12 deficiency, get a blood test like I did).

I have never said Brexiteer fanatics.


Another lie. Your memory is failing you.

I have often said 'Fanatical
Brexiteers;' so to differentiate between the ordinary people who voted
to Leave.


In much the same way you are called a fanatical vegan to differentiate
between the ordinary vegans who are decent people.

The former were the ones who stated they *knew* we would be
better off outside the EU but had no way of stating how or why (that
had any supporting information).


That claim makes you a fanatical remainer.

You are a fanatic.


Nope, I'm passionate about not causing animals suffering and death.
You seem to be fanatical about *causing* animal suffering and death.


No, you're a fanatic.

The difference between a fanatic vegan like yourself, and most vegans,
is they care about suffering while an animal is a live.


And what proof have you got that I don't? That I don't rate you only
raping your wife monthly rather than weekly as being are *real*
improvement in her welfare?


The proof is a post saying you don't care about animal welfare while a
an animal is alive. Is you're memory so poor?

You have admitted you don't care, and that you're simply determined to
stop us eating meat out of envy because we're allowed to and you're not.


I have warned you about constantly posting such obvious BS.


It's not BS.

You are either happy to cause suffering and death to animals or you
aren't.


Quite the opposite. I was to improve animal welfare while an animal is
alive, and you don't.


Proof? OSTFU


I am content to sign petitions surrounding the import of foie gras. You
won't because you don't care about animal welfare while an animal is alive.

There are straight (dietary) vegans and ethical vegans.


There is also a third class of fanatical vegans, driven by envy.


Bwhahaha. See how you resort to bull**** when you run out of any
coherent arguments (which you did at the beginning of course).


It's not BS.

Most vegans weren't born such, I wasn't. I became one when I (and no
one else) realised it better aligned my actions with my morals.


That's because your parents wanted you to have a natural balanced diet.
Even you feed your dog meat products knowing it assist in a wholesome diet.

Now, if the best you have to counter that is to make **** up (in
public remember) then that continues to reinforce the fact that you
are *just* a pathetic troll.


One that provides facts you don't like to hear.


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On 26/04/2021 15:39, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:47:32 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 02:01, Fredxx wrote:

It's a simple question. How many cows, sheep, pigs, geese would exist in
say the UK if everyone was a fanatic vegan?


Very few. A whole group of species and sub-species, like Herdwick
sheep and Gloucester cows would die out unless enough wealthy
bankers use their bonuses to become hobby farmers and pay to
keep them alive.


Correct answer.

D i m cannot bring himself to provide his solution to the
inevitable law of unintended consequences


Why would I want or need to?

Did they evolve naturally? If they did then left in their natural
environment they would survive or not like any other creature?


Yes, in much the same way there are so many species of dog.

But don't worry, the penny might drop with you at some point.


Yes, you hate animals and want them to become extinct.
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On 26/04/2021 19:56, Rod Speed wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 26/04/2021 10:27, Rod Speed wrote:


"williamwright" wrote in message
...
On 25/04/2021 13:48, T i m wrote:

You *really* are a stupid troll aren't you?

It didn't take long before you resorted to personal abuse.

Snap.

Doing that is always a sign that you know you've lost the argument.

Bull**** it is.


Then you and T i m have more in common than I thought.


Generally when you have no further case to put forward and resort to
abuse it is a sure sign to everyone around you the argument is lost.


More mindless bull****. I abuse ****wits like you right from the start,
****wit.


Not another lost argument.

And I abused that other ****wit when he started abusing me.


Why would he do that?

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On 26/04/2021 14:08, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:26:11 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 10:27, Rod Speed wrote:


"williamwright" wrote in message
...
On 25/04/2021 13:48, T i m wrote:

You *really* are a stupid troll aren't you?

It didn't take long before you resorted to personal abuse.

Snap.

Doing that is always a sign that you know you've lost the argument.

Bull**** it is.


Then you and T i m have more in common than I thought.


Yes, neither of us make up stuff about people because we don't need to
to get our point across.


Irrelevant, my comment was about abusing people when you've lost an
argument.

Generally when you have no further case to put forward and resort to
abuse it is a sure sign to everyone around you your argument is lost.


What do you call it when someone *constantly* tells lies about people
they have no way of knowing and certainly no way of proving, I'd call
that abuse (in the least).


The following is abuse, calling people, a childish troll, left brainer,
Neanderthal and raping my wife, hearing voices.

Personally, I'd call them the lowest of the low, just a disgusting and
desperate troll, resorting to anything they can because they know they
are wrong.


I call someone who admits to not caring about animal welfare whilst an
animal is alive but show envy when our loved ones allow us to eat meat
and meat products, to be the lowest of the low.

Anything else is denial.


Exactly, so stop trying, it's pathetic.


Great. You finally accept when you have no further case to put forward
and resort to abuse it is a sure sign to everyone around you your
argument is lost.

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On 26/04/2021 13:32, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:46:21 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 09:45, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 01:45:22 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

Add high levels of protein, zinc, iron, vitamin B12 and omega-3 fatty
acids and you have the holy grail of nutrition right there.

(things you can get without causing pain and suffering to an animal).

Of course, through improvements in animal welfare.

Ah, back to only raping your wife once a month rather than once a
week, or giving you slave fresh water rather than making them drink
out of a pond. Well done you, I'm sure they would both consider you
are real caring guy for doing that.


You really have lost it. Get help and visit your doctor, ask for
counselling.


For what, I'm not the one labouring under some BS idea of what
improving welfare actually means.


Given you admit you don't care about animal welfare while an animal is
alive, once again you're talking through your arse.

But you won't support
or endorse these campaigns.

Over and above stopping the entire unnecessary commodification of
animals, no. But who says (apart from you of course as you make most
stuff up) that I don't?

This is the crux of your issue.

https://ibb.co/9Z1c6tZ


Quite, you have no empathy towards meat eaters,


Because they aren't the victims.

just pure envy so that
we might becomes vegans.


No, I hope you eat as much red meat as you can (please).


I do occasionally. You can have too much of a good thing.

Except you're the worst advert of veganism.


And you are a better one, treating your slaves to lighter chains to
'improve their welfare?


I don't have slaves, whereas you incarcerate your dogs. At least you
have the decency to feed them meat as more of a balanced diet.

We know you are confused / torn. You want to stop everyone eating Foie
gras but are happy for them to eat chickens that have been fed such
high protein foods that their legs break unable to carry their own
weight. The penny will drop with you eventually.


We?


Sorry 'you', I'm not the one trying to farce everone to stop eating
Foie gras.


Yes, we know you endorse the force-feeding of geese.

You are a narcissist if you believe you know how I think.


Nope. I only need to be an ordinary person to read you like a (sick /
sad) book.


I'm not the fanatic suffering cognitive dissonance incarcerating a dog,
feeding it with meat and eating white chocolate.

I am not
confused or torn.


Of course you are or you wouldn't be trying to stop people eating
Foie gras whilst happily eating chicken.


To my knowledge whole chickens are not forced fed.

Any fanatical vegan giving meat to their dog will be
confused/torn.


It is an issue for sure.

Ethical veganism is where keeping pets and feeding them meat is a
contradistinction their to beliefs.


Agreed.

But then you're a fanatical vegan
driven by envy we're allowed to eat meat and you're not,


Complete and utter lies and BS, a complete and utter fabrication
because you are desperate. Every time you repeat your made up story
displays your increasing desperation.


The truth hurts.

yet happy to
keep a pet


We don't have a pet.


You'll be saying it's a member of your family. That would be sad.

and feed it meat.


Not 'happy' to do that (obviously) but until the owner can be sure of
it getting a balanced diet, it will continue to be fed some.


In much the same way I ensure my family enjoys a balanced diet.

Piglets have their tails (and teeth) cut off with no anaesthetic, what
do you think of that. What are you doing about that. What can you do
about that (easily)?


How many pain killers were given When your dogs came around from their
anaesthetic after their genitals were mutilated?


A weeks worth typically but see how you avoid the point that's
happening thousands of times a day, every day.


Then campaign to have the practice stopped?

So:

"Piglets have their tails (and teeth) cut off with no anaesthetic,
what do you think of that. What are you doing about that. What can you
do about that (easily)?"


Then campaign to have the practice stopped?

Lambs / goats have their horn stubs burned off. What are you doing
about that? How many petitions have you signed. What was the outcome?


Then campaign to have the practice stopped?

If you want pigs to have a local anaesthetic prior to their tails being
docked then campaign for this.


Why do they need to be cut off in the first place is *actually* the
point?


The point is simple and has been pointed out to you before. Pigs will
bite each others' tails, which is more likely to lead to infection than
with a knife.

If you don't care then don't.


No, I know a better way to avoid all that ...


By being a fanatical vegan, an example of the type of person no one want
to become?

Etc etc.


Quite:

snip


The bits you weren't able to provide a counter argument.


No, the bits that are such crazy / circular BS that they don't deserve
any consideration whatsoever.


The bits you weren't able to provide a counter argument.

I don't need to provide any counter argument because I'm not the one
advocating causing animals to suffer and die.


I'm not advocating that animals should suffer.

Ok, I don't want to have animals killed or made to suffer in my name
so do what I can to avoid that.


I don't want animals to suffer, yet you don't care about animal welfare
while an animal is alive.

You (obviously) don't care if animals suffer and die in your name but
seem to be very sensitive to that statement of fact, and therefore,
desperately try to justify it with all sorts of distraction techniques
(talking about mutilating animals, even though they then go on to live
long and happy lives, not killed when very young like all the animals
you (don't) care about?


I do care if animals suffer, and I'll keep repeating this until you
accept that I campaign for improvements in animal welfare.

Once you have dug yourself into that rabbit hole, you then lash out
with all sort of accusations that you have no was of justifying (like
my B12 levels, even though I've stated we were both recently tested
and the levels were 'normal') and you can't do the same. Instead you
use the *assumption* that because you eat meat, you *will* be getting
sufficient B12 when it's known that 40% of the population (inc meat
eaters) are B12 deficient?


Evidence shows that vegans are more likely to be deficient that meat eaters.

So 99% of what you come out with is unquestionably lies and BS and you
do that because you have NOTHING better.

Just admit (again) that you are above all animals,


Of course man is above animals only a fanatical vegan would say his
cognitive powers were on a par with say a farm animal.

therefore it's ok
to kill and exploit them and we can be done with it (and why I don't
understand why you are so desperate to argue with me when you know you
have the lower physical (and moral of course, not that you have any
morals) ground. eg, You kill animals, I don't.


We're all exploited in one way or another. The ideal to to make animal's
lives comfortable while they are alive. Something you seem dead against.
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"Fredxx" wrote in message
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On 26/04/2021 15:39, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:47:32 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 02:01, Fredxx wrote:

It's a simple question. How many cows, sheep, pigs, geese would exist
in
say the UK if everyone was a fanatic vegan?

Very few. A whole group of species and sub-species, like Herdwick
sheep and Gloucester cows would die out unless enough wealthy
bankers use their bonuses to become hobby farmers and pay to
keep them alive.


Correct answer.

D i m cannot bring himself to provide his solution to the
inevitable law of unintended consequences


Why would I want or need to?

Did they evolve naturally? If they did then left in their natural
environment they would survive or not like any other creature?


Yes, in much the same way there are so many species of dog.

But don't worry, the penny might drop with you at some point.


Yes, you hate animals and want them to become extinct.


Thats because he is a vegetable as well as a VINO.



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"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 26/04/2021 19:56, Rod Speed wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 26/04/2021 10:27, Rod Speed wrote:


"williamwright" wrote in message
...
On 25/04/2021 13:48, T i m wrote:

You *really* are a stupid troll aren't you?

It didn't take long before you resorted to personal abuse.

Snap.

Doing that is always a sign that you know you've lost the argument.

Bull**** it is.

Then you and T i m have more in common than I thought.


Generally when you have no further case to put forward and resort to
abuse it is a sure sign to everyone around you the argument is lost.


More mindless bull****. I abuse ****wits like you right from the start,
****wit.


Not another lost argument.


Nope, just more of your mindless bull****.

And I abused that other ****wit when he started abusing me.


Why would he do that?


Ask him, ****wit.


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On 26/04/2021 21:07, Rod Speed wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:21:30 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

snip

Mars bars are covered in milk chocolate and would be banned by Vegans.


Why would they.


Because it contains milk, stupid.

We have just enjoyed a couple of chocolate covered
sponge finger things and both of us have several bars
of white and dark chocolate in the fridge.


So you are a VINO, vegan in name only.


He is trying to make the point that some chocolate doesn't contain milk
products and Vegan ice cream is made from peas.


--
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On 26 Apr 2021 at 21:21:26 BST, ""NY"" wrote:




It's when you start to think of even chocolate containing milk and therefore
being off-limits to vegans that I think some people have got their
morality:enjoyment-of-life balance a bit skewed ;-) I have great admiration
for people who respect animals to that extent, but I like meat and animal
products too much (and hate the alternatives too much) to entertain it
myself.


I'd think vegans are less life-skewed than most. For a start, they haven't got
that 'I love animals but still like eating them' dissonance rattling around
their brains.

As for liking non-human based food, I was surprised to see how easy it was for
me to cut those products out. Couple of days usually. I'd still pine for some
things - usually real crap, like sausages. We're just socialised to like
certain foods and it so happened my partner was vegan - so maybe it was easier
for me. (FWIW, I do occasionally have things like cheese and meat -
laziness).


As a matter of interest, is there any reason why chocolate can't be made
with non-animal milk (eg soya/oat milk)?


Surprised you needed to ask - thought it was common knowledge. Aldi do some
decent chocolate that is also vegan.

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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 06:32:52 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 21:07, Rod Speed wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:21:30 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

snip

Mars bars are covered in milk chocolate and would be banned by Vegans.

Why would they.


Because it contains milk, stupid.

We have just enjoyed a couple of chocolate covered
sponge finger things and both of us have several bars
of white and dark chocolate in the fridge.


So you are a VINO, vegan in name only.


He is trying to make the point that some chocolate doesn't contain milk
products and Vegan ice cream is made from peas.


It does make you wonder what rock these people live under eh. ;-)

Cheers, T i m
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Default More Heavy Trolling by the Senile Octogenarian Nym-Shifting Ozzie Cretin!

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:41:52 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



ThatĘs because he is a vegetable as well as a VINO.


But certainly no trolling senile asshole, unlike you, senile troll!

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
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Default More Heavy Trolling by the Senile Octogenarian Nym-Shifting Ozzie Cretin!

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:42:53 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



Not another lost argument.


Nope, just more of your mindless bull****.

And I abused that other ****wit when he started abusing me.


Why would he do that?


Ask him, ****wit.


Yeah, keep educating him about what he gets for feeding a trolling sick
asshole like you, senile Rodent! LOL

--
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cretin's pathological trolling:
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:16:33 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

On 26 Apr 2021 at 21:21:26 BST, ""NY"" wrote:


It's when you start to think of even chocolate containing milk and therefore
being off-limits to vegans that I think some people have got their
morality:enjoyment-of-life balance a bit skewed ;-) I have great admiration
for people who respect animals to that extent, but I like meat and animal
products too much (and hate the alternatives too much) to entertain it
myself.


I'd think vegans are less life-skewed than most.


Of course. 'Most people' don't like killing most living things (some
draw the line at spiders and wasps, I don't) and most could never kill
a pig, cow, sheep or goat and would likely feint or a least throw up /
suffer nightmares if they visited an abattoir.

It's this disconnection of the moral / physical responsibility between
their morals and their actions they pay others to do on their behalf
that allows them to eat meat.

This gives a reasonably honest insight as to the life inside those
windowless sheds, as seen by a real human being (not a psychopath).
;-)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683

For a start, they haven't got
that 'I love animals but still like eating them' dissonance rattling around
their brains.


Yup, logical inconsistency (eat a lamb but not a dog) fuelled by
cognitive dissonance (I know what happens to animals and don't like it
but I'm now conditioned to eat meat and am addicted to it (fats
actually). ;-(

As for liking non-human based food, I was surprised to see how easy it was for
me to cut those products out.


Same here. I was already off dairy on doctors orders (5 years) and we
have never been big meat eaters and even that has been reducing slowly
over the last few years. We went 'cold Turkey' on everything else in
Veganuary last year and it really hasn't been an issue.

Couple of days usually. I'd still pine for some
things - usually real crap, like sausages.


I'm guessing you have / tried all the vegan alternatives Rob (I
appreciate they are processed but still better than meat)? [1] We like
all we have tried (some more than others) but if you are looking for
something familiar (shape / texture / taste) to fill some
psychological role (and we often do, like on a fried breakfast) then
we have found they are fine. Further, I *really* don't miss the random
bits of bone, gristle or other 'surprises' you can often find in
processed meat. ;-)

We're just socialised to like
certain foods


And often from a very early age. And strangely, even though veganaism
(in practice if not in name) has been practiced by many for thousands
of years, it's never been easier than it is today and looking to get
even easier.

and it so happened my partner was vegan -


In our case it was our daughter learning that things like 'Red
Tractor' or 'RSPCA approved' meant little to the animals that still
suffered and died, felt she had to go further (and vegetarianism was
little better because dairy is probably worse than meat or eggs).

so maybe it was easier
for me.


Judging by the ignorance of some re what's available in a form that
everone can eat (vegans and carnists alike) by some here, having
someone to guide you initially can be handy, unless you are interested
enough to look into it yourself (and there is no excuse for not doing
that these days with Google etc). ;-)

(FWIW, I do occasionally have things like cheese and meat -
laziness).


We have used up most of what (animal based food) we had left in the
freezer / cupboard and so the only chance we would have of eating meat
/ dairy / eggs is if we were out, but given all the fast food places
do a vegan range (Gregg's are about to add two more vegan item off the
back of the massive interest in their vegan sausage rolls, 'steak
bake' and donuts, even opening another 200 stores I believe ...) and
would probably go hungry rather than eating anything animal based
these days (with the thoughts of what each animal had to suffer / lose
to bring the food to us).

We were out later than expected the other day and I popped into a
Tesco Express before getting in a dog walk and bought a couple of
vegan wraps, some vegan crisps (many are anyway etc) and drinks etc.
The wraps, not tried by us before were lovely so that's another
'option' we have found. ;-)

As a matter of interest, is there any reason why chocolate can't be made
with non-animal milk (eg soya/oat milk)?


Surprised you needed to ask - thought it was common knowledge.


And this is the thing. When discussing the whole veganism concept with
people I assume I knew as much about it when I first started but
that's obviously not the case. I wonder if it's a function of age, the
older you are the least likely you might be to being open minded,
change lifestyle to something you see to be 'better'?

Like if there are 'milks' that don't involve all the mess of taking it
from cows, why wouldn't you use them instead?

Aldi do some
decent chocolate that is also vegan.


Yup, daughter is local to an Aldi so I believe she get's quite a bit
there first, then Salisbury's (my ****y 4 for £1 lager is only
available there (and is vegan) and possibly Tesco / Iceland for all
the frozen stuff (veg / ice creams / burgers / sausages / mince).

She found some 'ready to eat' Chicken Tikka the other day that would
go lovely in a salad (we had it heated in a 'kebab') and some 'Chicken
Teriyaki strips' that were perfect in a stir fry (with some vegan
spring rolls).

I guess if you have eaten the same thing, 'meat and two veg' every
day, 'fish on Fridays ...' for most of your life then even the change
from that would be too much for some. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] Interested to replace the 'meat' bit in meals with something home
made so I followed a burger recipe on Youtube that was based around
black beans (all pulses are very good for you), that you can form when
finished into a sausage shape, or pate or chop and then fry / bake /
grill and then it both fills the space we are used to seeing that sort
of thing in and the taste / texture (to a reasonable level, and as you
say, it's all only learned behaviour). ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3vuBRUSV_8

It actually covers some of the things we have said about peoples
ignorance about vegetarianism / veganism, and the recipe (and that
anyone can do it, including a loud comedian). ;-)

(I made a tub of it that kept in the fridge for a good time and served
us over several different types of meal. I didn't use some of the
'extra' bits, like mustard and was the first time I'd used / eaten
quinoa etc).
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 20:00:33 +0100,
(#Paul) wrote:

T i m wrote:
Did they evolve naturally? If they did then left in their natural
environment they would survive or not like any other creature?


Although farmed animals did indeed start by evolving naturally,
selective breeding for things like milk production (cows) and
wool growth (sheep) means that they now essentially rely on human
management - the cows *have* to be milked, the sheep *have* to
be shorn.


Yup.

Their "natural environment" is now on a farm, managed
by humans.


So naturally unnatural. ;-)

If we (humans) got wiped out by say a pandemic (that may have started
by our exploitation of animals etc), those mutated livestock would
die.

I make no comment as to whether this is good for them or not; but
it is certainly the way it is.


I'm pretty sure it isn't. Imagine being trapped with a situation that
you couldn't survive without human intervention, like having an itch
you can't scratch. ;-(

If we stopped drinking their milk and wearing their wool (&etc),


I'm glad you phrased it that way Paul as it's a very important point
.... 'their'.

the animals would gradually die out
as farmers made the economic choices they need to - c.f.


Quite, just has *every* trade that changed over the years, like slave
traders, wheelwrights, thatchers, miners, hangmen and witch finders
etc. ;-)

the
fate of many breeds of draft horse.


Yup ... and personally I won't miss them (only because they shouldn't
be here in the first place, they haven't 'evolved' over millennia, we
have forced particular characteristics, many of which end up costing
the animal in some way (genetic weaknesses, especially, the inability
to survive in the wild or even reproduce!)).

Cheers, T i m
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 01:24:45 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

I don't have slaves,


snip

Yes you do.

Cheers, T i m
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On 26/04/2021 15:34, T i m wrote:


No, they would be allowed to live out their natural lives after being
sterilised.


Who pays for that ?. Ain't free or cheap.

And how more tax are you, personally prepared to pay ?, in order
to feed them, house them and pay for vetinary bills (because if
you keep them confined and they need vetinary attention, and they
are prevented from getting it, then the RSPCA will prosecute you).

Now tot up the total number of cows, sheep, pigs, geese, ducks
etc.

Please don't bother with 'let them roam freely' argument, because
you cannot allow dairy bulls to roam free. They are dangerous.

There is no 'free' NHS for anaimals, and your bonkers plan would
cost so much, we would no longer have the money for a 'free' NHS
for humans.


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On 26/04/2021 15:36, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:07:48 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 14:03, T i m wrote:

Nope, just someone very used to ****ing on trolls in their ever
deepening holes. ;-)


You really don't get it do you ?.


Erm, 'yes' and even though you are thick, you might too one day.

The only hole is the one
that you are in, and have been for quite some time now.


Oh the irony. Is it so dark in there you can't see where *you* are?

Cheers, T i m


In *where* ??. I live in the real world, and it is sunny today. Not
sure about your La-La land though.
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On 26/04/2021 15:39, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:47:32 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 02:01, Fredxx wrote:

It's a simple question. How many cows, sheep, pigs, geese would exist in
say the UK if everyone was a fanatic vegan?


Very few. A whole group of species and sub-species, like Herdwick
sheep and Gloucester cows would die out unless enough wealthy
bankers use their bonuses to become hobby farmers and pay to
keep them alive.


Correct answer.


what correct answer ?. That misquided clowns like you would happily
exterminate entire breeds, or large parts of, simply to suit their
warped personal agenda ?.


D i m cannot bring himself to provide his solution to the
inevitable law of unintended consequences


Why would I want or need to?


Just about sums you up doesn't it ?.

Did they evolve naturally? If they did then left in their natural
environment they would survive or not like any other creature?

But don't worry, the penny might drop with you at some point.


Drop where ?, and from whence is "it" going to fall from ?
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On 27/04/2021 01:39, Fredxx wrote:


Slaughtermen don't take human lives. Their job is a necessity to provide
food for your dog and provide the necessary nutrients for families as
part of a healthy balanced diet.


Doesn't seem to affect surgeons carrying out organ transplants
or hip-joint replacements day after day.

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On 26/04/2021 15:14, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:04:24 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 10:35, T i m wrote:

We see a lorry with 10,000 fox fur pelts and we may not be upset at
all (vegans would of course because we understand the holocaust that
created such).


My grandfather was pretty upset when he came out one morning
to find that all his hens were dead, inside their henhouse
because a fox had managed to dig his way in overnight.

Foxes kill for amusement too you know.


sigh I though we had put that old chestnut to bed ages ago.

Foxes and many other animals are 'opportunistic hunters / scavengers
and will often kill / collect what they can and hide / bury some of it
to consume later.


Utter BS. Foxes enjoy killing. To them it is just a real-life
snuff movie. Period.

If they had any brains they would just kill the one they need for
that day, and then come back on subsequent days, but they don't.

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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:26:26 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 15:39, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:47:32 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 02:01, Fredxx wrote:

It's a simple question. How many cows, sheep, pigs, geese would exist in
say the UK if everyone was a fanatic vegan?

Very few. A whole group of species and sub-species, like Herdwick
sheep and Gloucester cows would die out unless enough wealthy
bankers use their bonuses to become hobby farmers and pay to
keep them alive.


Correct answer.


what correct answer ?.


That one ^^^

That misquided clowns like you would happily
exterminate entire breeds,


'Exterminate', ah, part Dalek, that explains a lot about you!

Q. Would these breeds be here if we hadn't bred them? If no then if we
didn't keep breeding them and they died out, nothing has changed.

or large parts of, simply to suit their
warped personal agenda ?.


You don't need a full stop and question mark.


D i m cannot bring himself to provide his solution to the
inevitable law of unintended consequences


Why would I want or need to?


Just about sums you up doesn't it ?.


What, that I'm not a scientist? Who said I was?

Did they evolve naturally? If they did then left in their natural
environment they would survive or not like any other creature?

But don't worry, the penny might drop with you at some point.


Drop where ?, and from whence is "it" going to fall from ?


For you, it will be from the top of the hole you keep digging,
probably by someone thinking it was a wishing well.

Cheers, T i m



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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:21:25 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 15:34, T i m wrote:


No, they would be allowed to live out their natural lives after being
sterilised.


Who pays for that ?. Ain't free or cheap.


Anyone who actually cares for animals. Same as with any 'rescue'
today.

And how more tax are you, personally prepared to pay ?, in order
to feed them,


They would look after themselves (sheep in these areas I'm told we
can't otherwise use). People offering to let them live out their
natural lives in return for the cows cutting their grass (as they are
doing now).

house them and pay for vetinary bills (because if
you keep them confined and they need vetinary attention, and they
are prevented from getting it, then the RSPCA will prosecute you).


Then they will be slaughtered as planned?

Now tot up the total number of cows, sheep, pigs, geese, ducks
etc.


42?

Please don't bother with 'let them roam freely' argument, because
you cannot allow dairy bulls to roam free. They are dangerous.


See above. 5 years on, all gone.

There is no 'free' NHS for anaimals,


Of course there is. Vets are obliged to look after injured wild
animals and there are plenty of rescues that are funded by supporters
(so the animals don't have to pay).

and your bonkers plan would
cost so much, we would no longer have the money for a 'free' NHS
for humans.


Aww, so the rabbit hole you worked your way down doesn't work. Now
that is a surprise.

I bet if you weren't such a **** you could easily figure out how you
could make it work ... if it didn't mean you had to stop causing
animals unnecessary suffering and death etc?

Cheers, T i m

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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:22:42 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 15:36, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:07:48 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 14:03, T i m wrote:

Nope, just someone very used to ****ing on trolls in their ever
deepening holes. ;-)

You really don't get it do you ?.


Erm, 'yes' and even though you are thick, you might too one day.

The only hole is the one
that you are in, and have been for quite some time now.


Oh the irony. Is it so dark in there you can't see where *you* are?


In *where* ??.


You really are thick aren't you? Get your carer to explain where to
you, just from the text left in this post.

I live in the real world, and it is sunny today.


Lovely, thanks for the weather check.

Not
sure about your La-La land though.


Of course you aren't. And by 'my', you would have to consider the
weather all around the world as that's where you will find people
caring about animals.

Cheers, T i m

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In message , Andrew
writes
On 26/04/2021 15:14, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:04:24 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 10:35, T i m wrote:

We see a lorry with 10,000 fox fur pelts and we may not be upset at
all (vegans would of course because we understand the holocaust that
created such).


My grandfather was pretty upset when he came out one morning
to find that all his hens were dead, inside their henhouse
because a fox had managed to dig his way in overnight.

Foxes kill for amusement too you know.

sigh I though we had put that old chestnut to bed ages ago.
Foxes and many other animals are 'opportunistic hunters / scavengers
and will often kill / collect what they can and hide / bury some of it
to consume later.


Utter BS. Foxes enjoy killing. To them it is just a real-life
snuff movie. Period.

If they had any brains they would just kill the one they need for
that day, and then come back on subsequent days, but they don't.


Foxes do bury food. Bits of Rabbit, Mallard eggs etc. can be found in my
garden. Frenzied killing may be just that or extreme opportunism.


--
Tim Lamb
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:36:13 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 15:14, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:04:24 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 10:35, T i m wrote:

We see a lorry with 10,000 fox fur pelts and we may not be upset at
all (vegans would of course because we understand the holocaust that
created such).


My grandfather was pretty upset when he came out one morning
to find that all his hens were dead, inside their henhouse
because a fox had managed to dig his way in overnight.

Foxes kill for amusement too you know.


sigh I though we had put that old chestnut to bed ages ago.

Foxes and many other animals are 'opportunistic hunters / scavengers
and will often kill / collect what they can and hide / bury some of it
to consume later.


Utter BS.


Complete fact, as you have since been told by someone who knows (a
farmer).

Foxes enjoy killing.


'Enjoy' like you enjoying meat, when you can (and do of course) eat
loads of other things ... or to 'survive' because unlike you, they
can't just pop up the shops whenever they like?

To them it is just a real-life
snuff movie. Period.


Every time you blurt this ****e out you demonstrate even further what
a stupid troll you are.

Foxes are also know to go into a chicken coop and kill and remove just
one chicken, it depends on the fox, situation how the rest of the
chickens behave.

https://ibb.co/j3vCJxf

If they had any brains they would just kill the one they need for
that day, and then come back on subsequent days, but they don't.


Yeah, with their contactless payment I'm guessing and like they
*would* be able to get back the next day, hole still in the wire and
chickens still just sitting there (they know all that do they)?

It seems you don't even understand the word 'opportunistic'!

Cheers, T i m

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"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Andrew
writes
On 26/04/2021 15:14, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:04:24 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 10:35, T i m wrote:

We see a lorry with 10,000 fox fur pelts and we may not be upset at
all (vegans would of course because we understand the holocaust that
created such).


My grandfather was pretty upset when he came out one morning
to find that all his hens were dead, inside their henhouse
because a fox had managed to dig his way in overnight.

Foxes kill for amusement too you know.
sigh I though we had put that old chestnut to bed ages ago.
Foxes and many other animals are 'opportunistic hunters / scavengers
and will often kill / collect what they can and hide / bury some of it
to consume later.


Utter BS. Foxes enjoy killing. To them it is just a real-life
snuff movie. Period.

If they had any brains they would just kill the one they need for
that day, and then come back on subsequent days, but they don't.


Foxes do bury food. Bits of Rabbit, Mallard eggs etc. can be found in my
garden.


Frenzied killing may be just that or extreme opportunism.


Or that one is a psychopath driven to that by D I M.



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"Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

--
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"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
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T i m wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:36:13 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 15:14, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:04:24 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 10:35, T i m wrote:

We see a lorry with 10,000 fox fur pelts and we may not be upset at
all (vegans would of course because we understand the holocaust that
created such).


My grandfather was pretty upset when he came out one morning
to find that all his hens were dead, inside their henhouse
because a fox had managed to dig his way in overnight.

Foxes kill for amusement too you know.

sigh I though we had put that old chestnut to bed ages ago.

Foxes and many other animals are 'opportunistic hunters / scavengers
and will often kill / collect what they can and hide / bury some of it
to consume later.


Utter BS.


Complete fact, as you have since been told by someone who knows (a
farmer).




Anyone who has had their chicken coup raided by a fox will tell you
otherwise. If you were correct the fox would kill and take a few chickens
not tear a dozen to shreds and probably leave with no more than a leg going
by the bits left once collected up.






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Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andrew
writes
On 26/04/2021 15:14, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:04:24 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 10:35, T i m wrote:

We see a lorry with 10,000 fox fur pelts and we may not be upset at
all (vegans would of course because we understand the holocaust that
created such).


My grandfather was pretty upset when he came out one morning
to find that all his hens were dead, inside their henhouse
because a fox had managed to dig his way in overnight.

Foxes kill for amusement too you know.
sigh I though we had put that old chestnut to bed ages ago.
Foxes and many other animals are 'opportunistic hunters / scavengers
and will often kill / collect what they can and hide / bury some of it
to consume later.


Utter BS. Foxes enjoy killing. To them it is just a real-life
snuff movie. Period.

If they had any brains they would just kill the one they need for
that day, and then come back on subsequent days, but they don't.


Foxes do bury food. Bits of Rabbit, Mallard eggs etc. can be found in my
garden. Frenzied killing may be just that or extreme opportunism.



If the get into a chicken coup they will kill as many as they can and may
not even take any going by the body parts left. In the wild they dont get
the opportunity. Tim is as usual taking nonsense anyone who has a had a
chicken coup raided will confirm what I say. Tim will blame the death of
chickens on the coup owner.

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On 27/04/2021 21:48, Radio Man wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andrew
writes
On 26/04/2021 15:14, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:04:24 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 26/04/2021 10:35, T i m wrote:

We see a lorry with 10,000 fox fur pelts and we may not be upset at
all (vegans would of course because we understand the holocaust that
created such).


My grandfather was pretty upset when he came out one morning
to find that all his hens were dead, inside their henhouse
because a fox had managed to dig his way in overnight.

Foxes kill for amusement too you know.
sigh I though we had put that old chestnut to bed ages ago.
Foxes and many other animals are 'opportunistic hunters / scavengers
and will often kill / collect what they can and hide / bury some of it
to consume later.


Utter BS. Foxes enjoy killing. To them it is just a real-life
snuff movie. Period.

If they had any brains they would just kill the one they need for
that day, and then come back on subsequent days, but they don't.


Foxes do bury food. Bits of Rabbit, Mallard eggs etc. can be found in my
garden. Frenzied killing may be just that or extreme opportunism.



If the get into a chicken coup they will kill as many as they can


So we'd better eat the buggers before they stage it.

and may
not even take any going by the body parts left. In the wild they dont get
the opportunity. Tim is as usual taking nonsense anyone who has a had a
chicken coup raided will confirm what I say. Tim will blame the death of
chickens on the coup owner.



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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 20:48:40 -0000 (UTC), Radio Man
wrote:

snip
Foxes and many other animals are 'opportunistic hunters / scavengers
and will often kill / collect what they can and hide / bury some of it
to consume later.


Utter BS.


Complete fact, as you have since been told by someone who knows (a
farmer).


Anyone who has had their chicken coup raided by a fox will tell you
otherwise.


What, that many animals are opportunistic hunters and will often take
any 'surplus' kills and bury them for later? Nope, 100% fact.

Can some animals, when they come across them in an unnatural
unsuitably protected enclosed space [1], (like chickens, 'cooped up'
in a cage) may go into a frenzy and kill them all? Of course. Could
the then be disturbed and not eat anything there or take anything
away, again, of course.

Do some animals appear to kill but not take / eat their catch, of
course. This can be part of them honing their skills or providing
food for others of their kind or their own offspring, or even training
their offspring (as can be seen with killer whales 'playing' with a
seal).

Never seen a well fed non native cat hunting but not killing or eating
their native prey? You must be ok with that as you haven't highlighted
it here, or would it only be an issue if it broke into someone's
aviary?

If you were correct the fox would kill and take a few chickens
not tear a dozen to shreds and probably leave with no more than a leg going
by the bits left once collected up.


I am correct, just because of the few examples you may 'know of'
resulted on the fox killing everything it can find but not appearing
to eat or remove anything proves nothing.

Many animals appear to be very selective how they hunt / kill and how
much of any kill they ever eat. Like bear feeding on spawning salmon
*only* eating the fish brains or eggs because they have the highest
levels of protein and because of the numbers of fish, they can.

So, what was your goal here, because if it was to 'prove me wrong' you
have failed (again).

You try to prove me wrong to try to discredit my vegan message because
you want to carry on exploiting animals unquestioned.

Cheers, T i m

[1] When daughter has a couple of rescue rabbits it was noted by a
neighbour that a fox had been paying attention to them one night. So
we fitted an electric 'fence' and the rabbits were never taken or the
hutch attacked.

Take an chicken that would in nature, roost in the tress, well out of
the way of predators like foxes and you are surprised they (foxes)
don't act 'rationally' when they find some all boxed up for them!
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