On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 09:40:46 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 24/03/2021 09:26, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Hmm, Having experienced what some idiots do with trailing sockets, like
plugging two fan heaters in and wondering why its getting hot, I do question
the lack of a fuse or fuses for each outlet if you are going to make them
like that. OK you will have a 13 amp in its plug, but the one I recall had a
so called 13 amp in the socket bar too, and nether blew with two three kw
heaters on full power. I kind of wonder about fuse ratings myself.

Fuses have different speeds of melting at different currents and also a
tolerance band. At the low end of the band, a 13A fuse will pass
slightly over 20A indefinitely, at the high end, it is more like 25A.
Plus the heaters are likely not quite 3kw, so 2 off 3kW heaters is
perfectly possible.

I tend to replace any plug tops that come with anything likely to draw
a reasonable load (1000W+) and especially for an extended period (like
an electric heater) with MK ones (the rigid plastic jobs) as they
don't seem to get as warm in use as some of the lighter / cheaper ones
do. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 24/03/2021 17:53, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:57:21 +0000, wrote:

snip

What part of what I think of you (from the stuff you have come out
with in the past) and then being interested in anything you say, don't
you get?


Oh dear. Just let go of whatever grievance you think you have and get on
with life,

You probably haven't noticed (for good reason I'm sure) that I don't
typically reply to any of these trolls?

Only when they provide supported facts you'd rather not read.

rather than shouting at someone you don't know.

I know enough about ****headxx to know that I wouldn't **** on him if
he was on fire (and 'shouting' ... ).

That says more about your love for fellow humans that you can possibly
imagine.

You wouldn't
(I hope) act like this face-to-face

See above. Up to him poking his ignorant nose in (and me calling him
out for the fun of it), this thread was polite and informative.

It was until someone starting proffering abuse.

so why do you think it's OK to do it
on a discussion forum?

You are new here yes?

I think he will already have you down to a tee.

Anonymity, perhaps?

Well, my name and email are valid so ... ?

So still anonymous then.

Have you actually looked at:
spaced.me.uk

And Nominet's entry:
Nominet was not able to match the registrant's name and/or address
against a 3rd party source on 15-Jan-2013

My name is valid too.

On 24/03/2021 18:01, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:41:24 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****

Seriously, you need to get help.

(For the hard of thinking) When that is the case, can you accept it
won't be wanted or accepted from you (no matter how confusing that is
bound to be to you) and irrespective of how much Googling you have
done on the subject?

No googling was required.

The links, showing a forum exchange of how writes to a SD card in a
Raspberry Pi could be stopped, were in a series of personal emails with
a colleague from some 18 months ago. The only search was the contents of
my emails.

As I said, you need help and to love fellow mankind, however much you
hate people who can justify their naturally healthy diet.

Yes, I accept you don't like reading facts you wish weren't true.

On 24/03/2021 17:53, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:57:21 +0000, wrote:

snip

What part of what I think of you (from the stuff you have come out
with in the past) and then being interested in anything you say, don't
you get?


Oh dear. Just let go of whatever grievance you think you have and get on
with life,

You probably haven't noticed (for good reason I'm sure) that I don't
typically reply to any of these trolls?

rather than shouting at someone you don't know.

I know enough about ****headxx to know that I wouldn't **** on him if
he was on fire (and 'shouting' ... ).

You wouldn't
(I hope) act like this face-to-face

See above. Up to him poking his ignorant nose in (and me calling him
out for the fun of it), this thread was polite and informative.

so why do you think it's OK to do it
on a discussion forum?

You are new here yes?
Far from it, but I don't see why any sensible person would choose to
interact with people online differently to how they interact face-to-face.
However, this has nothing to do with DIY so no reply is needed as I
won't be playing message ping-pong.

Anonymity, perhaps?

Well, my name and email are valid so ... ?

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 18:21:06 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****

OOI, will there ever be a point where it will dawn on you I really
CGAF what *you* think or say about *anything*?

So, can I suggest you get yourself a life and stop trying to live one
vicariously though me and mine?

I'll continue not responding to you and you offer me the same respect?

Cheers, T i m

On 24/03/2021 20:17, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 18:21:06 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****

OOI, will there ever be a point where it will dawn on you I really
CGAF what *you* think or say about *anything*?

You must do, or you wouldn't have replied. You really didn't have to.

So, can I suggest you get yourself a life and stop trying to live one
vicariously though me and mine?

I only post to correct you, or add something I feel might be useful for
others too. Like how stop any writes to a SD card in a Raspberry Pi.

I'll continue not responding to you and you offer me the same respect?

I promise to the above. If you don't post anything I feel obliged to
correct or I should add for the better good.

If you post nonsense like,

"Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice
for a serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not
good for long term writes?"

I will respond when with simply modifying a config file there are no
more writes and so the SD card may well outlast the RPi.

Best killfile me, then you won't see corrections I'm obliged, for the
better good, to correct.

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:29:41 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip cowardly troll ****e

If you post nonsense like,

"Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice
for a serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not
good for long term writes?"

Right, so where do you think HA writes all the log / history / config
files to then, volatile RAM or space? Or all the OS updates or HA
updates (that happen pretty regularly).

And before you try to squirm out of it like you *always* do, we were
talking SPECIFICALLY about running Home Assistant on a RPi here,
nothing else.

So, I wonder what the chances are of an apology from you are,
especially since you stated publicly that you give them out when they
are due? I'm guessing none, because I was right and you are just a
lying troll.

I will respond when with simply modifying a config file there are no
more writes and so the SD card may well outlast the RPi.

See above faceplanter. As usual you don't have an f'ing clue.

Best killfile me, then you won't see corrections I'm obliged, for the
better good, to correct.

'You are obliged' ... listen to yourself FFS, who do you think you
are??

No, you keep 'correcting me' and I will keep feeling sorry that you
really can't see yourself for what you really are, a sad little troll.
;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 24/03/2021 23:21, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:29:41 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip cowardly troll ****e

The truth hurts.

If you post nonsense like,

"Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice
for a serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not
good for long term writes?"

Right, so where do you think HA writes all the log / history / config
files to then, volatile RAM or space? Or all the OS updates or HA
updates (that happen pretty regularly).

I don't know the details of your "Home Automation thing" setup.

However any writes to the SD don't haven, and the overlay file system is
volatile and lost on power down.

You could stop the writing to the SD once you've setup your chosen defaults.

And before you try to squirm out of it like you *always* do, we were
talking SPECIFICALLY about running Home Assistant on a RPi here,
nothing else.

I'm not squirming, I was simply correcting your erroneous claim, "Ah,
just remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice for a
serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good
for long term writes?"

It's also why I suggested an external SSD in a caddy connected to your
USB port as an effective alternative to writing to an SD card if you
want a long lasting system where writes are common place.

So, I wonder what the chances are of an apology from you are,
especially since you stated publicly that you give them out when they
are due? I'm guessing none, because I was right and you are just a
lying troll.

I apologise for correcting you when you're wrong. Will that do?

I will respond when with simply modifying a config file there are no
more writes and so the SD card may well outlast the RPi.

See above faceplanter. As usual you don't have an f'ing clue.

Sheesh, when was the last time you wrote code for the Pi, or wrote an
application for Linux or Windows.

Best killfile me, then you won't see corrections I'm obliged, for the
better good, to correct.

'You are obliged' ... listen to yourself FFS, who do you think you
are??

When you spout nonsense, yes I am obliged.

No, you keep 'correcting me' and I will keep feeling sorry that you
really can't see yourself for what you really are, a sad little troll.
;-(

Yet you conform to all the attributes of a troll, someone who spouts
nonsense as facts and doesn't like being corrected.

Now, how many trillion animals did you say are slaughtered every year?

Go and get help and killfile me and others you call trolls.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 01:02:23 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

On 24/03/2021 23:21, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:29:41 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip cowardly troll ****e

The truth hurts.

Nope, it was just more cowardly troll ****e. Making accusations from
bogus assumptions because you simply can't help yourself.

If you post nonsense like,

"Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice
for a serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not
good for long term writes?"

Right, so where do you think HA writes all the log / history / config
files to then, volatile RAM or space? Or all the OS updates or HA
updates (that happen pretty regularly).

I don't know the details of your "Home Automation thing" setup.

Of course you don't ... because if you had you wouldn't have offered
that bollox solution as a form of 'help'!!!

However any writes to the SD don't haven, and the overlay file system is
volatile and lost on power down.

I know, I've been running RPI's since the first one and have updated
the firmware on a 3B to boot from SSD like my RPi4's can. My OMV NAS
runs on a PRi2b and a 3TB USB drive. TVHeadend is also running on a
PRi3b but only to the SD card atm. The chances are your arrogant
assumptions re what I know about RPi's led you to the ignorance that
'obliged' you to **** up so badly in public again.

You could stop the writing to the SD once you've setup your chosen defaults.

Ignorant ****. Have you really never heard of log files, history,
automations, OS upgrades and system updates? These are going on 'ALL
THE TIME' and so making the system read only would render it useless.
Like your advice to me here.

And before you try to squirm out of it like you *always* do, we were
talking SPECIFICALLY about running Home Assistant on a RPi here,
nothing else.

I'm not squirming, I was simply correcting your erroneous claim, "Ah,
just remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice for a
serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good
for long term writes?"

Except, in this situation, it wasn't erroneous, it was technically
100% correct. Apologise or STFU.

It's also why I suggested an external SSD in a caddy connected to your
USB port as an effective alternative to writing to an SD card if you
want a long lasting system where writes are common place.

If I wanted to do that I would have done so. I *certainly* didn't need
(or want) your advice on that. The fact that you are still insisting
on this matter is part of your problem. I know you can't help
yourself. It must be a very confusing world for you.

So, I wonder what the chances are of an apology from you are,
especially since you stated publicly that you give them out when they
are due? I'm guessing none, because I was right and you are just a
lying troll.

I apologise for correcting you when you're wrong. Will that do?

No, I want a real apology. One where you don't try to correct me when
I'm 100% right (again).

I will respond when with simply modifying a config file there are no
more writes and so the SD card may well outlast the RPi.

See above faceplanter. As usual you don't have an f'ing clue.

Sheesh, when was the last time you wrote code for the Pi, or wrote an
application for Linux or Windows.

Irrelevant but if that was the case, you may have realised that there
could be more to it than your blinkered view? We are talking
specifically about Home Assistant running on a RPi here, nothing else.
More specifically, the 'known issues' of something *Running* from a
uSD card (RPi) V something that doesn't (Odroid N2+/ eMMC)).

Secondly, to retain a 'supported' installation status, Home Assistant
needs to be installed and run following some fairly strict guidelines,
something else I'm guessing you didn't know before offering me advice.

Now, had you said: 'Would you be able to run your RPI off an external
hard drive ... ' that might have been different ... but you didn't.
You started your 'help' with "You do realise ..." which is not the
same thing. You may not be able to see why, that is part of your
problem.

Best killfile me, then you won't see corrections I'm obliged, for the
better good, to correct.

'You are obliged' ... listen to yourself FFS, who do you think you
are??

When you spout nonsense, yes I am obliged.

And it seems you are also 'obliged' when I don't (which is actually
most of the time). You really should learn the difference between your
opinion and fact. I know it's difficult for people like you, but give
it a try.

No, you keep 'correcting me' and I will keep feeling sorry that you
really can't see yourself for what you really are, a sad little troll.
;-(

snip more examples of troll ****e

Cheers, T i m

On 25/03/2021 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 01:02:23 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

On 24/03/2021 23:21, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:29:41 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip cowardly troll ****e

The truth hurts.

Nope, it was just more cowardly troll ****e. Making accusations from
bogus assumptions because you simply can't help yourself.

Pointing out, "You do realise that the RPi can load from SD card and
then no more writes. So no writing at all once the image is loaded onto
the card" was not an accusation.

If you post nonsense like,

"Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice
for a serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not
good for long term writes?"

Right, so where do you think HA writes all the log / history / config
files to then, volatile RAM or space? Or all the OS updates or HA
updates (that happen pretty regularly).

I don't know the details of your "Home Automation thing" setup.

Of course you don't ... because if you had you wouldn't have offered
that bollox solution as a form of 'help'!!!

It may not be your chosen solution but for many it is.

However any writes to the SD don't haven, and the overlay file system is
volatile and lost on power down.

I know, I've been running RPI's since the first one and have updated
the firmware on a 3B to boot from SSD like my RPi4's can. My OMV NAS
runs on a PRi2b and a 3TB USB drive. TVHeadend is also running on a
PRi3b but only to the SD card atm. The chances are your arrogant
assumptions re what I know about RPi's led you to the ignorance that
'obliged' you to **** up so badly in public again.

Is that your embarrassment?

That you claim to know everything about the Raspberry Pi, but hate being
told "You do realise that the RPi can load from SD card and then no more
writes. So no writing at all once the image is loaded onto the card".

You could stop the writing to the SD once you've setup your chosen defaults.

Ignorant ****. Have you really never heard of log files, history,
automations, OS upgrades and system updates? These are going on 'ALL
THE TIME' and so making the system read only would render it useless.
Like your advice to me here.

They are optional, and I only look at log files if there has been a
problem.Updates are also optional.

I confess I don't studiously go through log files in the hope of seeing
something interesting.

And before you try to squirm out of it like you *always* do, we were
talking SPECIFICALLY about running Home Assistant on a RPi here,
nothing else.

I'm not squirming, I was simply correcting your erroneous claim, "Ah,
just remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice for a
serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good
for long term writes?"

Except, in this situation, it wasn't erroneous, it was technically
100% correct. Apologise or STFU.

I'm sorry if I pointed out "You do realise that the RPi can load from SD
card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once the image is
loaded onto the card" and this wasn't your chosen solution.

It's also why I suggested an external SSD in a caddy connected to your
USB port as an effective alternative to writing to an SD card if you
want a long lasting system where writes are common place.

If I wanted to do that I would have done so. I *certainly* didn't need
(or want) your advice on that. The fact that you are still insisting
on this matter is part of your problem. I know you can't help
yourself. It must be a very confusing world for you.

Given you seem to think the facility didn't exist, that's very hard to
believe.

So, I wonder what the chances are of an apology from you are,
especially since you stated publicly that you give them out when they
are due? I'm guessing none, because I was right and you are just a
lying troll.

I apologise for correcting you when you're wrong. Will that do?

No, I want a real apology. One where you don't try to correct me when
I'm 100% right (again).

I'm truly very sorry if I pointed out "You do realise that the RPi can
load from SD card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once the
image is loaded onto the card" and this wasn't your chosen solution.

I will respond when with simply modifying a config file there are no
more writes and so the SD card may well outlast the RPi.

See above faceplanter. As usual you don't have an f'ing clue.

Sheesh, when was the last time you wrote code for the Pi, or wrote an
application for Linux or Windows.

Irrelevant but if that was the case, you may have realised that there
could be more to it than your blinkered view? We are talking
specifically about Home Assistant running on a RPi here, nothing else.
More specifically, the 'known issues' of something *Running* from a
uSD card (RPi) V something that doesn't (Odroid N2+/ eMMC)).

Ah, so experience is irrelevant. Nice one. So we should discount "I've
been running RPI's since the first one and have updated the firmware on
a 3B to boot from SSD like my RPi4's can" as being irrelevant.

Secondly, to retain a 'supported' installation status, Home Assistant
needs to be installed and run following some fairly strict guidelines,
something else I'm guessing you didn't know before offering me advice.

The Raspberry Pi is deigned for people with no or little programming or
computer system experience. So your, "fairly strict guidelines" for most
experienced people would be expected.

Now, had you said: 'Would you be able to run your RPI off an external
hard drive ... ' that might have been different ... but you didn't.
You started your 'help' with "You do realise ..." which is not the
same thing. You may not be able to see why, that is part of your
problem.

Except you chastised me for the idea. Please do make up your mind.

Best killfile me, then you won't see corrections I'm obliged, for the
better good, to correct.

'You are obliged' ... listen to yourself FFS, who do you think you
are??

When you spout nonsense, yes I am obliged.

And it seems you are also 'obliged' when I don't (which is actually
most of the time). You really should learn the difference between your
opinion and fact. I know it's difficult for people like you, but give
it a try.

It is a fact, "that the RPi can load from SD card and then no more
writes. So no writing at all once the image is loaded onto the card"
when you imply otherwise.

Mine was fact, your opinion was garbage.

No, you keep 'correcting me' and I will keep feeling sorry that you
really can't see yourself for what you really are, a sad little troll.
;-(

snip more examples of troll ****e

More truth you don't like to hear. I'll repeat the salient points.


Now, how many trillion animals did you say are slaughtered every year?

Go and get help and killfile me and others you call trolls.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 11:30:23 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:
snip troll distraction strawmen and ****e

Except, in this situation, it wasn't erroneous, it was technically
100% correct. Apologise or STFU.

I'm sorry if I pointed out "You do realise that the RPi can load from SD
card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once the image is
loaded onto the card" and this wasn't your chosen solution.

snip more unread ... and I'll continue to do so

Nope, just a straight apology for all the BS when your 'solution'
wasn't relevant for *ANY* RPi HA installation. NO exceptions or
provisos.

You stated publicly you apologise when you are wrong, so do it, or
continue to be the disingenuous lying troll I believe you are.

Cheers, T i m

On 25/03/2021 12:01, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 11:30:23 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:
snip troll distraction strawmen and ****e

Except, in this situation, it wasn't erroneous, it was technically
100% correct. Apologise or STFU.

I'm sorry if I pointed out "You do realise that the RPi can load from SD
card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once the image is
loaded onto the card" and this wasn't your chosen solution.

snip more unread ... and I'll continue to do so

Nope, just a straight apology for all the BS when your 'solution'
wasn't relevant for *ANY* RPi HA installation. NO exceptions or
provisos.

If I did it would be a lie. The solution has already been used in a real
installation. As I said, the Pi will probably give out before the SD
card. Less corruption of the SD contents in the event of power failure too.

I apologise for you not understanding,
"You do realise that the RPi can load from SD card and then no more
writes. So no writing at all once the image is loaded onto the card".

where you replied,
"Ok, explain *exactly* what you mean by that (knowing just how
disingenuous you are on most things)".

You stated publicly you apologise when you are wrong, so do it, or
continue to be the disingenuous lying troll I believe you are.

Clearly I am wrong, and I truly and humbly apologise if this is not your
preferred solution.

Now accept the following petition, so that geese can be reared with a
unforced eating regime.

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliame...t-of-fois-gras

Since we are no longer a member of the EU, a ban is now achievable.
Hooray on both counts. :-)

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 13:04:00 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****e

You stated publicly you apologise when you are wrong, so do it, or
continue to be the disingenuous lying troll I believe you are.

Clearly I am wrong, and I truly and humbly apologise if this is not your
preferred solution.

Nope, not good enough. I don't need the 'humbly' bit because I know
you are incapable of being such, so just a straight apology for trying
to offer then convince me that your bogus solution would be any use
what so ever for me and HA.

snip more troll distraction

You just_can't_do_it can you, making you the liar I said you were.
What a shame, given you stated in public that you would always
apologise when you were wrong.

That's probably pointless though, given you will never accept when you
are wrong, even though all the facts that prove that you are.

Cheers, T i m

On 25/03/2021 14:08, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 13:04:00 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****e

You stated publicly you apologise when you are wrong, so do it, or
continue to be the disingenuous lying troll I believe you are.

Clearly I am wrong, and I truly and humbly apologise if this is not your
preferred solution.

Nope, not good enough. I don't need the 'humbly' bit because I know
you are incapable of being such, so just a straight apology for trying
to offer then convince me that your bogus solution would be any use
what so ever for me and HA.

Once again:
If I did it would be a lie. The solution has already been used in a real
installation. As I said, the Pi will probably give out before the SD
card. Less corruption of the SD contents in the event of power failure too.

I apologise for you not understanding,
"You do realise that the RPi can load from SD card and then no more
writes. So no writing at all once the image is loaded onto the card".

where you replied,
"Ok, explain *exactly* what you mean by that (knowing just how
disingenuous you are on most things)".


snip more troll distraction

Hardly a distraction, a means to show your true colours that you DGAS
about animal welfare.
You just_can't_do_it can you, making you the liar I said you were.
What a shame, given you stated in public that you would always
apologise when you were wrong.

Oh I can, clearly I am wrong, and I truly apologise if this is not your
preferred solution.

I left out the humbly specially for you.

That's probably pointless though, given you will never accept when you
are wrong, even though all the facts that prove that you are.

Can you accept you didn't know "that the RPi can load from SD card and
then no more writes. So no writing at all once the image is loaded onto
the card"? Is that so hard to accept you prefer to snip the question in
your reply?

Now, how many trillion animals did you say are slaughtered every year?

Go and get help and killfile me and others you call trolls.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 14:19:03 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****e

You just_can't_do_it can you, making you the liar I said you were.
What a shame, given you stated in public that you would always
apologise when you were wrong.

Oh I can, clearly I am wrong,

Well, that's a given ...

and I truly apologise

No you don't, you couldn't 'truly' anything because you don't have a
soul.

if this is not your
preferred solution.

No, it's not *the* 'preferred solution' for the vast majority of HA on
RPi users so why did you think it would be mine? Answer, once again
you 'assumed' and once again, got it wrong. Stop digging.

I didn't ask for your help, I didn't want your help and your 'help'
was no help ... yet you arrogantly continue to welch on your public
promise that you 'always apologise' when you were wrong. Your efforts
so far make you a lying coward?

Prove me wrong by apologising properly.

Cheers, T i m

On 25/03/2021 15:14, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 14:19:03 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****e

More home truths you don't like to hear.

You just_can't_do_it can you, making you the liar I said you were.
What a shame, given you stated in public that you would always
apologise when you were wrong.

Oh I can, clearly I am wrong,

Well, that's a given ...

Always for you.

and I truly apologise

No you don't, you couldn't 'truly' anything because you don't have a
soul.

That's not what I've been told. Animals are said not to have a soul by
religious people. Since I don't believe I am immortal, I can't therefore
have a soul.

DO you believe in some mythical deity like Father Christmas perchance?

if this is not your
preferred solution.

No, it's not *the* 'preferred solution' for the vast majority of HA on
RPi users so why did you think it would be mine? Answer, once again
you 'assumed' and once again, got it wrong. Stop digging.

I apologise for never saying it was your preferred solution.

I didn't ask for your help,

I was merely correcting your assertion of "Ah, just remembered, I think
the RPi is not considered the best choice for a serious / long term
system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good for long term
writes?", when for many where your claim simply isn't true.

If you require logging and are continuous changing the HA setup, then I
can see it is no use to you. However my suggestion of using an external
SSD drive is.

I didn't want your help and your 'help'
was no help ... yet you arrogantly continue to welch on your public
promise that you 'always apologise' when you were wrong. Your efforts
so far make you a lying coward?

I have apologised, even when I was right. If you stopped snipping my
apology it might assist.

Prove me wrong by apologising properly.

I apologise for never saying it was your preferred solution.

Can you accept you didn't know "that the RPi can load from SD card and
then no more writes. So no writing at all once the image is loaded onto
the card"? Is that so hard to accept you prefer not to answer and snip
the question in your reply?


Remind us, how many trillion animals did you say are slaughtered every year?

You need help.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:48:16 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

I didn't ask for your help,

I was merely correcting your assertion

And here is the left brainer arrogance again, something that then bit
you on the arse.

of "Ah, just remembered, I think
the RPi is not considered the best choice for a serious / long term
system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good for long term
writes?", when for many where your claim simply isn't true.

Of course it is you stupid thick troll, especially for the RPi3b I
happen to be currently using to host HA, assuming you aren't
continuing the disingenuous / digging / squirming that is.

We were *SPECIFICALLY* talking about running HA on a RPi(3b) and
running it (with all it's features intact) is not as well suited on
the RPi as it is on several other options and *SPECIFICALLY* because
*they* don't rely on a uSD card to host the filesystem.

If you require logging and are continuous changing the HA setup, then I
can see it is no use to you.

No, not *if*, it's the default setting / function so it would be an
*exception* not to use it like that.

I gave no indication whatsoever of not wanting any of the features
that required a persistent fs. What I sated was the FACT that
constantly writing to an SD card can / will cause it to fail at some
point and sooner than the same level of activity on more suitable
media.

Your solution was just as ineffective IRTW as your idea of campaigning
for better animal welfare whilst still artificially breeding,
unnaturally keeping, unnaturally feeding and killing them whilst still
young ... compared to not doing *any* of that in the first place.

However my suggestion of using an external
SSD drive is.

I'm not sure it is (on a PRi3b), not whilst maintaining a 'supported'
system (and irrelevant to my statement at the time in any case). If I
wanted to continue running HA on a RPi platform I'd go to a RPi4 (and
I already have a couple [1]) but if I'm committing that sort of money
I might as well go for the recommended solution of the Odroid N2+ (and
was discussing that very point with the grown-ups before you came
along).

So my statement about SD reliability and for my installation (as is)
stands and your proper / honest apology is still outstanding.

I didn't want your help and your 'help'
was no help ... yet you arrogantly continue to welch on your public
promise that you 'always apologise' when you were wrong. Your efforts
so far make you a lying coward?

I have apologised, even when I was right.

No you haven't, you have only apologised 'with reservations'. Also, if
you think you are right then you haven't learned / accepted anything
have you and WTF are you apologising for?

But hey, you weren't to know I was running a standard system, if I
*needed* the full persistence in the FS as standard ... but you could
have asked ... and *then* presented your solution ... but you didn't
did you?

snip more trolling ****e and distractions

Cheers, T i m

On 25/03/2021 16:38, Stalker T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:48:16 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

I didn't ask for your help,

I was merely correcting your assertion

And here is the left brainer arrogance again, something that then bit
you on the arse.

of "Ah, just remembered, I think
the RPi is not considered the best choice for a serious / long term
system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good for long term
writes?", when for many where your claim simply isn't true.

Of course it is you stupid thick troll, especially for the RPi3b I
happen to be currently using to host HA, assuming you aren't
continuing the disingenuous / digging / squirming that is.

We were *SPECIFICALLY* talking about running HA on a RPi(3b) and
running it (with all it's features intact) is not as well suited on
the RPi as it is on several other options and *SPECIFICALLY* because
*they* don't rely on a uSD card to host the filesystem.

If you were specifically talking about a Pi in a HA environment, then
don't make general assertions that are nonsense.

If you require logging and are continuous changing the HA setup, then I
can see it is no use to you.

No, not *if*, it's the default setting / function so it would be an
*exception* not to use it like that.

I gave no indication whatsoever of not wanting any of the features
that required a persistent fs. What I sated was the FACT that
constantly writing to an SD card can / will cause it to fail at some
point and sooner than the same level of activity on more suitable
media.

Then you didn't need to reply with "Ok, explain *exactly* what you mean
by that (knowing just how disingenuous you are on most things)" if you
really wanted to remain in the ignorant state.

You come across as a fool. Best stop replying and continuing this as
long as it takes for you to give up or I'll be calling you my stalker.

Your solution was just as ineffective IRTW as your idea of campaigning
for better animal welfare whilst still artificially breeding,
unnaturally keeping, unnaturally feeding and killing them whilst still
young ... compared to not doing *any* of that in the first place.

If you hadn't made the unqualified assertion, "Ah, just remembered, I
think the RPi is not considered the best choice for a serious / long
term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good for long term
writes?" I would have obliged to point out something you didn't know,
namely is possible to use the SD card in a read only mode.

However my suggestion of using an external
SSD drive is.

I'm not sure it is (on a PRi3b), not whilst maintaining a 'supported'
system (and irrelevant to my statement at the time in any case). If I
wanted to continue running HA on a RPi platform I'd go to a RPi4 (and
I already have a couple [1]) but if I'm committing that sort of money
I might as well go for the recommended solution of the Odroid N2+ (and
was discussing that very point with the grown-ups before you came
along).

I doubt your HA application would be limited by High Speed USB speeds,
that would be 60MB/s and most experienced users would suggest the useful
sustainable speed would still be 30MB/s.

So my statement about SD reliability and for my installation (as is)
stands and your proper / honest apology is still outstanding.

What for, for you ignorance in not knowing that it is possible to setup
the RPi in a SD card read only system?

Ok then, I apologise for your ignorance. Will that do?

I didn't want your help and your 'help'
was no help ... yet you arrogantly continue to welch on your public
promise that you 'always apologise' when you were wrong. Your efforts
so far make you a lying coward?

I have apologised, even when I was right.

No you haven't, you have only apologised 'with reservations'. Also, if
you think you are right then you haven't learned / accepted anything
have you and WTF are you apologising for?

I apologise for showing your ignorance, and showing a gap in your
extensive experience with RPis.

But hey, you weren't to know I was running a standard system, if I
*needed* the full persistence in the FS as standard ... but you could
have asked ... and *then* presented your solution ... but you didn't
did you?

It was irrelevant to know what you were running because you made the
unqualified assertion, "Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not
considered the best choice for a serious / long term system is that it
runs on an SD and that's not good for long term writes?"

Please do explain why you might need persistence beyond the initial setup.

snip more trolling ****e and distractions

LOL you really hate being reminded of the erroneous facts you so wish
were true. Do remind us, how many trillion animals did you say are
slaughtered every year?

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:21:03 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****e

If you were specifically talking about a Pi in a HA environment,

snip loads more

Whilst we (the adults, very much) were, it also covers any role where
the RPi or *anything* *NEEDS* to constantly write to an SD card and
that they don't last forever (fact) or as long as more suitable media.
That *IS* a weakness of any device that relies on that sort of media
for a live filesystem where regular / constant writes are necessary.
Therefore, avoiding writing to the SD card is no solution to
*anything*.

So, again, either apologise for your ignorant and un requested
assumptions or let everone see you are both a liar and a cowardly
troll.

Cheers, T i m

On 25/03/2021 19:36, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:21:03 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****e

If you were specifically talking about a Pi in a HA environment,

snip loads more

And a request to explain why you might need persistence beyond the
initial setup.

I know you won't be able to.

Whilst we (the adults, very much) were, it also covers any role where
the RPi or *anything* *NEEDS* to constantly write to an SD card and
that they don't last forever (fact) or as long as more suitable media.

Agreed, but not all application need to be able to write to the SD card
and can work again happily after reboot.

That *IS* a weakness of any device that relies on that sort of media
for a live filesystem where regular / constant writes are necessary.

But as I showed you, writing to SD card is optional. A file system can
be local and volatile, lost on reboot.

Therefore, avoiding writing to the SD card is no solution to
*anything*.

Then you have no imagination and talking through your arse. I was
associated with an application that specifically required a long life
and a volatile file system worked well. On reboot it simply ran the
application and it worked.

You seem closed to ideas that don't fit your own limited experience.

So, again, either apologise for your ignorant and un requested
assumptions or let everone see you are both a liar and a cowardly
troll.

I didn't make any assumption of your needs, my purpose was solely to
correct your erroneous claim, namely, "Ah, just remembered, I think the
RPi is not considered the best choice for a serious / long term system
is that it runs on an SD and that's not good for long term writes?"

Clearly given your reply, "Ok, explain *exactly* what you mean by that
(knowing just how disingenuous you are on most things)" you weren't
aware of this feature.

LOL you really hate being reminded of the erroneous facts you so wish
were true. Do remind us, how many trillion animals did you say are
slaughtered every year?

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 20:21:29 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

On 25/03/2021 19:36, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:21:03 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****e

If you were specifically talking about a Pi in a HA environment,

snip loads more

And a request to explain why you might need persistence beyond the
initial setup.

snip troll ****e

Bwhahaha .... you wouldn't listen / understand / concede if I did so
why would I bother to do that?

But here is one of hundreds of answers to another of your accusations
that you could have easily looked up yourself Google boy.

https://sentientmedia.org/how-many-a...ood-every-day/

Except you aren't actually interested in my answer to that are you, it
will be just another thing for you to try to argue about.

Now, where is that apology you promised everyone you would give?

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 10:47:09 UTC, T i m wrote:

I guess few domestic users would know anything about ip address
reservations and of those who do, even fewer might want to stipulate
the ip address.

I would expect most users that understand about static IP address reservations would also want to stipulate what those addresses are.

} {
ip = 192.168.0.172;
name = "MacMini";
mac = 00:16:CB:A2:XX:XX;
medium = medium_ethernet;
} {

It might be stored elsewhere so will keep looking.


I've got a Fritzbox 7530 and, if fixing IP addresses from the DHCP pool, the following lines are added to the relevent LAN device entry:

manual_ip = yes;
staticlease = yes;

That's not to say yours will support these directives though. What's the actual model you've got?

Mathew

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:28:03 -0700 (PDT), Mathew Newton
wrote:

On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 10:47:09 UTC, T i m wrote:

I guess few domestic users would know anything about ip address
reservations and of those who do, even fewer might want to stipulate
the ip address.

I would expect most users that understand about static IP address reservations would also want to stipulate what those addresses are.

Agreed and why I think it strange that on most domestic routers you
can't?

} {
ip = 192.168.0.172;
name = "MacMini";
mac = 00:16:CB:A2:XX:XX;
medium = medium_ethernet;
} {

It might be stored elsewhere so will keep looking.


I've got a Fritzbox 7530 and, if fixing IP addresses from the DHCP pool, the following lines are added to the relevent LAN device entry:

manual_ip = yes;
staticlease = yes;

Ah, ok, I'll check again and look for that.

That's not to say yours will support these directives though.

Quite as it is fairly old now.

What's the actual model you've got?

According to it's admin page: 'FRITZ!Box Fon WLAN 7140 Annex A'

Cheers, T i m

p.s. You may be interested to know I followed up on your idea of
converting an existing trailing lead and making it smart (as with the
Shelly unit) and I opened up the TCM 219870 Master socket thing (it
was my Dads, it went wrong (turning on the master no longer activated
the 6 slaves) and I'd previously converted it to a plain 7 ways multi
socket) and am already in the process of turning it into a 4 way
switched, one permanently live (all via the main on/ off switch) as by
removing the last two sockets and their bus bars I can easily get the
4 way relay board and an ESP32 in the end. A bit of 3D printing to
hold the relay board and ESP32 to the now unused socket mounting posts
and I should be good to go. ;-)

Luckily the bus bars are real brass strip and screw onto the back of
each of the sockets so I can either cut the strip up, drill holes for
the wire and solder, or remove the strip completely and use crimp /
ring terminals. It really was an ideal solution. ;-)

On 25/03/2021 21:25, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 20:21:29 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

On 25/03/2021 19:36, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:21:03 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip troll ****e

If you were specifically talking about a Pi in a HA environment,

snip loads more

And a request to explain why you might need persistence beyond the
initial setup.

snip troll ****e

Bwhahaha .... you wouldn't listen / understand / concede if I did so
why would I bother to do that?

I'm all ears, I may or may not understand. But if you don't know why
then please simply admit it and put everyone out of their misery rather
than this endless procrastination.

But here is one of hundreds of answers to another of your accusations
that you could have easily looked up yourself Google boy.

https://sentientmedia.org/how-many-a...ood-every-day/

So not trillions then, like you claimed. Are you going to apologise for
your mistake?

Except you aren't actually interested in my answer to that are you, it
will be just another thing for you to try to argue about.

No argument. I actually think we should and try to cut down on our meat
consumption, but when you come over the way you do as a fanatic, you
become an ugly advert for veganism. And a great incentive to eat meat.

Now, where is that apology you promised everyone you would give?

I thought I have apologised profusely enough.

What have I done now?

On 25/03/2021 22:28, Mathew Newton wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 10:47:09 UTC, T i m wrote:

I guess few domestic users would know anything about ip address
reservations and of those who do, even fewer might want to stipulate
the ip address.

I would expect most users that understand about static IP address reservations would also want to stipulate what those addresses are.

} {
ip = 192.168.0.172;
name = "MacMini";
mac = 00:16:CB:A2:XX:XX;
medium = medium_ethernet;
} {

It might be stored elsewhere so will keep looking.


I've got a Fritzbox 7530 and, if fixing IP addresses from the DHCP pool, the following lines are added to the relevent LAN device entry:

manual_ip = yes;
staticlease = yes;

That's not to say yours will support these directives though. What's the actual model you've got?

Mathew

The routers I have used in the past 5 years or so have allowed port
forwarding for a computer name, rather than IP address.

Of course the IP address can still be static, but it does mean you can
still use DHCP for all devices and port forwarding still operates on the
chosen device without concerns over its local IP address.

On Thursday, 25 March 2021 at 23:07:37 UTC, T i m wrote:

I would expect most users that understand about static IP address reservations would also want to stipulate what those addresses are.
Agreed and why I think it strange that on most domestic routers you can't?

I'm sure all the ones I've had can, but granted that's probably not all that many!

According to it's admin page: 'FRITZ!Box Fon WLAN 7140 Annex A'

Having skimmed the user guide (https://en.avm.de/fileadmin/user_upl..._WLAN_7140.pdf) it does sound like the 7140 might well indeed be one you can't, although it comes close to sounding like you can in a few places but that'll likely be down to the German translation! Certainly worth checking that the 'Expert Mode' is enabled in the System menu in case that reveals more options.

p.s. You may be interested to know I followed up on your idea of
converting an existing trailing lead and making it smart (as with the
Shelly unit) and I opened up the TCM 219870 Master socket thing (it
was my Dads, it went wrong (turning on the master no longer activated
the 6 slaves) and I'd previously converted it to a plain 7 ways multi
socket) and am already in the process of turning it into a 4 way
switched, one permanently live (all via the main on/ off switch) as by
removing the last two sockets and their bus bars I can easily get the
4 way relay board and an ESP32 in the end. A bit of 3D printing to
hold the relay board and ESP32 to the now unused socket mounting posts
and I should be good to go. ;-)

Luckily the bus bars are real brass strip and screw onto the back of
each of the sockets so I can either cut the strip up, drill holes for
the wire and solder, or remove the strip completely and use crimp /
ring terminals. It really was an ideal solution. ;-)

Excellent! I suppose success (or at least ease) really does depend on the particular construction type of the socket.

On Thursday, 25 March 2021 at 23:29:03 UTC, Fredxx wrote:

The routers I have used in the past 5 years or so have allowed port
forwarding for a computer name, rather than IP address.

Of course the IP address can still be static, but it does mean you can
still use DHCP for all devices and port forwarding still operates on the
chosen device without concerns over its local IP address.

Yes, that's true.

Personally I prefer to manually configure any devices that deserve a fixed address with a static address outside the DHCP pool as I find it makes things far easier to manage and just seems altogether more robust and predictable.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Mathew Newton
wrote:

On Thursday, 25 March 2021 at 23:07:37 UTC, T i m wrote:

I would expect most users that understand about static IP address reservations would also want to stipulate what those addresses are.
Agreed and why I think it strange that on most domestic routers you can't?

I'm sure all the ones I've had can, but granted that's probably not all that many!

According to it's admin page: 'FRITZ!Box Fon WLAN 7140 Annex A'

Having skimmed the user guide (https://en.avm.de/fileadmin/user_upl..._WLAN_7140.pdf) it does sound like the 7140 might well indeed be one you can't, although it comes close to sounding like you can in a few places but that'll likely be down to the German translation! Certainly worth checking that the 'Expert Mode' is enabled in the System menu in case that reveals more options.

Thanks for checking that Mathew. Checks, yes, Expert mode is on (I
normally run stuff as-is first and then turn on the expert / advanced
modes to do the advanced stuff once I've explored the basics).

snip

Luckily the bus bars are real brass strip and screw onto the back of
each of the sockets so I can either cut the strip up, drill holes for
the wire and solder, or remove the strip completely and use crimp /
ring terminals. It really was an ideal solution. ;-)

Excellent!

Yeah, I think it's going to work out well (physically) and only cost
about 8 quid to do something that would have cost at least 24 (and
that I may not be able to repair if it ever went wrong).

I suppose success (or at least ease) really does depend on the particular construction type of the socket.

Absolutely and I was lucky with this one because it was quite 'boxy'
as it used to contain the electronics for the 1 x Master 6 x slaves
setup that I previously stripped out when they failed for Dad.

It was also very handy that the layout (Mains cable entry, master
socket and main switch, then the 6 slaves) means I can remove the last
two sockets (and you can, they aren't molded in, another bonus) and
have the relay board (mains relays facing the last socket), then the
logic side of the relay board and then the ESP32 that won't be near
any mains voltages.

If I wire the master socket to be straight switched live, that can
take a wall wart 5V supply to run the ESP32 and logic side of the
relays and then the remaining 4 sockets have their lives split and fed
from each of the 4 relays. It's just how best to take the single live
that currently goes the bus bar and split it into 4 to feed the 4 x
relay commons?

Wego connector (1 in 4 out) or solder up a 1 to 4 splitter and
heatshrink (in 1.5mm flex probably, if Wegos can take stranded)?

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:35:00 -0700 (PDT), Mathew Newton
wrote:

snip

Personally I prefer to manually configure any devices that deserve a fixed address with a static address outside the DHCP pool as I find it makes things far easier to manage and just seems altogether more robust and predictable.

Same here ... and I also try to group stuff together, like servers,
NAS's, RPi's printers and still leave a reasonable DHCP scope for all
the dynamic stuff.

An advantage of DHCP though is that you can use it as another support
aid to prove connectivity, no IP address, it's not seeing the router /
DHCP server for some reason.

And that's another 'issue' with my old Fritzbox. It doesn't seem to
release the DLCH pool leases properly and so I will something have to
go in and clean any currently unused addresses from the list to make
way (and have wasted quite a bit of time trying to diagnose why some
(often headless / new-to-me) device isn't doing what it should.

I think I looked into getting a later Fritzbox after you mentioned
yours last time as mine has been so reliable but not sure if I want to
retain the Fon feature for my 2 x VOIP lines. I think the idea was
they are better managed by the router as it can deal with the QoS
better there?

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 23:22:51 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

And a request to explain why you might need persistence beyond the
initial setup.

snip troll ****e

Bwhahaha .... you wouldn't listen / understand / concede if I did so
why would I bother to do that?

I'm all ears,

Makes a change from being all **** I guess. ;-)

I may or may not understand.

No, even you should be able to understand (and I'm not sure why you
haven't got it yet tbh)?

Basically it's a Home Automation system running on a Raspberry Pi
where 'logging' of events is very much part of the requirement for
many. You can see the long term history of any sensors you have,
switches you control or activity in or around the home from PIR's etc.
To have any of that the *default* setting is logging on.

But if you don't know why
then please simply admit it

See how much of a **** you look again, given how 'simple' the *need*
for persistence in the FS is the default / normal option?

and put everyone out of their misery rather
than this endless procrastination.

Again, it's really interesting when trying to see things though your
eyes. When you really don't have a true grasp of what's going on with
other people, what they might actually know or think. Your questions,
actions, assumptions and responses are often very naive, childlike in
fact.

But here is one of hundreds of answers to another of your accusations
that you could have easily looked up yourself Google boy.

https://sentientmedia.org/how-many-a...ood-every-day/

So not trillions then, like you claimed.

Erm, I'm not sure any issues you have with reading, comprehension or
attention didn't get you as far as the second paragraph but I see it
says:

"Anywhere between 37 and 120 billion fish are killed on commercial
farms each year, with *another trillion* fish caught and killed in the
wild."

Are you going to apologise for
your mistake?

See, unlike you and your very black and white insistence that running
HA non persistent would be a viable solution for my HA installation
that *demands* persistence, the 'spirit' of the number of animals
being slaughtered by humans every day being 900 Billion or 1 or 2
Trillion is really irrelevant, especially if you are one of the
innocent creatures included in that count.

You were trying to *tell* me what I should do.

I was *informing* you what sort of number of animals are killed every
year by humans, a figure I had no personal way of verifying so quoted
as a general number taken from various sources.

I don't suppose you can see the difference between those two things
eh?

Except you aren't actually interested in my answer to that are you, it
will be just another thing for you to try to argue about.

No argument.

You are funny.

I actually think we should and try to cut down on our meat
consumption,

You would only be going along with the vast majority of expert advice
if you did.

but when you come over the way you do as a fanatic,

Again, some people who had brains wired differently to yours might see
what you call 'fanatic' as being 'passionate' for the many many
(there, if I don't put a number in there you won't be able to try to
distract the point with more strawmen) innocent and sentient animals
who are subjected to unnecessary (because we don't *need* to exploit,
and kill, in many cases) treatment.

you
become an ugly advert for veganism.

Only because you personally can't 1) understand my passion and 2)
won't be 'told' that you can't eat meat or cause all sorts of animal
suffering with animal based products that we don't eat.

And a great incentive to eat meat.

Only to a child having a tantrum.

Now, where is that apology you promised everyone you would give?

I thought I have apologised profusely enough.

Of course you did, because (again) your stubborn arrogance that won't
allow you to see or accept that your solution was completely and
utterly irrelevant for the typical use of HA on a RPI, and that was
because you *say* you *assumed* I was talking about RPi's in other
roles when it was *perfectly clear to everyone else* that I wasn't.

What have I done now?

Nothing it seems as I'm still waiting for your straight, honest and
unconditional apology for all the crap you have given me and accused
me of re my statement that an issue with running RPi's (as HA hosts,
as that was clearly the topic) long term can occur because of the
reliability of uSD cards, something that wouldn't be an issue (for the
same ease of use, fully supported, energy consumed, price and
performance) if run on an Odroid or even second user NUC.

I was right, you were wrong (for so many reasons) and you promised all
of us you 'would apologise' if you got something wrong.

And that's it. You won't get banned from Usenet or fined, you just
have to do what *you* volunteered to everyone or you are no better
than all those you accuse of abusing others?

Cheers, T i m

On 26/03/2021 14:04, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 23:22:51 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

And a request to explain why you might need persistence beyond the
initial setup.

snip troll ****e

Bwhahaha .... you wouldn't listen / understand / concede if I did so
why would I bother to do that?

I'm all ears,

Makes a change from being all **** I guess. ;-)

I may or may not understand.

No, even you should be able to understand (and I'm not sure why you
haven't got it yet tbh)?

Basically it's a Home Automation system running on a Raspberry Pi
where 'logging' of events is very much part of the requirement for
many. You can see the long term history of any sensors you have,
switches you control or activity in or around the home from PIR's etc.
To have any of that the *default* setting is logging on.

How important are these logs? Is there a need to know which piece of kit
was on or off? Some might say that is intrusive.

But if you don't know why
then please simply admit it

See how much of a **** you look again, given how 'simple' the *need*
for persistence in the FS is the default / normal option?

Sorry if I'm a **** who thinks looking at logs is intrusive. Just
because the logs wouldn't survive a power cycle only mean that minimal
logs are actually lost. You could always periodically back them up to a
NAS server, for that case when the SD card goes down too.

and put everyone out of their misery rather
than this endless procrastination.

Again, it's really interesting when trying to see things though your
eyes. When you really don't have a true grasp of what's going on with
other people, what they might actually know or think. Your questions,
actions, assumptions and responses are often very naive, childlike in
fact.

I presume this is because of your initial reluctance to answer.

But here is one of hundreds of answers to another of your accusations
that you could have easily looked up yourself Google boy.

https://sentientmedia.org/how-many-a...ood-every-day/

So not trillions then, like you claimed.

Erm, I'm not sure any issues you have with reading, comprehension or
attention didn't get you as far as the second paragraph but I see it
says:

"Anywhere between 37 and 120 billion fish are killed on commercial
farms each year, with *another trillion* fish caught and killed in the
wild."

I guess I don't attribute fish as being animals in the same way many
vegetarians are in reality pescatarians. You are correct of course fish
are technically animals, but then so are amoebas.
Are you going to apologise for
your mistake?

See, unlike you and your very black and white insistence that running
HA non persistent would be a viable solution for my HA installation
that *demands* persistence, the 'spirit' of the number of animals
being slaughtered by humans every day being 900 Billion or 1 or 2
Trillion is really irrelevant, especially if you are one of the
innocent creatures included in that count.

You were trying to *tell* me what I should do.

No I was correcting you. And I apologised for correcting your general
statement which was "Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not
considered the best choice for a serious / long term system is that it
runs on an SD and that's not good for long term writes?". I wasn't
telling you to do anything, just point out the incorrect statement.

I was *informing* you what sort of number of animals are killed every
year by humans, a figure I had no personal way of verifying so quoted
as a general number taken from various sources.

I don't suppose you can see the difference between those two things
eh?

Does that mean when you says "trillions" and in reality it is 1 or less,
made predominantly from fishing, does that mean you feel you shouldn't
apologies for a misleading claim?

Except you aren't actually interested in my answer to that are you, it
will be just another thing for you to try to argue about.

No argument.

You are funny.

Thank you, I do try and brighten up people's lives.

I actually think we should and try to cut down on our meat
consumption,

You would only be going along with the vast majority of expert advice
if you did.

Quite.

but when you come over the way you do as a fanatic,

Again, some people who had brains wired differently to yours might see
what you call 'fanatic' as being 'passionate' for the many many
(there, if I don't put a number in there you won't be able to try to
distract the point with more strawmen) innocent and sentient animals
who are subjected to unnecessary (because we don't *need* to exploit,
and kill, in many cases) treatment.

Is that an admission yours is wired differently up as a fanatic?

you
become an ugly advert for veganism.

Only because you personally can't 1) understand my passion and 2)
won't be 'told' that you can't eat meat or cause all sorts of animal
suffering with animal based products that we don't eat.

And a great incentive to eat meat.

Only to a child having a tantrum.

It could be that your not a good example as a vegan.

Now, where is that apology you promised everyone you would give?

I thought I have apologised profusely enough.

Of course you did, because (again) your stubborn arrogance that won't
allow you to see or accept that your solution was completely and
utterly irrelevant for the typical use of HA on a RPI, and that was
because you *say* you *assumed* I was talking about RPi's in other
roles when it was *perfectly clear to everyone else* that I wasn't.

What arrogance, I was merely correcting your statement?

What have I done now?

Nothing it seems as I'm still waiting for your straight, honest and
unconditional apology for all the crap you have given me and accused
me of re my statement that an issue with running RPi's (as HA hosts,
as that was clearly the topic) long term can occur because of the
reliability of uSD cards, something that wouldn't be an issue (for the
same ease of use, fully supported, energy consumed, price and
performance) if run on an Odroid or even second user NUC.

I have accused you of:
1) Being a fanatic
2) Hypocrite in terms of incarcerating your pets.
3) Feeding a dog meat free products
4) Keeping a dog in captivity, subjecting it to full bladders and bowels.
5) Likely deficient in B12
6) Being an unworthy example of a vegan
7) Abusing others who disagree with, questioning their brain.
8) Accused you of not caring for animal welfare, as indicated by the
snipping of petitions and not wanting to improve slaughter procedures.
9) You believe in a deity like father christmas and avoid criticising
religious practises employed in cruel animal slaughter.

To the best of my knowledge, all the above are true, if there is
anything else I should add to the list, or anything further I has posted
I should apologise for, please do let me know.

I was right, you were wrong (for so many reasons) and you promised all
of us you 'would apologise' if you got something wrong.

I do apologise for questioning your brain wholeness, after you accused
others of being brain one-sided. There, a real apology for something I
am not proud of. But it rally only counts if you apologise for the abuse
that instigated my comment, otherwise the comment is justified and
apology taken back.

What else have I done wrong?

And that's it. You won't get banned from Usenet or fined, you just
have to do what *you* volunteered to everyone or you are no better
than all those you accuse of abusing others?

Did you sign this petition?

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliame...t-of-fois-gras

Now, are you going to apologise for:
1) Saying Trillions of animals are slaughtered every year (please note
plural of trillion)
2) Abusing others, calling them brain sided
3) Your ignorance in not knowing that a RPi can be run without and
further writes to the SD card.

There are may other reasons but this will do. However, I'm not holding
my breath.

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:56:32 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:
snip

Basically it's a Home Automation system running on a Raspberry Pi
where 'logging' of events is very much part of the requirement for
many. You can see the long term history of any sensors you have,
switches you control or activity in or around the home from PIR's etc.
To have any of that the *default* setting is logging on.

How important are these logs?

To those who consider them important, very?

Is there a need to know which piece of kit
was on or off?

For those interested in such things, yes. For some it's actually the
whole point of running HA over a straight timer etc.

I have a dehumidifier on a smart / energy monitoring socket and that
allows me to do several things.

Externally switch the unit based on the output of a remote humidity
sensor and time.

To be able to 'see' how often when it was being called for (to
dehumidify the room) it was on and dehumidifying (~175W), the fan on
but not dehumidifying but defrosting itself (45W), or on but not
running because the 'Tank full' interlock was active (1W). I can then
create a rule / automation that sends me a notification when the tank
is full and by determining how often it's on but defrosting itself, if
I need to raise the temperature in that room (that I can also do
remotely / interactively / automagically).

'You can manage what you can measure'.

Some might say that is intrusive.

Only those not installing that system for themselves.

But if you don't know why
then please simply admit it

See how much of a **** you look again, given how 'simple' the *need*
for persistence in the FS is the default / normal option?

Sorry if I'm a **** who thinks looking at logs is intrusive.

Good.

Just
because the logs wouldn't survive a power cycle only mean that minimal
logs are actually lost.

By minimal you mean say 2 years activity across potentially 10's of
devices?

You could always periodically back them up to a
NAS server, for that case when the SD card goes down too.

You could (and should, if the history is valuable / relevant etc) but
not the point.

and put everyone out of their misery rather
than this endless procrastination.

Again, it's really interesting when trying to see things though your
eyes. When you really don't have a true grasp of what's going on with
other people, what they might actually know or think. Your questions,
actions, assumptions and responses are often very naive, childlike in
fact.

I presume this is because of your initial reluctance to answer.

Yes. It *obviously* wasn't because I didn't know why I wanted what
I've already got and how it got there. So my 'reluctance' to answer
was because you historically appear to take any RW notice and just
continue with the same old.

But here is one of hundreds of answers to another of your accusations
that you could have easily looked up yourself Google boy.

https://sentientmedia.org/how-many-a...ood-every-day/

So not trillions then, like you claimed.

Erm, I'm not sure any issues you have with reading, comprehension or
attention didn't get you as far as the second paragraph but I see it
says:

"Anywhere between 37 and 120 billion fish are killed on commercial
farms each year, with *another trillion* fish caught and killed in the
wild."

I guess I don't attribute fish as being animals in the same way many
vegetarians are in reality pescatarians.

Maybe not, but again can you see that would be your fault not mine?

Whatever you try to put forward as an excuse for *ignoring* one of the
creates treated so badly they are typically measured by weight not
number but they still very much count individually in the whole gambit
of the way we currently treat these individual and often sentient
creatures, merely as commodities.

You are correct of course fish
are technically animals,

Why thank you?

snip

You were trying to *tell* me what I should do.

No I was correcting you.

OK, let's break this down in the actual steps and not get bogged down
with the detail (that you are still using as a strawman).

1) I made an in-context mid-discussion factual statement about uSD
cards being a weakness in RPi's used to run HA. That statement was
100% factually and technically true and was further signposted by
comparisons with officially supported (and even better recommended)
alternatives that *didn't* run the FS on a uSD card.

2) You jumped in and tried to inform me that I could increase the life
span by modifying how the RPi worked and removing all writes to the
uSD card, after installation.

3) I knew at that point that wouldn't be a viable solution for me (or
most people for that matter) running HA on a RPi.

4) You then continued to not only insist, but accuse me that I didn't
know about anything, completely missing the bigger picture.

5) You then continued to dig yourself further and further into the
hole till you realised where you made the first mistake and therefore
where you went wrong.

6) What you still haven't done (and now unlikely to do, because you
are a left brainer etc) is unconditionally apologise for all the abuse
and name calling over something *you* got wrong because *you* made
assumptions about the whole setup.

And I apologised for correcting your general
statement which was "Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not
considered the best choice for a serious / long term system is that it
runs on an SD and that's not good for long term writes?". I wasn't
telling you to do anything, just point out the incorrect statement.

No you didn't apologise like that, you *always* included the 'you
preferred usage' thing when in fact it's the *default* usage. You
can't set the rules for how other people choose to use / do things.

I was *informing* you what sort of number of animals are killed every
year by humans, a figure I had no personal way of verifying so quoted
as a general number taken from various sources.

I don't suppose you can see the difference between those two things
eh?

Does that mean when you says "trillions" and in reality it is 1 or less,

No, because I have seen several mentions of numbers over 2 trillion,
including all the animals used for non consumption.

made predominantly from fishing, does that mean you feel you shouldn't
apologies for a misleading claim?

Of course not because the 'spirit' of my 'claim' was 'the massively
large number', even in comparison with the global population of
humans. Once again you *chose* (consciously or otherwise) to focus on
the exact number, not the enormity of the number of animals that die
in general.

Except you aren't actually interested in my answer to that are you, it
will be just another thing for you to try to argue about.

No argument.

You are funny.

Thank you, I do try and brighten up people's lives.

Well, I would say 'brighten' all the time. ;-)

I actually think we should and try to cut down on our meat
consumption,

You would only be going along with the vast majority of expert advice
if you did.

Quite.

but when you come over the way you do as a fanatic,

Again, some people who had brains wired differently to yours might see
what you call 'fanatic' as being 'passionate' for the many many
(there, if I don't put a number in there you won't be able to try to
distract the point with more strawmen) innocent and sentient animals
who are subjected to unnecessary (because we don't *need* to exploit,
and kill, in many cases) treatment.

Is that an admission yours is wired differently up as a fanatic?

If I was admitting I was a fanatic, yes, but I'm not am I? I don't go
to rally's, I don't protest outside abattoirs or fast food shops. I'm
just someone who has had their eyes opened to the horrors of what
often goes on behind closed doors and tries to get people to question
the same things themselves. If I was talking to a group of school
children on veganism I would use completely different techniques than
I would talking to a bunch of often old, often indoctrinated, 'I can
never change' stick-in-the-muds here. ;-)

you
become an ugly advert for veganism.

Only because you personally can't 1) understand my passion and 2)
won't be 'told' that you can't eat meat or cause all sorts of animal
suffering with animal based products that we don't eat.

And a great incentive to eat meat.

Only to a child having a tantrum.

It could be that your not a good example as a vegan.

No, I'm a good example of a vegan (in how I do my best not to cause
any suffering, exploitation or death of animals) but I would never
suggest I was the best advocate for veganism, especially given the
audience here or the audience of long term / indoctrinated /
conditioned meat eaters in general.Try to suggest anyone stops doing
anything they like personally for the benefit of others and you are
likely to get pushback. But then you don't know how many people have
been reading and thinking and who may even agree with me, but just
don't say it here or can't quite yet get round to making that final
step themselves?

Do I talk about veganism here because I want to make friends or think
I'm going to get an easy ride? Of course not, but I'm not the one who
is important here, it's the innocent animals that are killed by people
who in many cases, couldn't do so themselves and if you even made them
observe the process in person, would likely never eat meat again.

Now, where is that apology you promised everyone you would give?

I thought I have apologised profusely enough.

Of course you did, because (again) your stubborn arrogance that won't
allow you to see or accept that your solution was completely and
utterly irrelevant for the typical use of HA on a RPI, and that was
because you *say* you *assumed* I was talking about RPi's in other
roles when it was *perfectly clear to everyone else* that I wasn't.

What arrogance, I was merely correcting your statement?

Your continued insistence that you were right and I was wrong for 1)
ignoring your good advice in general and 2) not running my RPi HA the
way you suggested?

And the mere fact that you (may?) *still* think you were 'correcting
my statement' says it all. ;-(

What have I done now?

Nothing it seems as I'm still waiting for your straight, honest and
unconditional apology for all the crap you have given me and accused
me of re my statement that an issue with running RPi's (as HA hosts,
as that was clearly the topic) long term can occur because of the
reliability of uSD cards, something that wouldn't be an issue (for the
same ease of use, fully supported, energy consumed, price and
performance) if run on an Odroid or even second user NUC.

I have accused you of:
1) Being a fanatic

Which I'm not, so that was a false accusation that ITRW you would
apologise for.

2) Hypocrite in terms of incarcerating your pets.

BS when seen in the order of the bigger picture of the numbers of
animals we kill and eat, just for the pleasure they give via our
(conditioned) taste buds versus the giving a stray / rescued animal a
long, healthy and happy *FULL* life.

Should we keep pets in general? No, of course not, although the last
on the list to go would be dogs because they are now very much woven
in with humans and *CAN* live long and healthy lives on a well
balanced vegan diet (unlike cats etc), so wouldn't be part of the
overall animal consumption issue.

3) Feeding a dog meat free products

Which I've never done, so completely made up by you (and yet another
apology).

4) Keeping a dog in captivity,

What, like 'living with us' is in captivity to you is it? I open the
front door, the dog may wander out, have a sniff and would come
straight back in again.

subjecting it to full bladders and bowels.

When is that then? If he asks to go out, we let him out so are
subjecting him to nothing.

5) Likely deficient in B12

Why would that be then?

6) Being an unworthy example of a vegan

Already covered as BS.

7) Abusing others who disagree with, questioning their brain.

Again, more lies. What you personally would have seen is me *reacting*
to the examples of the lies and false accusations you have so kindly
laid out here for us all to see. There are many people here (even)
with whom I've had a perfectly reasonable conversation on the subject.

8) Accused you of not caring for animal welfare, as indicated by the
snipping of petitions and not wanting to improve slaughter procedures.

Because it's like you saying you are now only raping your wife once a
month, rather than one a week and expecting praise? If we don't need
to cause animal suffering, exploitation and death, why would we if we
say we accept we should care for and respect animals?

Every vegan living a long and healthy life is proof that we do not
*need* to treat animals as commodities, assuming our morals and ethics
didn't tell us that in the first place.

9) You believe in a deity like father christmas and avoid criticising
religious practises employed in cruel animal slaughter.

BS. *ANY* unnecessary animal slaughter is wrong, no mater how it's
done or for the reasons it's done. There is a massive difference
between putting an animal out of it's misery humanely, and what you
support.

To the best of my knowledge, all the above are true,

And that's the rub ... 'to the best of your knowledge when I have
*REPEATEDLY* stated that most of it was lies and false / bogus
accusations. But you don't listen. You don't listen because 1) You
can't take any counter argument that isn't given to you by someone you
trust. That is an issue with left brainers. 2) You don't want to
accept any truths if it means you personally may have to change your
life=style or may miss out on something you enjoy, no matter how much
pain and suffering it causes others.

if there is
anything else I should add to the list, or anything further I has posted
I should apologise for, please do let me know.

Oh, the list is very long my friend but all part of the core issue,
you, your LBD and the consequences of that re all things.

I was right, you were wrong (for so many reasons) and you promised all
of us you 'would apologise' if you got something wrong.

I do apologise for questioning your brain wholeness, after you accused
others of being brain one-sided.

No need to do that as it's just an opinion. You stating you had an
obligation to correct my mistake re reliability and uSD cards on RPi
when running HA was not a mistake by me and you were 100% wrong.
That's what I feel I deserve an apology for, out of principal.

There, a real apology for something I
am not proud of.

Thanks but really not necessary.

But it rally only counts if you apologise for the abuse
that instigated my comment, otherwise the comment is justified and
apology taken back.

See, you can't even go though with that can you. ;-(

What else have I done wrong?

Too long to list here. mate. ;-)

And that's it. You won't get banned from Usenet or fined, you just
have to do what *you* volunteered to everyone or you are no better
than all those you accuse of abusing others?

Did you sign this petition?

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliame...t-of-fois-gras

Nope. All of that would go away if we just stopped treating animals
like food machines or commodities and started respecting and
protecting them for the individuals they are.


Now, are you going to apologise for:
1) Saying Trillions of animals are slaughtered every year (please note
plural of trillion)

Nope (reasons already given)

2) Abusing others, calling them brain sided

Nope, because we are all on different parts of the BD scale so where
you happen to fit is just my opinion.

3) Your ignorance in not knowing that a RPi can be run without and
further writes to the SD card.

Oh, I don't ****ing believe it, after all this! Of course I knew about
that as I've been using the same concepts for *years* with all the
live instances of Linux I've been running.

Next you will try to get me to apologise for any other thing that
*you* think I don't know about something, even when it is of no
interest to me what so ever.

There are may other reasons but this will do. However, I'm not holding
my breath.

No, please don't, because just when I thought we might actually be
getting somewhere, you demonstrate that you are actually as I feared
and are ill. ;-(

For that reason, unless you can *actually / really* see what you have
said and done to be mostly figments of your imagination (the voices in
your head telling you to say this stuff), I'm going to have to go back
to just ignoring you, for your own sake.

Cheers, T i m

On 26/03/2021 16:42, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:56:32 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:
snip

Basically it's a Home Automation system running on a Raspberry Pi
where 'logging' of events is very much part of the requirement for
many. You can see the long term history of any sensors you have,
switches you control or activity in or around the home from PIR's etc.
To have any of that the *default* setting is logging on.

How important are these logs?

To those who consider them important, very?
Why do you consider them important? What do you do with them? Do you
think are maybe attaching too much importance to these?

Is there a need to know which piece of kit
was on or off?

For those interested in such things, yes. For some it's actually the
whole point of running HA over a straight timer etc.

I have a dehumidifier on a smart / energy monitoring socket and that
allows me to do several things.

Is the RPi monitoring the smart socket?

Externally switch the unit based on the output of a remote humidity
sensor and time.

To be able to 'see' how often when it was being called for (to
dehumidify the room) it was on and dehumidifying (~175W), the fan on
but not dehumidifying but defrosting itself (45W), or on but not
running because the 'Tank full' interlock was active (1W). I can then
create a rule / automation that sends me a notification when the tank
is full and by determining how often it's on but defrosting itself, if
I need to raise the temperature in that room (that I can also do
remotely / interactively / automagically).

'You can manage what you can measure'.

Some might say that is intrusive.

Only those not installing that system for themselves.

Ok

But if you don't know why
then please simply admit it

See how much of a **** you look again, given how 'simple' the *need*
for persistence in the FS is the default / normal option?

Sorry if I'm a **** who thinks looking at logs is intrusive.

Good.

Just
because the logs wouldn't survive a power cycle only mean that minimal
logs are actually lost.

By minimal you mean say 2 years activity across potentially 10's of
devices?

That's my point. It would be straightforward to copy the logs onto your
NAS server, so any outage would be minimal between backups.

You could always periodically back them up to a
NAS server, for that case when the SD card goes down too.

You could (and should, if the history is valuable / relevant etc) but
not the point.

So you don't take backups? What's the point in storing 2 years of
activity on an SD card when you know it will fail every ~18 months?

and put everyone out of their misery rather
than this endless procrastination.

Again, it's really interesting when trying to see things though your
eyes. When you really don't have a true grasp of what's going on with
other people, what they might actually know or think. Your questions,
actions, assumptions and responses are often very naive, childlike in
fact.

I presume this is because of your initial reluctance to answer.

Yes. It *obviously* wasn't because I didn't know why I wanted what
I've already got and how it got there. So my 'reluctance' to answer
was because you historically appear to take any RW notice and just
continue with the same old.

RW?

But here is one of hundreds of answers to another of your accusations
that you could have easily looked up yourself Google boy.

https://sentientmedia.org/how-many-a...ood-every-day/

So not trillions then, like you claimed.

Erm, I'm not sure any issues you have with reading, comprehension or
attention didn't get you as far as the second paragraph but I see it
says:

"Anywhere between 37 and 120 billion fish are killed on commercial
farms each year, with *another trillion* fish caught and killed in the
wild."

I guess I don't attribute fish as being animals in the same way many
vegetarians are in reality pescatarians.

Maybe not, but again can you see that would be your fault not mine?

Whatever you try to put forward as an excuse for *ignoring* one of the
creates treated so badly they are typically measured by weight not
number but they still very much count individually in the whole gambit
of the way we currently treat these individual and often sentient
creatures, merely as commodities.

You are correct of course fish
are technically animals,

Why thank you?

snip

Why snip the part amoebas are animals too. Is that fact really too hard
to swallow?

You were trying to *tell* me what I should do.

No I was correcting you.

OK, let's break this down in the actual steps and not get bogged down
with the detail (that you are still using as a strawman).

1) I made an in-context mid-discussion factual statement about uSD
cards being a weakness in RPi's used to run HA. That statement was
100% factually and technically true and was further signposted by
comparisons with officially supported (and even better recommended)
alternatives that *didn't* run the FS on a uSD card.

2) You jumped in and tried to inform me that I could increase the life
span by modifying how the RPi worked and removing all writes to the
uSD card, after installation.

3) I knew at that point that wouldn't be a viable solution for me (or
most people for that matter) running HA on a RPi.

We need to establish that you weren't aware of that facility.

4) You then continued to not only insist, but accuse me that I didn't
know about anything, completely missing the bigger picture.

I know you weren't aware of the facility, there was no accusation.

5) You then continued to dig yourself further and further into the
hole till you realised where you made the first mistake and therefore
where you went wrong.

Yes, I was wrong to point out, "You do realise that the RPi can load
from SD card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once the
image is loaded onto the card" so and improve, however reluctantly, your
knowledge of the RPi.

6) What you still haven't done (and now unlikely to do, because you
are a left brainer etc) is unconditionally apologise for all the abuse
and name calling over something *you* got wrong because *you* made
assumptions about the whole setup.

Ah, abuse, the signs of another lost argument.

And I apologised for correcting your general
statement which was "Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not
considered the best choice for a serious / long term system is that it
runs on an SD and that's not good for long term writes?". I wasn't
telling you to do anything, just point out the incorrect statement.

No you didn't apologise like that, you *always* included the 'you
preferred usage' thing when in fact it's the *default* usage. You
can't set the rules for how other people choose to use / do things.

I don't understand, all I did was point out the fallacy of, "Ah, just
remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice for a
serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good
for long term writes?"

I was *informing* you what sort of number of animals are killed every
year by humans, a figure I had no personal way of verifying so quoted
as a general number taken from various sources.

I don't suppose you can see the difference between those two things
eh?

Does that mean when you says "trillions" and in reality it is 1 or less,

No, because I have seen several mentions of numbers over 2 trillion,
including all the animals used for non consumption.

made predominantly from fishing, does that mean you feel you shouldn't
apologies for a misleading claim?

Of course not because the 'spirit' of my 'claim' was 'the massively
large number', even in comparison with the global population of
humans. Once again you *chose* (consciously or otherwise) to focus on
the exact number, not the enormity of the number of animals that die
in general.

Would you include the disinfection of amoebas from your drinking water?
Historically your posts have been about sentient animals, fish are on
the border line here, would you include prawns to be sentient? It's a
genuine question.

Except you aren't actually interested in my answer to that are you, it
will be just another thing for you to try to argue about.

No argument.

You are funny.

Thank you, I do try and brighten up people's lives.

Well, I would say 'brighten' all the time. ;-)

I actually think we should and try to cut down on our meat
consumption,

You would only be going along with the vast majority of expert advice
if you did.

Quite.

but when you come over the way you do as a fanatic,

Again, some people who had brains wired differently to yours might see
what you call 'fanatic' as being 'passionate' for the many many
(there, if I don't put a number in there you won't be able to try to
distract the point with more strawmen) innocent and sentient animals
who are subjected to unnecessary (because we don't *need* to exploit,
and kill, in many cases) treatment.

Is that an admission yours is wired differently up as a fanatic?

If I was admitting I was a fanatic, yes, but I'm not am I?

You fit the description perfectly, "a person filled with excessive and
single-minded zeal". If the cap fits.............

I don't go
to rally's, I don't protest outside abattoirs or fast food shops.

But you don't support campaigns to improve animal welfare either. The
only obvious motive is a jealousy of meat eaters, that we're allowed to
eat meat. We don't have to consume synthetic Turkies to please our loved
ones.

I'm
just someone who has had their eyes opened to the horrors of what
often goes on behind closed doors and tries to get people to question
the same things themselves.

It is pointless unless you actually want to improve slaughterhouse
conditions or animal welfare. Every question posed to you on this is
snipped and you refuse to answer.

If I was talking to a group of school
children on veganism I would use completely different techniques than
I would talking to a bunch of often old, often indoctrinated, 'I can
never change' stick-in-the-muds here. ;-)

Perhaps that is where you are going wrong here too?

you
become an ugly advert for veganism.

Only because you personally can't 1) understand my passion and 2)
won't be 'told' that you can't eat meat or cause all sorts of animal
suffering with animal based products that we don't eat.

And a great incentive to eat meat.

Only to a child having a tantrum.

It could be that your not a good example as a vegan.

No, I'm a good example of a vegan (in how I do my best not to cause
any suffering, exploitation or death of animals)

That's a lie. You have never endorsed improvement in animal welfare, the
slaughter or animals, or advocated the banning of domestic pets.

but I would never
suggest I was the best advocate for veganism, especially given the
audience here or the audience of long term / indoctrinated /
conditioned meat eaters in general.

Good, in fact I would say your approach is entirely counterproductive.

If the eating of meat is banned in say 100 years, it won't be down to
the likes of you and your fanatical approach on the subject.

Try to suggest anyone stops doing
anything they like personally for the benefit of others and you are
likely to get pushback.

That depends on the approach. If you get push-back then you've lost much
of the argument.

But then you don't know how many people have
been reading and thinking and who may even agree with me, but just
don't say it here or can't quite yet get round to making that final
step themselves?

I agree with the principle, I just don't want to end up like you an
embittered fanatic, desperate to eat real meat and envious of those who
do. You are free to disagree with those qualities, but that is how you
come over.

Do I talk about veganism here because I want to make friends or think
I'm going to get an easy ride? Of course not, but I'm not the one who
is important here, it's the innocent animals that are killed by people
who in many cases, couldn't do so themselves and if you even made them
observe the process in person, would likely never eat meat again.

The issue is I accept the slaughter of animals as part of a natural
healthy diet. Farm animals don't understand the concept of innocence.

Now, where is that apology you promised everyone you would give?

I thought I have apologised profusely enough.

Of course you did, because (again) your stubborn arrogance that won't
allow you to see or accept that your solution was completely and
utterly irrelevant for the typical use of HA on a RPI, and that was
because you *say* you *assumed* I was talking about RPi's in other
roles when it was *perfectly clear to everyone else* that I wasn't.

What arrogance, I was merely correcting your statement?

Your continued insistence that you were right and I was wrong for 1)
ignoring your good advice in general and 2) not running my RPi HA the
way you suggested?

I never said you were wrong, I just said, "You do realise that the RPi
can load from SD card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once
the image is loaded onto the card." Assuming you were ignorant on the
subject, and not 'wrong'.

And the mere fact that you (may?) *still* think you were 'correcting
my statement' says it all. ;-(

I was, and I did. Get over it.

What have I done now?

Nothing it seems as I'm still waiting for your straight, honest and
unconditional apology for all the crap you have given me and accused
me of re my statement that an issue with running RPi's (as HA hosts,
as that was clearly the topic) long term can occur because of the
reliability of uSD cards, something that wouldn't be an issue (for the
same ease of use, fully supported, energy consumed, price and
performance) if run on an Odroid or even second user NUC.

I have accused you of:
1) Being a fanatic

Which I'm not, so that was a false accusation that ITRW you would
apologise for.

Ask others her. Make a post asking if you are a fanatic in respect of
pushing your vegan values.

2) Hypocrite in terms of incarcerating your pets.

BS when seen in the order of the bigger picture of the numbers of
animals we kill and eat, just for the pleasure they give via our
(conditioned) taste buds versus the giving a stray / rescued animal a
long, healthy and happy *FULL* life.

Should we keep pets in general? No, of course not, although the last
on the list to go would be dogs because they are now very much woven
in with humans and *CAN* live long and healthy lives on a well
balanced vegan diet (unlike cats etc), so wouldn't be part of the
overall animal consumption issue.

I see cognitive dissonance here. If it wasn't for you , your poets
wouldn't have been subjected to genital mutilation for your pleasure.

3) Feeding a dog meat free products

Which I've never done, so completely made up by you (and yet another
apology).

You feed your dogs meat? I'm shocked. Why? Do you accept that's part of
their natural omnivorous diet?

4) Keeping a dog in captivity,

What, like 'living with us' is in captivity to you is it? I open the
front door, the dog may wander out, have a sniff and would come
straight back in again.

subjecting it to full bladders and bowels.

When is that then? If he asks to go out, we let him out so are
subjecting him to nothing.

So your dogs have never peed or **** on your carpets?

5) Likely deficient in B12

Why would that be then?

From your fanatical posts.

6) Being an unworthy example of a vegan

Already covered as BS.

7) Abusing others who disagree with, questioning their brain.

Again, more lies. What you personally would have seen is me *reacting*
to the examples of the lies and false accusations you have so kindly
laid out here for us all to see. There are many people here (even)
with whom I've had a perfectly reasonable conversation on the subject.

So you calling someone brain one-sided is not abuse? Abuse is often the
reaction of a fanatic, who can't stomach the opposing argument.

8) Accused you of not caring for animal welfare, as indicated by the
snipping of petitions and not wanting to improve slaughter procedures.

Because it's like you saying you are now only raping your wife once a
month, rather than one a week and expecting praise? If we don't need
to cause animal suffering, exploitation and death, why would we if we
say we accept we should care for and respect animals?

Every vegan living a long and healthy life is proof that we do not
*need* to treat animals as commodities, assuming our morals and ethics
didn't tell us that in the first place.

That seems to be an excuse for not caring for animal welfare. My point
stands.
9) You believe in a deity like father christmas and avoid criticising
religious practises employed in cruel animal slaughter.

BS. *ANY* unnecessary animal slaughter is wrong, no mater how it's
done or for the reasons it's done. There is a massive difference
between putting an animal out of it's misery humanely, and what you
support.

So you do believe in a mythical deity, and and avoid criticising
religious practises employed in cruel animal slaughter. Glad we cleared
that one up.

To the best of my knowledge, all the above are true,

And that's the rub ... 'to the best of your knowledge when I have
*REPEATEDLY* stated that most of it was lies and false / bogus
accusations. But you don't listen.

I never said they were lies. You have been given the opportunity to say
they aren't true and you generally endorsed the points I made.

You don't listen because 1) You
can't take any counter argument that isn't given to you by someone you
trust. That is an issue with left brainers. 2) You don't want to
accept any truths if it means you personally may have to change your
life=style or may miss out on something you enjoy, no matter how much
pain and suffering it causes others.

Again you resort to abuse to explain your fanatical ideals. I wouldn't
want to change my lifestyle if it meant I became another T i m. He
doesn't come across as a particularly pleasant person, abusing anyone
who disagrees with him.

if there is
anything else I should add to the list, or anything further I has posted
I should apologise for, please do let me know.

Oh, the list is very long my friend but all part of the core issue,
you, your LBD and the consequences of that re all things.

LBD? Please pick one:
LDB Low Level Debugging
LDB Lean Data Block
LDB Legislative Data Base
LDB Load Data Base
LDB Logic Data Base
LDB License Data Base
LDB Lock Data Base
LDB Lan Data Base
LDB Location Data Base
LDB Longitudinal Data Base
LDB Legacy Data Base
LDB Large Data Base
LDB Low Level Data Base
LDB Lordsburg (Amtrak station code; Lordsburg, NM)
LDB Lietuvos Darbo Birža
LDB Little Drummer Boy (software to create drumloops)
LDB Left Descending Bank (river location)
LDB Genetic Location Database
LDB Lim Domain-Binding
LDB Londrina, Parana, Brazil - Londrina (Airport Code)
LDB Launch Data Bus (US NASA)
LDB Long Deep Breaths
LDB Leader Dogs for the Blind
LDB Landport Drapery Bazaar (fabric shop; Portsmouth, NH)
LDB Leader Development Branch (US Army)
LDB Local Data Base
LDB Loop Detection Buffer (Sonet)
LDB Light Distribution Box (Cisco)
LDB Low-Drag Bomb
LDB Loading Database
LDB Laboratoire de Dosimétrie Biologique (French: Biological Dosimetry
Laboratory)
LDB Lifetime Distribution Based
LDB Leverandørdatabank

I was right, you were wrong (for so many reasons) and you promised all
of us you 'would apologise' if you got something wrong.

I do apologise for questioning your brain wholeness, after you accused
others of being brain one-sided.

No need to do that as it's just an opinion.

No, its a form of abuse.

You stating you had an
obligation to correct my mistake re reliability and uSD cards on RPi
when running HA was not a mistake by me and you were 100% wrong.
That's what I feel I deserve an apology for, out of principal.

I'm very sorry if I said, "You do realise that the RPi can load from SD
card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once the image is
loaded onto the card."
There, a real apology for something I
am not proud of.

Thanks but really not necessary.

But it rally only counts if you apologise for the abuse
that instigated my comment, otherwise the comment is justified and
apology taken back.

What abuse? Did I call you right brained or something?

See, you can't even go though with that can you. ;-(

What else have I done wrong?

Too long to list here. mate. ;-)

AKA You can't think of any.

And that's it. You won't get banned from Usenet or fined, you just
have to do what *you* volunteered to everyone or you are no better
than all those you accuse of abusing others?

Did you sign this petition?

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliame...t-of-fois-gras

Nope. All of that would go away if we just stopped treating animals
like food machines or commodities and started respecting and
protecting them for the individuals they are.

So you DGAS about animal welfare. That is what we knew all along. You
simple crave meat and jealous our loved ones allow us to eat meat.

Now, are you going to apologise for:
1) Saying Trillions of animals are slaughtered every year (please note
plural of trillion)

Nope (reasons already given)

2) Abusing others, calling them brain sided

Nope, because we are all on different parts of the BD scale so where
you happen to fit is just my opinion.

3) Your ignorance in not knowing that a RPi can be run without and
further writes to the SD card.

Oh, I don't ****ing believe it, after all this! Of course I knew about
that as I've been using the same concepts for *years* with all the
live instances of Linux I've been running.

Who said, "Ok, explain *exactly* what you mean by that (knowing just how
disingenuous you are on most things)" out of ignorance?

Next you will try to get me to apologise for any other thing that
*you* think I don't know about something, even when it is of no
interest to me what so ever.

I knew you wouldn't have balls to apologise.

There are may other reasons but this will do. However, I'm not holding
my breath.

No, please don't, because just when I thought we might actually be
getting somewhere, you demonstrate that you are actually as I feared
and are ill. ;-(

I'm not the one deficient in B12. I got a nice fix yesterday evening. It
was scrumptious.

For that reason, unless you can *actually / really* see what you have
said and done to be mostly figments of your imagination (the voices in
your head telling you to say this stuff), I'm going to have to go back
to just ignoring you, for your own sake.

I take it you hear voices, please tell us what it's like. I'd love to
know what I'm missing.

I suggested long ago, simply killfile me and those you call trolls so we
can correct some of the crap you post without abuse being returned when
you're proven wrong.

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 17:42:12 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

On 26/03/2021 16:42, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:56:32 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:
snip

Basically it's a Home Automation system running on a Raspberry Pi
where 'logging' of events is very much part of the requirement for
many. You can see the long term history of any sensors you have,
switches you control or activity in or around the home from PIR's etc.
To have any of that the *default* setting is logging on.

How important are these logs?

To those who consider them important, very?

Why do you consider them important?

Because they were a core part of my running HA.

What do you do with them?

Learn what's going on and adjust other things based on that
information.

Do you
think are maybe attaching too much importance to these?

Do you think you have any right to question what I consider
'important'.

Is there a need to know which piece of kit
was on or off?

For those interested in such things, yes. For some it's actually the
whole point of running HA over a straight timer etc.

I have a dehumidifier on a smart / energy monitoring socket and that
allows me to do several things.

Is the RPi monitoring the smart socket?

No, Home Assistant is monitoring the smart socket and that's running
on the RPi. Why don't you do yourself a favour and check out some Home
Assistant videos on Youtube?

Externally switch the unit based on the output of a remote humidity
sensor and time.

To be able to 'see' how often when it was being called for (to
dehumidify the room) it was on and dehumidifying (~175W), the fan on
but not dehumidifying but defrosting itself (45W), or on but not
running because the 'Tank full' interlock was active (1W). I can then
create a rule / automation that sends me a notification when the tank
is full and by determining how often it's on but defrosting itself, if
I need to raise the temperature in that room (that I can also do
remotely / interactively / automagically).

'You can manage what you can measure'.

Some might say that is intrusive.

Only those not installing that system for themselves.

Ok

But if you don't know why
then please simply admit it

See how much of a **** you look again, given how 'simple' the *need*
for persistence in the FS is the default / normal option?

Sorry if I'm a **** who thinks looking at logs is intrusive.

Good.

Just
because the logs wouldn't survive a power cycle only mean that minimal
logs are actually lost.

By minimal you mean say 2 years activity across potentially 10's of
devices?

That's my point. It would be straightforward to copy the logs onto your
NAS server, so any outage would be minimal between backups.

*I* (potentially) could because I happen to have a NAS but why should
I when I can keep them integral with the host system (where they can
be easily accessed and displayed graphically)?

You could always periodically back them up to a
NAS server, for that case when the SD card goes down too.

You could (and should, if the history is valuable / relevant etc) but
not the point.

So you don't take backups?

I take 'snapshots' and back them up manually.

What's the point in storing 2 years of
activity on an SD card when you know it will fail every ~18 months?

Because I don't intend to run HA on the RPi for that long because of
the weakness of running on an uSD card. I already have a development
system running on a fanless Shuttle PC that I was planning to migrate
everything onto, if I don't invest in an Odroid N2+ (which is highly
likely as the Shuttle would make a better TVHeadend host).

and put everyone out of their misery rather
than this endless procrastination.

Again, it's really interesting when trying to see things though your
eyes. When you really don't have a true grasp of what's going on with
other people, what they might actually know or think. Your questions,
actions, assumptions and responses are often very naive, childlike in
fact.

I presume this is because of your initial reluctance to answer.

Yes. It *obviously* wasn't because I didn't know why I wanted what
I've already got and how it got there. So my 'reluctance' to answer
was because you historically appear to take any RW notice and just
continue with the same old.

RW?

Real World.

But here is one of hundreds of answers to another of your accusations
that you could have easily looked up yourself Google boy.

https://sentientmedia.org/how-many-a...ood-every-day/

So not trillions then, like you claimed.

Erm, I'm not sure any issues you have with reading, comprehension or
attention didn't get you as far as the second paragraph but I see it
says:

"Anywhere between 37 and 120 billion fish are killed on commercial
farms each year, with *another trillion* fish caught and killed in the
wild."

I guess I don't attribute fish as being animals in the same way many
vegetarians are in reality pescatarians.

Maybe not, but again can you see that would be your fault not mine?

Whatever you try to put forward as an excuse for *ignoring* one of the
creates treated so badly they are typically measured by weight not
number but they still very much count individually in the whole gambit
of the way we currently treat these individual and often sentient
creatures, merely as commodities.

You are correct of course fish
are technically animals,

Why thank you?

snip

Why snip the part amoebas are animals too. Is that fact really too hard
to swallow?

Because the importance of our treatment of them also involves their
level of sentience.

You were trying to *tell* me what I should do.

No I was correcting you.

OK, let's break this down in the actual steps and not get bogged down
with the detail (that you are still using as a strawman).

1) I made an in-context mid-discussion factual statement about uSD
cards being a weakness in RPi's used to run HA. That statement was
100% factually and technically true and was further signposted by
comparisons with officially supported (and even better recommended)
alternatives that *didn't* run the FS on a uSD card.

2) You jumped in and tried to inform me that I could increase the life
span by modifying how the RPi worked and removing all writes to the
uSD card, after installation.

3) I knew at that point that wouldn't be a viable solution for me (or
most people for that matter) running HA on a RPi.

We need to establish that you weren't aware of that facility.

No we don't ... as why would it be relevant to anything of anything
that was of no practical use to me or the system?

Know about it or not, it's use to me was worse than that of a
chocolate teapot and the value of your help was the exact same.

Now, had you come up with something that I'd never heard of and that
*was* some actual use to me or my HA system, that might be different,
had I bothered to read it etc.

Before you try to roll out any more strawmen, this whole issue
revolves around the FACT that you offered a solution that was of no
use to me whatsoever. You did so because you were ignorant of HA and
how it might typically be used. I'm not requesting you apologise for
trying to help (although I question why you would, considering) but
that you insisted that it was a workable solution for me (it certainly
isn't) or (as it happens), the vast majority of HA users, running
their systems on a RPi'. One of the most common 'solutions' to the SD
wear issue is to simply re-image the system onto a new uSD card every
so often.

4) You then continued to not only insist, but accuse me that I didn't
know about anything, completely missing the bigger picture.

I know you weren't aware of the facility, there was no accusation.

See above.

5) You then continued to dig yourself further and further into the
hole till you realised where you made the first mistake and therefore
where you went wrong.

Yes, I was wrong to point out, "You do realise that the RPi can load
from SD card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once the
image is loaded onto the card"

No, you weren't wrong to 'point it out', but more your 'pointing it
out' was pointless for the std usage (and mine as it happens) of HA on
a RPi. You were very wrong to 1) insist I used that solution and 2)
accuse me of knot being aware of the use of ram to simulate more
persistent storage. I have been using that concept on computers for
years.

so and improve, however reluctantly, your
knowledge of the RPi.

Again, you are assuming I have any interest in learning about things
that are unlikely to be of any use to me (specifically on any given
device).

6) What you still haven't done (and now unlikely to do, because you
are a left brainer etc) is unconditionally apologise for all the abuse
and name calling over something *you* got wrong because *you* made
assumptions about the whole setup.

Ah, abuse, the signs of another lost argument.

So you keep saying, yet it doesn't seem to stop you doing it yourself?
Or is it that you can't see when your doing it and so that doesn't
count?

And I apologised for correcting your general
statement which was "Ah, just remembered, I think the RPi is not
considered the best choice for a serious / long term system is that it
runs on an SD and that's not good for long term writes?". I wasn't
telling you to do anything, just point out the incorrect statement.

No you didn't apologise like that, you *always* included the 'you
preferred usage' thing when in fact it's the *default* usage. You
can't set the rules for how other people choose to use / do things.

I don't understand, all I did was point out the fallacy of, "Ah, just
remembered, I think the RPi is not considered the best choice for a
serious / long term system is that it runs on an SD and that's not good
for long term writes?"

Yes, you keep repeating that in the hope that if you do it enough it
will suddenly gain a greater value but it won't.

For running HA on a RPi, with all the stock facilities, you HAVE TO
HAVE persistence and so your suggestion that anything else was even
acceptable is the fallacy.

*Can* HA be run on a RPi without persistence? Yes, but with many may
shortcomings and certainly none that would be acceptable to me.

I was *informing* you what sort of number of animals are killed every
year by humans, a figure I had no personal way of verifying so quoted
as a general number taken from various sources.

I don't suppose you can see the difference between those two things
eh?

Does that mean when you says "trillions" and in reality it is 1 or less,

No, because I have seen several mentions of numbers over 2 trillion,
including all the animals used for non consumption.

made predominantly from fishing, does that mean you feel you shouldn't
apologies for a misleading claim?

Of course not because the 'spirit' of my 'claim' was 'the massively
large number', even in comparison with the global population of
humans. Once again you *chose* (consciously or otherwise) to focus on
the exact number, not the enormity of the number of animals that die
in general.

Would you include the disinfection of amoebas from your drinking water?

Nope.

Historically your posts have been about sentient animals, fish are on
the border line here, would you include prawns to be sentient? It's a
genuine question.

Do they make decisions re what they do based on their surroundings? If
they do then they probably have a level of sentience. But in any case,
if we were judging the right to life of all animals, they would
probably be well below cows and pigs etc.

Except you aren't actually interested in my answer to that are you, it
will be just another thing for you to try to argue about.

No argument.

You are funny.

Thank you, I do try and brighten up people's lives.

Well, I would say 'brighten' all the time. ;-)

I actually think we should and try to cut down on our meat
consumption,

You would only be going along with the vast majority of expert advice
if you did.

Quite.

but when you come over the way you do as a fanatic,

Again, some people who had brains wired differently to yours might see
what you call 'fanatic' as being 'passionate' for the many many
(there, if I don't put a number in there you won't be able to try to
distract the point with more strawmen) innocent and sentient animals
who are subjected to unnecessary (because we don't *need* to exploit,
and kill, in many cases) treatment.

Is that an admission yours is wired differently up as a fanatic?

If I was admitting I was a fanatic, yes, but I'm not am I?

You fit the description perfectly, "a person filled with excessive and
single-minded zeal".

What, is that on just one subject? Pleased don't get confused even
between someone who is fanatical about things and a fanatic in the
general understanding of the word.

If the cap fits.............

I'm also very much into Home Assistant, noisy manhole covers,
motorbikes and boating but because none of them question your
lifestyle, you probably don't care about them.

You would equally call me a fanatic if I protested outside butchers,
or betting shops, or organised a troll hunt.

What if I was as passionate about stopping inequality to women or
against racism, would that be equally 'bad' in your view?

I don't go
to rally's, I don't protest outside abattoirs or fast food shops.

But you don't support campaigns to improve animal welfare either.

I do, but at a much more practical level than you.

The
only obvious motive is a jealousy of meat eaters, that we're allowed to
eat meat.

Ah, now we see you darker side taking control again where you make up
lies ad then believe them yourself? Is that what the voices in you
hear are telling you is the case? No, If I wanted to go and buy / eat
meat, *NO ONE* would / could stop me. I am not eating meat (eggs,
drinking milk) because that's what I have chosen to do.

We don't have to consume synthetic Turkies to please our loved
ones.

That's good, as nor do I.

I'm
just someone who has had their eyes opened to the horrors of what
often goes on behind closed doors and tries to get people to question
the same things themselves.

It is pointless unless you actually want to improve slaughterhouse
conditions or animal welfare.

I want to 'improve' both by removing the whole idea of seeing sentient
animals as if they are only food, *especially* we have the choice not
to.

Every question posed to you on this is
snipped and you refuse to answer.

I have answered it over and over and answered it for the final time
above.

Ok, which do you think is better, only raping your wife once a month
rather than once a week or not raping her at all? Answer that if you
dare.

If I was talking to a group of school
children on veganism I would use completely different techniques than
I would talking to a bunch of often old, often indoctrinated, 'I can
never change' stick-in-the-muds here. ;-)

Perhaps that is where you are going wrong here too?

Hey, you probably think you are an expert on that as well so you tell
me?

you
become an ugly advert for veganism.

Only because you personally can't 1) understand my passion and 2)
won't be 'told' that you can't eat meat or cause all sorts of animal
suffering with animal based products that we don't eat.

And a great incentive to eat meat.

Only to a child having a tantrum.

It could be that your not a good example as a vegan.

No, I'm a good example of a vegan (in how I do my best not to cause
any suffering, exploitation or death of animals)

That's a lie.

Nope, that's a fact mate.

You have never endorsed improvement in animal welfare,

Apart from it being the entire remit of vegans you mean, by not
breeding, exploiting and killing them when we don't need to? I really
don't know how you can offer more animal welfare than that?

the
slaughter or animals,

See above. That's EXACTLY what we advocate against.

or advocated the banning of domestic pets.

The first thing we deal with are the trillions of animals that die for
human pleasure, then we work our way don't to those we love, cherish
and protect and give the best and longest lives possible. You know,
not cutting their throats when they are very young, just because we
like how their flesh tastes (once we have rendered it into a format we
can handle and digest etc).

but I would never
suggest I was the best advocate for veganism, especially given the
audience here or the audience of long term / indoctrinated /
conditioned meat eaters in general.

Good, in fact I would say your approach is entirely counterproductive.

And you are entitled to your opinion. Now if you can do better (vegan
advocacy), please lead the way!

If the eating of meat is banned in say 100 years, it won't be down to
the likes of you and your fanatical approach on the subject.

I think you will find it will be down to all those who advocate in
that direction, *even* if in my case it's because I have reduced the
demand.

Try to suggest anyone stops doing
anything they like personally for the benefit of others and you are
likely to get pushback.

That depends on the approach.

Nope, it's perfectly natural for people to do that, given the option.
You can even insist they do something by law and it may not make them
do it (like wearing a seatbelt).

If you get push-back then you've lost much
of the argument.

Nope, you are often just seeing a natural initial response and then
the message will, or will or will not sink in over time. Eg, if
someone is a psychopath the chances are you will never be able to
explain to them why their actions aren't acceptable.

But then you don't know how many people have
been reading and thinking and who may even agree with me, but just
don't say it here or can't quite yet get round to making that final
step themselves?

I agree with the principle, I just don't want to end up like you an
embittered fanatic,

Or someone with a soul, with compassion, benevolence and empathy that
only want to cause animal less suffering, exploitation and death?

Outside of here, my normal level of vegan advocacy is what I do ITRW
practically.

desperate to eat real meat

The thought actually disgusts me, eating the flesh taken from a
sentient creature that didn't give it up freely and was never ours to
take in the first place.

(Even) You are likely to be equally disgusted by other peoples
treatment of animals, just your boundaries are only such that they
don't impact your personal pleasure.

and envious of those who
do.

Grow up FFS.

You are free to disagree with those qualities, but that is how you
come over.

Nope, it's how I come over to a childish troll that doesn't seem to
have a RW grasp of other humans.

Do I talk about veganism here because I want to make friends or think
I'm going to get an easy ride? Of course not, but I'm not the one who
is important here, it's the innocent animals that are killed by people
who in many cases, couldn't do so themselves and if you even made them
observe the process in person, would likely never eat meat again.

The issue is I accept the slaughter of animals as part of a natural
healthy diet.

But the way most livestock are bred, kept, fed and die is anything but
'natural'. If you want to carry on like some Neanderthal in 2021 I
guess that's your call (for now).

Farm animals don't understand the concept of innocence.

All animals value life and try to protect theirs (and often their
family / group) to the end.

Now, where is that apology you promised everyone you would give?

I thought I have apologised profusely enough.

Of course you did, because (again) your stubborn arrogance that won't
allow you to see or accept that your solution was completely and
utterly irrelevant for the typical use of HA on a RPI, and that was
because you *say* you *assumed* I was talking about RPi's in other
roles when it was *perfectly clear to everyone else* that I wasn't.

What arrogance, I was merely correcting your statement?

Your continued insistence that you were right and I was wrong for 1)
ignoring your good advice in general and 2) not running my RPi HA the
way you suggested?

I never said you were wrong, I just said, "You do realise that the RPi
can load from SD card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once
the image is loaded onto the card." Assuming you were ignorant on the
subject, and not 'wrong'.

But why would it matter if I knew about it or not, if it was something
that was no use to me?

There are loads of things I look at, consider to be a 'good idea' and
then completely discard / disregard, simply for the effort /
complication involved.

My development HA running on the Shuttle PC also runs on Hassio
(containerisation) and so I can run TVHeadend on the same box (Ubuntu
server). However, I would like the host OS and HA to run on a SSD (and
it currently is) but I'd like the video recording storage of TVH to be
on a conventional (laptop) HDD in the same box. However, I've learned
that causes issues as it involves accessing other hardware outside the
container and that's sorta frowned upon. So, alternatively I could run
everything from the conventional drive but then I don't get the speed
of the SSD.

So, I'm probably going to end up with HA running on eMMC on an Odroid
and leave the Shuttle with the host OS (Ubuntu server) running on an
M.2 drive with the video storage on a 2TB laptop spinning drive.


And the mere fact that you (may?) *still* think you were 'correcting
my statement' says it all. ;-(

I was, and I did. Get over it.

And still you never learn. You would only be 'correcting me' if it was
within in the context under discussion and the std usage of the
system. It wasn't so you weren't. QED.

It would be like me saying I'd torn the sleeve off my jacket and your
solution being I also amputate my arm to suit.

What have I done now?

Nothing it seems as I'm still waiting for your straight, honest and
unconditional apology for all the crap you have given me and accused
me of re my statement that an issue with running RPi's (as HA hosts,
as that was clearly the topic) long term can occur because of the
reliability of uSD cards, something that wouldn't be an issue (for the
same ease of use, fully supported, energy consumed, price and
performance) if run on an Odroid or even second user NUC.

I have accused you of:
1) Being a fanatic

Which I'm not, so that was a false accusation that ITRW you would
apologise for.

Ask others her. Make a post asking if you are a fanatic in respect of
pushing your vegan values.

And what do you think I'd get from whom? I could fill the chart in
here without asking so do you think that would prove anything?

Quote something off the net:

"I think if people replaced 'veganism' with 'kind to animals' they
would realise how they sound when they say ...

'Stop forcing kindness to animals on me'

'I could never be kind to animals, I love meat too much'.

'It's my right not to be kind to animals'.

'I'm just not ready to be kind to animals just yet - and that's ok'.

'No one else is kind to animal so why should I be?"

Now, if you think advocacy re 'being kind to animals' is bad or makes
someone a fanatic then you might need to check your moral compass.

2) Hypocrite in terms of incarcerating your pets.

BS when seen in the order of the bigger picture of the numbers of
animals we kill and eat, just for the pleasure they give via our
(conditioned) taste buds versus the giving a stray / rescued animal a
long, healthy and happy *FULL* life.

Should we keep pets in general? No, of course not, although the last
on the list to go would be dogs because they are now very much woven
in with humans and *CAN* live long and healthy lives on a well
balanced vegan diet (unlike cats etc), so wouldn't be part of the
overall animal consumption issue.

I see cognitive dissonance here.

This should be funny ... (in a sad watch the troll faceplant again
way).

If it wasn't for you , your poets
wouldn't have been subjected to genital mutilation for your pleasure.

Ok, if you really want to go there and think *ANYTHING* we have ever
done with / for our pets gets anywhere near as the disgusting /
cowardly way you treat innocent and sentient creatures for 5 mins of
taste then read on:

1) We have never 'bought' a pet from a pet shop or breeder.

2) We have only given long and happy lives to otherwise un homed /
unwanted animals and given them the best lives possible [1]

3) The rescues we get the animas from have normally neutered the
animals (under full surgery conditions and anaesthetic, not just in a
field or barn), to prevent them from:

a) medical problems in old age, something few livestock ever need to
worry about yet many still get neutered and

b) to stop them reproducing and so exasperating the problem and

c) stop people like you using them as breeding machines and exhausting
their reproductive systems till they are no 'use' and slaughtered
whilst still very young.

d) It's considered kinder than killing a perfectly healthy animal that
only exists because of man.

3) Feeding a dog meat free products

Which I've never done, so completely made up by you (and yet another
apology).

You feed your dogs meat?

Yup?

I'm shocked.

Of course you are ... considering how long you have spent lying that I
didn't?

Why?

Because we are still looking into what would constitute a 'balanced
vegan diet' for him.

Do you accept that's part of
their natural omnivorous diet?

Do I accept anything can for an omnivorous diet, of course. Are dogs
obligate carnivores like cats? No. Have the digestive systems of dogs
evolved to be able to process carbohydrates (unlike their wolf
ancestors) because of their connection with man and sharing their
scraps over thousands of years? Yes. Do you have to ensure that all
animals get the right balance of fibre, vitamins, protein and
nutrients for their species, body mass and lifestyle? Yes. Can a dog
live a long and healthy life on a well balanced vegan diet? Yes, and
many have / do.

Our (family) dog currently has about 40% top quality kibble, 40% veg
and 20% tinned meat and he eats it all up. I hadn't got some
cauliflower cooked in time for his dinner so I gave him his dinner
without. When I'd done the cauliflower he had finished his dinner but
I put the cauli in his bowl anyway, he ate it all up. And this is a
dog that sometimes won't eat his dinner if he's not particularly
hungry or thinks something else is going on.

4) Keeping a dog in captivity,

What, like 'living with us' is in captivity to you is it? I open the
front door, the dog may wander out, have a sniff and would come
straight back in again.

subjecting it to full bladders and bowels.

When is that then? If he asks to go out, we let him out so are
subjecting him to nothing.

So your dogs have never peed or **** on your carpets?

As puppies yes ... or when new rescues, frightened / nervous or unsure
of the setup, or the current one after having an anaesthetic,
sometimes ... but outside of that, no.

Again, another lie you (or that other troll Spuke, you trolls all
smell the same to me) made up is that they aren't free to go / do what
they want, they are on the lead all the time but in a typical daily 5m
walk, they are off the lead for the most of 4 miles of it? The only
time they are on the lead is when we are near the road or we see
something where it's safer (for all concerned) that they be 'under
control' (for them and us, like if they were to 'worry' livestock
etc).

5) Likely deficient in B12

Why would that be then?

From your fanatical posts.

Ah, from the posts you don't like because they make you question your
own lifestyle / morals?

6) Being an unworthy example of a vegan

Already covered as BS.

7) Abusing others who disagree with, questioning their brain.

Again, more lies. What you personally would have seen is me *reacting*
to the examples of the lies and false accusations you have so kindly
laid out here for us all to see. There are many people here (even)
with whom I've had a perfectly reasonable conversation on the subject.

So you calling someone brain one-sided is not abuse?

No, it's nothing like all the outright lies you have made up about me
for example.

Abuse is often the
reaction of a fanatic, who can't stomach the opposing argument.

Ah, yes, so I see.

8) Accused you of not caring for animal welfare, as indicated by the
snipping of petitions and not wanting to improve slaughter procedures.

Because it's like you saying you are now only raping your wife once a
month, rather than one a week and expecting praise? If we don't need
to cause animal suffering, exploitation and death, why would we if we
say we accept we should care for and respect animals?

Every vegan living a long and healthy life is proof that we do not
*need* to treat animals as commodities, assuming our morals and ethics
didn't tell us that in the first place.

That seems to be an excuse for not caring for animal welfare. My point
stands.

You wouldn't have a valid point unless someone gave it to you. ;-(

9) You believe in a deity like father christmas and avoid criticising
religious practises employed in cruel animal slaughter.

BS. *ANY* unnecessary animal slaughter is wrong, no mater how it's
done or for the reasons it's done. There is a massive difference
between putting an animal out of it's misery humanely, and what you
support.

So you do believe in a mythical deity,

I do? What is that then?

and and avoid criticising
religious practises employed in cruel animal slaughter.

In so far as there should be no slaughter in the first place. What is
so difficult for you to understand about that?

Glad we cleared
that one up.

Yeah, that would be like you only raping your wife monthly rather than
the weekly you were doing, versus me nor raping my wife ever.

Well done you!

To the best of my knowledge, all the above are true,

And that's the rub ... 'to the best of your knowledge when I have
*REPEATEDLY* stated that most of it was lies and false / bogus
accusations. But you don't listen.

I never said they were lies.

Other than by stating I was lying you mean? By stating what I was
doing when I wasn't?

You have been given the opportunity to say
they aren't true

Ah, how kind. You make up lies and 'give me the opportunity to clear
my name by countering them? Ah, guilty till I prove myself innocent
.... that seems to fit in with your morals perfectly.

and you generally endorsed the points I made.

Only in your head. ITRW it was the complete opposite of course.


You don't listen because 1) You
can't take any counter argument that isn't given to you by someone you
trust. That is an issue with left brainers. 2) You don't want to
accept any truths if it means you personally may have to change your
life=style or may miss out on something you enjoy, no matter how much
pain and suffering it causes others.

Again you resort to abuse to explain your fanatical ideals.

'Abuse' or a truth you don't like? If they are lies, what does that
feel like then?

I wouldn't
want to change my lifestyle if it meant I became another T i m.

You could only aspire to being me.

He
doesn't come across as a particularly pleasant person, abusing anyone
who disagrees with him.

And once again, compete and utter lies and BOLLOX.

There are loads of conversations on here with people I 'disagree with'
that are and remain perfectly respectful. It's only when people are
triggered that their own guilt can cause them to say stuff they
wouldn't if they weren't in an ethical turmoil (even if they didn't
realise themselves).

if there is
anything else I should add to the list, or anything further I has posted
I should apologise for, please do let me know.

Oh, the list is very long my friend but all part of the core issue,
you, your LBD and the consequences of that re all things.

LBD? Please pick one:
LDB Low Level Debugging
LDB Lean Data Block
LDB Legislative Data Base
LDB Load Data Base
LDB Logic Data Base
LDB License Data Base
LDB Lock Data Base
LDB Lan Data Base
LDB Location Data Base
LDB Longitudinal Data Base
LDB Legacy Data Base
LDB Large Data Base
LDB Low Level Data Base
LDB Lordsburg (Amtrak station code; Lordsburg, NM)
LDB Lietuvos Darbo Birža
LDB Little Drummer Boy (software to create drumloops)
LDB Left Descending Bank (river location)
LDB Genetic Location Database
LDB Lim Domain-Binding
LDB Londrina, Parana, Brazil - Londrina (Airport Code)
LDB Launch Data Bus (US NASA)
LDB Long Deep Breaths
LDB Leader Dogs for the Blind
LDB Landport Drapery Bazaar (fabric shop; Portsmouth, NH)
LDB Leader Development Branch (US Army)
LDB Local Data Base
LDB Loop Detection Buffer (Sonet)
LDB Light Distribution Box (Cisco)
LDB Low-Drag Bomb
LDB Loading Database
LDB Laboratoire de Dosimétrie Biologique (French: Biological Dosimetry
Laboratory)
LDB Lifetime Distribution Based
LDB Leverandørdatabank

I like the last one, if they are the only choices? If not, I'd go for
Left Brain Dominance.

I was right, you were wrong (for so many reasons) and you promised all
of us you 'would apologise' if you got something wrong.

I do apologise for questioning your brain wholeness, after you accused
others of being brain one-sided.

No need to do that as it's just an opinion.

No, its a form of abuse.

Tough, suck it up ... think of it and just re-balancing the
conversation from my POV.

You stating you had an
obligation to correct my mistake re reliability and uSD cards on RPi
when running HA was not a mistake by me and you were 100% wrong.
That's what I feel I deserve an apology for, out of principal.

I'm very sorry if I said, "You do realise that the RPi can load from SD
card and then no more writes. So no writing at all once the image is
loaded onto the card."

Again, It's not that statement you need to apologise for, given you
didn't have any idea of a key purpose of HA for most people (the
database / logging), it's more all the crap that came after and the
insistence that I should be aware of, and use that for my solution.

I wouldn't have even commented on your reply if it wasn't for our
history, other than a 'thanks but that wouldn't be any use to me'. It
was the arrogance of you jumping into a thread and suggesting that I
was ignorant of a feature that would be no use to me in any case and
nothing to do with the topic in question.

There, a real apology for something I
am not proud of.

Thanks but really not necessary.

But it rally only counts if you apologise for the abuse
that instigated my comment, otherwise the comment is justified and
apology taken back.

What abuse? Did I call you right brained or something?

Ah, that's the only sort of thing you think constitutes abuse,?
Muttiple posts accusing me of doing things I've never stated I've done
and knowing I wasn't going to reply to defend myself is perfectly ok
in your books? That's not harrasment for example?

See, you can't even go though with that can you. ;-(

What else have I done wrong?

Too long to list here. mate. ;-)

AKA You can't think of any.

Nope, what I said ...

And that's it. You won't get banned from Usenet or fined, you just
have to do what *you* volunteered to everyone or you are no better
than all those you accuse of abusing others?

Did you sign this petition?

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliame...t-of-fois-gras

Nope. All of that would go away if we just stopped treating animals
like food machines or commodities and started respecting and
protecting them for the individuals they are.

So you DGAS about animal welfare.

Why do you keep doing this, making yourself look a ****?

Are we really back to you raping your wife weekly not monthly as being
'better' than not raping her at all?

There is no good way to do a bad thing.

That is what we knew all along.

Who is this we you refer to? You and the voices in your head, because
in all the discussions here we veganism, you are the only one who has
ever accused me of not having animal welfare at heart?

You
simple crave meat and jealous our loved ones allow us to eat meat.

Ah, right, the voices again yes?

Now, are you going to apologise for:
1) Saying Trillions of animals are slaughtered every year (please note
plural of trillion)

Nope (reasons already given)

2) Abusing others, calling them brain sided

Nope, because we are all on different parts of the BD scale so where
you happen to fit is just my opinion.

3) Your ignorance in not knowing that a RPi can be run without and
further writes to the SD card.

Oh, I don't ****ing believe it, after all this! Of course I knew about
that as I've been using the same concepts for *years* with all the
live instances of Linux I've been running.

Who said, "Ok, explain *exactly* what you mean by that (knowing just how
disingenuous you are on most things)"

I did, for the reasons stated.

See, knowing just how desperate you are to get anything over on me, I
*know* there is no level you won't stoop if you think you will get
that, including blatant lying and accusations of things that you have
clearly made up.

But then guilt can drive people to do such things. ;-(

Next you will try to get me to apologise for any other thing that
*you* think I don't know about something, even when it is of no
interest to me what so ever.

I knew you wouldn't have balls to apologise.

Oh, the irony! Remind me how we got here again? Oh I know, you jumping
to the wrong conclusion and faceplanting.

There are may other reasons but this will do. However, I'm not holding
my breath.

No, please don't, because just when I thought we might actually be
getting somewhere, you demonstrate that you are actually as I feared
and are ill. ;-(

I'm not the one deficient in B12.

When were you last tested OOI.

I was tested quite recently and all my (our) levels were 'normal'.

Are you relying on all that 'natural' food you are eating being given
the right B12 supplements / implants in the hope you can extract if
from the flesh? Personally I'd rather cut out all that animal pain,
suffering, exploitation and death and take the B12 in all the foods
that are already supplemented (that you also eat of course)and B12
supplements directly (that anyone my age would be wise to take).

Much safer, better, kinder to animals to do it that way than hoping
you can get enough from innocent animal carcases.

I got a nice fix yesterday evening.

Ah, that also explains it. Heroin?

It
was scrumptious.

Munchies?

For that reason, unless you can *actually / really* see what you have
said and done to be mostly figments of your imagination (the voices in
your head telling you to say this stuff), I'm going to have to go back
to just ignoring you, for your own sake.

I take it you hear voices, please tell us what it's like.

Aww bless, what do they say 'imitation is the sincerest form of
flattery'.

I'd love to
know what I'm missing.

Hey, I'm sure you have more than enough with the voices you have
already!

I suggested long ago, simply killfile me and those you call trolls

What, is that going to stop you making stuff up about me?

so we
can correct some of the crap you post without abuse being returned when
you're proven wrong.

Ah yes, that's just what you would like isn't it, to be able to make
up anything behind someone's back without them having the opportunity
to have a say? That sounds like the preference of a sad, desperate
coward to me?

And hey, if all you have in your life is trying to database everything
I say in an effort to catch me out, you *really*, *REALLY* need to get
a life!

So, now you are back to showing your true colours, I'll go back to
ignoring you and you can go back to making up all sorts of lies about
me, comforted in the knowledge I won't reply to defend myself. Such is
the cowardly troll way.

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 01:46:12 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

When you stop questioning me and others eating meat,

snip the rest of the troll ****

I'll do that as soon as you realise the hypocrisy of your statement
and position. You say you are 'obliged' to defend others when they are
abuse but only I guess when those others are the ones you specifically
select, not the ones you specifically select *to* abuse, like
livestock?

Here, ****headxx, Joaquin Phoenix refers to you directly near the end
of this clip (3:35) but you really ought to listen (and consider) all
he has to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiiWdTz_MNc

Or, of your talking (and being dismissive of the sentience of) fish
....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0GajyDudao

and don't worry, you won't need you carers login to watch either and
neither will give you nightmares. (even though they should).

And this blows your fish BS out of the water (and they have now
believe octopi can dream).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut6B5PVJ3hE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpdlQae5wP8

Cheers, T i m

On 29/03/2021 12:32, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 01:46:12 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

snip

When you stop questioning me and others eating meat,

snip the rest of the troll ****

Snip the truth you don't want to hear?

I'll do that as soon as you realise the hypocrisy of your statement
and position. You say you are 'obliged' to defend others when they are
abuse but only I guess when those others are the ones you specifically
select, not the ones you specifically select *to* abuse, like
livestock?

Livestock are not a higher being with the means to to understand
concepts. I support campaigns to reduce and minimise suffering to
animals. You don't

You won't even sign a petition to stop the import of foie gras pate. So
in effect you endorse the force feeding of geese.

What sort of a man are you?

Here, ****headxx,

Once again abuse, another sign of a lost argument. In an earlier post
you denied abusing those who disagreed with you. You lied or simply
can't see calling people names is abuse. Is this how you treat your wife
or are you fearful of her?

Your issue is you're jealous our loved ones want us to have a natural,
healthy diet so we can benefit from natural vitamins and minerals only
found in meat.

I have accused you of:
1) Being a fanatic
2) Hypocrite in terms of incarcerating your pets.
3) Admitted lying about feeding a dog meat free products
4) Keeping a dog in captivity, denial of ever subjecting it to pain
through full bladders and bowels.
5) Likely deficient in B12
6) Being an unworthy example of a vegan
7) Abusing others who disagree with you, questioning their brain.
8) In denial you abuse others who disagree with you.
9) Not caring for animal welfare, as indicated by the snipping of
petitions and not wanting to improve slaughter procedures.
10) You believe in a deity like father christmas and endorse religious
practises employed in cruel animal slaughter.

To the best of my knowledge, all the above are true.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 14:02:38 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

snip more troll ****e

Livestock are not a higher being with the means to to understand
concepts.

You really are ignorant aren't you (and that's not abuse, that's the
truth!!!). Well, that or a *very* persistent troll (strange given how
much you don't want nor understand persistent file systems)?

What 'concepts' do you need them to be able to understand before *YOU*
determine if their lives are worthy?

How to build structures?
How to catch and process their food with what nature gave them?
To be able to accurately navigate around the skys, land and sea with
what nature gave them.
To nurture, protect, raise and train their young?
To use tools.
To build features like air conditioning into their homes.
To make food larders to carry them over the winter.
To communicate (often over long distances) and to build social groups.
To work out how to achieve goals and do new things.
To work together, even with a different species to obtain a mutual
benefit.
To mourn the loss of one of their own.
To protect themselves and each other from aggressors.
To create elaborate displays to attract a mate.
To repeat a sequence of numbers to a greater range and way faster than
man could ever do. To see further, see in the dark, run faster, swim
longer and deeper (and still be a mammal), fly and lift things many
more times their weight than any human can do.

To plan for the future, a future you deny them, simply because you
think you are a God and *choose* to eat their flesh and excretions and
exploit them in any way you see fit [1], simply because you choose to.
Because that's what Gods do?

And please let us know then we can decide what to do with human babies
and people with learning difficulties, most of whom can do none of the
above.

snip what is bound to be more hypocrite troll ****e unread

Cheers, T i m

[1] Except for those things where you don't see fit of course,
hypocrite that you are.

What you do with your almighty power is send pigs into a gas chamber
and watch them slowly suffocate before cutting their throats and
watching them bleed to death. Oh, no, you can't do that last bit (even
on video), you get someone else to do that for you eh.

On 29/03/2021 15:44, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 14:02:38 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

snip more troll ****e

Livestock are not a higher being with the means to to understand
concepts.

You really are ignorant aren't you (and that's not abuse, that's the
truth!!!). Well, that or a *very* persistent troll (strange given how
much you don't want nor understand persistent file systems)?

Were your dogs asked for their consent before their genitals were mutilated?

Are you too ignorant to understand the concept of consent, and how only
higher animals can comprehend consent, and what it means?

The only troll here seems to think cattle and livestock can understand
concepts like consent. He must think his mental acuity is on par with a
pig or sheep.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 17:00:26 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

On 29/03/2021 15:44, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 14:02:38 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

snip more troll ****e

Livestock are not a higher being with the means to to understand
concepts.

You really are ignorant aren't you (and that's not abuse, that's the
truth!!!). Well, that or a *very* persistent troll (strange given how
much you don't want nor understand persistent file systems)?

Were your dogs asked for their consent before their genitals were mutilated?

You really ought to change the record as this particular strawman is
getting *really* tired.

Did the livestock that only exist for your pleasure, often being
killed whilst very young give their consent or want to do any of what
you put them though (including being castrated)?

Before we take on a rescue dog (to look after for the rest of it's
natural life), they are generally neutered by the rescue. We took the
dogs on on behalf of the rescue [1] so didn't generate the demand so
therefore didn't generate the need so *we* aren't the cause of the
problem.

You on the other hand generate the demand and so create the supply and
therefore *directly and in person* cause the mutilation, suffering
and death at an early age of all these innocent animals.

Trolls in glass houses ...

snip more troll ****e

Cheers, T i m

[1] The last dog we had (a lurcher) was never ours. He remained the
property of the rescue and we could (and were) inspected (randomly) to
ensure we were still looking after the animal in conditions they
considered acceptable. The dog lived a happy and enriched life with
his new 'pack' probably 10 to 20 times longer than most of the animals
you exploit were allowed to.

When he was old and became ill it was considered the best thing to do
to euthanised him. This was done gently and quietly with a lethal
injection. He wasn't stunned by being gassed, electrocuted or bolt
gunned to the had before having his throat cut and bled to death.

Before we took that final action we contacted the rescue for their
authority. Their reply. "We know you have given that dog a long,
healthy and loved life so we entrust you to take whatever action you
feel is the most appropriate".

We are obviously distressed (just like you aren't when you meat is
slaughtered for you) and the vet said to us, 'This is the last kind
thing you can do for this animal'.

You aren't even there when the animals you exploit are slaughtered are
you ...

To try to even start to conflate what we or anyone does with 'rescued'
animals and your intestinally causing animals suffering and death is
disgusting (but perfectly predictable for a troll of course).

On 29/03/2021 18:48, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 17:00:26 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

On 29/03/2021 15:44, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 14:02:38 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

snip more troll ****e

Livestock are not a higher being with the means to to understand
concepts.

You really are ignorant aren't you (and that's not abuse, that's the
truth!!!). Well, that or a *very* persistent troll (strange given how
much you don't want nor understand persistent file systems)?

Were your dogs asked for their consent before their genitals were mutilated?

You really ought to change the record as this particular strawman is
getting *really* tired.

Good, that is how your strawman is seen with your attempts to foist your
vegan diet onto us.

Did the livestock that only exist for your pleasure, often being
killed whilst very young give their consent or want to do any of what
you put them though (including being castrated)?

You have this obsession that animals can consent. Do you get this notion
from fellow fanatics?

Before we take on a rescue dog (to look after for the rest of it's
natural life), they are generally neutered by the rescue. We took the
dogs on on behalf of the rescue [1] so didn't generate the demand so
therefore didn't generate the need so *we* aren't the cause of the
problem.

The very fact there is demand from a rescue home meant they were going
to be neutered. If I said, well the pig was already killed before I
bought the meat from the local supermarket, would that make it ok in
your eyes too?

You on the other hand generate the demand and so create the supply and
therefore *directly and in person* cause the mutilation, suffering
and death at an early age of all these innocent animals.

You dreg some fatuous ideas. I have never bought a puppy, only taken on
animals that had already been discarded from their initial owners. I
haven't owned pets for 20 years.

I have nothing against pet ownership, any more that eating meat.

Trolls in glass houses ...

snip more troll ****e

You mean bits you are unable to reply to with a coherent argument.

Cheers, T i m

[1] The last dog we had (a lurcher) was never ours. He remained the
property of the rescue and we could (and were) inspected (randomly) to
ensure we were still looking after the animal in conditions they
considered acceptable. The dog lived a happy and enriched life with
his new 'pack' probably 10 to 20 times longer than most of the animals
you exploit were allowed to.

That is a feeble excuse of ownership in all but name. It would have had
a short life in the wild too. Give a bitch will have two broods of up to
6 pups every year from age 2 onwards, what do you think the average age
attained would be in the wild.

I know, the calculation is too difficult for you.

When he was old and became ill it was considered the best thing to do
to euthanised him. This was done gently and quietly with a lethal
injection. He wasn't stunned by being gassed, electrocuted or bolt
gunned to the had before having his throat cut and bled to death.

If you don't like current methods of slaughter, do please free to
campaign for improvements. But we all know you don't want to because in
truth you don't care.

Before we took that final action we contacted the rescue for their
authority. Their reply. "We know you have given that dog a long,
healthy and loved life so we entrust you to take whatever action you
feel is the most appropriate".

So they agreed to the murder of your dog. Is this how you would normally
treat a member of your family? That is what you called your dog wasn't
it: a member of your family?

We are obviously distressed (just like you aren't when you meat is
slaughtered for you) and the vet said to us, 'This is the last kind
thing you can do for this animal'.

I would be equally distressed, you took on a dog that had its genitals
mutilated for your pleasure.

You aren't even there when the animals you exploit are slaughtered are
you ...

As long as the slaughter is quick and pain free, the animal doesn't suffer.

To try to even start to conflate what we or anyone does with 'rescued'
animals and your intestinally causing animals suffering and death is
disgusting (but perfectly predictable for a troll of course).

Is this your ways of admitting you suffer cognitive dissonance whenever
you justify the suffering you've caused your pets, by calling them
"rescue animals"?

Why not simply ban pets?

It's the same argument you use with animal welfare, rather than stopping
the suffering.