We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.
There are weather proof 13 Amp sockets within the area of this veranda.

The obvious solution seems to be IR heaters high up the wall or on the
rafters below the roof.

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look remarkably
like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in bathrooms, but I
suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat onto the body instead
of trying to warm the whole room. Just more modern technology in the heat
source.

Do these things work effectively?

The big sod off gas ones found outside pubs do seem to chuck out some
heat, but I am assuming that bottled gas is no cheaper than mains
electricity.

Free standing might make them also work in the shed but I'm not sure that
will work in practice, and permanently mounted seems a much neater
solution.

Cheers


Dave R


--
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On 3 Dec 2020 16:22:22 GMT, David wrote:

We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.

My advice would be 'don't' weg ... put a coat on as it's 'outdoors'
and you shouldn't be wasting energy trying to heat anything out there?

I mean, it's not like you *have* to go out there, unlike trying to do
some work in a cold workshop and *needing* some heat to be able to
function properly?

We were having a meal in a pub garden a while back and it was funny
watching the smokers who had come out for a fix, pressing the time
delay switches on the IR heaters under the big umbrellas but having to
do so several times before getting fed up and going back in again. ;-)

snip

Cheers, T i m

On 03/12/2020 16:22:22, David wrote:
We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.
There are weather proof 13 Amp sockets within the area of this veranda.

The obvious solution seems to be IR heaters high up the wall or on the
rafters below the roof.

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look remarkably
like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in bathrooms, but I
suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat onto the body instead
of trying to warm the whole room. Just more modern technology in the heat
source.

Do these things work effectively?

The big sod off gas ones found outside pubs do seem to chuck out some
heat, but I am assuming that bottled gas is no cheaper than mains
electricity.

Free standing might make them also work in the shed but I'm not sure that
will work in practice, and permanently mounted seems a much neater
solution.

For a patio area you can purchase natural gas versions. I read an
article that also says many freestanding ones can be jetted for NG.

I have no idea what the rules are with flexible pipes. I'm sure one can
be permanently installed too.

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 16:57:10 +0000, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 16:22:22 +0000, David wrote:

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look
remarkably like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in
bathrooms, but I suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat
onto the body instead of trying to warm the whole room. Just more
modern technology in the heat source.

I thought the idea was to heat using *radiation* as opposed to
convection and conduction. So you're not heating the air between the
heater and the person.

They're used a lot in outdoor workplaces like lorry yards and seemed to
work when I've been there.

I think that was what I said?

Heat the person not the room.

Cheers



Dave R

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On Thursday, 3 December 2020 at 16:22:28 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.
There are weather proof 13 Amp sockets within the area of this veranda.

The obvious solution seems to be IR heaters high up the wall or on the
rafters below the roof.

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look remarkably
like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in bathrooms, but I
suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat onto the body instead
of trying to warm the whole room. Just more modern technology in the heat
source.

Do these things work effectively?

The big sod off gas ones found outside pubs do seem to chuck out some
heat, but I am assuming that bottled gas is no cheaper than mains
electricity.

Free standing might make them also work in the shed but I'm not sure that
will work in practice, and permanently mounted seems a much neater
solution.

Cheers


Dave R

all those things are grossly inefficient


NT

On 03/12/2020 16:22, David wrote:
We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.
There are weather proof 13 Amp sockets within the area of this veranda.

The obvious solution seems to be IR heaters high up the wall or on the
rafters below the roof.

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look remarkably
like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in bathrooms, but I
suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat onto the body instead
of trying to warm the whole room. Just more modern technology in the heat
source.

Do these things work effectively?

The big sod off gas ones found outside pubs do seem to chuck out some
heat, but I am assuming that bottled gas is no cheaper than mains
electricity.

Free standing might make them also work in the shed but I'm not sure that
will work in practice, and permanently mounted seems a much neater
solution.

Cheers


Dave R


Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

David wrote:

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

That seems expensive, a 1200W one from Screwfix is £19.99.

--
Chris Green
·

On 03/12/2020 20:12:08, Chris Green wrote:
David wrote:

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

That seems expensive, a 1200W one from Screwfix is £19.99.

But the Screwfix one is only to IPX4

wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Next doors had a gas patio heater, after several windy nights, the
climate got its revenge.

Still, save the planet by watching titchy pictures on your phone, not HD
on your t\v, lets go back to 640x480

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55164410

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 21:26:57 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Next doors had a gas patio heater, after several windy nights, the
climate got its revenge.

;-)

Still, save the planet by watching titchy pictures on your phone, not HD
on your t\v,

If I hold my phone out in front of me, even at arms length the picture
is bigger than our 'main' TV (and it's not a big lounge). ;-)

lets go back to 640x480

For a good few years the TV in the bedroom was a very small (like 9")
Panasonic mains / 12V CRT jobby and that had a lovely picture (as it
should with all 625 lines in such a small space). ;-)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55164410

It's funny, I can easier 'forget' I'm watching an old black and white
film on a good set than deal with some juddery panning or poor lip
sync on a HD blockbuster on a bad one.

Cheers, T i m

On 03/12/2020 16:48, T i m wrote:

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.

My advice would be 'don't' weg ... put a coat on as it's 'outdoors'
and you shouldn't be wasting energy trying to heat anything out there?

Why shouldn't he if he can afford it? Why are you always trying to
reduce people's free choices?


We were having a meal in a pub garden a while back and it was funny
watching the smokers who had come out for a fix, pressing the time
delay switches on the IR heaters under the big umbrellas but having to
do so several times before getting fed up and going back in again.

Funny? Self-righteous smug git!

Bill

On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill

On 03/12/2020 21:26, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Next doors had a gas patio heater, after several windy nights, the
climate got its revenge.

Still, save the planet by watching titchy pictures on your phone, not HD
on your t\v, lets go back to 640x480

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55164410

What a load of arse

Bill

I understand there are some seats with heaters inside. These tend to be the
ones that hang from a frame and look a bit like an egg with a bit cut out
where one sits. Not sure how efficient that idea is, but I guess it keeps
your back and bum warm!

Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
news
On 3 Dec 2020 16:22:22 GMT, David wrote:

We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.

My advice would be 'don't' weg ... put a coat on as it's 'outdoors'
and you shouldn't be wasting energy trying to heat anything out there?

I mean, it's not like you *have* to go out there, unlike trying to do
some work in a cold workshop and *needing* some heat to be able to
function properly?

We were having a meal in a pub garden a while back and it was funny
watching the smokers who had come out for a fix, pressing the time
delay switches on the IR heaters under the big umbrellas but having to
do so several times before getting fed up and going back in again. ;-)

snip

Cheers, T i m

On 03/12/2020 16:48:56, T i m wrote:
On 3 Dec 2020 16:22:22 GMT, David wrote:

We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.

My advice would be 'don't' weg ... put a coat on as it's 'outdoors'
and you shouldn't be wasting energy trying to heat anything out there?

How do you the OP isn't on a green tariff?

Are you? Don't bother answering if you're not.

On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 01:42:32 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 03/12/2020 16:48, T i m wrote:

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.

My advice would be 'don't' weg ... put a coat on as it's 'outdoors'
and you shouldn't be wasting energy trying to heat anything out there?

Why shouldn't he if he can afford it?

Unfortunately the answer involves not being selfish so you wouldn't
understand it.

snip further trolling

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:58:33 +0000, wrote:

On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)

Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.

Cheers, T i m

On Friday, 4 December 2020 at 18:05:57 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:58:33 +0000, wrote:

On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)
Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.

Cheers, T i m

He is.

On 04/12/2020 18:05:55, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:58:33 +0000, wrote:

On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)

Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.

Just think of all that energy he can burn from weering renewable
clothes, like leather shoes, rather than buying plastic ones that damage
the environment.

Now remind us, how many litres of oil make 1kg of plastic?

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 11:53:40 -0800 (PST), Nick Cat
wrote:

On Friday, 4 December 2020 at 18:05:57 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:58:33 +0000, wrote:

On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)
Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.


He is.

Except, things change and then he can't. In many cases a group of
people already know that the changes are afoot and change before they
are forced to, simply because it's the *right thing* to do.

I realise '*right thing* simply isn't on the radar of a selfish
minority and they will inevitably spoil it for the majority.

I saw something on Youtube re some folk who were living in their vans
(in the USA in this case) because they had lost their jobs and so
homes. The guy in the video realised that parking up in say a shopping
Mal car park overnight might not be 'Allowed' but the small group that
were doing it kept themselves to themselves, didn't stay there all the
time and cleared up any litter, even though they themselves hadn't
made it. They also made a point of shopping in the store whose carpark
they were staying in, even though it wasn't the best / cheapest,
because it was the right thing to do.

Then more people started turning up, *didn't* clear up or keep quiet
or go somewhere else during the day so they *all* got told to leave
and don't come back.

Bill would be the one complaining that he had the money to keep slaves
or smoke over people in the pub because it was 'his right', without
considering his active inflicting smoke on non smokers was less 'fair'
than the non-smokers having the right to not have to suffer such.

Just because something is legal or 'legitimate' now doesn't mean it's
will continue (to be legal) and therefore question it's legality or
morality ever.

Cheers, T i m

On 04/12/2020 18:03, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 01:42:32 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 03/12/2020 16:48, T i m wrote:

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.

My advice would be 'don't' weg ... put a coat on as it's 'outdoors'
and you shouldn't be wasting energy trying to heat anything out there?

Why shouldn't he if he can afford it?

Unfortunately the answer involves not being selfish so you wouldn't
understand it.

Resorts to ad hominem attack because he has no argument. Typical.

Bill

On 04/12/2020 13:58, wrote:
On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)

You weren't polite because your suggestion was intrinsically rude: you
said he should change his lifestyle to suit your mindset. The only
reasonable response to stuff like that is "Bugger off!"

Bill

On 04/12/2020 18:05, T i m wrote:

Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.

That's more-or-less correct. That's how the world works. Basically, if
it's legal you're allowed to do it. Them that tries to tell you that you
can't are just poking their nose in where it isn't wanted, so they can
bugger off.

Bill

On 04/12/2020 20:52, T i m wrote:

Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.


He is.

Except, things change and then he can't. In many cases a group of
people already know that the changes are afoot

Them with crystal balls, or is it just that they build up their own
fantasy then think they have to right to make everybody else comply with
it? They can bugger off.

and change before they
are forced to, simply because it's the *right thing* to do.

Forced to? Left wing fascists then.


I realise '*right thing* simply isn't on the radar of a selfish
minority

Sensible majority

and they will inevitably spoil it for the majority.

Minority of Marxist pseudo-environmentalists


Bill would be the one complaining that he had the money to keep slaves

We all keep slaves. Where do you buy your clothes and your electronic
toys? And in the UK there's plenty on or below the minimum wage, and
that's almost slavery.

or smoke over people in the pub because it was 'his right', without
considering his active inflicting smoke on non smokers was less 'fair'
than the non-smokers having the right to not have to suffer such.

That's illegal.


Just because something is legal or 'legitimate' now doesn't mean it's
will continue (to be legal) and therefore question it's legality or
morality ever.
No but when it's legal we are allowed to do it. That's democracy,
possibly an alien concept to a Marxist.

Bill

On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 05:45:43 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/12/2020 20:52, T i m wrote:

Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.


He is.

Except, things change and then he can't. In many cases a group of
people already know that the changes are afoot

Them with crystal balls, or is it just that they build up their own
fantasy then think they have to right to make everybody else comply with
it? They can bugger off.

Except they won't will they, they can start to enjoy a pint in the pub
without having to endure the stench of all those who want to burn
leaves *indoors*, by LAW. So, it is actually the smokers who have had
to bugger off, in spite of your denial.

and change before they
are forced to, simply because it's the *right thing* to do.

Forced to?

Yup, you know how that works:
https://ibb.co/4JVGppy

Left wing fascists then.

Yup, forced to smoke outside, forced not to smoke on a train, forced
to wear a safety belt, forced to wear a crash helmet, forced to get
'Gas safe' people to work on their boiler and forced not to have
slaves, let women have the vote and not discriminate against people
.... a list of things that I'm sure spoils your fun.


I realise '*right thing* simply isn't on the radar of a selfish
minority

Sensible majority

Till it's changed, by law or social pressure and education.

and they will inevitably spoil it for the majority.

Who have been spoiling it for the majority (and themselves) but not
realised / accepted it.

Minority of Marxist pseudo-environmentalists

A rising number of enlightened people who haven't stopped evolving.
Those who don't use our Neanderthal ancestors or other animals as
benchmarks for what might be considered acceptable today.


Bill would be the one complaining that he had the money to keep slaves

We all keep slaves.

I'm sure you still do ... even if the only legal (atm) ones are the
animals the flesh you like the taste of (when there are plenty of
plant based alternatives).

Where do you buy your clothes

When I do (and it's very seldom I do and I wear them out) I buy stuff
that's Fairtrade etc.

and your electronic
toys?

Same place you do I'm guessing in most cases? Places that are
improving their human rights situation, albeit slowly.

Their human rights are bad because like you they still consider such
acceptable. Dog eat dog?

And in the UK there's plenty on or below the minimum wage, and
that's almost slavery.

Yes, but except is *isn't* slavery in the way we all accept the
definition is it. If we want to play your game, you would then have to
accept that the specific selection of animals you will kill and eat
are also enslaved ... so no problem for you with either? The
difference of course is there is little choice with where much of our
electronics is made but we do have the option to NOT support cruelty
to animals by not buying their corpses and excretions.

or smoke over people in the pub because it was 'his right', without
considering his active inflicting smoke on non smokers was less 'fair'
than the non-smokers having the right to not have to suffer such.

That's illegal.

*Now*, like your slavery and the keeping and killing of animals will
also become so, as it already is for a selection of them and for most
people of course.

https://ibb.co/rdQvftm


Just because something is legal or 'legitimate' now doesn't mean it's
will continue (to be legal) and therefore question it's legality or
morality ever.

No but when it's legal we are allowed to do it.

'Allowed to' maybe but there is no obligation for you to. You would be
in the records books for buying the last batch of slaves before the
deadline.

That's democracy,

Which has nothing to do with morals and ethics that require compassion
and empathy of course, words you wouldn't 'get' even if explained to
you. ;-(

possibly an alien concept to a Marxist.

Is it ? shrug

https://ibb.co/gy84PV5 ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 05:37:39 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/12/2020 18:05, T i m wrote:

Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.

That's more-or-less correct.

I know?

That's how the world works.

No, that's how your world works.

Basically, if
it's legal you're allowed to do it.

I never suggested otherwise, I was talking of constraints that you
couldn't even start to comprehend. ;-(

Them that tries to tell you that you
can't are just poking their nose in where it isn't wanted, so they can
bugger off.

Or trying to stand up for their rights (and often what's morally and
ethically right) until the laws catch up (and they will because of the
former).

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 05:35:19 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/12/2020 13:58, wrote:
On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)

You weren't polite because your suggestion was intrinsically rude: you
said he should change his lifestyle to suit your mindset.

The OP invited suggestion and not doing something is a valid
suggestion here.

The only
reasonable response to stuff like that is "Bugger off!"

Only to someone who doesn't have a full complement of emotions and
understanding of the bigger picture.

Have you ever heard the term 'Overconsumption' and do you have a clue
what it might mean?

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 05:32:18 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/12/2020 18:03, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 01:42:32 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 03/12/2020 16:48, T i m wrote:

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.

My advice would be 'don't' weg ... put a coat on as it's 'outdoors'
and you shouldn't be wasting energy trying to heat anything out there?

Why shouldn't he if he can afford it?

Unfortunately the answer involves not being selfish so you wouldn't
understand it.

Resorts to ad hominem attack because he has no argument. Typical.


Just because you don't understand something (and I point it out to
you), doesn't mean it's any more an 'attack' than you calling me a
Marxist or whatever?

There are loads of reasons why people shouldn't do things, even if
there are legal but like I said, you wouldn't understand or accept
them for the reasons *you* have already stated.

https://ibb.co/nk46k96

'Except yours' of course.

Cheers, T i m

On 5 Dec 2020 at 10:32:56 GMT, "T i m" wrote:

On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 05:37:39 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/12/2020 18:05, T i m wrote:

Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.

That's more-or-less correct.

I know?

That's how the world works.

No, that's how your world works.

I'm pretty sure most people would add something after 'afford it' - like 'and
it's the decent thing to do'. And leave out the 'irrespective of harm'. I have
a feeling that Bill is deploying a bit of mischief . . . E&OE etc. ;-)


--
Cheers, Rob

On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 10:55:29 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

On 5 Dec 2020 at 10:32:56 GMT, "T i m" wrote:

On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 05:37:39 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/12/2020 18:05, T i m wrote:

Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.

That's more-or-less correct.

I know?

That's how the world works.

No, that's how your world works.

I'm pretty sure most people would add something after 'afford it' - like 'and
it's the decent thing to do'.

Agreed, however, I really believe some (luckily only a minority *are*
sufficiently selfish (as deemed by 'most people') and so wouldn't.

It's why many laws have come about of course, to mange those who are
'antisocial' and can see so follow any other (non legal) societal
limits. And many don't even follow the legal limits and end up in
court / prison etc.

And leave out the 'irrespective of harm'.

You would like to think.

I have
a feeling that Bill is deploying a bit of mischief . . . E&OE etc. ;-)

That may well be the case, even if he doesn't realise it himself.

He obviously cares for his dogs so does care for some animals, he just
hasn't worked out how illogical his dealing with animals actually is
and because he's old, probably never will. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, December 3, 2020 at 4:22:28 PM UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.
There are weather proof 13 Amp sockets within the area of this veranda.

The obvious solution seems to be IR heaters high up the wall or on the
rafters below the roof.

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look remarkably
like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in bathrooms, but I
suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat onto the body instead
of trying to warm the whole room. Just more modern technology in the heat
source.

Do these things work effectively?

The big sod off gas ones found outside pubs do seem to chuck out some
heat, but I am assuming that bottled gas is no cheaper than mains
electricity.

Free standing might make them also work in the shed but I'm not sure that
will work in practice, and permanently mounted seems a much neater
solution.

Cheers


Dave R


--
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--
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus


These type of heaters are very common on the continent in pavement cafes but they remind me of an old Vauxhall car I had where the heater would roast your left foot while the right foot froze. Streuth we accepted some dire cars in days gone by

On 04/12/2020 20:52, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 11:53:40 -0800 (PST), Nick Cat
wrote:

On Friday, 4 December 2020 at 18:05:57 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:58:33 +0000, wrote:

On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)
Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.


He is.

Except, things change and then he can't. In many cases a group of
people already know that the changes are afoot and change before they
are forced to, simply because it's the *right thing* to do.

I realise '*right thing* simply isn't on the radar of a selfish
minority and they will inevitably spoil it for the majority.

How do you define the "right thing" though? More to the point, who's
agenda is being satisfied with the chosen value of "right"?

So, you decide that providing radiant warmth for those sitting outside
is morally wrong. Perhaps those that are unable to visit thier loved
ones inside due to social distancing rules, would disagree with you, and
argue that protecting their mental health is more important and hence
the right thing to do.

What about if the heat source is "carbon neutral" (if that is the reason
you object to radiant space heating)? Or is that then just a slippery
slope to BBQing some unfortunate mammal that we previously raped without
it's prior written consent?

I saw something on Youtube re some folk who were living in their vans

snip

Bill would be the one

Sorry I missed the post where Bill elected you to be his spokesman.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 19:28:04 +0000, nothanks wrote:

On 03/12/2020 16:22, David wrote:
We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.
There are weather proof 13 Amp sockets within the area of this veranda.

The obvious solution seems to be IR heaters high up the wall or on the
rafters below the roof.

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices
for things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for
1.5 kW wall mounted strips.

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look
remarkably like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in
bathrooms, but I suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat
onto the body instead of trying to warm the whole room. Just more
modern technology in the heat source.

Do these things work effectively?

The big sod off gas ones found outside pubs do seem to chuck out some
heat, but I am assuming that bottled gas is no cheaper than mains
electricity.

Free standing might make them also work in the shed but I'm not sure
that will work in practice, and permanently mounted seems a much neater
solution.

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these ridiculous
things.

For all those replying that we should wear a coat, woolly jumper, etc. as
if we haven't considered this, please assume that we have considered this
and have decided that for our requirements some additional heat is a
better option.

We also have central heating, which we use to keep the house at a
comfortable temperature for us.
We could go without heating (done that in my childhood), or turn it right
down and wear outdoor clothing indoors.
We prefer to be comfortable.

Telling us just to put a coat on is not helpful in the context of this
question.

Cheers



Dave R


--
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--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Fri, 04 Dec 2020 20:52:53 +0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 11:53:40 -0800 (PST), Nick Cat
wrote:

On Friday, 4 December 2020 at 18:05:57 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:58:33 +0000, wrote:

On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far
too much energy without adding to the waste with more of these
ridiculous things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)
Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed to
do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.


He is.

Except, things change and then he can't. In many cases a group of people
already know that the changes are afoot and change before they are
forced to, simply because it's the *right thing* to do.

I realise '*right thing* simply isn't on the radar of a selfish minority
and they will inevitably spoil it for the majority.

I saw something on Youtube re some folk who were living in their vans
(in the USA in this case) because they had lost their jobs and so homes.
The guy in the video realised that parking up in say a shopping Mal car
park overnight might not be 'Allowed' but the small group that were
doing it kept themselves to themselves, didn't stay there all the time
and cleared up any litter, even though they themselves hadn't made it.
They also made a point of shopping in the store whose carpark they were
staying in, even though it wasn't the best / cheapest, because it was
the right thing to do.

Then more people started turning up, *didn't* clear up or keep quiet or
go somewhere else during the day so they *all* got told to leave and
don't come back.

Bill would be the one complaining that he had the money to keep slaves
or smoke over people in the pub because it was 'his right', without
considering his active inflicting smoke on non smokers was less 'fair'
than the non-smokers having the right to not have to suffer such.

Just because something is legal or 'legitimate' now doesn't mean it's
will continue (to be legal) and therefore question it's legality or
morality ever.

Cheers, T i m

I'm will Bill on this one.

Certainly not with you!

Cheers



Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sat, 05 Dec 2020 13:48:16 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 04/12/2020 20:52, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 11:53:40 -0800 (PST), Nick Cat
wrote:

On Friday, 4 December 2020 at 18:05:57 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:58:33 +0000, wrote:

On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far
too much energy without adding to the waste with more of these
ridiculous things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference
is that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)
Basically Bills view on the world is that if you can afford it, and
presumably it's not actually illegal, he / anyone should be allowed
to do it, no matter how much it might impact anyone / thing else.


He is.

Except, things change and then he can't. In many cases a group of
people already know that the changes are afoot and change before they
are forced to, simply because it's the *right thing* to do.

I realise '*right thing* simply isn't on the radar of a selfish
minority and they will inevitably spoil it for the majority.

How do you define the "right thing" though? More to the point, who's
agenda is being satisfied with the chosen value of "right"?

So, you decide that providing radiant warmth for those sitting outside
is morally wrong. Perhaps those that are unable to visit their loved
ones inside due to social distancing rules, would disagree with you, and
argue that protecting their mental health is more important and hence
the right thing to do.

What about if the heat source is "carbon neutral" (if that is the reason
you object to radiant space heating)? Or is that then just a slippery
slope to BBQing some unfortunate mammal that we previously raped without
it's prior written consent?

I saw something on Youtube re some folk who were living in their vans

snip

Bill would be the one

Sorry I missed the post where Bill elected you to be his spokesman.

Thanks John, some sanity.

Life is all about choices, but there are few automatically "wrong"
choices, just ingrained prejudices.
[Like Bill and his Marxists. I consider myself left wing and I'm the one
wanting to heat my veranda.]

Well spotted that one of the reasons for having an outdoor area heated in
the winter is to allow social mixing (within the law) with a reduced risk
of infection.

Cheers



Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sat, 05 Dec 2020 10:40:04 +0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 05:35:19 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/12/2020 13:58, wrote:
On 04/12/2020 01:43, williamwright wrote:
On 03/12/2020 19:28, wrote:

Please consider wearing a hat and coat instead. We all waste far too
much energy without adding to the waste with more of these
ridiculous things.

Bugger off! It's none of your business.

Bill
Nor yours, FWIW (unless you're an alias of the OP). The difference is
that I was polite and made a positive suggestion.
(No reply required)

You weren't polite because your suggestion was intrinsically rude: you
said he should change his lifestyle to suit your mindset.

The OP invited suggestion and not doing something is a valid suggestion
here.

The only
reasonable response to stuff like that is "Bugger off!"

Only to someone who doesn't have a full complement of emotions and
understanding of the bigger picture.

Have you ever heard the term 'Overconsumption' and do you have a clue
what it might mean?

Cheers, T i m

OK.

Upgrade to "Oh, bugger off"."

Hopefully somebody will find time amongst all this **** to answer the
original question.

Cheers



Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 20:26:51 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 03/12/2020 20:12:08, Chris Green wrote:
David wrote:

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices
for things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for
1.5 kW wall mounted strips.

That seems expensive, a 1200W one from Screwfix is £19.99.

But the Screwfix one is only to IPX4

From a random and brief Internet search:

"To ensure a level 4 protection against a liquid element, water is sprayed
from all directions towards the device for 5 minutes. If the device
resists, it is IPX4 certified. So we can say that it resists water jets
(or splashing water)."

Given that the proposed site is fully sheltered from water by a plastic
roof as far as I can tell IPX4 protection is more than adequate.

Oh, and thanks to Chris G for the pointer.

Cheers



Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 03/12/2020 19:13, Nick Cat wrote:
On Thursday, 3 December 2020 at 16:22:28 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.
There are weather proof 13 Amp sockets within the area of this veranda.

The obvious solution seems to be IR heaters high up the wall or on the
rafters below the roof.

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look remarkably
like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in bathrooms, but I
suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat onto the body instead
of trying to warm the whole room. Just more modern technology in the heat
source.

Do these things work effectively?

The big sod off gas ones found outside pubs do seem to chuck out some
heat, but I am assuming that bottled gas is no cheaper than mains
electricity.

Free standing might make them also work in the shed but I'm not sure that
will work in practice, and permanently mounted seems a much neater
solution.

Cheers


Dave R

all those things are grossly inefficient


NT

Ditto 'bi-folds'. One of the most stupid ideas the building
industry has come up with.

On 05/12/2020 12:42, fred wrote:
On Thursday, December 3, 2020 at 4:22:28 PM UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
We have an outdoor area at the rear of the house which is a wooden deck
with a plastic sloping roof to keep (some of) the rain off.
I say "some of" because the rain is blowing in and almost reaching the
bifolds.

The deck/roof is roughly 2.3 metres deep and 2.5 metres high.

I was contemplating adding some heating to allow us to sit out on cold
clear days so I am looking for advice.
There are weather proof 13 Amp sockets within the area of this veranda.

The obvious solution seems to be IR heaters high up the wall or on the
rafters below the roof.

I've started looking at IR heaters and there is a vast range of prices for
things which look remarkable similar, from around £70 to £300 for 1.5 kW
wall mounted strips.

I am slightly bemused that these trendy modern IR heaters look remarkably
like the electric wall heaters that used to be found in bathrooms, but I
suspect that the same idea is in use - direct heat onto the body instead
of trying to warm the whole room. Just more modern technology in the heat
source.

Do these things work effectively?

The big sod off gas ones found outside pubs do seem to chuck out some
heat, but I am assuming that bottled gas is no cheaper than mains
electricity.

Free standing might make them also work in the shed but I'm not sure that
will work in practice, and permanently mounted seems a much neater
solution.

Cheers


Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


These type of heaters are very common on the continent in pavement cafes but they remind me of an old Vauxhall car I had where the heater would roast your left foot while the right foot froze. Streuth we accepted some dire cars in days gone by


That applies to all cars. The footwell outlet from the heater is going
to blow hot air on the left foot, and your front passengers left foot,
because of the location of the heater.