On 27/02/2020 22:13, Steve Walker wrote:
On 26/02/2020 19:38, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 07:23:48 UTC, Jim GM4DHJ ...Â* wrote:
On 25/02/2020 21:56, mm0fmf wrote:
On 25/02/2020 21:29, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
If this just a fan belt make sure you have plenty of old tights
handy.
Â*Â* If its more crucial, then don't take chances.
Â*Â* Brian

He doesn't wear them. Just his wife's panties.


shut it chebs....

can't believe using nylons as a temporary replacement ever
worked...and certainly not with modern flat grooved belts with
tensioners on the engine...

I used some rope one time, just tied it as tight as I could, there was
no tensioner wheel. It slipped a lot but got me there. Nylons might
perhaps have got the fan turning slowly, enough to make it overheat
slower than no fan.


I had a fan belt snap late one night in London. RAC failed to turn
up. By
this time it was the wee small hours. So just drove home. Battery
was up
to it. and the fan turned the pump to give enough water circulation to
prevent overheating. While moving above 15 mph or so. Wouldn't have got
away with it in the rush hour, though.


There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

(*) maybe they get trapped by the undertrays that a lot of
manufacturers fit on modern cars.
you are correct not many old bangers with v belts still on the road
and serpintine ones never break ...I had spares in the boot for two
100,000 mile mercs and never used them.....

I was once a passenger in a car with a serpentine, multi-v belt. The
driver accelerated hard and suddenly the oil pressure light came on and
the car lost power.

We could see nothing wrong, but restarting gave nothing more than idling
and the oil light was still on.

It took ages to find the fault - the belt had shed a section of its
outer surface, which had hit and damaged an under-bonnet relay. That
relay was operated from the oil pressure switch and had two functions -
one was to work the oil light (hence why it was staying on) and the
other was to switch the fuel pump to full speed to give enough pressure
for normal running (hence idle only).

The remains of the relay cover were removed and a piece of the broken
cover jammed in the relay to hold the contacts closed to get us home.

SteveW
fluke

On 27/02/2020 22:16, Steve Walker wrote:
On 27/02/2020 22:13, Steve Walker wrote:
On 26/02/2020 19:38, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 07:23:48 UTC, Jim GM4DHJ ...Â* wrote:
On 25/02/2020 21:56, mm0fmf wrote:
On 25/02/2020 21:29, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
If this just a fan belt make sure you have plenty of old tights
handy.
Â*Â* If its more crucial, then don't take chances.
Â*Â* Brian

He doesn't wear them. Just his wife's panties.


shut it chebs....

can't believe using nylons as a temporary replacement ever
worked...and certainly not with modern flat grooved belts with
tensioners on the engine...

I used some rope one time, just tied it as tight as I could, there
was
no tensioner wheel. It slipped a lot but got me there. Nylons might
perhaps have got the fan turning slowly, enough to make it overheat
slower than no fan.


I had a fan belt snap late one night in London. RAC failed to turn
up. By
this time it was the wee small hours. So just drove home. Battery
was up
to it. and the fan turned the pump to give enough water circulation to
prevent overheating. While moving above 15 mph or so. Wouldn't have
got
away with it in the rush hour, though.


There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

(*) maybe they get trapped by the undertrays that a lot of
manufacturers fit on modern cars.
you are correct not many old bangers with v belts still on the road
and serpintine ones never break ...I had spares in the boot for two
100,000 mile mercs and never used them.....

I was once a passenger in a car with a serpentine, multi-v belt. The
driver accelerated hard and suddenly the oil pressure light came on
and the car lost power.

We could see nothing wrong, but restarting gave nothing more than
idling and the oil light was still on.

It took ages to find the fault - the belt had shed a section of its
outer surface, which had hit and damaged an under-bonnet relay. That
relay was operated from the oil pressure switch and had two functions
- one was to work the oil light (hence why it was staying on) and the
other was to switch the fuel pump to full speed to give enough
pressure for normal running (hence idle only).

The remains of the relay cover were removed and a piece of the broken
cover jammed in the relay to hold the contacts closed to get us home.

SteveW

Ah, I forgot. My father's Citroen had a clutch mechanism driven off the
belt. When the clutch seized, the belt snapped and a piece about 1/2"
long managed to fire through the tiny slot between the upper and lower
timing-belt covers - with disastrous consequences.

SteveW
what did you expect from citroen ? ....

On 27/02/2020 22:27, Steve Walker wrote:
On 27/02/2020 15:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Â*Â*Â* Tim+ wrote:
I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven
fans, and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8
years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.


No, fair enough. It€˜s just a long time since I€˜ve seen one. Most of
my cars
over the last 25 years or so have been transverse engine, FWD.Â* It is
possible the my Jag XF had a viscous coupled fan, but I never looked.
;-)

I'd certainly agree electric is likely the most common these days. Not so
sure about larger traditional layout RWD from the likes of Jag, BMW, Merc
etc. I'd guess the costs of a powerful electric fan and the alternator
needed to drive it have come down, relatively.

The alternators are far bigger than anything needed for an electric fan
- on my previous car, it could drive a 1kW electric heater to speed up
heating of the car, as the highly efficient diesel was too slow to warm
up in the winter!


That's very strange, My freelander - now gone - had an oil burning
heater that used to come on in very cold weather to get the engine up to
temp. It took around 5 miles even with that, but the XF Diesel I have
now seems to have something much smarter going on - the engine is warm
in less that 2 miles judging by the heater. (It doesn't have a
temperature gauge at all).
Electronic thermostat so the water cycles round the block only when cold?

No, it appears it does have a thermostat! Must have a smaller water
jacket and a high flow pump then!


SteveW


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

Steve Walker wrote:

The alternators are far bigger than anything needed for an electric fan
- on my previous car, it could drive a 1kW electric heater to speed up
heating of the car, as the highly efficient diesel was too slow to warm
up in the winter!

This bit about diesels being so efficient that they are slow to heat up a
car has got to be nonsense.

Think about it. ICEs turn fuel into heat and heat into motion. An
efficient engine turns more of that fuel into motion by generating more
heat from the same volume of fuel.

Therefore a 100 bhp petrol engine or a 100 bhp diesel are both producing a
100bhps worth of heat, its just that the diesel is burning less fuel to
produce that heat.

As a consequence, power for power, efficiency *isnt* the reason that some
diesels are slow to warm up. Much more likely its just down to the weight
of cast iron in the engine.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ wrote
Steve Walker wrote

The alternators are far bigger than anything needed for
an electric fan - on my previous car, it could drive a 1kW
electric heater to speed up heating of the car, as the highly
efficient diesel was too slow to warm up in the winter!

This bit about diesels being so efficient that they
are slow to heat up a car has got to be nonsense.

We'll see...

Think about it.

Something that is clear beyond you...

ICEs turn fuel into heat and heat into motion.

Yes.

An efficient engine turns more of that fuel into motion
by generating more heat from the same volume of fuel.

But ends up with less wasted heat that can be used to
heat the vehicle than a less efficient petrol engine, stupid.

Therefore a 100 bhp petrol engine or a 100 bhp diesel
are both producing a 100bhps worth of heat,

But the diesel is getting more of it into moving the vehicle
and with less left over heating the engine, stupid.

its just that the diesel is burning less fuel to produce that heat.

Have fun explaining why diesel engines take longer to heat up.

As a consequence, power for power, efficiency *isnt* the
reason that some diesels are slow to warm up. Much more
likely its just down to the weight of cast iron in the engine.

Fraid not.

On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 19:20:49 +1100, John_j, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

We'll see...

We'll see you trolling here like there was no tomorrow, you clinically
insane, 86-year-old trolling senile cretin!

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
his particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Friday, 28 February 2020 08:07:51 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

The alternators are far bigger than anything needed for an electric fan
- on my previous car, it could drive a 1kW electric heater to speed up
heating of the car, as the highly efficient diesel was too slow to warm
up in the winter!

This bit about diesels being so efficient that they are slow to heat up a
car has got to be nonsense.

Think about it. ICEs turn fuel into heat and heat into motion. An
efficient engine turns more of that fuel into motion by generating more
heat from the same volume of fuel.

Therefore a 100 bhp petrol engine or a 100 bhp diesel are both producing a
100bhps worth of heat, its just that the diesel is burning less fuel to
produce that heat.

As a consequence, power for power, efficiency *isnt* the reason that some
diesels are slow to warm up. Much more likely its just down to the weight
of cast iron in the engine.

Tim

MPG has gone from, depends hugely on car & year, but typically 20s & 30s all the way upto 90mpg, depending what you get. So efficiency covers the range there of around 4:1. That means a lot less exhaust heat - but the heat going into the engine block is much the same in each case. Improving efficiency doesn't change that, and that's what powers interior heating on all modern ICE cars.

More effective cost cutting means a smaller interior heater matrix, which won't give enough heat output until the engine is hotter than otherwise. Contrast that with the original Lada that was specced to provide a +20C cabin at -40C outdoor temp - an important survival feature in Siberia. For UK use it was overkill, but it did mean it heated up fast.


NT

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2020 18:36, Andrew wrote:
On 27/02/2020 01:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

Mostly people are not running cars to as low a state as they used to.

The modern trend is to pay to have a decent car on tick of some
sort, and dump it when it gets to 70k miles or so.

Modern belts will do 100K + and are inspected as part of maintenance.

There is little point in owning a car worth under £500 these days
when tax MOT and insurance will be more than that...unless you are
driving without any of the above.



I got £150 trade in for my 1998 Astra F 1.6 petrol estate with 75K
miles and full service history. Needed a cambelt when I sold it.
GOV.UK shows it has passed its MOT twice since then and doing about
10K per year.

That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.

Dealer charge for a cam belt/water pump job on a Ford Fiesta is around
£800! Anyone care to buy a low mileage 10 year old Zetec?



--
Tim Lamb

On Thursday, 27 February 2020 22:21:42 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:24:55 -0800, harry wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 18:37:18 UTC, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
914905786.604359015.715048.tim.downie-
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven� had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


The term 'fan belt' is the problem. All? cars still have the belt but
it drives the water pump, alternator, air-con and sometimes power
steering too, while the fan is always thermostatically-controlled
electric in 'normal' cars.

My Astra has an electric hydraulic steering pump.

Latest Astra doesn't even have a thermostat, there is a gate valve
controlled by the ECU directly.

I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator,
starter motor either,

No range.

No petrol/diesel either. Free electricity from solar panels
Fine for 99.9% of my journeys

On Friday, 28 February 2020 07:17:04 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/02/2020 22:21, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:24:55 -0800, harry wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 18:37:18 UTC, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
914905786.604359015.715048.tim.downie-
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven� had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


The term 'fan belt' is the problem. All? cars still have the belt but
it drives the water pump, alternator, air-con and sometimes power
steering too, while the fan is always thermostatically-controlled
electric in 'normal' cars.

My Astra has an electric hydraulic steering pump.

Latest Astra doesn't even have a thermostat, there is a gate valve
controlled by the ECU directly.

I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator,
starter motor either,

No range.



No resale value .

perfect when you buy one year old with 375 miles on the clock.

On 28/02/2020 08:07, Tim+ wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

The alternators are far bigger than anything needed for an electric fan
- on my previous car, it could drive a 1kW electric heater to speed up
heating of the car, as the highly efficient diesel was too slow to warm
up in the winter!

This bit about diesels being so efficient that they are slow to heat up a
car has got to be nonsense.

Not really.

Think about it. ICEs turn fuel into heat and heat into motion. An
efficient engine turns more of that fuel into motion by generating more
heat from the same volume of fuel.

Therefore a 100 bhp petrol engine or a 100 bhp diesel are both producing a
100bhps worth of heat, its just that the diesel is burning less fuel to
produce that heat.


Er no, that is not even WRONG. A 100bhp engine idling at 2 bhp will if
its a diesel likely produce 4 bhp of heat and 2 bhp mechanical energy to
overcome friction.

If its petrol it will be well off it's efficiency curve and likely
produce nearer 20bhp of heat.

At rate output of 100bhp both will likely be producing upwards of 200bhp
of heat - 300KW or so.



As a consequence, power for power, efficiency *isnt* the reason that some
diesels are slow to warm up. Much more likely its just down to the weight
of cast iron in the engine.

That is also a factor.

And yet my latest diesel warms up much faster

And is still an iron block/Al head design.



Tim




--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

On 28/02/2020 09:34, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2020 18:36, Andrew wrote:
On 27/02/2020 01:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

Mostly people are not running cars to as low a state as they used to.

The modern trend is to pay to have a decent car on tick of some
sort,Â* and dump it when it gets to 70k miles or so.

Modern belts will do 100K + and are inspected as part of maintenance.

There is little point in owning a car worth under £500 these days
whenÂ* tax MOT and insurance will be more than that...unless you are
drivingÂ* without any of the above.



I got £150 trade in for my 1998 Astra F 1.6 petrol estate with 75K
miles and full service history. Needed a cambelt when I sold it.
GOV.UK shows it has passed its MOT twice since then and doing about
10K per year.

That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.

Dealer charge for a cam belt/water pump job on a Ford Fiesta is around
£800! Anyone care to buy a low mileage 10 year old Zetec?

independent will do that for sub 400.







--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/02/2020 18:47, Andrew wrote:
Apart from the BMC mini and variants, which had the rad
positioned to blow hot air into the neaside wheel arch,
did any FWD car have a belt driven fan in front of a forward
facing radiator ?

That's a jolly good point.

Transverse engines put pay to fan belts. However there were a few FWDs
with inline engines. 2CV springs to mind. Some others here.

You don't need to go abroad. The Triumph 1300 series - current with the
Mini - was FWD inline engine.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I don't remember ever having a viscous because I never had one. Maybe my
Opel Manta had one, but that was all. I went from things like midgets
and spitfires and the like to the Manta and then to a Vauxhall Astra and
jaguars. They were all electric. Maybe the XJS was viscous too.

It like mechanical fuel injection. Yes a couple of cars had it but the
transition from carbs to fully electronic was very fast.

Don't be silly.

First car I owned with a Sachs temperature controlled viscous coupling, a
S1 XJ6 on carbs. Last one, a BMW E39, made until the mid noughties. And
they were fitted to later models too. So a life of at least 40 years.

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:

This bit about diesels being so efficient that they are slow to heat up a
car has got to be nonsense.

Fact remains that on comparative sizes, a diesel is generally slower for
the heater to get going than a petrol.

--
*Starfishes have no brains *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:

This bit about diesels being so efficient that they are slow to heat up a
car has got to be nonsense.

Fact remains that on comparative sizes, a diesel is generally slower for
the heater to get going than a petrol.


I think were generally agreed on that but its not solely down to
efficiency (although Ill accept TNPs point about heat production at
idle), its largely down to the size of the heat sink and emission control
mechanisms that prioritise getting an engine up to working temperature
quickly over cabin heating. This is why some diesels have auxiliary diesel
fuelled heating systems.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 28/02/2020 12:22, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:

This bit about diesels being so efficient that they are slow to heat up a
car has got to be nonsense.

Fact remains that on comparative sizes, a diesel is generally slower for
the heater to get going than a petrol.


I think were generally agreed on that but its not solely down to
efficiency (although Ill accept TNPs point about heat production at
idle), its largely down to the size of the heat sink and emission control
mechanisms that prioritise getting an engine up to working temperature
quickly over cabin heating. This is why some diesels have auxiliary diesel
fuelled heating systems.

So as to emit far more CO2....
Tim



--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On 28/02/2020 08:07, Tim+ wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

The alternators are far bigger than anything needed for an electric fan
- on my previous car, it could drive a 1kW electric heater to speed up
heating of the car, as the highly efficient diesel was too slow to warm
up in the winter!

This bit about diesels being so efficient that they are slow to heat up a
car has got to be nonsense.

Think about it. ICEs turn fuel into heat and heat into motion. An
efficient engine turns more of that fuel into motion by generating more
heat from the same volume of fuel.

Therefore a 100 bhp petrol engine or a 100 bhp diesel are both producing a
100bhps worth of heat, its just that the diesel is burning less fuel to
produce that heat.

No. The higher efficiency means that there is less waste heat for a
given amount of useful energy produced. Supposedly real world figures
are around 80% for petrol and 70% for diesel.

Less waste heat means slower to warm up.

As a consequence, power for power, efficiency *isnt* the reason that some
diesels are slow to warm up. Much more likely its just down to the weight
of cast iron in the engine.

Indeed the extra mass does slow warming, but that is even more of a
problem because of the smaller quantity of waste heat being produced.

SteveW

In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.

Dealer charge for a cam belt/water pump job on a Ford Fiesta is around
£800! Anyone care to buy a low mileage 10 year old Zetec?

Odd, isn't it? When they first arrived they were little different to a fan
belt to change.

Think there's a Ferrari which gets the award, though. Engine out job for a
routine cam belt change.

--
*No radio - Already stolen.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
This bit about diesels being so efficient that they are slow to heat up a
car has got to be nonsense.

Think about it. ICEs turn fuel into heat and heat into motion. An
efficient engine turns more of that fuel into motion by generating more
heat from the same volume of fuel.

Therefore a 100 bhp petrol engine or a 100 bhp diesel are both producing a
100bhp‘s worth of heat, it‘s just that the diesel is burning less fuel to
produce that heat.

At full output, the difference in efficiency between petrol and diesel
isn't so great.

It's at low output where the two diverge more. Hence things like local
delivery vans being diesel for a very long time.

And poorer efficiency means more waste heat. And warming up very rarely
happens at full engine output. If it did, most won't last that long.

Of course modern engine management has brought the two closer than once.
But hasn't done much about a petrol engines being at its most inefficient
when warming up.

--
*You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
I think we‘re generally agreed on that but it‘s not solely down to
efficiency (although I‘ll accept TNP‘s point about heat production at
idle), it‘s largely down to the size of the heat sink and emission
control mechanisms that prioritise getting an engine up to working
temperature quickly over cabin heating.

You'll need to explain that. A basic diesel may be slightly more chunky
than the equivalent petrol, but not by a big margin.

This is why some diesels have auxiliary diesel
fuelled heating systems.

That's because they take longer to heat up than petrol engines. ;-)

--
*Eat well, stay fit, die anyway

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/02/2020 15:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.

Dealer charge for a cam belt/water pump job on a Ford Fiesta is around
£800! Anyone care to buy a low mileage 10 year old Zetec?

Odd, isn't it? When they first arrived they were little different to a fan
belt to change.

Think there's a Ferrari which gets the award, though. Engine out job for a
routine cam belt change.

That was because they didn't have a stonking great engine mount in the
middle and the engines were of non-interference
type....interference..nudge nudge...cock in the arse..nudge nudge...tee hee

On 27 Feb 2020 14:51:23 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

snip

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive “roar” on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Whilst that makes sense on a PC fan to blow the dust out g, I don't
remember it happening on the viscous coupled fan on my 2L Sierra
Estate?

On cold start it may have idled round from the drag in the system but
you could very easily hold it when starting and you could only just
feel it trying to turn?

Once the heat starts blowing though from the rad however, it really
firms up and does it thing.

It sounds like the Volvo one worked differently?

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On 27 Feb 2020 14:51:23 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

snip

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive “roar” on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Whilst that makes sense on a PC fan to blow the dust out g, I don't
remember it happening on the viscous coupled fan on my 2L Sierra
Estate?

On cold start it may have idled round from the drag in the system but
you could very easily hold it when starting and you could only just
feel it trying to turn?

Once the heat starts blowing though from the rad however, it really
firms up and does it thing.

It sounds like the Volvo one worked differently?


It just seemed to be €œdraggy€� when first spun up from cold. Within seconds
I guess the oil or whatever inside it would warm and the drag would
dramatically drop, at least until the engine was hot enough to actually
need cooling down.

I dont think it was different in principle from any other, it just had a
high start up drag.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 28 Feb 2020 18:28:27 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

snip

It sounds like the Volvo one worked differently?


It just seemed to be “draggy” when first spun up from cold.

As was mine but not anything like enough to keep up with the engine
RPM, even if given plenty of time (seconds). It did spin up in time
(10's of seconds) but still only a percentage of engine revs (because
of aerodynamic drag on the fan part of the blade) and if you slowed
and stopped it with something (not a finger), you could then still
hold it with a finger until you got enough hot water though the rad to
heat the bi-metallic actuator on the fan itself.

Within seconds
I guess the oil or whatever inside it would warm

If like mine it was an aluminium hub (bolted on the front of the water
pump) filled with an oil, that was only allowed into the engagement
area on the hub when the bi-metallic actuator was hot enough (from air
the rad as it wasn't touching anything, other than at the two ends).

and the drag would
dramatically drop, at least until the engine was hot enough to actually
need cooling down.

?

Maybe the oil would run into the 'drive' position when idle and get
moved back into the reservoir after a few seconds of engine revs?

I don’t think it was different in principle from any other, it just had a
high start up drag.

Understood.

Cheers, T i m

In article , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 27/02/2020 18:36, Andrew wrote:
On 27/02/2020 01:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

Mostly people are not running cars to as low a state as they used to.

The modern trend is to pay to have a decent car on tick of some
sort, and dump it when it gets to 70k miles or so.

Modern belts will do 100K + and are inspected as part of maintenance.

There is little point in owning a car worth under £500 these days
when tax MOT and insurance will be more than that...unless you are
driving without any of the above.



I got £150 trade in for my 1998 Astra F 1.6 petrol estate with 75K
miles and full service history. Needed a cambelt when I sold it.
GOV.UK shows it has passed its MOT twice since then and doing about
10K per year.

That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.

Dealer charge for a cam belt/water pump job on a Ford Fiesta is around
£800! Anyone care to buy a low mileage 10 year old Zetec?



Just been quoted £475 +vat for cam belt change on VW Transporter by
dealer. About to start shopping around independents.
--
bert

On 28/02/2020 18:28, Tim+ wrote:
T i m wrote:
On 27 Feb 2020 14:51:23 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

snip

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive “roar” on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Whilst that makes sense on a PC fan to blow the dust out g, I don't
remember it happening on the viscous coupled fan on my 2L Sierra
Estate?

On cold start it may have idled round from the drag in the system but
you could very easily hold it when starting and you could only just
feel it trying to turn?

Once the heat starts blowing though from the rad however, it really
firms up and does it thing.

It sounds like the Volvo one worked differently?


It just seemed to be €œdraggy€� when first spun up from cold. Within seconds
I guess the oil or whatever inside it would warm and the drag would
dramatically drop, at least until the engine was hot enough to actually
need cooling down.

I dont think it was different in principle from any other, it just had a
high start up drag.

During normal running, the fluid is effectively "pumped" to the hub
reservoir and only released when heat opens the valve and lets the fluid
out. Once the valve opens, fluid continuously circulates, hub to
periphery to hub - and the viscous drag when it is between those
positions drives the fan.

It is possible that when stopping the engine, the heat means that valve
is open, but the lack of rotation prevents it pumping back to the hub.
If so, the fluid will remain between the sections and provide drag on
startup, which will only reduce as the fluid gradually ends up back in
the reservoir?

SteveW

On 28/02/2020 15:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.

Dealer charge for a cam belt/water pump job on a Ford Fiesta is around
£800! Anyone care to buy a low mileage 10 year old Zetec?

Odd, isn't it? When they first arrived they were little different to a fan
belt to change.

Think there's a Ferrari which gets the award, though. Engine out job for a
routine cam belt change.

I was going to change my cam-belt soon (Zafira B 1.8) and was finding
kits (including water pump) for around £99. I spoke to a local,
independent garage that I trust (I don't trust many of them) and they,
because they can buy kits much cheaper, quoted only £150-odd to supply
and fit! For the sake of £50-odd, I can't be bothered doing the work
myself. I can make that up by spending two extra hours at work.

SteveW

In article ,
T i m wrote:
The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive “roar” on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Whilst that makes sense on a PC fan to blow the dust out g, I don't
remember it happening on the viscous coupled fan on my 2L Sierra
Estate?

Some do that. Not sure if all. Seems to take a few seconds before the
drive sorts itself out.

But before that cold start, the fan can still be turned easily, engine
stopped.

--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/02/2020 23:25, Steve Walker wrote:
On 28/02/2020 15:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Tim Lamb wrote:
That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.

Dealer charge for a cam belt/water pump job on a Ford Fiesta is around
£800! Anyone care to buy a low mileage 10 year old Zetec?

Odd, isn't it? When they first arrived they were little different to a
fan
belt to change.

Think there's a Ferrari which gets the award, though. Engine out job
for a
routine cam belt change.

I was going to change my cam-belt soon (Zafira B 1.8) and was finding
kitsÂ* (including water pump) for around £99. I spoke to a local,
independent garage that I trust (I don't trust many of them) and they,
because they can buy kits much cheaper, quoted only £150-odd to supply
and fit! For the sake of £50-odd, I can't be bothered doing the work
myself. I can make that up by spending two extra hours at work.

SteveW

It is crucially dependent on the vehicle.

Some vehicles its a 'cam cover off, lock crank and cam in place, release
tensioner, remove and replace belt, replace cover, and go'.

For other vehicles it may mean dismantling half the car to get at it.


It's the same for many other components. On my freelander the thermostat
was almost impossible to reach without dismantling large amounts of
underbonnet trash, similar for the high pressure fuel pump.
But the turbo-to-inlet hose which splits often, is a 2 minute job with a
screwdriver.

Clutches that need a complete gearbox removal or and engine removal are
another sometimes expensive item

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

On Friday, 28 February 2020 17:03:41 UTC, T i m wrote:
On 27 Feb 2020 14:51:23 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

snip

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive €œroar€� on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Whilst that makes sense on a PC fan to blow the dust out g, I don't
remember it happening on the viscous coupled fan on my 2L Sierra
Estate?

On cold start it may have idled round from the drag in the system but
you could very easily hold it when starting and you could only just
feel it trying to turn?

Once the heat starts blowing though from the rad however, it really
firms up and does it thing.

It sounds like the Volvo one worked differently?

Cheers, T i m

The viscous clutch on a viscous fan slips more and more with engine revs.
This is because the fan is unnecessary at speed. The forward motion of the car is sufficient.

In article ,
harry wrote:
The viscous clutch on a viscous fan slips more and more with engine
revs. This is because the fan is unnecessary at speed. The forward
motion of the car is sufficient.

The fan might be most needed when say towing up a steep hill at low
speed.

Hence most decent ones being thermostatically controlled for many a year,
rather than one which simply limits the fan speed.

--
*What happens when none of your bees wax? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Saturday, 29 February 2020 10:45:56 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
The viscous clutch on a viscous fan slips more and more with engine
revs. This is because the fan is unnecessary at speed. The forward
motion of the car is sufficient.

The fan might be most needed when say towing up a steep hill at low
speed.

Hence most decent ones being thermostatically controlled for many a year,
rather than one which simply limits the fan speed.


How do you thermostatically control a purely mechanical device?

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 29 February 2020 10:45:56 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
The viscous clutch on a viscous fan slips more and more with engine
revs. This is because the fan is unnecessary at speed. The forward
motion of the car is sufficient.

The fan might be most needed when say towing up a steep hill at low
speed.

Hence most decent ones being thermostatically controlled for many a year,
rather than one which simply limits the fan speed.


How do you thermostatically control a purely mechanical device?

One obvious way is with something close to a bimetallic strip.
Another is to use something that melts with higher temps
like with wax etc.

On Mon, 2 Mar 2020 20:16:50 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Another is to use something that melts with higher temps
like with wax etc.

Yeah, you need something like that shoved down your throat, you senile
asshole troll!

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

harry wrote:
On Saturday, 29 February 2020 10:45:56 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
The viscous clutch on a viscous fan slips more and more with engine
revs. This is because the fan is unnecessary at speed. The forward
motion of the car is sufficient.

The fan might be most needed when say towing up a steep hill at low
speed.

Hence most decent ones being thermostatically controlled for many a year,
rather than one which simply limits the fan speed.


How do you thermostatically control a purely mechanical device?


https://youtu.be/UwM4OqsLek4

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article ,
harry wrote:
On Saturday, 29 February 2020 10:45:56 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
The viscous clutch on a viscous fan slips more and more with engine
revs. This is because the fan is unnecessary at speed. The forward
motion of the car is sufficient.

The fan might be most needed when say towing up a steep hill at low
speed.

Hence most decent ones being thermostatically controlled for many a year,
rather than one which simply limits the fan speed.


How do you thermostatically control a purely mechanical device?

Via a valve in the viscous coupling.

Such a drive is obvious if you look at it. It has a helical spring on the
outside which operates the valve by the temperature of the air passing
over it.

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/02/2020 08:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/02/2020 23:25, Steve Walker wrote:
On 28/02/2020 15:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Tim Lamb wrote:
That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.

Dealer charge for a cam belt/water pump job on a Ford Fiesta is around
£800! Anyone care to buy a low mileage 10 year old Zetec?

Odd, isn't it? When they first arrived they were little different to
a fan
belt to change.

Think there's a Ferrari which gets the award, though. Engine out job
for a
routine cam belt change.

I was going to change my cam-belt soon (Zafira B 1.8) and was finding
kitsÂ* (including water pump) for around £99. I spoke to a local,
independent garage that I trust (I don't trust many of them) and they,
because they can buy kits much cheaper, quoted only £150-odd to supply
and fit! For the sake of £50-odd, I can't be bothered doing the work
myself. I can make that up by spending two extra hours at work.

SteveW

It is crucially dependent on the vehicle.

Some vehicles its a 'cam cover off, lock crank and cam in place, release
tensioner, remove and replace belt, replace cover, and go'.

For other vehicles it may mean dismantling half the car to get at it.


It's the same for many other components. On my freelander the thermostat
was almost impossible to reach without dismantling large amounts of
underbonnet trash, similar for the high pressure fuel pump.
But the turbo-to-inlet hose which splits often, is a 2 minute job with a
screwdriver.

Clutches that need a complete gearbox removal or and engine removal are
another sometimes expensive item


The Astra/Zafira only needs the engine supprted while the offside
engine mount is removed. Then its jyst a case of removing aircleaner
and outer pully that drives alternator and air con and cambelt cover.

On 27/02/2020 19:06, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 27/02/2020 18:42, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 19:32, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:32, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Just realised the serpentine belt on one of my cars has covered
110.000
miles... is this normal?...it looks OK....think the reason I never
changed it was that the engine mount would have to be
removed...stupid
design ....

Most sensible people would change the serpentine belt according to the
maker's service schedule. But never mind - you can always just buy
another
car.


Latest Peugeot engine has a cambelt that runs in oil.

Seems to be a commonm practice now :-


https://blog.motoringassist.com/car-...-bio-overview/

rubber and oil don't mix .....

Synthetic 'rubber' is impervious to oil. Even more important to use
the correct oil though.
wouldn't risk it I use cheap oil at £10 for 5L ain't paying £30 for the
pleasure....

Cheap oil is not synthetic. Modern cars run at much higher temperatures
than mineral oil can cope with. On old cast-iron lumps it is the wear
on things like camshaft lobes that might be more of a problem if you
use the wrong oil.

On 27/02/2020 22:21, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:24:55 -0800, harry wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 18:37:18 UTC, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
914905786.604359015.715048.tim.downie-
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven� had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


The term 'fan belt' is the problem. All? cars still have the belt but
it drives the water pump, alternator, air-con and sometimes power
steering too, while the fan is always thermostatically-controlled
electric in 'normal' cars.

My Astra has an electric hydraulic steering pump.

Latest Astra doesn't even have a thermostat, there is a gate valve
controlled by the ECU directly.

I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator,
starter motor either,

No range.



And still costs just as much to 'service' by a franchised dealer