On 26/02/2020 22:38, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven‘t had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these days.

********.


Excepting folk who own ancient rovers and dont understand the idea that
€œfor years€� = a very long time (but not an infinitely long time).

Name a modern car with a fan belt.

Tim

do they not do vicious fan clutches any more?....probably too in-
efficient.....

On 26/02/2020 21:10, Peeler wrote:
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 07:31:30 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile troll****

Seriously, you 86-year-old senile troll, where's your Nembutal? I hope you
didn't throw it away! You WILL still need it! I'll see to it that you will!
LMAO

how many years has he been 86 for then ? ....

On 27/02/2020 01:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

Mostly people are not running cars to as low a state as they used to.

The modern trend is to pay to have a decent car on tick of some sort,
and dump it when it gets to 70k miles or so.

Modern belts will do 100K + and are inspected as part of maintenance.

There is little point in owning a car worth under £500 these days when
tax MOT and insurance will be more than that...unless you are driving
without any of the above.



bollox my wagon r cost £4k in 2010 at three years old and now at 13
years old has 110k miles on it still drives like new.....hope it never
dies ....not worth much but as I have changed the oil and filter every
5k miles it is worth more to me....you must know the cost of everything
and the value of nothing ....

On 27/02/2020 01:21, wrote:
On Thursday, 27 February 2020 01:02:16 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:

There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

Mostly people are not running cars to as low a state as they used to.

The modern trend is to pay to have a decent car on tick of some sort,
and dump it when it gets to 70k miles or so.

Modern belts will do 100K + and are inspected as part of maintenance.

There is little point in owning a car worth under £500 these days when
tax MOT and insurance will be more than that...unless you are driving
without any of the above.

Mine's both the highest mileage and most reliable I've ever had - would be silly to get rid & downgrade to something newer with much worse mpg. Cars are able to do ever more miles per life as the years roll by.


NT

here hear

"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2020 22:38, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven€˜t had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these days.

********.


Excepting folk who own ancient rovers and dont understand the idea that
€œfor years€� = a very long time (but not an infinitely long time).

Name a modern car with a fan belt.

do they not do vicious fan clutches any more?....

No point, electric fans leave them for dead.

probably too inefficient.....

And electric fans are much simpler now that
alternators mean there is plenty of electricity,

"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
On 27/02/2020 01:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

Mostly people are not running cars to as low a state as they used to.

The modern trend is to pay to have a decent car on tick of some sort, and
dump it when it gets to 70k miles or so.

Modern belts will do 100K + and are inspected as part of maintenance.

There is little point in owning a car worth under £500 these days when
tax MOT and insurance will be more than that...unless you are driving
without any of the above.



bollox my wagon r cost £4k in 2010 at three years old and now at 13 years
old has 110k miles on it still drives like new.....hope it never dies
....not worth much but as I have changed the oil and filter every 5k miles

Waste of time and money.

it is worth more to me....you must know the cost of everything and the
value of nothing ....

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:04:29 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Waste of time and money.

You and your senile "life" certainly are, you subnormal 86-year-old trolling
asshole!

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:02:31 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


No point, electric fans leave them for dead.

You have ANY idea how MANY people would like to leave YOU for dead, you
clinically insane 86-year-old trolling senile pest?

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven# had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


So what kind of pixies drive your cooling fans? If you car is younger
than about 20 years old, they‘ll be electric pixies.

Not so. Many much later than that used a temperature controlled viscous
coupling to drive an ordinary fan. Which just idles round when not needed.

To provide the same degree of cooling, you'd need an extremely powerful
electric one.

When a car is moving, the airflow through the rad means a decent viscous
coupling is going to waste a tiny amount of power, unless needed to cool
things. And when needed (like say when stopped or moving slowly, is an
electric one going to be any more efficient? After all the same belt
drives the alternator which feeds the electric motor.

Many of these setups will also have a supplementary electric fan, for the
AC, at high demand times.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 07:43:29 +0000
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:


do they not do vicious fan clutches any more?....probably too in-
efficient.....

Were viscous clutches vicious?

--
Davey.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven‘t had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these days.

********.


Excepting folk who own ancient rovers and don‘t understand the idea that
”for years• = a very long time (but not an infinitely long time).

I may own an old car, but it isn't my only one. Can't quote my more modern
one as an example as it has a mid engine and front rads, so rather
difficult to have an engine driven fan.

Name a modern car with a fan belt.

They are not normally called that these days, as they drive more than just
a fan. Commonly a serpentine belt, as they can drive from both sides of
the belt, unlike the V design of most pure fan belts.

--
*If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven# had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


So what kind of pixies drive your cooling fans? If you car is younger
than about 20 years old, they‘ll be electric pixies.

I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven fans,
and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8 years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.

--
*I want it all and I want it delivered

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven# had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


So what kind of pixies drive your cooling fans? If you car is younger
than about 20 years old, they‘ll be electric pixies.

I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven fans,
and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8 years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.


No, fair enough. Its just a long time since Ive seen one. Most of my cars
over the last 25 years or so have been transverse engine, FWD. It is
possible the my Jag XF had a viscous coupled fan, but I never looked. ;-)

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive €œroar€� on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven
fans, and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8
years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.


No, fair enough. It‘s just a long time since I‘ve seen one. Most of my cars
over the last 25 years or so have been transverse engine, FWD. It is
possible the my Jag XF had a viscous coupled fan, but I never looked. ;-)

I'd certainly agree electric is likely the most common these days. Not so
sure about larger traditional layout RWD from the likes of Jag, BMW, Merc
etc. I'd guess the costs of a powerful electric fan and the alternator
needed to drive it have come down, relatively.

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive ”roar• on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

And the racket they can make when the rad temp makes them lock up. Which
doesn't last long. Apart from rear engined buses in London on a hot day.
Talk about noise pollution. ;-)

--
*It doesn't take a genius to spot a goat in a flock of sheep *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/02/2020 14:51, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven# had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


So what kind of pixies drive your cooling fans? If you car is younger
than about 20 years old, they‘ll be electric pixies.

I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven fans,
and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8 years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.


No, fair enough. Its just a long time since Ive seen one. Most of my cars
over the last 25 years or so have been transverse engine, FWD. It is
possible the my Jag XF had a viscous coupled fan, but I never looked. ;-)


No, its electric

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive €œroar€� on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Tim

Don't remember ever having a viscous - went from belt driven to electric!



--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 27/02/2020 01:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

Mostly people are not running cars to as low a state as they used to.

The modern trend is to pay to have a decent car on tick of some sort,
and dump it when it gets to 70k miles or so.

Modern belts will do 100K + and are inspected as part of maintenance.

There is little point in owning a car worth under £500 these days when
tax MOT and insurance will be more than that...unless you are driving
without any of the above.



I got £150 trade in for my 1998 Astra F 1.6 petrol estate with 75K
miles and full service history. Needed a cambelt when I sold it.
GOV.UK shows it has passed its MOT twice since then and doing about
10K per year.

On 26/02/2020 19:33, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:26, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 07:15, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 25/02/2020 19:30, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... formulated on Tuesday :
Just realised the serpentine belt on one of my cars has covered
110.000 miles... is this normal?...it looks OK....think the reason
I never changed it was that the engine mount would have to be
removed...stupid design ....

If its a cam belt, change it to avoid the expensive noises.
nah it is chain cam ....

If it's a VW they break too :-(
wouldn't touch a vw.....never had a cam chain break.....

The chain cam on the VW 1.2 TSI petrol engine does break.
Apparently all down to VW cost cutting and making the
supplier run their stamping machine longer between die
changes which resulted in stress fractures occuring in the
not-perfectly formed chain links.

On 26/02/2020 19:32, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:32, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Just realised the serpentine belt on one of my cars has covered 110.000
miles... is this normal?...it looks OK....think the reason I never
changed it was that the engine mount would have to be removed...stupid
design ....

Most sensible people would change the serpentine belt according to the
maker's service schedule. But never mind - you can always just buy
another
car.


Latest Peugeot engine has a cambelt that runs in oil.

Seems to be a commonm practice now :-


https://blog.motoringassist.com/car-...-bio-overview/

rubber and oil don't mix .....

Synthetic 'rubber' is impervious to oil. Even more important to use
the correct oil though.

On 27/02/2020 13:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven€˜t had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these days.

********.


Excepting folk who own ancient rovers and don€˜t understand the idea that
€�for years€¢ = a very long time (but not an infinitely long time).

I may own an old car, but it isn't my only one. Can't quote my more modern
one as an example as it has a mid engine and front rads, so rather
difficult to have an engine driven fan.

Name a modern car with a fan belt.

They are not normally called that these days, as they drive more than just
a fan. Commonly a serpentine belt, as they can drive from both sides of
the belt, unlike the V design of most pure fan belts.


Apart from the BMC mini and variants, which had the rad
positioned to blow hot air into the neaside wheel arch,
did any FWD car have a belt driven fan in front of a forward
facing radiator ?.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/02/2020 14:51, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven# had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


So what kind of pixies drive your cooling fans? If you car is younger
than about 20 years old, they‘ll be electric pixies.

I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven fans,
and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8 years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.


No, fair enough. Its just a long time since Ive seen one. Most of my cars
over the last 25 years or so have been transverse engine, FWD. It is
possible the my Jag XF had a viscous coupled fan, but I never looked. ;-)


No, its electric

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive €œroar€� on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Tim

Don't remember ever having a viscous - went from belt driven to electric!


Its not obvious. Its still belt driven but has some sort of fluid filled
clutch in the hub of the fan.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 27/02/2020 14:51, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven# had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


So what kind of pixies drive your cooling fans? If you car is younger
than about 20 years old, they‘ll be electric pixies.

I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven fans,
and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8 years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.


No, fair enough. Its just a long time since Ive seen one. Most of my cars
over the last 25 years or so have been transverse engine, FWD. It is
possible the my Jag XF had a viscous coupled fan, but I never looked. ;-)

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive €œroar€� on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Tim

should that not be the other way about?????

On 27/02/2020 12:39, Davey wrote:
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 07:43:29 +0000
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:


do they not do vicious fan clutches any more?....probably too in-
efficient.....

Were viscous clutches vicious?

yes if you stuck your hand on one...

On 27/02/2020 18:42, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 19:32, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:32, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Just realised the serpentine belt on one of my cars has covered
110.000
miles... is this normal?...it looks OK....think the reason I never
changed it was that the engine mount would have to be removed...stupid
design ....

Most sensible people would change the serpentine belt according to the
maker's service schedule. But never mind - you can always just buy
another
car.


Latest Peugeot engine has a cambelt that runs in oil.

Seems to be a commonm practice now :-


https://blog.motoringassist.com/car-...-bio-overview/

rubber and oil don't mix .....

Synthetic 'rubber' is impervious to oil. Even more important to use
the correct oil though.
wouldn't risk it I use cheap oil at £10 for 5L ain't paying £30 for the
pleasure....

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 18:37:18 UTC, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven� had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


The term 'fan belt' is the problem. All? cars still have the belt
but it drives the water pump, alternator, air-con and sometimes
power steering too, while the fan is always thermostatically-controlled
electric in 'normal' cars.

My Astra has an electric hydraulic steering pump.

Latest Astra doesn't even have a thermostat, there is a gate
valve controlled by the ECU directly.

I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator, starter motor either,

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Don't remember ever having a viscous - went from belt driven to electric!


It‘s not obvious. It‘s still belt driven but has some sort of fluid filled
clutch in the hub of the fan.

And temperature sensitive. It merely idles round until actually needed. So
wastes little if any power - assuming the water pump is still belt driven.

In the days of a directly driven fan, an electric thermostatically
controlled one would obviously save power.

--
*If tennis elbow is painful, imagine suffering with tennis balls *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/02/2020 19:38, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 07:23:48 UTC, Jim GM4DHJ ...Â* wrote:
On 25/02/2020 21:56, mm0fmf wrote:
On 25/02/2020 21:29, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
If this just a fan belt make sure you have plenty of old tights
handy.
Â*Â* If its more crucial, then don't take chances.
Â*Â* Brian

He doesn't wear them. Just his wife's panties.


shut it chebs....

can't believe using nylons as a temporary replacement ever
worked...and certainly not with modern flat grooved belts with
tensioners on the engine...

I used some rope one time, just tied it as tight as I could, there was
no tensioner wheel. It slipped a lot but got me there. Nylons might
perhaps have got the fan turning slowly, enough to make it overheat
slower than no fan.


I had a fan belt snap late one night in London. RAC failed to turn
up. By
this time it was the wee small hours. So just drove home. Battery was up
to it. and the fan turned the pump to give enough water circulation to
prevent overheating. While moving above 15 mph or so. Wouldn't have got
away with it in the rush hour, though.


There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

(*) maybe they get trapped by the undertrays that a lot of
manufacturers fit on modern cars.
you are correct not many old bangers with v belts still on the road and
serpintine ones never break ...I had spares in the boot for two 100,000
mile mercs and never used them.....

I was once a passenger in a car with a serpentine, multi-v belt. The
driver accelerated hard and suddenly the oil pressure light came on and
the car lost power.

We could see nothing wrong, but restarting gave nothing more than idling
and the oil light was still on.

It took ages to find the fault - the belt had shed a section of its
outer surface, which had hit and damaged an under-bonnet relay. That
relay was operated from the oil pressure switch and had two functions -
one was to work the oil light (hence why it was staying on) and the
other was to switch the fuel pump to full speed to give enough pressure
for normal running (hence idle only).

The remains of the relay cover were removed and a piece of the broken
cover jammed in the relay to hold the contacts closed to get us home.

SteveW

On 27/02/2020 22:13, Steve Walker wrote:
On 26/02/2020 19:38, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 07:23:48 UTC, Jim GM4DHJ ...Â* wrote:
On 25/02/2020 21:56, mm0fmf wrote:
On 25/02/2020 21:29, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
If this just a fan belt make sure you have plenty of old tights
handy.
Â*Â* If its more crucial, then don't take chances.
Â*Â* Brian

He doesn't wear them. Just his wife's panties.


shut it chebs....

can't believe using nylons as a temporary replacement ever
worked...and certainly not with modern flat grooved belts with
tensioners on the engine...

I used some rope one time, just tied it as tight as I could, there was
no tensioner wheel. It slipped a lot but got me there. Nylons might
perhaps have got the fan turning slowly, enough to make it overheat
slower than no fan.


I had a fan belt snap late one night in London. RAC failed to turn
up. By
this time it was the wee small hours. So just drove home. Battery
was up
to it. and the fan turned the pump to give enough water circulation to
prevent overheating. While moving above 15 mph or so. Wouldn't have got
away with it in the rush hour, though.


There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

(*) maybe they get trapped by the undertrays that a lot of
manufacturers fit on modern cars.
you are correct not many old bangers with v belts still on the road
and serpintine ones never break ...I had spares in the boot for two
100,000 mile mercs and never used them.....

I was once a passenger in a car with a serpentine, multi-v belt. The
driver accelerated hard and suddenly the oil pressure light came on and
the car lost power.

We could see nothing wrong, but restarting gave nothing more than idling
and the oil light was still on.

It took ages to find the fault - the belt had shed a section of its
outer surface, which had hit and damaged an under-bonnet relay. That
relay was operated from the oil pressure switch and had two functions -
one was to work the oil light (hence why it was staying on) and the
other was to switch the fuel pump to full speed to give enough pressure
for normal running (hence idle only).

The remains of the relay cover were removed and a piece of the broken
cover jammed in the relay to hold the contacts closed to get us home.

SteveW

Ah, I forgot. My father's Citroen had a clutch mechanism driven off the
belt. When the clutch seized, the belt snapped and a piece about 1/2"
long managed to fire through the tiny slot between the upper and lower
timing-belt covers - with disastrous consequences.

SteveW

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:24:55 -0800, harry wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 18:37:18 UTC, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
914905786.604359015.715048.tim.downie-
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven� had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


The term 'fan belt' is the problem. All? cars still have the belt but
it drives the water pump, alternator, air-con and sometimes power
steering too, while the fan is always thermostatically-controlled
electric in 'normal' cars.

My Astra has an electric hydraulic steering pump.

Latest Astra doesn't even have a thermostat, there is a gate valve
controlled by the ECU directly.

I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator,
starter motor either,

No range.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 27/02/2020 11:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven# had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


So what kind of pixies drive your cooling fans? If you car is younger
than about 20 years old, they€˜ll be electric pixies.

Not so. Many much later than that used a temperature controlled viscous
coupling to drive an ordinary fan. Which just idles round when not needed.

To provide the same degree of cooling, you'd need an extremely powerful
electric one.

When a car is moving, the airflow through the rad means a decent viscous
coupling is going to waste a tiny amount of power, unless needed to cool
things. And when needed (like say when stopped or moving slowly, is an
electric one going to be any more efficient? After all the same belt
drives the alternator which feeds the electric motor.

Viscous fans disappeared from most cars in the '90s.

Engine driven fans are not really needed at all when at speed as natural
airflow is good enough, but electric ones are far, far better when the
engine is idling in a queue on a hot day.

I actually removed the viscous fan from one of my cars and replaced it
with an electric one. Keeping the temperature under control under all
conditions was no longer a problem. A decent electric fan can flow an
enormous quantity of air - far more than a mechanical one can at low
engine speeds.

Many of these setups will also have a supplementary electric fan, for the
AC, at high demand times.

Yes, because they use smaller fans that cool the a/c radiator, without
having to cool the engine coolant radiator when it does not need it.

SteveW

On 27/02/2020 15:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven
fans, and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8
years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.


No, fair enough. It€˜s just a long time since I€˜ve seen one. Most of my cars
over the last 25 years or so have been transverse engine, FWD. It is
possible the my Jag XF had a viscous coupled fan, but I never looked. ;-)

I'd certainly agree electric is likely the most common these days. Not so
sure about larger traditional layout RWD from the likes of Jag, BMW, Merc
etc. I'd guess the costs of a powerful electric fan and the alternator
needed to drive it have come down, relatively.

The alternators are far bigger than anything needed for an electric fan
- on my previous car, it could drive a 1kW electric heater to speed up
heating of the car, as the highly efficient diesel was too slow to warm
up in the winter!

SteveW

On 27/02/2020 18:47, Andrew wrote:
On 27/02/2020 13:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Â*Â*Â* Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Â*Â*Â* Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven€˜t had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.


Excepting folk who own ancient rovers and don€˜t understand the idea that
€�for years€¢ = a very long time (but not an infinitely long time).

I may own an old car, but it isn't my only one. Can't quote my more
modern
one as an example as it has a mid engine and front rads, so rather
difficult to have an engine driven fan.

Name a modern car with a fan belt.

They are not normally called that these days, as they drive more than
just
a fan. Commonly a serpentine belt, as they can drive from both sides of
the belt, unlike the V design of most pure fan belts.


Apart from the BMC mini and variants, which had the rad
positioned to blow hot air into the neaside wheel arch,
did any FWD car have a belt driven fan in front of a forward
facing radiator ?.

I'd have thought it unlikely.

In an industrial setting with a horizontally mounted fan and "radiator",
I have seen a hydraulically driven fan. With a pump on the crankshaft
and a motor under the fan. That would have made more sense than a belt
for such a setup in a car.

SteveW

In article ,
harry wrote:
I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator, starter motor either,

And an extremely expensive battery with a limited life.

But then the extra cost of an electric car would pay for an awful lot of
fan belts.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
When a car is moving, the airflow through the rad means a decent
viscous coupling is going to waste a tiny amount of power, unless
needed to cool things. And when needed (like say when stopped or
moving slowly, is an electric one going to be any more efficient?
After all the same belt drives the alternator which feeds the electric
motor.

Viscous fans disappeared from most cars in the '90s.

You'd have to define most cars. Still in use in the last decade, if not
now. Unless you mean the simple viscous coupling that only restricted the
maximum speed. They were old hat in the 70s.

--
*Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
The alternators are far bigger than anything needed for an electric fan
- on my previous car, it could drive a 1kW electric heater to speed up
heating of the car, as the highly efficient diesel was too slow to warm
up in the winter!

Why not an aux diesel burning heater? Far better than a puny 1kW.

BTW, 1kW is only just over 1 BHP. Some fans take more than that.

--
*When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/02/2020 18:36, Andrew wrote:
On 27/02/2020 01:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/02/2020 18:25, Andrew wrote:
There was a time when snapped V-belts were a common sight on the
roadside, but now you never see them, and I never see the flat
multi-grooved ones either (*). Instead I see many half-moon
bits of broken coil springs on the side of the road.

Mostly people are not running cars to as low a state as they used to.

The modern trend is to pay to have a decent car on tick of some sort,
and dump it when it gets to 70k miles or so.

Modern belts will do 100K + and are inspected as part of maintenance.

There is little point in owning a car worth under £500 these days when
tax MOT and insurance will be more than that...unless you are driving
without any of the above.



I got £150 trade in for my 1998 Astra F 1.6 petrol estate with 75K
miles and full service history. Needed a cambelt when I sold it.
GOV.UK shows it has passed its MOT twice since then and doing about
10K per year.

That would have traded out at about £2 with a new cambelt and dealers
guarantee.


--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

On 27/02/2020 18:47, Andrew wrote:
Apart from the BMC mini and variants, which had the rad
positioned to blow hot air into the neaside wheel arch,
did any FWD car have a belt driven fan in front of a forward
facing radiator ?

That's a jolly good point.

Transverse engines put pay to fan belts. However there were a few FWDs
with inline engines. 2CV springs to mind. Some others here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVZ81LuLIJ8

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 27/02/2020 18:54, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/02/2020 14:51, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven# had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


So what kind of pixies drive your cooling fans? If you car is younger
than about 20 years old, they‘ll be electric pixies.

I've just done a quick Ebay search on viscous couple engine driven fans,
and the very first one came up as being for a car made up to 8 years ago.

Over to you to prove no current car has one.


No, fair enough. Its just a long time since Ive seen one. Most of my cars
over the last 25 years or so have been transverse engine, FWD. It is
possible the my Jag XF had a viscous coupled fan, but I never looked. ;-)


No, its electric

The last car that I had that definitely had a viscous coupled fan was a
Volvo 240 which always gave a distinctive €œroar€� on start up from cold
until the coupling started slipping.

Tim

Don't remember ever having a viscous - went from belt driven to electric!


Its not obvious. Its still belt driven but has some sort of fluid filled
clutch in the hub of the fan.

I don't remember ever having a viscous because I never had one. Maybe my
Opel Manta had one, but that was all. I went from things like midgets
and spitfires and the like to the Manta and then to a Vauxhall Astra and
jaguars. They were all electric. Maybe the XJS was viscous too.

It like mechanical fuel injection. Yes a couple of cars had it but the
transition from carbs to fully electronic was very fast.

Possibly because my transition from broke, running and fixing 15 year
old cars, to having enough money to not bother about lifting the bonnet
on a car less than 10 years old!!! was quite sudden.

Tim



--
€œThose who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.€�

€• Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles Ã* M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie Ã* Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

On 27/02/2020 22:21, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:24:55 -0800, harry wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 18:37:18 UTC, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
914905786.604359015.715048.tim.downie-
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven� had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these
days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


The term 'fan belt' is the problem. All? cars still have the belt but
it drives the water pump, alternator, air-con and sometimes power
steering too, while the fan is always thermostatically-controlled
electric in 'normal' cars.

My Astra has an electric hydraulic steering pump.

Latest Astra doesn't even have a thermostat, there is a gate valve
controlled by the ECU directly.

I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator,
starter motor either,

No range.



No resale value .


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 27/02/2020 19:24, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 18:37:18 UTC, Andrew wrote:
On 26/02/2020 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 11:12:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Cars haven� had fan belts for years. Fans are all electric these days.

********.

AFAIK those aren't normally electric.


The term 'fan belt' is the problem. All? cars still have the belt
but it drives the water pump, alternator, air-con and sometimes
power steering too, while the fan is always thermostatically-controlled
electric in 'normal' cars.

My Astra has an electric hydraulic steering pump.

Latest Astra doesn't even have a thermostat, there is a gate
valve controlled by the ECU directly.

I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator, starter motor either,

no chance of diy motor repair .....

On 28/02/2020 00:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
I have an electric car.
No belts of any description.
No clutch, gearbox, exhaust, oil, oil filter, air filter, alternator, starter motor either,

And an extremely expensive battery with a limited life.

But then the extra cost of an electric car would pay for an awful lot of
fan belts.

yes people will spend fortunes to try and save money .,..