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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater -anyone up on this?
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas.
The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system But b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they brought this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I cannot find out so c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can switch it off via the plug switch? None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil. Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7. Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi system and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want one? I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks. |
#2
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
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#3
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
If the bricks are okay then surely it is just elements that need relacing? |
#4
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
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#5
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote:
The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system You can still install non-LOT20 heaters if you can buy them. It's only the manufacturing of them that's banned. http://www.hwelectric.co.uk/classic.php probably have them if anybody does. Owain |
#6
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:02:39 PM UTC+1, Andrew May wrote:
On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote: I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks. Have you checked the thermal fuse? It may have overheated and cut out due to a build up of dust. A good clean and resetting (or replacing) the fuse may get it all working again. OH has checked the unit and tells me it is the charge thermostat that has gone and we have tried to find a replacement but it seems the heater is so old, they dont make the replacement part anymore - or at least not one that will fit our heater ( Its an XT12 Dimplex 1.7kw..... knocking on 30 years old , or older?) |
#7
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
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#8
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On 13/08/2018 14:34, GB wrote:
On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote: I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay.Â* All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads. "From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old pre-Jan stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new. Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what possible nonsense could the EU impose ?. |
#9
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On 13/08/2018 14:54, DerbyBorn wrote:
If the bricks are okay then surely it is just elements that need relacing? +1. Mind the asbestos though. |
#10
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
Andrew wrote:
Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what possible nonsense could the EU impose ?. They don't seem to use actual efficiency, rather a notional efficiency number, which has a starting point of 30% due to losses in the the power grid, then you gain one or more additional factors such as 7% for having a specific type of electronic timer, 1% for open window detection or 1% for adaptive start, and each model has to exceed 38% to be allowed to go on sale ... |
#11
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
In article ,
wrote: I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas. The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system TLC's catalogue lists a number of storage heaters. Some seem to be all singing & dancing; others look normal -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
#12
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
DerbyBorn wrote:
If the bricks are okay then surely it is just elements that need relacing? Over 40 years I took one of these things apart, found the broken wire in the bricks and just twisted them back together. It was dodgy, it was a long time ago but it worked. |
#13
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:54:56 UTC+1, DerbyBorn wrote:
If the bricks are okay then surely it is just elements that need relacing? One of the joints or connectors inside went on my E7 heater I though it was a wasp buzzing for a while until I took the cover off, can't remmebr where exactly because I didn't want to repair it wanted it gone. I think the new ones have a small slow fan inside that runs from normal rate rather than just the E7. |
#14
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
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#15
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On 13/08/2018 15:35, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote: Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what possible nonsense could the EU impose ?. They don't seem to use actual efficiency, rather a notional efficiency number, which has a starting point of 30% due to losses in the the power grid, then you gain one or more additional factors such as 7% for having a specific type of electronic timer, 1% for open window detection or 1% for adaptive start, and each model has to exceed 38% to be allowed to go on sale ... All the LOT20 'heaters' on that site seem to be a fraction of the power of existing storage heaters. Looks like the EU have done a 'powerful vac' and 'powerful kettle' job on storage heaters, to avoid overloading all those windmills once everyone outside Germany has decommissioned their coal-fired generators. One wonders what they are going to do to the large hadron collider that needs two french nuclear plants just to keep those magnets cold, and to all those MRI scanners that the NHS loves to buy ? |
#16
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:53:15 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article , wrote: I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas. The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system TLC's catalogue lists a number of storage heaters. Some seem to be all singing & dancing; others look normal -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle Then you find out that the not so singing ones are out of stock and you have to buy a £700 eco one. |
#17
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:06:41 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote: The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system You can still install non-LOT20 heaters if you can buy them. It's only the manufacturing of them that's banned. http://www.hwelectric.co.uk/classic.php probably have them if anybody does. Owain I have looked at this and currenly have it on favourites as I could get one. But I have to ring up. meanwhile OH is more interested in the post someone else has made about the necessary spare part. The question now iswhether it is just the spare part and it will be fixed or if we have anything more wrong. OH has the cover off and is testing the circuits or whatever it is he has to do. |
#18
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:35:33 PM UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote: Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what possible nonsense could the EU impose ?. They don't seem to use actual efficiency, rather a notional efficiency number, which has a starting point of 30% due to losses in the the power grid, then you gain one or more additional factors such as 7% for having a specific type of electronic timer, 1% for open window detection or 1% for adaptive start, and each model has to exceed 38% to be allowed to go on sale ... ..... and it costs more than twice the old ones to buy. I am not convinced by the efficiency claims and I doubt it will be any warmer at the end of the day ( but may well lamp my daytime electricity with that fan. I generally top up with a small convector on a very cold evening. In the bedroom I dont bother. |
#19
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Monday, 13 August 2018 19:26:57 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:35:33 PM UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote: Andrew wrote: Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what possible nonsense could the EU impose ?. They don't seem to use actual efficiency, rather a notional efficiency number, which has a starting point of 30% due to losses in the the power grid, then you gain one or more additional factors such as 7% for having a specific type of electronic timer, 1% for open window detection or 1% for adaptive start, and each model has to exceed 38% to be allowed to go on sale ... .... and it costs more than twice the old ones to buy. I am not convinced by the efficiency claims and I doubt it will be any warmer at the end of the day ( but may well lamp my daytime electricity with that fan. I generally top up with a small convector on a very cold evening. In the bedroom I dont bother. Can you not find what you want on ebay? I was told the idea behind the new ones is to make them more energy efficient by using weather forecasts to work out how much heat to charge with. Whether it actually works & what the savings are or aren't I've no idea. NT |
#20
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On 13/08/2018 17:51, Andrew wrote:
Looks like the EU have done a 'powerful vac' and 'powerful kettle' job on storage heaters, to avoid overloading all those windmills once everyone outside Germany has decommissioned their coal-fired generators. Which is stupid. A big fat thermal store you fill up when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing is ideal to work with renewables. (Given, of course, it will store for several days...) Andy |
#22
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas. The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system But b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they brought this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I cannot find out so c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can switch it off via the plug switch? None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil. Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7. Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi system and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want one? I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks. New storage heaters have a controlled heat output so you don't get heat when you don't want it. This is done by means of a fan than wafts the stored heat out. The fan needs an extra permanent supply (ie not off the time switch). We have had them for decades, now it seems they are to be the only ones allowed. There are significant savings money/energywise |
#23
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones are.
The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the UK the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise been happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go wrong. and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people with both gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot. I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its just a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations. I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house. Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Andrew" wrote in message news On 13/08/2018 14:34, GB wrote: On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote: I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads. "From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old pre-Jan stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new. Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what possible nonsense could the EU impose ?. |
#24
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
So how does a slow heater make any difference. Take the kettle if it takes
longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Same goes for room heaters. Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Vir Campestris" wrote in message news On 13/08/2018 17:51, Andrew wrote: Looks like the EU have done a 'powerful vac' and 'powerful kettle' job on storage heaters, to avoid overloading all those windmills once everyone outside Germany has decommissioned their coal-fired generators. Which is stupid. A big fat thermal store you fill up when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing is ideal to work with renewables. (Given, of course, it will store for several days...) Andy |
#25
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
Sorry I'm not convinced by this at all, unless somebody has made a miracle
material that can totally insulate the bricks, the device will always lose heat at a low level and thus be no more efficient. Most of my heaters are close to a standard supply as well, so one assumes a bit of creative routing of the cable would suffice, but I hope mine continue to function for a long time! I have two big ones and one small one in my house and that is all it really needs. Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "harry" wrote in message ... On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote: I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas. The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system But b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they brought this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I cannot find out so c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can switch it off via the plug switch? None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil. Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7. Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi system and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want one? I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks. New storage heaters have a controlled heat output so you don't get heat when you don't want it. This is done by means of a fan than wafts the stored heat out. The fan needs an extra permanent supply (ie not off the time switch). We have had them for decades, now it seems they are to be the only ones allowed. There are significant savings money/energywise |
#26
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 09:18:44 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
So how does a slow heater make any difference. Take the kettle if it takes longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Slight confusion of "power" and "energy" but yes if you are heating 1 l of water from 15 C to 100 C it requires a certain amount of energy. If a 1.5 kW kettle delivers that energy in 2 minutes and 3 kW one will do it in one. It can probably be argued that the 3 kW is slighly more effcient than the 1.5 kW as there is probably less radiation from the kettle in the 1 minute to 100 C compared to 2 minutes to 100 C. Same goes for room heaters. Room heaters are not quite the same. They have to balance the heat loss of the room. If their power rating is less than the heat loss they won't keep the room warm. -- Cheers Dave. |
#27
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message news I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones are. The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the UK the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise been happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go wrong. and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people with both gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot. I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its just a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations. I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house. The fan in mine is so quiet that you can't hear it. "Andrew" wrote in message news On 13/08/2018 14:34, GB wrote: On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote: I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads. "From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old pre-Jan stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new. Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what possible nonsense could the EU impose ?. |
#28
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
Brian Gaff wrote
So how does a slow heater make any difference. By putting heat into the house whether it needs heat or not. Take the kettle if it takes longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Yes. Same goes for room heaters. Nope, not if it adds heat when the room doesn’t need it. "Vir Campestris" wrote in message news On 13/08/2018 17:51, Andrew wrote: Looks like the EU have done a 'powerful vac' and 'powerful kettle' job on storage heaters, to avoid overloading all those windmills once everyone outside Germany has decommissioned their coal-fired generators. Which is stupid. A big fat thermal store you fill up when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing is ideal to work with renewables. (Given, of course, it will store for several days...) Andy |
#29
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
Brian Gaff wrote
Sorry I'm not convinced by this at all, unless somebody has made a miracle material that can totally insulate the bricks, the device will always lose heat at a low level Yes, but its obviously better if it has a fan that only runs when the room needs heat. and thus be no more efficient. It clearly is more efficient if it only adds heat to the room when the room needs to be warmer. Most of my heaters are close to a standard supply as well, so one assumes a bit of creative routing of the cable would suffice, but I hope mine continue to function for a long time! I have two big ones and one small one in my house and that is all it really needs. I have one, but don’t use it any more. I use a heated throw instead. "harry" wrote in message ... On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote: I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas. The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system But b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they brought this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I cannot find out so c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can switch it off via the plug switch? None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil. Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7. Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi system and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want one? I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks. New storage heaters have a controlled heat output so you don't get heat when you don't want it. This is done by means of a fan than wafts the stored heat out. The fan needs an extra permanent supply (ie not off the time switch). We have had them for decades, now it seems they are to be the only ones allowed. There are significant savings money/energywise |
#30
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
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#31
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
Brian Gaff was thinking very hard :
I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones are. The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the UK the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise been happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go wrong. and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people with both gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot. I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its just a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations. I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house. The little experience I had of them, was in a flat. I was out working all day and by the time I got home, the heaters had lost much of their heat. To be fair, they were old units, using a simple temperature controlled flap to release the heat and a user adjustable charge stat.. I thought at the time, it needed much better insulation and much better control of the release of heat. |
#32
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:15:35 AM UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones are. The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the UK the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise been happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go wrong. and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people with both gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot. I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its just a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations. I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house. Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Andrew" wrote in message news On 13/08/2018 14:34, GB wrote: On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote: I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads. "From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old pre-Jan stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new. Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what possible nonsense could the EU impose ?. To be honest I have been happy with mine. Not just that, it has always been cheap and easy to sort them out if they went wrong - and they dont go wrong anyway. Mine are around 40 years old. They were put in before I bought the house so my estimate of age is based on the time the house was fully refurbished - somewhere between 1977 and 1984 . The models appear to have numbers from then. I also checked the price against my mothers coal and wood burner and another member fo the families gas consumption. I seem to do better. Gas isnt cheap anymore and oil and coal are not efficient. As you say, they go wrong, they have issues with CO2 if they go wrong. Something I worry about. I had no idea about the new regulations until I looked yesterday. |
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On Tuesday, 14 August 2018 10:15:10 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote So how does a slow heater make any difference. By putting heat into the house whether it needs heat or not. Is this what you have along with your auto bedroom lights than turn on when you go to bed ? Take the kettle if it takes longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Yes. So less efficient . Same goes for room heaters. Nope, not if it adds heat when the room doesnt need it. why would it do that ? |
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On 14/08/2018 10:31, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:20:22 AM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 06:20:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote: I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I'm on your side with regards the bells an whistles and over complication but I suspect these new fangled jobies have far far better thermal insulation than a 30 or 40 year old one. This is why they need a fan, to get the heat out... The big problem with the old style is that they loose heat rather quickly and all the time. So come evening, when you want the place warm, the damn thing has run out of heat. As you know and you use another heater (at peak rate) to keep the room warm. A new, "properly" insulated one should still have stored heat (from cheap rate) for the evening, mainly due to the better insulation but also down to the control system, you can set a lower room temperature for the day than the evening. The chances are that your peak rate use will drop noticeably and the off peak will probably drop as well. The second, permenantly live supply is a PITA but if it is just for the fan/control system could just plug into the ringmain. How ever I've got the impression from somewhere that some heater may have an auxillary heater as well, one would have to look carefully at the potential loadings. -- Cheers Dave. Thanks. If I was considering buying a new storage heater for the main sitting room or dining room, I would go along with getting a new better insulated type with a fan. However, this one is for a bedroom and I am not convinced any fan is so silent it is suitable in a bedroom or that I need it there. Would moving the existing sitting room one to the bedroom work? Then have a new style one in the sitting room. I might if someone can prove the significant saving buy the newer one.... but then as someone has said, you run into all sorts of other issues like the new ones seem to have different power ratings entirely ( a bit like the new and old light bulb ratings). Suppliers seem to be suing old and new notations on this so it gets confusing. if I buy an old style one ( and I have looked at hw site for this) , at least I know that I need a 1.7 kw heater and that is it. Keep in mind the power figure is the rate of heat input and not the total energy input. So 1.7kW for say 8 hours is a maximum of 13.6 kWh of energy. It might be the room does not actually require that amount of heat, but the storage heater was specced at that capacity to allow for the fact that much of the heat will be dumped into the room at times when you don't need it. Hence it needs a larger store of energy to have any hope of having some left when you actually need it. A heater that holds less total energy, but allows its delivery in a more targeted way may well achieve the desired heating profile equally well. Some also allow a top up from peek rate electricity. Obviously more expensive to use like that on a given day, but the overall sum may actually be favourable. Say the device needs 10kWh of heat stored to cope with the 30 coldest days of the year, but only 8kWh for "normal" days. Charging to only 8kWh on cheap rate all the time, and then topping up the extra 2kWh from peak rate will actually be cheaper overall, since you are saving 2kWh x how ever many days you need the heating on Vs the expense of buying 60 kWh at peak price rather than e7 prices. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On 14/08/2018 10:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained on 14/08/2018 : So how does a slow heater* make any difference. Take the kettle if it takes longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Same goes for room heaters. Not quite the same thing. A room heater has to have deliberate loss of heat to warm the room. If the loss of heat occurs faster than the heat input, then it will not adequately warm the room. A storage heater has to have sufficient capacity to gain all the energy it needs, its charge, within the off-peak hours it is designed for. Unlikely, but a 300w storage heater would take ten times as long to gain the same charge as a 3Kw version. But you only have a few hours from about 1AM to about 7AM to store sufficient energy to last the day. |
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
On 14/08/2018 09:18, Brian Gaff wrote:
So how does a slow heater make any difference. Take the kettle if it takes longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Same goes for room heaters. Brian It allows you to still boil water on a shaky electric supply that can't actually provide a full 13A 240v. Some 100v countries have permanent electric kettles that are essentially an insulated flask with an element in that dispenses hot water to order and run at around 50W continuously. A room heater that isn't able to keep up with the losses from the room will never make it warm (at least not until midsummer). Fan heaters work better in this respect since storage heaters have a bad habit of being way too hot at night, making a nice thin layer of very hot air against the ceiling during the day and then being stone cold in the evening when you would actually like some heat back out of them. The new generation of storage heaters seem to be incredibly overpriced and underpowered. Been looking at them for our village hall. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater- anyone up on this?
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 10:20:18 +0100 (BST), Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 06:20:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote: I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom. I'm on your side with regards the bells an whistles and over complication but I suspect these new fangled jobies have far far better thermal insulation than a 30 or 40 year old one. This is why they need a fan, to get the heat out... The big problem with the old style is that they loose heat rather quickly and all the time. So come evening, when you want the place warm, the damn thing has run out of heat. As you know and you use another heater (at peak rate) to keep the room warm. Mine's the old sort (I kept one as a back-up) and when I first tried it the room was baking when I was out at work and cold in the evening. Stuck in a lot more insulation and then it was just warm to the touch and I could turn up the 'stat in the evening and get enough heat foruntil bed time. Warning: it has TWO knobs and doesn't connect to the 'net, so not useable by modern morons - oh, it's also 3.4kW - naughty! -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 14:16:50 +0100, Tufnell Park wrote:
The running costs of using night storage heaters are questionable these days as the night rate on most E7 tariffs is usually way more than half the day rate. Was going to say wrong until I checked what my tarrifs have been since April 2013. Back then off peak was 35% of peak, my current tarrif is 45%... For example, a 3kW storage will consume 21kWh per night on E7 at a notional cost of 10p/kwh gives £2.10 per day. No, they have a maximum core temperature once that is reached they cycle on the "input" stat. So once charged from cold they only take what they have lost. My off peak is 6.67p/kWHr, peak 14.67p/kWHr (+5% VAT). So you could run a 1kW convector heater at full power (in practice the thermostat will cycle on and off) for at least 10 hours @ 20p/kWh for the same cost. Hum, I feel that another section is going to get added to my cost/tariff selector spreadsheet... -- Cheers Dave. |
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LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:37:11 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
A heater that holds less total energy, but allows its delivery in a more targeted way may well achieve the desired heating profile equally well. Agreed, at the end of the E7 period an old style storeage heater is damn hot, almost dangerously hot and the room far too warm. Better control of when the stored energy is released is going to reduce the total amount consumed. "Better control" meaning higher levels of insulation and time of day related temperature set points. -- Cheers Dave. |
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