I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be)
a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing

That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

But
b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they brought this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I cannot find out

so
c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can switch it off via the plug switch?

None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil.

Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7.

Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi system and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want one?

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom.

I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks.

On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom.

I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads.

"From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in
the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a
minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old
pre-Jan stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new.

It depends on the particular heater, but as far as I can see the
secondary power is just to run a glorified time clock built into the
heater, so I can't see why it can't be plugged into an ordinary power
point. I don't think there's any requirement under LOT20 to control the
unit with an app on your phone.



I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks.


Hey, it's usenet!

If the bricks are okay then surely it is just elements that need relacing?

On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:

I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks.


Have you checked the thermal fuse? It may have overheated and cut out
due to a build up of dust. A good clean and resetting (or replacing) the
fuse may get it all working again.

On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote:
The problem is simple ( or should be)
a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing
That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

You can still install non-LOT20 heaters if you can buy them. It's only the manufacturing of them that's banned.

http://www.hwelectric.co.uk/classic.php

probably have them if anybody does.

Owain

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:02:39 PM UTC+1, Andrew May wrote:
On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:

I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks.


Have you checked the thermal fuse? It may have overheated and cut out
due to a build up of dust. A good clean and resetting (or replacing) the
fuse may get it all working again.

OH has checked the unit and tells me it is the charge thermostat that has gone and we have tried to find a replacement but it seems the heater is so old, they dont make the replacement part anymore - or at least not one that will fit our heater ( Its an XT12 Dimplex 1.7kw..... knocking on 30 years old , or older?)

wrote:

OH has checked the unit and tells me it is the charge thermostat that has gone and we have tried to find a replacement but it seems the heater is so old, they dont make the replacement part anymore - or at least not one that will fit our heater ( Its an XT12 Dimplex 1.7kw.....

The original part is discontinued

http://www.storageheater.co.uk/dimpex/xl-xt/xt12/thermostat.html

But there's a replacement

http://www.storageheater.co.uk/thermostat-cutout-2.html

On 13/08/2018 14:34, GB wrote:
On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old
version on ebay.Â* All I want is a simple night storage heater
replacement for the bedroom.

I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads.

"From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in
the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a
minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old
pre-Jan stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new.


Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating
system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what
possible nonsense could the EU impose ?.

On 13/08/2018 14:54, DerbyBorn wrote:



If the bricks are okay then surely it is just elements that need relacing?


+1.

Mind the asbestos though.

Andrew wrote:

Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating
system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what
possible nonsense could the EU impose ?.

They don't seem to use actual efficiency, rather a notional efficiency
number, which has a starting point of 30% due to losses in the the power
grid, then you gain one or more additional factors such as 7% for having
a specific type of electronic timer, 1% for open window detection or 1%
for adaptive start, and each model has to exceed 38% to be allowed to go
on sale ...

In article ,
wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found
almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their
eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on
E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing

That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a
new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

TLC's catalogue lists a number of storage heaters. Some seem to be all
singing & dancing; others look normal

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

DerbyBorn wrote:



If the bricks are okay then surely it is just elements that need
relacing?

Over 40 years I took one of these things apart, found the broken wire in the
bricks and just twisted them back together. It was dodgy, it was a long time
ago but it worked.

On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:54:56 UTC+1, DerbyBorn wrote:



If the bricks are okay then surely it is just elements that need relacing?

One of the joints or connectors inside went on my E7 heater I though it was a wasp buzzing for a while until I took the cover off, can't remmebr where exactly because I didn't want to repair it wanted it gone.

I think the new ones have a small slow fan inside that runs from normal rate rather than just the E7.

On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be)
a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing

There is sod all in them so it should be fixable.

On 13/08/2018 15:35, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:

Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating
system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what
possible nonsense could the EU impose ?.

They don't seem to use actual efficiency, rather a notional efficiency
number, which has a starting point of 30% due to losses in the the power
grid, then you gain one or more additional factors such as 7% for having
a specific type of electronic timer, 1% for open window detection or 1%
for adaptive start, and each model has to exceed 38% to be allowed to go
on sale ...

All the LOT20 'heaters' on that site seem to be a fraction of the
power of existing storage heaters.

Looks like the EU have done a 'powerful vac' and 'powerful kettle'
job on storage heaters, to avoid overloading all those windmills
once everyone outside Germany has decommissioned their coal-fired
generators.

One wonders what they are going to do to the large hadron collider
that needs two french nuclear plants just to keep those magnets
cold, and to all those MRI scanners that the NHS loves to buy ?

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:53:15 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found
almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their
eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on
E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing

That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a
new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

TLC's catalogue lists a number of storage heaters. Some seem to be all
singing & dancing; others look normal

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Then you find out that the not so singing ones are out of stock and you have to buy a £700 eco one.

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:06:41 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote:
The problem is simple ( or should be)
a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing
That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

You can still install non-LOT20 heaters if you can buy them. It's only the manufacturing of them that's banned.

http://www.hwelectric.co.uk/classic.php

probably have them if anybody does.

Owain

I have looked at this and currenly have it on favourites as I could get one. But I have to ring up. meanwhile OH is more interested in the post someone else has made about the necessary spare part.

The question now iswhether it is just the spare part and it will be fixed or if we have anything more wrong.

OH has the cover off and is testing the circuits or whatever it is he has to do.

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:35:33 PM UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:

Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating
system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what
possible nonsense could the EU impose ?.

They don't seem to use actual efficiency, rather a notional efficiency
number, which has a starting point of 30% due to losses in the the power
grid, then you gain one or more additional factors such as 7% for having
a specific type of electronic timer, 1% for open window detection or 1%
for adaptive start, and each model has to exceed 38% to be allowed to go
on sale ...

..... and it costs more than twice the old ones to buy. I am not convinced by the efficiency claims and I doubt it will be any warmer at the end of the day ( but may well lamp my daytime electricity with that fan.

I generally top up with a small convector on a very cold evening. In the bedroom I dont bother.

On Monday, 13 August 2018 19:26:57 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:35:33 PM UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:

Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating
system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what
possible nonsense could the EU impose ?.

They don't seem to use actual efficiency, rather a notional efficiency
number, which has a starting point of 30% due to losses in the the power
grid, then you gain one or more additional factors such as 7% for having
a specific type of electronic timer, 1% for open window detection or 1%
for adaptive start, and each model has to exceed 38% to be allowed to go
on sale ...

.... and it costs more than twice the old ones to buy. I am not convinced by the efficiency claims and I doubt it will be any warmer at the end of the day ( but may well lamp my daytime electricity with that fan.

I generally top up with a small convector on a very cold evening. In the bedroom I dont bother.


Can you not find what you want on ebay?
I was told the idea behind the new ones is to make them more energy efficient by using weather forecasts to work out how much heat to charge with. Whether it actually works & what the savings are or aren't I've no idea.


NT

On 13/08/2018 17:51, Andrew wrote:
Looks like the EU have done a 'powerful vac' and 'powerful kettle'
job on storage heaters, to avoid overloading all those windmills
once everyone outside Germany has decommissioned their coal-fired
generators.

Which is stupid.

A big fat thermal store you fill up when the sun is shining and the wind
is blowing is ideal to work with renewables.

(Given, of course, it will store for several days...)

Andy

Wrote in message:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:53:15 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found
almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their
eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be) a) I have a night storage heater on
E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing

That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a
new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

TLC's catalogue lists a number of storage heaters. Some seem to be all
singing & dancing; others look normal

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Then you find out that the not so singing ones are out of stock and you have to buy a £700 eco one.


Woe, woe & thrice woe...
--
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be)
a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing

That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

But
b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they brought this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I cannot find out

so
c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can switch it off via the plug switch?

None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil.

Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7.

Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi system and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want one?

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom.

I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks.

New storage heaters have a controlled heat output so you don't get heat when you don't want it.
This is done by means of a fan than wafts the stored heat out.
The fan needs an extra permanent supply (ie not off the time switch).
We have had them for decades, now it seems they are to be the only ones allowed.
There are significant savings money/energywise

I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones are.
The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better
insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the
UK the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise been
happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go wrong.
and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people with both
gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot.
I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its just
a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations.
I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andrew" wrote in message
news
On 13/08/2018 14:34, GB wrote:
On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old
version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater
replacement for the bedroom.

I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads.

"From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in
the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a
minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old pre-Jan
stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new.


Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating
system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what
possible nonsense could the EU impose ?.

So how does a slow heater make any difference. Take the kettle if it takes
longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you
would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Same goes for
room heaters.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Vir Campestris" wrote in message
news
On 13/08/2018 17:51, Andrew wrote:
Looks like the EU have done a 'powerful vac' and 'powerful kettle'
job on storage heaters, to avoid overloading all those windmills
once everyone outside Germany has decommissioned their coal-fired
generators.

Which is stupid.

A big fat thermal store you fill up when the sun is shining and the wind
is blowing is ideal to work with renewables.

(Given, of course, it will store for several days...)

Andy

Sorry I'm not convinced by this at all, unless somebody has made a miracle
material that can totally insulate the bricks, the device will always lose
heat at a low level and thus be no more efficient.

Most of my heaters are close to a standard supply as well, so one assumes a
bit of creative routing of the cable would suffice, but I hope mine continue
to function for a long time! I have two big ones and one small one in my
house and that is all it really needs.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"harry" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found
almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their
eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be)
a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It
needs replacing

That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a
new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

But
b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they brought
this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got
new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as
expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules
and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and
dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I
cannot find out

so
c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on a
night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a
second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need
that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time
socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can
switch it off via the plug switch?

None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They
just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because
there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil.

Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled
storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7.

Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi system
and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat ,
even though you might have an open window because you want one?

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version
on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the
bedroom.

I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I
will ignore the trolls, thanks.

New storage heaters have a controlled heat output so you don't get heat when
you don't want it.
This is done by means of a fan than wafts the stored heat out.
The fan needs an extra permanent supply (ie not off the time switch).
We have had them for decades, now it seems they are to be the only ones
allowed.
There are significant savings money/energywise

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 09:18:44 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

So how does a slow heater make any difference. Take the kettle if it
takes longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same
power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time.

Slight confusion of "power" and "energy" but yes if you are heating 1
l of water from 15 C to 100 C it requires a certain amount of energy.
If a 1.5 kW kettle delivers that energy in 2 minutes and 3 kW one
will do it in one.

It can probably be argued that the 3 kW is slighly more effcient than
the 1.5 kW as there is probably less radiation from the kettle in
the 1 minute to 100 C compared to 2 minutes to 100 C.

Same goes for room heaters.

Room heaters are not quite the same. They have to balance the heat
loss of the room. If their power rating is less than the heat loss
they won't keep the room warm.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
news
I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones
are. The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better
insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the
UK the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise
been happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go
wrong. and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people
with both gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot.
I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its
just a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations.
I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house.

The fan in mine is so quiet that you can't hear it.

"Andrew" wrote in message
news
On 13/08/2018 14:34, GB wrote:
On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old
version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater
replacement for the bedroom.

I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads.

"From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in
the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a
minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old
pre-Jan stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new.


Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating
system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what
possible nonsense could the EU impose ?.

Brian Gaff wrote

So how does a slow heater make any difference.

By putting heat into the house whether it needs heat or not.

Take the kettle if it takes longer to boil the water surely you have
probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater
for a shorter time.

Yes.

Same goes for room heaters.

Nope, not if it adds heat when the room doesn’t need it.

"Vir Campestris" wrote in message
news
On 13/08/2018 17:51, Andrew wrote:
Looks like the EU have done a 'powerful vac' and 'powerful kettle'
job on storage heaters, to avoid overloading all those windmills
once everyone outside Germany has decommissioned their coal-fired
generators.

Which is stupid.

A big fat thermal store you fill up when the sun is shining and the wind
is blowing is ideal to work with renewables.

(Given, of course, it will store for several days...)

Andy

Brian Gaff wrote

Sorry I'm not convinced by this at all, unless somebody has made a miracle
material that can totally insulate the bricks, the device will always lose
heat at a low level

Yes, but its obviously better if it has a fan
that only runs when the room needs heat.

and thus be no more efficient.

It clearly is more efficient if it only adds heat to
the room when the room needs to be warmer.

Most of my heaters are close to a standard supply as well, so one assumes
a bit of creative routing of the cable would suffice, but I hope mine
continue to function for a long time! I have two big ones and one small
one in my house and that is all it really needs.

I have one, but don’t use it any more. I use a heated throw instead.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 13 August 2018 14:20:51 UTC+1, wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found
almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their
eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be)
a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It
needs replacing

That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a
new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

But
b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they
brought this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would
have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three
times as expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed
the rules and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which
sings and dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my
system but I cannot find out

so
c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on
a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie
a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont
need that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day
time socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I
can switch it off via the plug switch?

None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They
just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because
there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil.

Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled
storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7.

Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi
system and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up
the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want
one?

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version
on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for
the bedroom.

I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some.
I will ignore the trolls, thanks.

New storage heaters have a controlled heat output so you don't get heat
when you don't want it.
This is done by means of a fan than wafts the stored heat out.
The fan needs an extra permanent supply (ie not off the time switch).
We have had them for decades, now it seems they are to be the only ones
allowed.
There are significant savings money/energywise

On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 06:20:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old
version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater
replacement for the bedroom.

I'm on your side with regards the bells an whistles and over
complication but I suspect these new fangled jobies have far far
better thermal insulation than a 30 or 40 year old one. This is why
they need a fan, to get the heat out...

The big problem with the old style is that they loose heat rather
quickly and all the time. So come evening, when you want the place
warm, the damn thing has run out of heat. As you know and you use
another heater (at peak rate) to keep the room warm.

A new, "properly" insulated one should still have stored heat (from
cheap rate) for the evening, mainly due to the better insulation but
also down to the control system, you can set a lower room temperature
for the day than the evening. The chances are that your peak rate use
will drop noticeably and the off peak will probably drop as well.

The second, permenantly live supply is a PITA but if it is just for
the fan/control system could just plug into the ringmain. How ever
I've got the impression from somewhere that some heater may have an
auxillary heater as well, one would have to look carefully at the
potential loadings.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Brian Gaff was thinking very hard :
I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones are.
The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better
insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the UK
the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise been
happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go wrong.
and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people with both
gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot.
I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its just
a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations.
I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house.

The little experience I had of them, was in a flat. I was out working
all day and by the time I got home, the heaters had lost much of their
heat. To be fair, they were old units, using a simple temperature
controlled flap to release the heat and a user adjustable charge stat..
I thought at the time, it needed much better insulation and much better
control of the release of heat.

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:15:35 AM UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones are.
The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better
insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the
UK the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise been
happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go wrong.
and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people with both
gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot.
I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its just
a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations.
I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house.
Brian

--
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"Andrew" wrote in message
news
On 13/08/2018 14:34, GB wrote:
On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old
version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater
replacement for the bedroom.

I think that's your best bet. That and freecycle plus local ads.

"From 1st January 2018, all local space heaters manufactured for sale in
the EU which use electricity, gas or liquid fuels must comply with a
minimum efficiency standard." -- So, unless you can find some old pre-Jan
stock somewhere, you are not going to be able to buy new.


Since the minimumand maximum efficiency of an electrical heating
system (that doesn't involve pumps, motors etc) is 100%, what
possible nonsense could the EU impose ?.

To be honest I have been happy with mine. Not just that, it has always been cheap and easy to sort them out if they went wrong - and they dont go wrong anyway. Mine are around 40 years old. They were put in before I bought the house so my estimate of age is based on the time the house was fully refurbished - somewhere between 1977 and 1984 . The models appear to have numbers from then.

I also checked the price against my mothers coal and wood burner and another member fo the families gas consumption. I seem to do better. Gas isnt cheap anymore and oil and coal are not efficient. As you say, they go wrong, they have issues with CO2 if they go wrong. Something I worry about.

I had no idea about the new regulations until I looked yesterday.

On Tuesday, 14 August 2018 10:15:10 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote

So how does a slow heater make any difference.

By putting heat into the house whether it needs heat or not.

Is this what you have along with your auto bedroom lights than turn on when you go to bed ?



Take the kettle if it takes longer to boil the water surely you have
probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater
for a shorter time.

Yes.

So less efficient .


Same goes for room heaters.

Nope, not if it adds heat when the room doesnt need it.

why would it do that ?

On 14/08/2018 10:31, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:20:22 AM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 06:20:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old
version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater
replacement for the bedroom.

I'm on your side with regards the bells an whistles and over
complication but I suspect these new fangled jobies have far far
better thermal insulation than a 30 or 40 year old one. This is why
they need a fan, to get the heat out...

The big problem with the old style is that they loose heat rather
quickly and all the time. So come evening, when you want the place
warm, the damn thing has run out of heat. As you know and you use
another heater (at peak rate) to keep the room warm.

A new, "properly" insulated one should still have stored heat (from
cheap rate) for the evening, mainly due to the better insulation but
also down to the control system, you can set a lower room temperature
for the day than the evening. The chances are that your peak rate use
will drop noticeably and the off peak will probably drop as well.

The second, permenantly live supply is a PITA but if it is just for
the fan/control system could just plug into the ringmain. How ever
I've got the impression from somewhere that some heater may have an
auxillary heater as well, one would have to look carefully at the
potential loadings.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Thanks. If I was considering buying a new storage heater for the main sitting room or dining room, I would go along with getting a new better insulated type with a fan.

However, this one is for a bedroom and I am not convinced any fan is so silent it is suitable in a bedroom or that I need it there.

Would moving the existing sitting room one to the bedroom work? Then
have a new style one in the sitting room.

I might if someone can prove the significant saving buy the newer one.... but then as someone has said, you run into all sorts of other issues like the new ones seem to have different power ratings entirely ( a bit like the new and old light bulb ratings). Suppliers seem to be suing old and new notations on this so it gets confusing.

if I buy an old style one ( and I have looked at hw site for this) , at least I know that I need a 1.7 kw heater and that is it.

Keep in mind the power figure is the rate of heat input and not the
total energy input. So 1.7kW for say 8 hours is a maximum of 13.6 kWh of
energy. It might be the room does not actually require that amount of
heat, but the storage heater was specced at that capacity to allow for
the fact that much of the heat will be dumped into the room at times
when you don't need it. Hence it needs a larger store of energy to have
any hope of having some left when you actually need it.

A heater that holds less total energy, but allows its delivery in a more
targeted way may well achieve the desired heating profile equally well.

Some also allow a top up from peek rate electricity. Obviously more
expensive to use like that on a given day, but the overall sum may
actually be favourable. Say the device needs 10kWh of heat stored to
cope with the 30 coldest days of the year, but only 8kWh for "normal"
days. Charging to only 8kWh on cheap rate all the time, and then topping
up the extra 2kWh from peak rate will actually be cheaper overall, since
you are saving 2kWh x how ever many days you need the heating on Vs the
expense of buying 60 kWh at peak price rather than e7 prices.



--
Cheers,

John.

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On 14/08/2018 10:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained on 14/08/2018 :
So how does a slow heater* make any difference. Take the kettle if it
takes longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same
power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter
time. Same goes for room heaters.

Not quite the same thing. A room heater has to have deliberate loss of
heat to warm the room. If the loss of heat occurs faster than the heat
input, then it will not adequately warm the room.

A storage heater has to have sufficient capacity to gain all the energy
it needs, its charge, within the off-peak hours it is designed for.
Unlikely, but a 300w storage heater would take ten times as long to gain
the same charge as a 3Kw version.

But you only have a few hours from about 1AM to about 7AM to
store sufficient energy to last the day.

On 14/08/2018 09:18, Brian Gaff wrote:
So how does a slow heater make any difference. Take the kettle if it takes
longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you
would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Same goes for
room heaters.
Brian

It allows you to still boil water on a shaky electric supply that can't
actually provide a full 13A 240v. Some 100v countries have permanent
electric kettles that are essentially an insulated flask with an element
in that dispenses hot water to order and run at around 50W continuously.

A room heater that isn't able to keep up with the losses from the room
will never make it warm (at least not until midsummer).

Fan heaters work better in this respect since storage heaters have a bad
habit of being way too hot at night, making a nice thin layer of very
hot air against the ceiling during the day and then being stone cold in
the evening when you would actually like some heat back out of them.

The new generation of storage heaters seem to be incredibly overpriced
and underpowered. Been looking at them for our village hall.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 13/08/2018 14:20, wrote:
I am losing the will to live. I have looked across the internet and found almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their eco agendas.

The problem is simple ( or should be)
a) I have a night storage heater on E7 that has given up the ghost. It needs replacing

That should be simple enough, I have done similar things before - get a new equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

But
b) it seems that the ruddy EU ( no the **** me off - it seems they brought this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as expensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules and now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and dances, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I cannot find out

so
c) Is it possible to get/ run one of these new LOT20 storage heaters on a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need that! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time socket - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can switch it off via the plug switch?

None of these things are being answered anywhere on the internet. They just keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because there is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil.

Has anyone any experience of fitting and using one of these new fangled storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7.

Further has anyone found a simple one that doesnt use a ruddy wi fi system and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want one?

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom.

I would be grateful for sensible replies. I am sure there will be some. I will ignore the trolls, thanks.


I think you need to seriously question if a replacement storage heater
is the answer in this case. If it is a bedroom you wish to heat why not
consider a plug-in wall mounted convector heater with a buit -in or plug
in timer. You can by one a lot cheaper than a storage heater will cost.
You can run it just for the hours the room is in use (plus preheat)

The running costs of using night storage heaters are questionable these
days as the night rate on most E7 tariffs is usually way more than half
the day rate.

For example, a 3kW storage will consume 21kWh per night on E7 at a
notional cost of 10p/kwh gives £2.10 per day. So you could run a 1kW
convector heater at full power (in practice the thermostat will cycle on
and off) for at least 10 hours @ 20p/kWh for the same cost.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 10:20:18 +0100 (BST), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 06:20:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I am currently looking at buying a second hand " refurbished" old
version on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater
replacement for the bedroom.

I'm on your side with regards the bells an whistles and over
complication but I suspect these new fangled jobies have far far
better thermal insulation than a 30 or 40 year old one. This is why
they need a fan, to get the heat out...

The big problem with the old style is that they loose heat rather
quickly and all the time. So come evening, when you want the place
warm, the damn thing has run out of heat. As you know and you use
another heater (at peak rate) to keep the room warm.

Mine's the old sort (I kept one as a back-up) and when I first tried it the
room was baking when I was out at work and cold in the evening. Stuck in a
lot more insulation and then it was just warm to the touch and I could turn
up the 'stat in the evening and get enough heat foruntil bed time.
Warning: it has TWO knobs and doesn't connect to the 'net, so not useable by
modern morons - oh, it's also 3.4kW - naughty!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 14:16:50 +0100, Tufnell Park wrote:

The running costs of using night storage heaters are questionable these
days as the night rate on most E7 tariffs is usually way more than half
the day rate.

Was going to say wrong until I checked what my tarrifs have been
since April 2013. Back then off peak was 35% of peak, my current
tarrif is 45%...

For example, a 3kW storage will consume 21kWh per night on E7 at a
notional cost of 10p/kwh gives £2.10 per day.

No, they have a maximum core temperature once that is reached they
cycle on the "input" stat. So once charged from cold they only take
what they have lost. My off peak is 6.67p/kWHr, peak 14.67p/kWHr (+5%
VAT).

So you could run a 1kW convector heater at full power (in practice the
thermostat will cycle on and off) for at least 10 hours @ 20p/kWh for
the same cost.

Hum, I feel that another section is going to get added to my
cost/tariff selector spreadsheet...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:37:11 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

A heater that holds less total energy, but allows its delivery in a more
targeted way may well achieve the desired heating profile equally well.

Agreed, at the end of the E7 period an old style storeage heater is
damn hot, almost dangerously hot and the room far too warm. Better
control of when the stored energy is released is going to reduce the
total amount consumed. "Better control" meaning higher levels of
insulation and time of day related temperature set points.

--
Cheers
Dave.