A neighbour of mine (female) has a 10 year old PP, it's having spells where the
ignition sparks every second and you can see the flame size cycling up and down
at the same time. From a thread in 2001 it could be a break in the spark lead.
However their local corgi guy is talking about a failed gas valve but
apparently he doesn't really inspire confidence. If it were mine I would have a
play, but I can see this repair getting expensive, say if the guy replaces the
valve and then the board. My gut feel is that if they can't do a "cheap" fix
she should consider a replacement boiler. Or am I being unfair to Potterton?

In article , OldScrawn
writes
A neighbour of mine (female) has a 10 year old PP, it's having spells where the
ignition sparks every second and you can see the flame size cycling up and down
at the same time. From a thread in 2001 it could be a break in the spark lead.
However their local corgi guy is talking about a failed gas valve but
apparently he doesn't really inspire confidence. If it were mine I would have a
play, but I can see this repair getting expensive, say if the guy replaces the
valve and then the board. My gut feel is that if they can't do a "cheap" fix
she should consider a replacement boiler. Or am I being unfair to Potterton?

I'd be bl**dy wary about mending Gas appliances for neighbours. Wont you
be at risk of "it was OK and didn't do something else wrong before you
touched it" and all that sorta stuff?. Apart from if anything should go
wrong otherwise.

Apart from the fabled Potterton electronics:-(...
--
Tony Sayer

In message , OldScrawn
writes
A neighbour of mine (female) has a 10 year old PP, it's having spells where the
ignition sparks every second and you can see the flame size cycling up and down
at the same time. From a thread in 2001 it could be a break in the spark lead.
However their local corgi guy is talking about a failed gas valve but
apparently he doesn't really inspire confidence. If it were mine I would have a
play, but I can see this repair getting expensive, say if the guy replaces the
valve and then the board. My gut feel is that if they can't do a "cheap" fix
she should consider a replacement boiler. Or am I being unfair to Potterton?


By "flame size going up and down", do you mean that it's variable, or
that the main gas is coming on and going off again?

I can't remember if the main valve is a two stage one, but it is
switched by a relay on the pcb, either on or off.

If it starts sparking while it's in normal running mode, the pcb should
be switching the main valve off.

Loss of flame sensing can be caused by
a) a faulty pcb
b) a break in the HT lead
c) bad earthing
d) the electrode not being in the pilot flame (e.g. the electrode tip
breaking up)

--
geoff

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:16:28 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , OldScrawn
writes
A neighbour of mine (female) has a 10 year old PP, it's having spells where the
ignition sparks every second and you can see the flame size cycling up and down
at the same time. From a thread in 2001 it could be a break in the spark lead.
However their local corgi guy is talking about a failed gas valve but
apparently he doesn't really inspire confidence. If it were mine I would have a
play, but I can see this repair getting expensive, say if the guy replaces the
valve and then the board. My gut feel is that if they can't do a "cheap" fix
she should consider a replacement boiler. Or am I being unfair to Potterton?


By "flame size going up and down", do you mean that it's variable, or
that the main gas is coming on and going off again?

I can't remember if the main valve is a two stage one, but it is
switched by a relay on the pcb, either on or off.

If it starts sparking while it's in normal running mode, the pcb should
be switching the main valve off.

Loss of flame sensing can be caused by
a) a faulty pcb
b) a break in the HT lead
c) bad earthing
d) the electrode not being in the pilot flame (e.g. the electrode tip
breaking up)

Profiles are tough and generally relaible boilers.
It is subseqent models that have got Poxi Batterton into problems.[1]
They have a two stage ignition sequence with a double gas valve unit.
Firstly the pilot gas vavle is open the sparker sparks the pilot lights
(hopefully).
Secondly the pilot flame is detected by the one and only PCB. Which turns
of the sparker and lights the main gas by opening the main gas valve.

There is no modulation it's either all on or all off.

It is possible that when the main flames come on the flame then moves out
of the way of the sensing electrode whic hthen cuts the main gas, the
pilot flame then moves back into position and the PCB open the main gas
again.

From the sypmtoms described I'd say the gas valve is not even worth
thinking about changing the PCB just possibly, a service very much what's
needed.

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the "electronics"
problems of this boiler but from what you say this doesn't seem to be
the case:-(
--
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:44:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the "electronics"
problems of this boiler but from what you say this doesn't seem to be
the case:-(

That depends on the lifetime cost to the manufacturer of leaving alone
vs. doing a design change.

Do you remember the Ford Pinto debacle? This was that if this car
was rear ended in a particular way, the doors would jam and the fuel
tank would explode, incinerating the occupants.

There were numerous incidents of this and eventually it was noticed by
IIRC a consumer action group. It turned out that Ford had known
about this for some time but had worked out that it was cheaper to pay
out compensation than modify the car.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:44:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being
installed in new build. Probably because architects have not
clocked the problems with them and are still specifiying them.


One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the
"electronics" problems of this boiler but from what you say this
doesn't seem to be the case:-(

That depends on the lifetime cost to the manufacturer of leaving alone
vs. doing a design change.

Do you remember the Ford Pinto debacle? This was that if this car
was rear ended in a particular way, the doors would jam and the fuel
tank would explode, incinerating the occupants.

There were numerous incidents of this and eventually it was noticed by
IIRC a consumer action group. It turned out that Ford had known
about this for some time but had worked out that it was cheaper to pay
out compensation than modify the car.

What about the Mini? It had an inherent fault in that the fuel filler stuck
out from the body and was within a few inches of the rear lights so in the
event of a rollover there was a strong probability that fuel could leak and
had a source of ignition as well.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

Andy Hall wrote:

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:44:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the "electronics"
problems of this boiler but from what you say this doesn't seem to be
the case:-(

That depends on the lifetime cost to the manufacturer of leaving alone
vs. doing a design change.

Do you remember the Ford Pinto debacle? This was that if this car
was rear ended in a particular way, the doors would jam and the fuel
tank would explode, incinerating the occupants.

There were numerous incidents of this and eventually it was noticed by
IIRC a consumer action group. It turned out that Ford had known
about this for some time but had worked out that it was cheaper to pay
out compensation than modify the car.


In the case of the Pinto (so wonderfully satired in one of the Naked Gun
series of films) it eventually cost Ford dearly when the "smoking gun
memo", I think it was known as, an internal document that detailed
Ford's decision became public. Courts then awarded massive compensation
payments that totally ruined Ford's cost calculations and forced them to
actually fix the fault.




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Andy Hall
writes
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:44:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the "electronics"
problems of this boiler but from what you say this doesn't seem to be
the case:-(

That depends on the lifetime cost to the manufacturer of leaving alone
vs. doing a design change.

One might have thought that those who spec boilers would have noticed
this now. I wouldn't have thought that any self respecting plumber would
fir them as replacements!...

Do you remember the Ford Pinto debacle? This was that if this car
was rear ended in a particular way, the doors would jam and the fuel
tank would explode, incinerating the occupants.

There were numerous incidents of this and eventually it was noticed by
IIRC a consumer action group. It turned out that Ford had known
about this for some time but had worked out that it was cheaper to pay
out compensation than modify the car.



Yes, disgusting!......

--
Tony Sayer

In article , James Hart
writes
Andy Hall wrote:
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:44:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being
installed in new build. Probably because architects have not
clocked the problems with them and are still specifiying them.


One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the
"electronics" problems of this boiler but from what you say this
doesn't seem to be the case:-(

That depends on the lifetime cost to the manufacturer of leaving alone
vs. doing a design change.

Do you remember the Ford Pinto debacle? This was that if this car
was rear ended in a particular way, the doors would jam and the fuel
tank would explode, incinerating the occupants.

There were numerous incidents of this and eventually it was noticed by
IIRC a consumer action group. It turned out that Ford had known
about this for some time but had worked out that it was cheaper to pay
out compensation than modify the car.

What about the Mini? It had an inherent fault in that the fuel filler stuck
out from the body and was within a few inches of the rear lights so in the
event of a rollover there was a strong probability that fuel could leak and
had a source of ignition as well.

Another death trap. Fortunately I survived a crash where that happened.
A five year old friend of my daughters didn't.

Poxy design:-(
--
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:43:30 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Andy Hall
writes
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:44:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the "electronics"
problems of this boiler but from what you say this doesn't seem to be
the case:-(

That depends on the lifetime cost to the manufacturer of leaving alone
vs. doing a design change.

One might have thought that those who spec boilers would have noticed
this now. I wouldn't have thought that any self respecting plumber would
fir them as replacements!...

Well.... the industry is conservative and Potterton continues to live
on its earlier good name.

If you've been into a plumbing/heating merchant, there are plenty of
manufacturer loyalty schemes with quite nice rewards.



Do you remember the Ford Pinto debacle? This was that if this car
was rear ended in a particular way, the doors would jam and the fuel
tank would explode, incinerating the occupants.

There were numerous incidents of this and eventually it was noticed by
IIRC a consumer action group. It turned out that Ford had known
about this for some time but had worked out that it was cheaper to pay
out compensation than modify the car.



Yes, disgusting!......

Apologies for raising what must be a difficult subject for you.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the "electronics"
problems of this boiler but from what you say this doesn't seem to be
the case:-(

That depends on the lifetime cost to the manufacturer of leaving alone
vs. doing a design change.

What does a PCB re-design cost? Pennies, I'd say.

--
*And don't start a sentence with a conjunction *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:06:17 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
One would have hoped that they have eventually sorted the "electronics"
problems of this boiler but from what you say this doesn't seem to be
the case:-(

That depends on the lifetime cost to the manufacturer of leaving alone
vs. doing a design change.

What does a PCB re-design cost? Pennies, I'd say.

... then the remanufacturing, sparing, quality control, ISO9001, EMC
and safety recertification, documentation .....

As a general rule when I did hardware design, it was reckoned that 5%
of the task was getting to a first prototype, post engineering such as
PCB layout was about another 15% and the rest were the processes to
get the thing into production and deal with lifetime issues.

Even a fairly minor component change can be a real headache.

It really is an iceberg.......




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 11:55:00 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:

Big snip for brevity

From the sypmtoms described I'd say the gas valve is not even worth
thinking about changing the PCB just possibly, a service very much what's
needed.

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


It is strangle that the Potterton profile still suffers from exploding
boiler syndrome,just like its predecessor,the potterton netaheat.

I visited one only the other week which had exploded in the night.
There wasnt much left of it worth saving.

joe

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
What does a PCB re-design cost? Pennies, I'd say.

.. then the remanufacturing, sparing, quality control, ISO9001, EMC
and safety recertification, documentation .....

Well, given that several of these weren't properly done in the first
place, and warranty claims must be considerable, I'd say it would be worth
it.

As a general rule when I did hardware design, it was reckoned that 5%
of the task was getting to a first prototype, post engineering such as
PCB layout was about another 15% and the rest were the processes to
get the thing into production and deal with lifetime issues.

Even a fairly minor component change can be a real headache.

It really is an iceberg.......

Perhaps it's just their priorities are all wrong. I never cease to be
amazed by the way makers will pare things down to the absolute minium on a
product which has perhaps the most hostile environment for electronics
found in the home.

--
*Real men don't waste their hormones growing hair

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:13:22 +0000, tarquinlinbin
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 11:55:00 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:

Big snip for brevity

From the sypmtoms described I'd say the gas valve is not even worth
thinking about changing the PCB just possibly, a service very much what's
needed.

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


It is strangle that the Potterton profile still suffers from exploding
boiler syndrome,just like its predecessor,the potterton netaheat.

I visited one only the other week which had exploded in the night.
There wasnt much left of it worth saving.

joe

What's the mechanism by which it does that?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:07:29 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
What does a PCB re-design cost? Pennies, I'd say.

.. then the remanufacturing, sparing, quality control, ISO9001, EMC
and safety recertification, documentation .....

Well, given that several of these weren't properly done in the first
place, and warranty claims must be considerable, I'd say it would be worth
it.

As a general rule when I did hardware design, it was reckoned that 5%
of the task was getting to a first prototype, post engineering such as
PCB layout was about another 15% and the rest were the processes to
get the thing into production and deal with lifetime issues.

Even a fairly minor component change can be a real headache.

It really is an iceberg.......

Perhaps it's just their priorities are all wrong. I never cease to be
amazed by the way makers will pare things down to the absolute minium on a
product which has perhaps the most hostile environment for electronics
found in the home.

Pennies count. It isn't just the electronics either.

There is the urban legend (which I think has some truth) of the days
when Plessey made televisions. I once worked with an engineer who
had worked in their design department. He would produce a correct
design and then the chief engineer would come round with his clippers,
look at the circuit diagram and start clipping components out until it
stopped working.

Geoff is probably best fixed to commenton boiler electronics, but I
suspect that it is the usual sorry tale of inadequately specified
components, inappropriate ones for the job and lack of attention to
temperature environment as high on the list..



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Pennies count. It isn't just the electronics either.

There is the urban legend (which I think has some truth) of the days
when Plessey made televisions. I once worked with an engineer who
had worked in their design department. He would produce a correct
design and then the chief engineer would come round with his clippers,
look at the circuit diagram and start clipping components out until it
stopped working.

Yes they all used to do that:-(

But this was consumer grade product.....

Geoff is probably best fixed to commenton boiler electronics, but I
suspect that it is the usual sorry tale of inadequately specified
components, inappropriate ones for the job and lack of attention to
temperature environment as high on the list..

--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Pennies count. It isn't just the electronics either.

Perhaps they would be better saved off the MD's perks. then?

There is the urban legend (which I think has some truth) of the days
when Plessey made televisions. I once worked with an engineer who
had worked in their design department. He would produce a correct
design and then the chief engineer would come round with his clippers,
look at the circuit diagram and start clipping components out until it
stopped working.

I've heard this one many times - but with the company changed to protect
the innocent. And when the factory closes due to the dreadful product, and
the sales go to overseas, it's put down to the poor British workforce...

Geoff is probably best fixed to commenton boiler electronics, but I
suspect that it is the usual sorry tale of inadequately specified
components, inappropriate ones for the job and lack of attention to
temperature environment as high on the list..

Yup. Poor soldering seems common these days though, and not just on
boilers.

--
*(over a sketch of the titanic) "The boat sank - get over it

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:38:22 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:13:22 +0000, tarquinlinbin
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 11:55:00 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:

Big snip for brevity

From the sypmtoms described I'd say the gas valve is not even worth
thinking about changing the PCB just possibly, a service very much what's
needed.

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


It is strangle that the Potterton profile still suffers from exploding
boiler syndrome,just like its predecessor,the potterton netaheat.

I visited one only the other week which had exploded in the night.
There wasnt much left of it worth saving.

joe

What's the mechanism by which it does that?


There AFAIK only two way s a boiler can explode
1) A gas explosion.
2) A steam water exlosion in the heat exchanger.

The first might be caused by a leaky gas valve the second by a _totally_
blocked heat exchanger.
I can't see why these boilers should be more prone that other makes using
similar if not identical components.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:07:29 +0000, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
What does a PCB re-design cost? Pennies, I'd say.

.. then the remanufacturing, sparing, quality control, ISO9001, EMC
and safety recertification, documentation .....

Well, given that several of these weren't properly done in the first
place, and warranty claims must be considerable, I'd say it would be worth
it.

The only boiler PCB I know of that has been totally redesigned is one of
the ones in a Baxi Barcelona. The replacement (well over £100) comes with
a new wiring harness since the board has different connections.

They must have been really desperate to do that.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:08:16 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Pennies count. It isn't just the electronics either.

Perhaps they would be better saved off the MD's perks. then?

Well no, because she needs to be rewarded for being the entrepreneur.
They miss out the "de pompes funebres" bit.


There is the urban legend (which I think has some truth) of the days
when Plessey made televisions. I once worked with an engineer who
had worked in their design department. He would produce a correct
design and then the chief engineer would come round with his clippers,
look at the circuit diagram and start clipping components out until it
stopped working.

I've heard this one many times - but with the company changed to protect
the innocent. And when the factory closes due to the dreadful product, and
the sales go to overseas, it's put down to the poor British workforce...

It comes from the same book as the old one where the little boy is
asked what he wants for Christmas and he asks for a cowboy outfit.
So his dad bought him (insert your favourite TV manufacturer or
parliamentary party,.



Geoff is probably best fixed to commenton boiler electronics, but I
suspect that it is the usual sorry tale of inadequately specified
components, inappropriate ones for the job and lack of attention to
temperature environment as high on the list..

Yup. Poor soldering seems common these days though, and not just on
boilers.


..and there's really no excuse for that at all


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:47:23 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:07:29 +0000, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
What does a PCB re-design cost? Pennies, I'd say.

.. then the remanufacturing, sparing, quality control, ISO9001, EMC
and safety recertification, documentation .....

Well, given that several of these weren't properly done in the first
place, and warranty claims must be considerable, I'd say it would be worth
it.

The only boiler PCB I know of that has been totally redesigned is one of
the ones in a Baxi Barcelona. The replacement (well over £100) comes with
a new wiring harness since the board has different connections.

They must have been really desperate to do that.

Yes and no. A radical redesign involving radical component swap out
funded by the end customer pays for the rework and keeps the
installers happy as well.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:08:16 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Pennies count. It isn't just the electronics either.

Perhaps they would be better saved off the MD's perks. then?

Well no, because she needs to be rewarded for being the entrepreneur.
They miss out the "de pompes funebres" bit.


There is the urban legend (which I think has some truth) of the days
when Plessey made televisions. I once worked with an engineer who
had worked in their design department. He would produce a correct
design and then the chief engineer would come round with his
clippers, look at the circuit diagram and start clipping components
out until it stopped working.

I've heard this one many times - but with the company changed to
protect the innocent. And when the factory closes due to the
dreadful product, and the sales go to overseas, it's put down to the
poor British workforce...

It comes from the same book as the old one where the little boy is
asked what he wants for Christmas and he asks for a cowboy outfit.
So his dad bought him (insert your favourite TV manufacturer or
parliamentary party,.

There must be a gag here somewhere, let me think, something about cowboy
outfits and dogs, ahh got it! CORGI.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

In message , Andy Hall
writes
Perhaps it's just their priorities are all wrong. I never cease to be
amazed by the way makers will pare things down to the absolute minium on a
product which has perhaps the most hostile environment for electronics
found in the home.

Pennies count. It isn't just the electronics either.

There is the urban legend (which I think has some truth) of the days
when Plessey made televisions. I once worked with an engineer who
had worked in their design department. He would produce a correct
design and then the chief engineer would come round with his clippers,
look at the circuit diagram and start clipping components out until it
stopped working.

Geoff is probably best fixed to commenton boiler electronics, but I
suspect that it is the usual sorry tale of inadequately specified
components, inappropriate ones for the job and lack of attention to
temperature environment as high on the list..


What I don't understand about counting pennies is how you can charge
about £100 for e.g. a Netaheat or Profile pcb which carries a couple of
dozen components

The worst offence which boiler pcb designers commit (IMHO) is the
direct switching of reactive loads (fans, gas valves etc) without the
use of any kind of snubber to reduce relay contact wear.

The worst offence which I see in the manufacturing process is the really
rubbish soldering, especially on Molex connectors

Of course each pcb has it's own weak points, and I have difficulty
understanding why these are quite often not addressed when they produce
a new issue of that board ... unless of course, no it can't be true,
that they don't build them to last - heaven forbid
--
geoff

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:07:29 +0000, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
What does a PCB re-design cost? Pennies, I'd say.

.. then the remanufacturing, sparing, quality control, ISO9001, EMC
and safety recertification, documentation .....

Well, given that several of these weren't properly done in the first
place, and warranty claims must be considerable, I'd say it would be worth
it.

The only boiler PCB I know of that has been totally redesigned is one of
the ones in a Baxi Barcelona. The replacement (well over £100) comes with
a new wiring harness since the board has different connections.

They must have been really desperate to do that.

The Glowworm Micron has recently been completely redesigned too (and
they don't have any stock). There are a few others for example the Maxol
Microturbo
--
geoff

In message , tarquinlinbin
writes
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 11:55:00 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:

Big snip for brevity

From the sypmtoms described I'd say the gas valve is not even worth
thinking about changing the PCB just possibly, a service very much what's
needed.

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


It is strangle that the Potterton profile still suffers from exploding
boiler syndrome,just like its predecessor,the potterton netaheat.

They don't explode, they "pre-ignite"
--
geoff

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:46:38 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , Andy Hall
writes
Perhaps it's just their priorities are all wrong. I never cease to be
amazed by the way makers will pare things down to the absolute minium on a
product which has perhaps the most hostile environment for electronics
found in the home.

Pennies count. It isn't just the electronics either.

There is the urban legend (which I think has some truth) of the days
when Plessey made televisions. I once worked with an engineer who
had worked in their design department. He would produce a correct
design and then the chief engineer would come round with his clippers,
look at the circuit diagram and start clipping components out until it
stopped working.

Geoff is probably best fixed to commenton boiler electronics, but I
suspect that it is the usual sorry tale of inadequately specified
components, inappropriate ones for the job and lack of attention to
temperature environment as high on the list..


What I don't understand about counting pennies is how you can charge
about £100 for e.g. a Netaheat or Profile pcb which carries a couple of
dozen components

Why does a dog lick its ********?



The worst offence which boiler pcb designers commit (IMHO) is the
direct switching of reactive loads (fans, gas valves etc) without the
use of any kind of snubber to reduce relay contact wear.

2-5p for that component.


The worst offence which I see in the manufacturing process is the really
rubbish soldering, especially on Molex connectors

Are they flow soldered or added afterwards by hand, typically?



Of course each pcb has it's own weak points, and I have difficulty
understanding why these are quite often not addressed when they produce
a new issue of that board ... unless of course, no it can't be true,
that they don't build them to last - heaven forbid

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
geoff wrote:
The worst offence which boiler pcb designers commit (IMHO) is the
direct switching of reactive loads (fans, gas valves etc) without the
use of any kind of snubber to reduce relay contact wear.

A diode costs what - less than 1p in bulk? Perhaps they want it to fail -
just out of warranty.

--
*Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
geoff wrote:
The worst offence which boiler pcb designers commit (IMHO) is the
direct switching of reactive loads (fans, gas valves etc) without the
use of any kind of snubber to reduce relay contact wear.

A diode costs what - less than 1p in bulk? Perhaps they want it to fail -
just out of warranty.

No, they couldn't possibly be doing that, could they ?
--
geoff

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 11:55:00 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:

Big snip for brevity

From the sypmtoms described I'd say the gas valve is not even worth
thinking about changing the PCB just possibly, a service very much what's
needed.

There is only one PCB it does 'everything'.


[1] In fact there are significant numbers of Suprimas being installed in new
build. Probably because architects have not clocked the problems with them
and are still specifiying them.


It is strangle that the Potterton profile still suffers from exploding
boiler syndrome,just like its predecessor,the potterton netaheat.

I visited one only the other week which had exploded in the night.
There wasnt much left of it worth saving.

joe

Ed Sirett typed:


The only boiler PCB I know of that has been totally redesigned is one
of the ones in a Baxi Barcelona. The replacement (well over £100)
comes with a new wiring harness since the board has different
connections.

They must have been really desperate to do that.

Bugger bums, just bought a house (for letting) with one of these fitted.
Do you know why it needed the redesign/what the usual fault was?

--
Mark's Signature Free Zone.
No Random wordily Quotations
No attempt at infantile Humour
And no Tedious Home-pages
:-)

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:40:12 +0000, Mark wrote:

Ed Sirett typed:


The only boiler PCB I know of that has been totally redesigned is one
of the ones in a Baxi Barcelona. The replacement (well over £100)
comes with a new wiring harness since the board has different
connections.

They must have been really desperate to do that.

Bugger bums, just bought a house (for letting) with one of these fitted.
Do you know why it needed the redesign/what the usual fault was?


I hope you got a discount off the purchase price equivalent to the full
cost of a replacement boiler. 8-(

It's not a combi so hopefully there's an immersion heater somewhere.

The good news is that the unit is probably young enough to qualify for a
maintenance contract with a large company who specialize in such things.
This is likely money well spent wink.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article ,
tarquinlinbin wrote:
It is strangle that the Potterton profile still suffers from exploding
boiler syndrome,just like its predecessor,the potterton netaheat.

Thought the Netaheat was a pretty reliable boiler?

--
*If you can read this, thank a teecher

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Dave Plowman wrote:
In article ,
tarquinlinbin wrote:
It is strangle that the Potterton profile still suffers from
exploding boiler syndrome,just like its predecessor,the potterton
netaheat.

Thought the Netaheat was a pretty reliable boiler?

I suppose when it explodes it's still providing heating of sorts, might be a
pain interfacing that with an optimising chronotherm though

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

Ed Sirett typed:


The only boiler PCB I know of that has been totally redesigned is
one of the ones in a Baxi Barcelona.

They must have been really desperate to do that.

Bugger bums, just bought a house (for letting) with one of these
fitted. Do you know why it needed the redesign/what the usual fault
was?



The good news is that the unit is probably young enough to qualify
for a maintenance contract with a large company who specialize in
such things.

This is likely money well spent wink.

LOL
But I would still be interested in knowing what the fault was the demanded
such drastic action.
Forewarned is forearmed

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:10:38 +0000, Mark wrote:

Ed Sirett typed:


The only boiler PCB I know of that has been totally redesigned is
one of the ones in a Baxi Barcelona.

They must have been really desperate to do that.

Bugger bums, just bought a house (for letting) with one of these
fitted. Do you know why it needed the redesign/what the usual fault
was?



The good news is that the unit is probably young enough to qualify
for a maintenance contract with a large company who specialize in
such things.

This is likely money well spent wink.

LOL
But I would still be interested in knowing what the fault was the demanded
such drastic action.
Forewarned is forearmed


We are talking here about a Barcelona. These boilers are not the greatest
of designs. I have no idea what the fault was that caused them to go for a
total redesign. The fault that caused me to have to exchange one was
because it failed to drive the combustion fan, (if I had blindly followed
the fault finding guide I would have replaced the fan).

The new board has so far continued to work (about 15 months and still
going - so far).


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Ed Sirett typed:

The good news is that the unit is probably young enough to qualify
for a maintenance contract with a large company who specialize in
such things.

This is likely money well spent wink.
We are talking here about a Barcelona. These boilers are not the
greatest of designs. I have no idea what the fault was that caused
them to go for a total redesign. The fault that caused me to have to
exchange one was because it failed to drive the combustion fan, (if I
had blindly followed the fault finding guide I would have replaced
the fan).

Thanks for the info, so far I've been very lucky with CH boilers and only
had pump/timer failures in rented houses/flats.
Which I've been able to fix myself.
Looks like I well have to line up a reliable CH engineer to handle all the
electronics on these modern contraptions.
Alternatively I may buy up all the remaining stock of non-condensing
non-elec, gravity feed boilers I can find !
probably be cheaper in the long run :-)

--
Mark