I'm installing a kitchen in a couple of weeks time and have a question.

I have to move my heater/water controller from one wall to another it has 8
wires. As I'm going to need more wire to move the box is it okay to isolate
the cable in a junction box in the ceiling void and then join the new cable
in this box?

I'd thought it to be no problem but thought I'd ask first.

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:58:08 -0000, "MattP" {add
mattspersonal before @} wrote:

I'm installing a kitchen in a couple of weeks time and have a question.

I have to move my heater/water controller from one wall to another it has 8
wires. As I'm going to need more wire to move the box is it okay to isolate
the cable in a junction box in the ceiling void and then join the new cable
in this box?

I'd thought it to be no problem but thought I'd ask first.


If it is going to be inaccessible (as this will be) then the joints
need to be crimp types and not screw terminals (as in chocolate block)



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"MattP" {add mattspersonal before @} wrote in message
...
I'm installing a kitchen in a couple of weeks time and have a question.

I have to move my heater/water controller from one wall to another it has
8
wires. As I'm going to need more wire to move the box is it okay to
isolate
the cable in a junction box in the ceiling void and then join the new
cable
in this box?

I'd thought it to be no problem but thought I'd ask first.

best to replace the cable complete, as it wil be difficult to access later
when everything is put back.
you will know the joint is there in the ceiling void, but the next person
who buys your house wont. bear in mind that you could end up in a house
where someone else had done this, imagine how ****ed off you'd be if there
was a loose connection and you couldn't find it.
rob

In message , rob
writes

"MattP" {add mattspersonal before @} wrote in message
...
I'm installing a kitchen in a couple of weeks time and have a question.

I have to move my heater/water controller from one wall to another it has
8
wires. As I'm going to need more wire to move the box is it okay to
isolate
the cable in a junction box in the ceiling void and then join the new
cable
in this box?

when everything is put back.
you will know the joint is there in the ceiling void, but the next person
who buys your house wont. bear in mind that you could end up in a house
where someone else had done this, imagine how ****ed off you'd be if there
was a loose connection and you couldn't find it.

And anyway, you can guarantee that if you did box in a junctions box it
would get a loose connection.

As someone else said, you need to put in crimped connections (though if
possible I'd replace the whole cable)
--
Chris French, Leeds

"MattP" {add mattspersonal before @} wrote in message ...
I'm installing a kitchen in a couple of weeks time and have a question.

I have to move my heater/water controller from one wall to another it has 8
wires. As I'm going to need more wire to move the box is it okay to isolate
the cable in a junction box in the ceiling void and then join the new cable
in this box?

I'd thought it to be no problem but thought I'd ask first.

So long as the JB is accesable for future inspection,then yes go ahead
making sure of good workmanship and mechanically sound connections.
Also advisble to insulation test the circuit after the described works
are carried out.

Jon.

"John Southern" wrote in message
om...
"MattP" {add mattspersonal before @} wrote in message
...
I'm installing a kitchen in a couple of weeks time and have a question.

I have to move my heater/water controller from one wall to another it
has 8
wires. As I'm going to need more wire to move the box is it okay to
isolate
the cable in a junction box in the ceiling void and then join the new
cable
in this box?

I'd thought it to be no problem but thought I'd ask first.

So long as the JB is accesable for future inspection,then yes go ahead
making sure of good workmanship and mechanically sound connections.
Also NOT advisble to insulation test the circuit after the described works
are carried out.

Jon.

Would the same prinicple apply to cables e.g. cooker and kitchen sockets?

My problem is that I have a Barrets home, and so the floorboards are made of
chipboard and the've used 6" nails to secure the boards down. It has been
impossible to lift the board for the sockets without breaking it, if I've
got to replace the whole cable that's a lot of destructive work. Plan B is
to use a router to cut around the nails and replace with screws.

Any giudance appreciated.

"copey" wrote in message
...

"John Southern" wrote in message
om...
"MattP" {add mattspersonal before @} wrote in message
...
I'm installing a kitchen in a couple of weeks time and have a
question.

I have to move my heater/water controller from one wall to another it
has 8
wires. As I'm going to need more wire to move the box is it okay to
isolate
the cable in a junction box in the ceiling void and then join the new
cable
in this box?

I'd thought it to be no problem but thought I'd ask first.

So long as the JB is accesable for future inspection,then yes go ahead
making sure of good workmanship and mechanically sound connections.
Also NOT advisble to insulation test the circuit after the described
works
are carried out.

Jon.

In article ,
chris French wrote:
And anyway, you can guarantee that if you did box in a junctions box it
would get a loose connection.

I've never had a screw connection come loose in all the years I've been
DIYing electrics. Seen it many times on 'pro' installations, though - I'd
say it's one of the main causes of faults. Perhaps 'pro' sparks are rather
limp wristed?

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
MattP {add mattspersonal before @} wrote:
My problem is that I have a Barrets home, and so the floorboards are
made of chipboard and the've used 6" nails to secure the boards down.
It has been impossible to lift the board for the sockets without
breaking it, if I've got to replace the whole cable that's a lot of
destructive work. Plan B is to use a router to cut around the nails and
replace with screws.

Trouble with chipboard flooring is the edges are T&G joined, so even if
it's screwed down it usually breaks when lifting - unless you lift the
entire floor.

--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

To be honest Dave I got out the circular saw and cut down through the T&G,
did a great job expcept that on the first cut the depth plate slipped and I
cut a 1" slot in the ceiling joist. Can't see it being a problem as it's a
20cm deep joist, however, will make good using 'sister' pieces and bolts.

I'll replace the old c.board with new and screw them down not nail gun it.

However, I don't understand why they had to use such long nails when the
upstairs hallway boards are screwed down. I've got to go through at least
another 2 boards yet.

Whadya think of the router option to cut the board away from the nails?


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
MattP {add mattspersonal before @} wrote:
My problem is that I have a Barrets home, and so the floorboards are
made of chipboard and the've used 6" nails to secure the boards down.
It has been impossible to lift the board for the sockets without
breaking it, if I've got to replace the whole cable that's a lot of
destructive work. Plan B is to use a router to cut around the nails and
replace with screws.

Trouble with chipboard flooring is the edges are T&G joined, so even if
it's screwed down it usually breaks when lifting - unless you lift the
entire floor.

--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
MattP {add mattspersonal before @} wrote:
To be honest Dave I got out the circular saw and cut down through the
T&G, did a great job expcept that on the first cut the depth plate
slipped and I cut a 1" slot in the ceiling joist. Can't see it being a
problem as it's a 20cm deep joist, however, will make good using
'sister' pieces and bolts.

Oh dear. ;-) I tend to use a jigsaw for this sort of thing, with a blade
snapped off to the maximum depth of cut I need. Slower than a circular
saw, though.

I'll replace the old c.board with new and screw them down not nail gun
it.

Absolutely. Screws don't come loose.

However, I don't understand why they had to use such long nails when the
upstairs hallway boards are screwed down. I've got to go through at
least another 2 boards yet.

I'd say they'd run out of the proper fixings. Work *must* go on...

Whadya think of the router option to cut the board away from the nails?

Personally, I'd cut traps rather than lifting whole sections, since boards
without the tongue and groove will move rather too much where they're not
supported. You can batten round the traps and get a good fixing to that.
But the main thing which ever way is to get a good rigid floor with no
creaks.

--
*Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"MattP" {add mattspersonal before @} wrote in message ...
Would the same prinicple apply to cables e.g. cooker and kitchen sockets?

My problem is that I have a Barrets home, and so the floorboards are made of
chipboard and the've used 6" nails to secure the boards down. It has been
impossible to lift the board for the sockets without breaking it, if I've
got to replace the whole cable that's a lot of destructive work. Plan B is
to use a router to cut around the nails and replace with screws.

I've seen a gizzmo for a router somewhere in a catalogue or on the web
(Screwfix? tlc? but I can't find it now) which is designed to cuts out
a neat stepped hole about 4" diameter in a chipboard floor, and also
prepares a matching plug for the hole, so when you've finished mucking
about beneath the floor you can readily fill the hole with a neat,
removable, flush-fitting hatch. Was reasonably expensive IIRC, but
I'd buy one like a shot if I had a lot of these to do.

Maybe someone here knows what I'm on about?

David

Lobster wrote:
"MattP" {add mattspersonal before @} wrote in message ...
Would the same prinicple apply to cables e.g. cooker and kitchen sockets?

My problem is that I have a Barrets home, and so the floorboards are made of
chipboard and the've used 6" nails to secure the boards down. It has been
impossible to lift the board for the sockets without breaking it, if I've
got to replace the whole cable that's a lot of destructive work. Plan B is
to use a router to cut around the nails and replace with screws.

I've seen a gizzmo for a router somewhere in a catalogue or on the web
(Screwfix? tlc? but I can't find it now) which is designed to cuts out
a neat stepped hole about 4" diameter in a chipboard floor, and also
prepares a matching plug for the hole, so when you've finished mucking
about beneath the floor you can readily fill the hole with a neat,
removable, flush-fitting hatch. Was reasonably expensive IIRC, but
I'd buy one like a shot if I had a lot of these to do.

Maybe someone here knows what I'm on about?

It's a Trend router accessory, people who have it says it's good.
What puts me off is the price of the plastic inserts you need to make
the hole in the floor into a neat trap-door.

--
Chris Green

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
chris French wrote:
And anyway, you can guarantee that if you did box in a junctions box it
would get a loose connection.

I've never had a screw connection come loose in all the years I've been
DIYing electrics. Seen it many times on 'pro' installations, though - I'd
say it's one of the main causes of faults. Perhaps 'pro' sparks are rather
limp wristed?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

I'd like to invite you to our site to put forward this interesting theory.
Oh, and what flowers would you like in hospital?
Richard.
ps. written with tongue FIRMLY in cheek. (MY tongue / MY cheek before anyone
goes for the easy shot)

On 3 Feb 2004 18:20:04 GMT, wrote:

It's a Trend router accessory, people who have it says it's good.
What puts me off is the price of the plastic inserts you need to make
the hole in the floor into a neat trap-door.

As reported on this forum recently, our very own Andy Hall has one of
these and advises that it's something worth having in your toolbag.

I'm building up to SWMBO buying me one as a surprise present. It'll be
a surprise for her

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

On 3 Feb 2004 18:20:04 GMT, wrote:

Lobster wrote:
"MattP" {add mattspersonal before @} wrote in message ...
Would the same prinicple apply to cables e.g. cooker and kitchen sockets?

My problem is that I have a Barrets home, and so the floorboards are made of
chipboard and the've used 6" nails to secure the boards down. It has been
impossible to lift the board for the sockets without breaking it, if I've
got to replace the whole cable that's a lot of destructive work. Plan B is
to use a router to cut around the nails and replace with screws.

I've seen a gizzmo for a router somewhere in a catalogue or on the web
(Screwfix? tlc? but I can't find it now) which is designed to cuts out
a neat stepped hole about 4" diameter in a chipboard floor, and also
prepares a matching plug for the hole, so when you've finished mucking
about beneath the floor you can readily fill the hole with a neat,
removable, flush-fitting hatch. Was reasonably expensive IIRC, but
I'd buy one like a shot if I had a lot of these to do.

Maybe someone here knows what I'm on about?

It's a Trend router accessory, people who have it says it's good.
What puts me off is the price of the plastic inserts you need to make
the hole in the floor into a neat trap-door.

Indeed.

The Trend Routabout. I have one that I use with one of their small
T5 routers and it does do a very good job. The hatches are neat and
don't rock, and the job is fast.

Some web sites have the inserts shown as a unit of one for £25-30.
In fact this is for a pack of ten so they are not that bad.

OK, to some extent this is razor blade marketing, but £2.50 a hole
doesn't seem completely outrageous to me.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:53:11 -0000, "Frisket"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
chris French wrote:
And anyway, you can guarantee that if you did box in a junctions box it
would get a loose connection.

I've never had a screw connection come loose in all the years I've been
DIYing electrics. Seen it many times on 'pro' installations, though - I'd
say it's one of the main causes of faults. Perhaps 'pro' sparks are rather
limp wristed?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

I'd like to invite you to our site to put forward this interesting theory.
Oh, and what flowers would you like in hospital?
Richard.
ps. written with tongue FIRMLY in cheek. (MY tongue / MY cheek before anyone
goes for the easy shot)

.... contortionists as well then :-)


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Oh dear. ;-) I tend to use a jigsaw for this sort of thing, with a blade
snapped off to the maximum depth of cut I need. Slower than a circular
saw, though.

This sounds a bit dangerous actually!

Whadya think of the router option to cut the board away from the nails?

Why not get one of these, it's on my soon to be bought list!

http://www.armeg.com/electrical-sbccablerod.php


SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:05:28 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

OK, to some extent this is razor blade marketing, but £2.50 a hole
doesn't seem completely outrageous to me.

And possibly for two reasons.

The first is that if you are selling services to others then £2.50 for
a neat hole that is created in say 10 minutes is a whole lot better
than 2 hours at premium labour rates doing it another way.

Secondly, if you are doing this in your own home, just how many of
these holes will be required?

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:18:04 +0000, PoP wrote:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:05:28 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

OK, to some extent this is razor blade marketing, but £2.50 a hole
doesn't seem completely outrageous to me.

And possibly for two reasons.

The first is that if you are selling services to others then £2.50 for
a neat hole that is created in say 10 minutes is a whole lot better
than 2 hours at premium labour rates doing it another way.

It's not even that. There isn't even the issue of setting the cutter
depth accurately because there is a ball bearing stop at the top.

It's literally a case of fitting the guide bush to the router base,
cutter in the router. Then the trammel screws to the floor with a
wood screw but free to rotate.

With my T5 router and chipboard, it will do the job in four passes
comfortably. This leaves a disk of material. You insert the ring
in the hole, invert the disc and you're done.


Secondly, if you are doing this in your own home, just how many of
these holes will be required?

Exactly. IIRC, the original product came with three rings and I
bought another pack of ten. I still have a few left.




PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Lurch wrote:
Oh dear. ;-) I tend to use a jigsaw for this sort of thing, with a blade
snapped off to the maximum depth of cut I need. Slower than a circular
saw, though.

This sounds a bit dangerous actually!

Works very well - ideal for cutting a floorboard across the middle of a
joist without risk of hitting a pipe. You don't need to even make a hole
to start it - you start with the blade horizontal and just lower it into
the board.

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
Lurch wrote:
Oh dear. ;-) I tend to use a jigsaw for this sort of thing, with a blade
snapped off to the maximum depth of cut I need. Slower than a circular
saw, though.

This sounds a bit dangerous actually!

Works very well - ideal for cutting a floorboard across the middle of a
joist without risk of hitting a pipe. You don't need to even make a hole
to start it - you start with the blade horizontal and just lower it into
the board.

Yep, i used to use a circular saw , but now use this technique with a
Jigsaw. You have a bit more control than with the circular saw.
--
Chris French, Leeds

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:53:40 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

With my T5 router and chipboard, it will do the job in four passes
comfortably. This leaves a disk of material. You insert the ring
in the hole, invert the disc and you're done.

Is it reasonable to assume that this jig will accept other types of
router? I have a Trend T9 for on-site work and I'm assuming that the
jig would work fine with that.

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

In article ,
chris French wrote:
Works very well - ideal for cutting a floorboard across the middle of a
joist without risk of hitting a pipe. You don't need to even make a hole
to start it - you start with the blade horizontal and just lower it into
the board.

Yep, i used to use a circular saw , but now use this technique with a
Jigsaw. You have a bit more control than with the circular saw.

Also, if lifting floorboards which are to be covered afterwards, you can
cut round the original nails, which you can't really do with an circular
saw. Of course if ripping T&G, a straight line might be more useful. ;-)

--
*If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:38:31 +0000, PoP wrote:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:53:40 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

With my T5 router and chipboard, it will do the job in four passes
comfortably. This leaves a disk of material. You insert the ring
in the hole, invert the disc and you're done.

Is it reasonable to assume that this jig will accept other types of
router? I have a Trend T9 for on-site work and I'm assuming that the
jig would work fine with that.

Yes it would. When I got mine, which was some time ago, I hadn't
yet bought a 1/2" router.

There's some merit in using a smaller router as you can get into
slightly tighter spaces.

There are four combinations of Routabout defined by the cutter.
This is 1/4" or 1/2" and 18mm or 22mm depth.

If you are sure you are always going to use the 1/2" router, then it
probably makes sense to get the 1/2" cutter rather than swap the
collet..

One thing I am not certain about is the effect of just having the 22mm
cutter if you then want to cut into 18mm floors. I have 22mm floors
and cutter so it didn't arise. I am pretty sure that the only
effect of cutting an 18mm floor with a 22mm cutter would be to go a
few mm into a joist if you happened to be over one, however it's
possible that the rebate on the centre disc might be wrong, causing it
to end up sitting proud of or below the surround floor. If you can
wait until the weekend, I can get the jig out and check it on an 18mm
board, or you might want to call Trend and ask.
Obviously you can buy a second cutter for the other depth but they're
about £27.

Another point I forgot to mention is that it is possible to remove the
ring after installation, so the access hole can be a touch larger than
implied by the ring size.





PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave Plowman wrote:
In article ,
MattP {add mattspersonal before @} wrote:
To be honest Dave I got out the circular saw and cut down through the
T&G, did a great job expcept that on the first cut the depth plate
slipped and I cut a 1" slot in the ceiling joist. Can't see it
being a problem as it's a 20cm deep joist, however, will make good
using 'sister' pieces and bolts.

Oh dear. ;-) I tend to use a jigsaw for this sort of thing, with a
blade snapped off to the maximum depth of cut I need. Slower than a
circular saw, though.

I'll replace the old c.board with new and screw them down not nail
gun it.

Absolutely. Screws don't come loose.


Except in junction boxes?

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 13:09:55 -0000, "R W"
wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:
In article ,
MattP {add mattspersonal before @} wrote:
To be honest Dave I got out the circular saw and cut down through the
T&G, did a great job expcept that on the first cut the depth plate
slipped and I cut a 1" slot in the ceiling joist. Can't see it
being a problem as it's a 20cm deep joist, however, will make good
using 'sister' pieces and bolts.

Oh dear. ;-) I tend to use a jigsaw for this sort of thing, with a
blade snapped off to the maximum depth of cut I need. Slower than a
circular saw, though.

I'll replace the old c.board with new and screw them down not nail
gun it.

Absolutely. Screws don't come loose.


Except in junction boxes?


Well, only ones behind walls with new tiles.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I'll replace the old c.board with new and screw them down not nail
gun it.

Absolutely. Screws don't come loose.


Except in junction boxes?


Well, only ones behind walls with new tiles.

Heh heh. I've come across poorly crimped cables, so it's not a universal
panacea. Perhaps some form of locking screw - or a double screw JB would
be more reliable?

--
*Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 13:48:32 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I'll replace the old c.board with new and screw them down not nail
gun it.

Absolutely. Screws don't come loose.

Don't believe you IMM has several loose ones.....don't he?.
ATB
Kris

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 17:39:15 +0000, Kris wrote:

Don't believe you IMM has several loose ones.....don't he?.

Err, yes I suppose so. However I assume it isn't so much an issue
because there's nothing much to hold tight.

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

Andy Hall wrote:
"MattP" wrote:

I'm installing a kitchen in a couple of weeks time and have a
question. I have to move my heater/water controller from one
wall to another it has 8 wires. As I'm going to need more
wire to move the box is it okay to isolatethe cable in a
junction box in the ceiling void and then join the new cable
in this box?

If it is going to be inaccessible (as this will be) then the joints
need to be crimp types and not screw terminals (as in chocolate block)

He could just lie a junction box under the floorboards of the
floor above and make sure that there's a screw-down panel which
can be removed for access.


J.B.

PoP wrote:

On 3 Feb 2004 18:20:04 GMT, wrote:


It's a Trend router accessory, people who have it says it's good.
What puts me off is the price of the plastic inserts you need to make
the hole in the floor into a neat trap-door.


As reported on this forum recently, our very own Andy Hall has one of
these and advises that it's something worth having in your toolbag.

I'm building up to SWMBO buying me one as a surprise present. It'll be
a surprise for her

Details he-

http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/routabout/

(got a feeling in a previous discussion on this subject someone
mentioned a cheaper source of insert rings... quick google should turn
it up)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:38:31 +0000, PoP wrote:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:53:40 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

With my T5 router and chipboard, it will do the job in four passes
comfortably. This leaves a disk of material. You insert the ring
in the hole, invert the disc and you're done.

Is it reasonable to assume that this jig will accept other types of
router? I have a Trend T9 for on-site work and I'm assuming that the
jig would work fine with that.

Yes it would. When I got mine, which was some time ago, I hadn't
yet bought a 1/2" router.

There's some merit in using a smaller router as you can get into
slightly tighter spaces.

snip

I notice in the catalogue the other day that Screwfix do something to do
a similar job, but it basically a hole saw that firs into a drill.

Instead of using the chipboard to plug the hole it uses a plastic plug.
--
Chris French, Leeds