IMM wrote:
"Toby" wrote in message
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In France or germany, to be an 'engineer' is something to be proud
of, atracting top peole to good salaries. In this countyry it means
'car mechanic' and that is about how one is regarded.
True.
How many here would actually consider the 'Eur Ing' prefix on their
business cards,
Is there such a thing?

Well that depends on what institution you belong to (no jokes in the back
please), but education, experience & training to the required level are
prerequisites. It will be of use if you need quick recognition of your
abilities in France & Germany particularly: "ah Herr Engineer Mystery, my
colleagues and I are looking forward to your presentation" at german
conferences etc. Has a regard equivalent to doctor over there.

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

"Toby" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
"Toby" wrote in message
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In France or germany, to be an 'engineer' is something to be proud
of, atracting top peole to good salaries. In this countyry it means
'car mechanic' and that is about how one is regarded.
True.
How many here would actually consider the 'Eur Ing' prefix on their
business cards,
Is there such a thing?

Well that depends on what institution you belong to (no jokes in the back
please), but education, experience & training to the required level are
prerequisites. It will be of use if you need quick recognition of your
abilities in France & Germany particularly: "ah Herr Engineer Mystery, my
colleagues and I are looking forward to your presentation" at german
conferences etc. Has a regard equivalent to doctor over there.

Do you mean doctor, as in medical doctor, rather than in science doctor?

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:55:49 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Toby" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
"Toby" wrote in message
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In France or germany, to be an 'engineer' is something to be proud
of, atracting top peole to good salaries. In this countyry it means
'car mechanic' and that is about how one is regarded.
True.
How many here would actually consider the 'Eur Ing' prefix on their
business cards,
Is there such a thing?

Well that depends on what institution you belong to (no jokes in the back
please), but education, experience & training to the required level are
prerequisites. It will be of use if you need quick recognition of your
abilities in France & Germany particularly: "ah Herr Engineer Mystery, my
colleagues and I are looking forward to your presentation" at german
conferences etc. Has a regard equivalent to doctor over there.

Do you mean doctor, as in medical doctor, rather than in science doctor?

You should know this. It doesn't really matter. The kind of
reverence that Frau Farbissina has for Dr Evil.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:08:38 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:


But it IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!

No it is the "Erics" capitalising on the "Wirtschafts Wunder" boost
they got after WW2 when we were paying for the defence of Germany and
our armies in Germany were spending money contributing to the German
economy but were a burden on our own/The Amercan's.

This attitude to planning and working is
absolutely standard in Germany! This kind of work is the norm
EVERYwhere!

Where I worked in Germany (Wildblad im Schwarzwald) the hours were as
we worked in the UK, and every afternoon at 3-00pm a trolley came
round loaded with a selection of beers (up to one litre!). Hardly
surprising they couldn't get a delivery right, or within 1 month of
the right time.

What is so amazing is that we find it amazing! We cannot

No we don't that was 1965 when Grundig was a quality brand
differentiated from the cheap mass market "Empire Made" crap we had in
the UK, but SONY was already an worldwide international brand leader

seem to get our heads around the fact that we could do EXACTLY the
same as the Germans! We could be JUST as efficient.

We *are* just as efficient. Better in some respects. Don't you know
the German shops shut at lunchtime just as the German workesr have
some time to go shopping? I won't mention universal closure on
Sundays.

They do not
possess two brains,

Correct.

additional arms, or X-ray vision.

Correct.

We and the Germans are cousins.

"Sort of" Correct

We Brits could show the world just what we can
achieve if we only set our minds to it.

No we can't. We've given up. Meanwhile the Germans are still in a
"Miss Marple" '60s time warp. Even my kids come back from school
exchange visits saying the Germans are living in a mid '60s time warp.

I'm thinking here of the
change-over in a single weekend of the GWR track from broad gauge to
standard gauge. One weekend, 4,000 men! In 1892!

And I can remember the days when BMW were a laughing stock motor bike
factory. which made the "Isetta" bubble car with the assistance of
"ISO" of Milan. And even more recently when BMW was an "Engineering
Eutopia" car manufacturer but the cars still had 6 volt batteries.
Recent BMW's are just a Turkish made Ford Taunus. :-)

An optical illusion/triumph of marketing.over common sense

We can organise
things when we want to. I repeat, we CAN and SHOULD strive far more
than we do, not just stand back in amazement. How good it would be for
our national pride and the economy for Germans to be watching a
programme on German TV showing a group of British builders
constructing a British house somewhere in Germany! And I don't mean a
Wimpey or a Barratt.


Now you are challenging me to extoll the versions of the "Prefabs" the
best of which are still standing.

MM

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:50:16 -0000, "Owain"
wrote:

"derek" wrote
| Just as *Somebody* was eating the fillet steaks during the wartime
| food rationing, *Somebody* is driving the rusty old transits.

Huf weren't driving Transits - those vans were Mercedes.

INSTW

DG

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:35:05 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:26:45 +0000, derek
wrote:

Just as *Somebody* was eating the fillet steaks during the wartime
food rationing, *Somebody* is driving the rusty old transits.

I see on the autobahns an equitable number of scabby old vehicles.

That's the German way.

I don't see the point of this rather snide comment.

This, I don't understand. My point is they must have their share of
bad old vehicles.

Are you just being a wind-up merchant?


It wouldn't change the validity of my point if I was would it?

I've worked in .de intermittently since since 1979 BTW.

I've travelled in .de on holiday by car for the last 17 years,

My point is "The German Way" is "The same way as everywhere else"
nowadays. You try getting an exhaust fixed in Cassel with a RHD car.
It's not a magical experince of smoke and mirrors, it's more a case of
taxis and jubilee clips.

DG

"derek" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:08:38 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:


But it IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!

No it is the "Erics" capitalising on the "Wirtschafts Wunder" boost
they got after WW2 when we were paying for the defence of Germany and
our armies in Germany were spending money contributing to the German
economy but were a burden on our own/The Amercan's.

This attitude to planning and working is
absolutely standard in Germany! This kind of work is the norm
EVERYwhere!

Where I worked in Germany (Wildblad im Schwarzwald) the hours were as
we worked in the UK, and every afternoon at 3-00pm a trolley came
round loaded with a selection of beers (up to one litre!). Hardly
surprising they couldn't get a delivery right, or within 1 month of
the right time.

What is so amazing is that we find it amazing! We cannot

No we don't that was 1965 when Grundig was a quality brand
differentiated from the cheap mass market "Empire Made" crap we had in
the UK, but SONY was already an worldwide international brand leader

seem to get our heads around the fact that we could do EXACTLY the
same as the Germans! We could be JUST as efficient.

We *are* just as efficient. Better in some respects. Don't you know
the German shops shut at lunchtime just as the German workesr have
some time to go shopping? I won't mention universal closure on
Sundays.

And half days on Saturdays.

They do not
possess two brains,

Correct.

additional arms, or X-ray vision.

Correct.

We and the Germans are cousins.

"Sort of" Correct

We Brits could show the world just what we can
achieve if we only set our minds to it.

No we can't. We've given up. Meanwhile the Germans are still in a
"Miss Marple" '60s time warp. Even my kids come back from school
exchange visits saying the Germans are living in a mid '60s time warp.

And what does that mean?

I'm thinking here of the
change-over in a single weekend of the GWR track from broad gauge to
standard gauge. One weekend, 4,000 men! In 1892!

And I can remember the days when BMW were a laughing stock motor bike
factory. which made the "Isetta" bubble car with the assistance of
"ISO" of Milan. And even more recently when BMW was an "Engineering
Eutopia" car manufacturer but the cars still had 6 volt batteries.
Recent BMW's are just a Turkish made Ford Taunus. :-)

An optical illusion/triumph of marketing.over common sense

We can organise
things when we want to. I repeat, we CAN and SHOULD strive far more
than we do, not just stand back in amazement. How good it would be for
our national pride and the economy for Germans to be watching a
programme on German TV showing a group of British builders
constructing a British house somewhere in Germany! And I don't mean a
Wimpey or a Barratt.

Now you are challenging me to extoll the versions of the "Prefabs" the
best of which are still standing.

And being pulled down as they are full of asbestos.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:55:49 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Toby" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
"Toby" wrote in message
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In France or germany, to be an 'engineer' is something to be proud
of, atracting top peole to good salaries. In this countyry it means
'car mechanic' and that is about how one is regarded.
True.
How many here would actually consider the 'Eur Ing' prefix on their
business cards,
Is there such a thing?

Well that depends on what institution you belong to (no jokes in the
back
please), but education, experience & training to the required level are
prerequisites. It will be of use if you need quick recognition of your
abilities in France & Germany particularly: "ah Herr Engineer Mystery,
my
colleagues and I are looking forward to your presentation" at german
conferences etc. Has a regard equivalent to doctor over there.

Do you mean doctor, as in medical doctor, rather than in science doctor?

You should know this. It doesn't really matter. The kind of
reverence that Frau Farbissina has for Dr Evil.

It is?

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:36:09 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike
Mitchell wrote:
What an amazing house!

But if the programme had been realistic they would signed the
contract for the new house and then the day before the demolition
crew moved in their existing house would have been listed g.

The good thing about Huf is that the price is fixed, so you pretty well
know
where you stand financially. Huf make house a lot cheaper than £450,000.
You can lay the slab yourself, omit the plumbing and wiring and others
bits
and do them yourself saving a ton of money.

Hey, that IS interesting! I wonder how cheaply a Huf Haus could be
built for. I was not particularly enamoured with the overall 'look' of
the house, but more with the utmost attention to detail and quality. I
would be satisfied if a number of British builders had been watching
and would come away from the programme with a burning urge to do
better with their own products. I believe we tolerate far too much
skimping and cheap and tatty workmanship than is either fair to us or
good for posterity and the repuation of the country.

MM

SEE:
http://www.futureenergies.com/article.php?sid=75

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:20:20 -0000, "Capitol"
wrote:

3) It's a tax increase, so you can pay politicians more money!

And not only that, it's a planned future tax increase. Just for once
Herr Brown is thinking ahead, and he's figured out a way of imposing a
tax increase on students ahead of time.

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:53:38 -0000, Colin Wilson
wrote:

Elsewhere (uk.legal I think) it was revealed that the pass mark for one
particular subject was about 12% IIRC, and about 40% got you an A

I understand the pass mark for C&G2381 (16th edition wiring regs) is
40%, and that everyone passes. If you think about it you'd get 25%
just by ticking "A" for each of the 60 questions, so assuming there's
20 easy questions which you can get right without thinking you would
be on 33% - just tick the A's for the remaining 40 questions and you
are in.

Kinda worrying though that we've got sparkies wandering around the
country with 60% lack of knowledge

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:19:21 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

I think it's highly possible that graduates in future could take their
degree, enjoy the leaving party, and book a one-way ticket to
somewhere else for twenty-five years, after which the debt is
cancelled.

I've already told my kids to do just that. It will also give my wife
and I a place to visit on holiday each year.

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 07:26:20 +0000, PoP wrote:

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:53:38 -0000, Colin Wilson
wrote:

Elsewhere (uk.legal I think) it was revealed that the pass mark for one
particular subject was about 12% IIRC, and about 40% got you an A

I understand the pass mark for C&G2381 (16th edition wiring regs) is
40%, and that everyone passes. If you think about it you'd get 25%
just by ticking "A" for each of the 60 questions, so assuming there's
20 easy questions which you can get right without thinking you would
be on 33% - just tick the A's for the remaining 40 questions and you
are in.

Kinda worrying though that we've got sparkies wandering around the
country with 60% lack of knowledge


No, don't worry about it. As long as they are card carrying NICEIC
members there won't be a problem.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Huge
writes
John Rumm writes:
Mike Mitchell wrote:

What an amazing house! Since I once lived in Germany (for many years)

I kind of felt it would be a bit like living in a museam - lots of
"show" but not quite "home". Still they looked prety pleased with it -
and the nice plot of land they had made all the difference to it as well.

The nice plot of land made all the difference. You wouldn't want to live in a
house like that where passersby could look in.

- Or where the local scrotes would take pleasure in throwing a paving
stone through it. An office building I used to work in had tinted double
glazed aluminium windows facing south. Occasionally they would crack and
would takes 3 months to get a replacement from the continent
--
Andrew

Neil Jones wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Hugely energy inefficient, all that glass tho.



I was wondering about that. In passing, Kevin mentioned that the house
was "super insulated" or something like that - but there didn't seem
much scope for that in their design.



I am sure they insualted what they could, but the best glass is three to
6 times as bad as regulation wall insulation.


Neil

In article , IMM
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Also the political correctness of having a target of 50% of the
population "going to a university".

Political correctness has nothing to do with it. The country is turning to
a high tech economy. The government has to prepare for this. So the other
50%, if it ever gets that high, who do not go to higher education shall be
involved in the basic skills we all know and need. That 50% is a lot of
people.


All the high-tech stuff is going to India, China, Malaysia, Germany, US
All the cars/trucks are made abroad (bar specialised low-volume)
What are all those degree 'qualified' people going to do ?.
--
Andrew

Andy Hall wrote:

Again, a cultural
attitude shift is needed such that these are recognized as of equal
value to "academic" university courses whilst being substantially
different in their content and intent.


I think that that is the essence.


Old Jewsish joke

"Come in meet my family, this is my eldest sone Elias, He is such a boy.
He is a concert pianist and travels all over the world..And this is mty
second son, Noah. What a boy. He is a brain surgeon., I am the prodest
momma in Golder Green..and this is my third son. What can I say -
Thomas, he is a tailor. But he feeds the whole family!"

Colin wrote:

In Germany they do not have BCOs, the builder is educated and qualified

and

certified. he self certifies the build. It works. In this country, we
have an attitude that all workers are cowboys and have a layer to check
their work.


How does that work with DIY projects? Do the Germans have to get a qualified
builder in to certify the work?



In germany, you don't do DIY much. Certainly no th electrcal or plumbing
kind. Why should you? You can get a hghly skilled man in who can do it
in one quarer the time you could to a proper standrad, for not very much.
And you have adequate income as an intelligent professional, to pay him
to do it.

Not that I like Germany much as a place to live.



Colin

In article , derek
writes
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:46:34 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:32:49 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
What an amazing house! Since I once lived in Germany (for many years)
and am always ready to support the Germans against a lot of the
criticism from British xenophobia, how good it was to see a crack team
of ordinary German workers demonstrate how super-efficient they are.
As the client said, we should feel ashamed that both the cement lorry
and the crane were incredibly late, typical of our often slapdash
approach to commercial enterprises.

But those brand new Huf vans! I'm pretty sure they were purchased by
Huf especially for the show - and why not?

No they were not. That us how Huf do it.

Also does not surprise me one bit. In Hamburg, at least, everything
looks expensive, new, clean, and cared for. That's the German way.


Just as *Somebody* was eating the fillet steaks during the wartime
food rationing, *Somebody* is driving the rusty old transits.

I see on the autobahns an equitable number of scabby old vehicles.
Being driven by 'asylum seekers' and illegal immigrants (mostly).
Middle-class Germans are all driving Passats

That's the German way.

DG

--
Andrew

"IMM" wrote in message


You don't have to have all the glass. Insulated wall panels can be fitted.

Which is after all, all that a Tudor Timber frame was.

Glass does allow the price to drop considerably as it is cheaper than
bricks and mortar. Modern glass manufacture and today's tech in other
areas have put the old worries about glass well away.

The builders were far better organised than the TV crew too so, howzat
for incompetence? I liked the attention to detail at the end. Washing
their vans. To be clean makes the journey home so much nicer.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In article , Owain owain41276@
stirlingcity.co.uk writes
"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| How good it would be for our national pride and the economy
| for Germans to be watching a programme on German TV showing
| a group of British builders constructing a British house
| somewhere in Germany! And I don't mean a Wimpey or a Barratt.

I think they did get The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers in Germany.

No, it was featured on great comedy sitcoms last weekend, they only made
one series and the Germans took all *except* for the obvious one.
Owain



--
Andrew

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message

I believe we tolerate far too much
skimping and cheap and tatty workmanship than is either fair to us or
good for posterity and the repuation of the country.

What reputation since we gave the empire away and resolved to wipe our
own arses we have never been right. My question is how long must we put
up with your lazy posting? Running through all that trash to get to the
next button is a pita.

(Bear that in mind next time you start throwing things.)


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Julian Fowler wrote:


I believe that some Media Studies courses have, in fact, significant
academic content, and that MS graduates actually have a surprisingly
high success rate in gaining graduate-level employment. Its more
damaging, I think, that universities are offering courses in technical
subject to which students are admitted with qualifications and
capabilities totally unmatched to the subject -- resulting in a
"dumbing down" of those courses (since the universities cannot afford
to have either high dropout rates or a public perception of numbers
failures at degree level). Hence, for example, students being able to
gain degrees in "computer scince" that leave them at best equiped to
undertake relatively menial tasks in IT infrastructure maintenance or
perform first-line tech support in a call centre.



Indeed. I employed a graduate from an Indian university in electronic
engineering.

It ws patently obvious within a day that she had never used a soldering
iron in her life.

She ended up more or less as a prodction line rework and test engineer.
Nowhere near as qualified as the Hatfield polytechnic sandwich students
we had, one of whom is now running a very successful wlectrical
installation company.

I have emplyed three o four hatfield poly people. Very well trained
practical intelligent people. Infinitely more useful than a comp sci grad.

Thats what we need - peple who know one end of a sldering iron from teh
other, who are familiar with industrail standrds and practices, and who
have been taught to do practically useful things. Not people burdened
down with half understood theory, all of which can be acquired later if
ever necessary - who have never done anything of practical use in their
lives...


Absolutely -- I fail to understand the obsession of successive
governments that there is something *wrong* with being elitist with
respect to academic ability and intelligence -- if the same criteria
were applied to sport, for example, would we see demands that 50% of
the population should be playing for a Premiership football team. Or,
in the arts, that 50% of the population should be playing in a major
orchestra or be a published novelist ...


Its a simple matter of teh facts. Rynaiar has laid down te gauntlet vis
a vis disabled people. Whaich is preferbale, a disabled guy has to pay
36 quid to use a wheelchair, or everyone pay an extra 50p on their fare?

Fare enuff, I say. It costs money to make special treatment for special people.

One has to balance that with the overall social desirability of having that happen.


We cold require every aircraft landing in teh UK be equpped with
sufficient technology as to allow it to be flown by a mentally subnormal
paraplegic. Ther are those in the disabled lobby who would contest that
any other course is unfair discrimination.

From a certain perspective, they are right.

The COST of so doing tho would simply burden th erest of society with a
huge and unacceptable taxaton regime.

I happen to think you are right. It is not POSSIBLE to NOT discriminate
on many many grounds against people who for one reason or another are
naturally less suited to do certain things than others. Legislation
wshold confine itself to making sure thay have SOME opportuniy, not the
SAME opprtunity.

In other words, you can't make it fair, so stop wasting money trying.
Just concentate on making it better. Whe making it more fair makes it
worse - i.e. down to the fantasy level of feeding all intelligent people
drugs, and removing the limbs of the able bodied and crippling their
spines....yup. That is now FAIR. Its also manifestly WORSE all round.

This current government is on that fantasy track.








They should offer the best education to the
best and most able students. To do anything else will fail those most
able students, and devalue the reputation of those that have graduated
before them, as well as the reputation of the university.


Just as wholesale tinkering with the secondary education system led to
good grammar schools, once available to all within a local authority
area, to go private denying access to all but those able to afford to
pay their fees, there is now a good chance that within a generation we
will see Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Edinburgh, and others removing
themselves from the public sector, and setting fee levels comparable
with the Ivy League colleges in the US (with which they would then be
competing for the able students of the affluent).


If the government could loose its fixation on universities as the only
way to achieve further / higher education and training then they would
have a much better chance of achieving a useful result for all, without
saddling large quantities of the young populas with intolerable debt
burdens to meet the ever expanding cost of providing education of a
diminishing value.


Couldn't agree more.

Julian

and for IMM's benefit, you can use the following to save yourself some
typing:

snip drivel

Owain wrote:


Even the traditional skilled manual occupations are becoming much more
technical. Most of the construction of that Huf House wasn't what we would
traditionally call building, it was precision fabrication and assembly, not
the sort of work that can be carried out by the average British gibbon with
NVQ Level 1 in Pushing A Wheelbarrow.


Indeed, to raise the standards of Britsh building would be to render
huge quantitoes of shovel leaners and weheelbarrow pushres - not t
mention temporary traffic signal operators - unemployable, and this rase
the specter of mass unemployment again.

I mean, what chance would IMM have at a real job?

No wonder he is Laber to the core...


The real purpose of dumbing down the education system is to produce
Votahs whose only chance of anything is as a public servant doing a make
believe job and utterly beholden to the taxpayer to stay alive. :-)




Owain

Mike Mitchell wrote:

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:46:18 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:


In article , Mike
Mitchell wrote:

If that is true, I salute Prescott for trying. But the cowboys
could be restrained very easily and quickly if only their
clients would withhold their money and not buy the cowboys'
shoddy products. When a few companies go out of business for
lack of customers, others will start to take note.

That requires (a) a freeing up of the planning system - greater
supply = greater choice; and (b) more discerning customers. It
seems to be generally accepted that houses sell on the
appearance of the kitchen and bathroom: almost no one cares
about issues of real quality.


That's because the British, being so isolated (psychologically as well
as geographically), simply are unaware of the kind of quality which is
taken for granted in much of Europe and beyond.



Conversely, muy sister purchased some 'cheap units' in germany when we
deicded to revamp my ageing mothers kitchen in 200. They are shabbier
than the worts B & Q trash, the plumbing fitments were non standard to
UK plumbing, and the worktops of inferior quality.

You CAN get good prices on decent stuff in teh UK, just not at the sheds
mostly.


you CAN get utter crap in Germany and France, that is if anything worse
than the UK.

My house, about twice the size of the Huf Haus, built by cowboys and
some decent carpenters in a very inneficient manner, still cost about
the same. It took nearly two years to do it, which is a disgrace and a
total reflection on the so called builder who started it, and my own
desire to finish it myself,prpoperly, slowly and carefully, after I
fired him.

its not so trendy, its very traditional, but its worth somewhere between
700k and a million.

I would not expect to sell that huf haus for more than 600k on that
plot. It probably does NOT represent value for money in resale terms,
tho the couple in it are obviously pleased with it, and it went up fast.

Time and time agian I have looked at getting structures prefabricated
elsewhere and installing them. In most cases it simply does not offer
any savings except in overall project timescales, agains two skilled
blokes chipping away and nailing.

The cost of the factory, saws, and the requirements to keep it loaded
raise the price of pre-fabbing to equal the two fully occupied self
employed blokes. I tried it with an ok prefab timber frame. Same price
or slightly more. I tried it with an oak styaricase. Same price, or
slightly more. Only winows and doors made sense. and the last time they
made the doors as well. Costing it out including fitting, against the
pre-fabbed ones - no ruddy difference again.

IMM wrote:

"Capitol" wrote in message
...

IMM wrote in message ...

No proof of this.


My experience in industry is that this has already happened. The chance of
engineers having a sound understanding of design and analysis has become
much worse in the last 10 years. Good people IME come from a relatively
small number of old established universities and polytechnics who still

have

rigorous and high teaching standards. A few come through on basic high
innate ability from the dross institutions. Contrary to IMM's beliefs, the
Oxbridge engineering graduates I've come across have all had outstanding
intellect and ability. Can't speak for the arts lot though.
I'll always hire the graduates who can think, sadly many can't.


How do you know they can think?



Is very simple. You give them a test, and watch what they do.

It's been done with monkeys, why not humans?

You put the banana under a flower pot, and see if they lift it up. This
is taken as evidence of the ability to imagine the unseen banana under
the flowerpot, and formulate a plan of action to get to it.

Applied to comp sci graduates from un snotty unis the usual response is
'thats not fair, you didn't tell us, and the government ought to tell
us, that its possible to put bananas under a flower pot', followed by a
claim for constructive dismissal and discrimination against the
terminally stupid.

"Michael McNeil" wrote in message
news:76914bef5da3c8facf7c5faa6b41ac32.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...
"IMM" wrote in message


You don't have to have all the glass. Insulated wall panels can be
fitted.

Which is after all, all that a Tudor Timber frame was.

Glass does allow the price to drop considerably as it is cheaper than
bricks and mortar. Modern glass manufacture and today's tech in other
areas have put the old worries about glass well away.

The builders were far better organised than the TV crew too so, howzat
for incompetence? I liked the attention to detail at the end. Washing
their vans. To be clean makes the journey home so much nicer.

The in-fill insulted walls panels are most likely cheaper than glass, also
vastly increasing the U values. There is no bricks and mortar used.

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:a79b478230a0a2efaf2b5473295de400.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message

I believe we tolerate far too much
skimping and cheap and tatty workmanship than is either fair to us or
good for posterity and the repuation of the country.

What reputation since we gave the empire away and resolved to wipe our
own arses we have never been right.

Yes, no blacks to do it eh.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
In article , Huge
writes
John Rumm writes:
Mike Mitchell wrote:

What an amazing house! Since I once lived in Germany (for many years)

I kind of felt it would be a bit like living in a museam - lots of
"show" but not quite "home". Still they looked prety pleased with it -
and the nice plot of land they had made all the difference to it as
well.

The nice plot of land made all the difference. You wouldn't want to live
in a
house like that where passersby could look in.

- Or where the local scrotes would take pleasure in throwing a paving
stone through it. An office building I used to work in had tinted double
glazed aluminium windows facing south. Occasionally they would crack and
would takes 3 months to get a replacement from the continent

Pilkington K are quicker., as St. Helens is quite near, and probably cheaper
too.

"Andrew" wrote in message
news
In article , IMM
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Also the political correctness of having a target of 50% of the
population "going to a university".

Political correctness has nothing to do with it. The country is turning
to
a high tech economy. The government has to prepare for this. So the
other
50%, if it ever gets that high, who do not go to higher education shall
be
involved in the basic skills we all know and need. That 50% is a lot of
people.


All the high-tech stuff is going to India, China, Malaysia, Germany, US

You mean low grade programming.

All the cars/trucks are made abroad (bar specialised low-volume)
What are all those degree 'qualified' people going to do ?.

We now have a massive service industry.

In article , IMM
writes

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
In article , Huge
writes
John Rumm writes:
Mike Mitchell wrote:

What an amazing house! Since I once lived in Germany (for many years)

I kind of felt it would be a bit like living in a museam - lots of
"show" but not quite "home". Still they looked prety pleased with it -
and the nice plot of land they had made all the difference to it as
well.

The nice plot of land made all the difference. You wouldn't want to live
in a
house like that where passersby could look in.

- Or where the local scrotes would take pleasure in throwing a paving
stone through it. An office building I used to work in had tinted double
glazed aluminium windows facing south. Occasionally they would crack and
would takes 3 months to get a replacement from the continent

Pilkington K are quicker., as St. Helens is quite near, and probably cheaper
too.


Pilkington don't make windows !, they just supply the glass. And St.
Helens isn't near Croydon anyway. I did say tinted glass, so to replace
with the same tint you have to go back to original maker (Belgium).
--
Andrew

In article , IMM
writes

"Andrew" wrote in message
news
In article , IMM
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Also the political correctness of having a target of 50% of the
population "going to a university".

Political correctness has nothing to do with it. The country is turning
to
a high tech economy. The government has to prepare for this. So the
other
50%, if it ever gets that high, who do not go to higher education shall
be
involved in the basic skills we all know and need. That 50% is a lot of
people.


All the high-tech stuff is going to India, China, Malaysia, Germany, US

You mean low grade programming.

All the cars/trucks are made abroad (bar specialised low-volume)
What are all those degree 'qualified' people going to do ?.

We now have a massive service industry.


So all these graduates will need degrees in miss-selling (mortgages),
spotting-shifty-characters (security guard), hygiene (fast food sales)
or practical-stupidity (B&Q)
--
Andrew

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
In article , IMM
writes

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
In article , Huge
writes
John Rumm writes:
Mike Mitchell wrote:

What an amazing house! Since I once lived in Germany (for many
years)

I kind of felt it would be a bit like living in a museam - lots of
"show" but not quite "home". Still they looked prety pleased with
it -
and the nice plot of land they had made all the difference to it as
well.

The nice plot of land made all the difference. You wouldn't want to
live
in a
house like that where passersby could look in.

- Or where the local scrotes would take pleasure in throwing a paving
stone through it. An office building I used to work in had tinted
double
glazed aluminium windows facing south. Occasionally they would crack
and
would takes 3 months to get a replacement from the continent

Pilkington K are quicker., as St. Helens is quite near, and probably
cheaper
too.

Pilkington don't make windows !, they just supply the glass. And St.
Helens isn't near Croydon anyway. I did say tinted glass, so to replace
with the same tint you have to go back to original maker (Belgium).

The moral of the story is buy local. Belgium is not local.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:54:32 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Pilkington K are quicker., as St. Helens is quite near, and probably
cheaper
too.

Pilkington don't make windows !, they just supply the glass. And St.
Helens isn't near Croydon anyway. I did say tinted glass, so to replace
with the same tint you have to go back to original maker (Belgium).

The moral of the story is buy local. Belgium is not local.


Actually it is. From where I am, and I don't live in Kent, Belgium is
about 140 miles. St Helens is 210 miles. In terms of time, it's about
the same......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:13:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

You put the banana under a flower pot, and see if they lift it up. This
is taken as evidence of the ability to imagine the unseen banana under
the flowerpot, and formulate a plan of action to get to it.

Are you suggesting that IMM would be knowledgeable enough to lift the
flowerpot?

I think you are more likely to get 3 hours worth of explanation about
how he doesn't like bananas!

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:54:32 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Pilkington K are quicker., as St. Helens is quite near, and probably
cheaper
too.

Pilkington don't make windows !, they just supply the glass. And St.
Helens isn't near Croydon anyway. I did say tinted glass, so to replace
with the same tint you have to go back to original maker (Belgium).

The moral of the story is buy local. Belgium is not local.


Actually it is. From where I am, and I don't live in Kent, Belgium is
about 140 miles. St Helens is 210 miles. In terms of time, it's about
the same......

Behave!

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:13:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

You put the banana under a flower pot, and see if they lift it up. This
is taken as evidence of the ability to imagine the unseen banana under
the flowerpot, and formulate a plan of action to get to it.

Are you suggesting that IMM would be knowledgeable enough to lift the
flowerpot?

LOL, you should script write the Vicar of Dibley, such fun.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:53:51 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:54:32 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Pilkington K are quicker., as St. Helens is quite near, and probably
cheaper
too.

Pilkington don't make windows !, they just supply the glass. And St.
Helens isn't near Croydon anyway. I did say tinted glass, so to replace
with the same tint you have to go back to original maker (Belgium).

The moral of the story is buy local. Belgium is not local.


Actually it is. From where I am, and I don't live in Kent, Belgium is
about 140 miles. St Helens is 210 miles. In terms of time, it's about
the same......

Behave!

I am. The point is that it is just as easy to get things shipped from
Belgium, or frankly anywhere else in Europe.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:46:20 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message

I believe we tolerate far too much
skimping and cheap and tatty workmanship than is either fair to us or
good for posterity and the repuation of the country.

What reputation since we gave the empire away and resolved to wipe our
own arses we have never been right. My question is how long must we put
up with your lazy posting? Running through all that trash to get to the
next button is a pita.

(Bear that in mind next time you start throwing things.)

Eh?!!

MM

On 30 Jan 2004 20:01:39 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Mike Mitchell writes:
On 29 Jan 2004 14:16:37 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

John Rumm writes:
Mike Mitchell wrote:

What an amazing house! Since I once lived in Germany (for many years)

I kind of felt it would be a bit like living in a museam - lots of
"show" but not quite "home". Still they looked prety pleased with it -
and the nice plot of land they had made all the difference to it as well.

The nice plot of land made all the difference. You wouldn't want to live in a
house like that where passersby could look in.

Why on earth not?!!!!

Because I don't.

Ah, but you said "You wouldn't want to...etc". If you had meant
yourself, why not phrase the response correctly?

MM