How come that kitchen only cost £6000 ? The standard price for fitting
a kitchen in London is around £2000 and it looked like they had used
the kitchen supplier's fitters for the job.

In any event, given all those wall units, and island unit, and fitted
appliances, and wooden work surfaces, wouldn't the cost of them alone
have been more than £6000 even from one of the cheapest suppliers like
B&Q ?

Ted Woodley wrote:
How come that kitchen only cost £6000 ? The standard price for fitting
a kitchen in London is around £2000 and it looked like they had used
the kitchen supplier's fitters for the job.

In any event, given all those wall units, and island unit, and fitted
appliances, and wooden work surfaces, wouldn't the cost of them alone
have been more than £6000 even from one of the cheapest suppliers like
B&Q ?

Remember that all the plumbing/ electric's / tiling went under a different
category, I've just gone through the process so had a keen eye on the
kitchen as well, I think the stated price was £6.8, which seems about right.
The appliances were zanussi (same as ours) which for hood, hob, oven,
dishwasher, fridge, freezer ~ 1.8K, worktop ~ 1k, fitting ~2k, which leaves
2k for units which seems about right (similar kitchen and ours were 1.8k).

okay I've just spotted a flaw in the above sink n taps ~ 300quid (and
plinths etc), 6.8k may be a bit tight but as they had done this before
albeit in pubs, maybe they benefited from some heavy discounting.


Jon

Maybe. I've just been through it too. You are right that discounts
cloud the picture - if I'd been them I'd have made sure the kitchen
vendor knew it would be featured heavily on a C4 TV programme - that
would probably reduce the price nicely.

I got a good price by:

1) Getting the kitchen company to do a free design and give me their
"best price" for the materials and fitting as a package. This featured
30% discounts (so-called) and the assurance "it is impossible to get a
lower price"

2) I then took the design to my own builder and offered him the same
installation fee. He took the design to a different branch of the same
kitchen company and he obtained another 10-15% "trade" discount over
and above what I had been quoted for the materials.

Result: A good price and a fitter who would also handle laying a new
floor and all the peripheral stuff that kitchen company fitters won't
(officially) do. .

Ted Woodley wrote:

How come that kitchen only cost £6000 ? The standard price for fitting
a kitchen in London is around £2000 and it looked like they had used
the kitchen supplier's fitters for the job.

In any event, given all those wall units, and island unit, and fitted
appliances, and wooden work surfaces, wouldn't the cost of them alone
have been more than £6000 even from one of the cheapest suppliers like
B&Q ?

I ask the same question every time I see property ladder and it was even
worse on Million Pound Property Experiment.

Subject: Last night's "Property Ladder": A Question
From: Anthony James
Date: 14/01/2004 19:13 GMT Standard Time
Message-id:

Ted Woodley wrote:

How come that kitchen only cost £6000 ? The standard price for fitting
a kitchen in London is around £2000 and it looked like they had used
the kitchen supplier's fitters for the job.

In any event, given all those wall units, and island unit, and fitted
appliances, and wooden work surfaces, wouldn't the cost of them alone
have been more than £6000 even from one of the cheapest suppliers like
B&Q ?

I ask the same question every time I see property ladder and it was even
worse on Million Pound Property Experiment.

"Just for TV" discounts I suspect, I too watched this episode and was staggered
at what they could do for the money, were they getting any of the materials for
free I asked myself, I'm sure they were, and who wanted to pay £535000 for a
house with 1 bathroom???

On 14 Jan 2004 06:32:00 -0800, (Ted Woodley)
wrote:

Maybe. I've just been through it too. You are right that discounts
cloud the picture - if I'd been them I'd have made sure the kitchen
vendor knew it would be featured heavily on a C4 TV programme - that
would probably reduce the price nicely.

I got a good price by:

1) Getting the kitchen company to do a free design and give me their
"best price" for the materials and fitting as a package. This featured
30% discounts (so-called) and the assurance "it is impossible to get a
lower price"

2) I then took the design to my own builder and offered him the same
installation fee. He took the design to a different branch of the same
kitchen company and he obtained another 10-15% "trade" discount over
and above what I had been quoted for the materials.

Result: A good price and a fitter who would also handle laying a new
floor and all the peripheral stuff that kitchen company fitters won't
(officially) do. .

Why don't more people, especially those in this ng, build their own
kitchen from scratch? It isn't rocket science, and all the ready-made
kitchens are basically chipboard and lots of it. I reckon fitted
kitchens are one of the biggest rip-offs in the home refurbishing
business.

MM

Mike Mitchell wrote:

On 14 Jan 2004 06:32:00 -0800, (Ted Woodley)
wrote:


Maybe. I've just been through it too. You are right that discounts
cloud the picture - if I'd been them I'd have made sure the kitchen
vendor knew it would be featured heavily on a C4 TV programme - that
would probably reduce the price nicely.

I got a good price by:

1) Getting the kitchen company to do a free design and give me their
"best price" for the materials and fitting as a package. This featured
30% discounts (so-called) and the assurance "it is impossible to get a
lower price"

2) I then took the design to my own builder and offered him the same
installation fee. He took the design to a different branch of the same
kitchen company and he obtained another 10-15% "trade" discount over
and above what I had been quoted for the materials.

Result: A good price and a fitter who would also handle laying a new
floor and all the peripheral stuff that kitchen company fitters won't
(officially) do. .


Why don't more people, especially those in this ng, build their own
kitchen from scratch? It isn't rocket science, and all the ready-made
kitchens are basically chipboard and lots of it. I reckon fitted
kitchens are one of the biggest rip-offs in the home refurbishing
business.



Tme mate. It take AGES to carpeneter it all up.


MM

Time mate. It take AGES to carpeneter it all up.


MM


Excatly. And add in the time needed to go back and forward to the
kitchen supplier during the day to chase-up, exchange and collect
wrong/missing parts (5 times in my case, which my own fitter handled)

ojunk (take away nojunk) wrote in message ...
Subject: Last night's "Property Ladder": A Question
From: Anthony James
Date: 14/01/2004 19:13 GMT Standard Time
Message-id:

Ted Woodley wrote:

How come that kitchen only cost £6000 ? The standard price for fitting
a kitchen in London is around £2000 and it looked like they had used
the kitchen supplier's fitters for the job.

In any event, given all those wall units, and island unit, and fitted
appliances, and wooden work surfaces, wouldn't the cost of them alone
have been more than £6000 even from one of the cheapest suppliers like
B&Q ?

I ask the same question every time I see property ladder and it was even
worse on Million Pound Property Experiment.

"Just for TV" discounts I suspect, I too watched this episode and was staggered
at what they could do for the money, were they getting any of the materials for
free I asked myself, I'm sure they were, and who wanted to pay £535000 for a
house with 1 bathroom???

In another group it came out that the MPPE girls got a whole load of
stuff for nothing. eg in the final house they got all the home
network/lighting controllers/AV system/plasma screens etc. for
nothing. Some of the companies who donated the equipment and labour
were a bit upset because they were told that their philanthropy (it
was for charridee, after all) would be mentioned and thanked on the
show. It wasn't.

This came out from some custom installer trade rag, so it's quite
possible that "Bathroom and Kitchen Installer Times" or "The Amtico
Herald" have similar stories.

I know a couple of people who have had relatives on the relocation
shows - there are a whole load of details that conveniently don't make
it onto the screen.

Take anything you see on any of these shows with a pinch of salt. It's
entertainment, after all, not a training video.

Neil

Neil Jones wrote:

In another group it came out that the MPPE girls got a whole load of
stuff for nothing. eg in the final house they got all the home
network/lighting controllers/AV system/plasma screens etc. for
nothing. Some of the companies who donated the equipment and labour
were a bit upset because they were told that their philanthropy (it
was for charridee, after all) would be mentioned and thanked on the
show. It wasn't.

There are very strict rules about that sort of thing - you can't simply
'buy' a recommendation on TV. I noticed that the Ch4 website has all
the supplier details for Grand Designs for example.
http://tinyurl.com/3yrer for last night's repeat.
MPPE's website is similar
http://www.bbc.co.uk/homes/millionpo...ctsheets.shtml

It's acceptable to credit on the web but if everyone who supplied
anything to these property shows got a mention they would turn into a
big infomercial - you get into big trouble over product placement.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:50:36 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Tme mate. It take AGES to carpeneter it all up.

I reckon a local carpenter with a decent workshop could dimension and
fit 20 panels of chipboard in about a week. I reckon it would take me
about four weeks (i.e. without a decent workshop).

Not that I used chipboard though! (I used proper wood.)

MM

"Anthony James" wrote in message ...
Neil Jones wrote:

In another group it came out that the MPPE girls got a whole load of
stuff for nothing. eg in the final house they got all the home
network/lighting controllers/AV system/plasma screens etc. for
nothing. Some of the companies who donated the equipment and labour
were a bit upset because they were told that their philanthropy (it
was for charridee, after all) would be mentioned and thanked on the
show. It wasn't.

There are very strict rules about that sort of thing - you can't simply
'buy' a recommendation on TV.

I think you've misinterepreted what I way saying. They donated
equipment and time, but no thanks were given, nor mention made. I
don't mean "Thanks to John from XYZ for the plasma screen" etc. - just
a general mention. The implication was that the girls had to fork out
for all of that lot, when they did not.

I noticed that the Ch4 website has all
the supplier details for Grand Designs for example.
http://tinyurl.com/3yrer for last night's repeat.
MPPE's website is similar
http://www.bbc.co.uk/homes/millionpo...ctsheets.shtml

This is by no means comprehensive, though. The source I saw said:-

Multi Room Audio System
Systemline S4.4 multi room audio system donated by QED
Denon TU-260L tuner (all Denon products donated by Hayden Labs/denon)
Denon DCM 280 5 disc CD player
KEF ceiling speakers in Bedrooms 1 & 2, Bathroom 2, Living room,
Dining Room and Garden
System installed by Smartcomm

Cinema System
Relysis RP4205 42” plasma screen
Denon AVR2803 AV receiver
Denon DVD 1400 DVD player
Mission FS1 surround sound speaker system
Philips Pronto and docking station donated by SMC
Cinema installed by Sound Ideas
Philips Pronto programmed by Graham’s Hi-Fi

Lighting Control for Living Room and Dining Room Areas
1 Leax 12 channel dimming system
Donated by Leax Controls, installed by site electricians

Intruder Alarm
Scantronic 8136 based system giving whole house protection
Donated by Cooper Security
Installed by Midnight Security

Access System
BPT Nmova system
Donated by BPT Security Systems
Entry system installed by Midnight Security

Data Network
Hub donated by D&T Electronics
Installed by D&T Electronics and Smartcomm

Telephone Network
Installed by D&T Electronics and Smartcomm

TV Distribution
Loft box TV distribution system and aerials donated by SCC
International
Installed by SCC International

Structured Cabling
All cable donated by Raydex
Installed by site electricians

Low Voltage sockets and plates
Donated by MK (MK Edge range)

All installation, design and project management labour was donated
free of charge


It's acceptable to credit on the web but if everyone who supplied
anything to these property shows got a mention they would turn into a
big infomercial - you get into big trouble over product placement.


That't not my point at all. If they say "We spent £20k on this house
and added £50k to the value" when in fact what they mean is "We spent
£20k on this house, and were given £40k of discounts and freebies, but
only added £50k to the value" it put a somewhat different light on the
project.

Neil

PS apologies for screwing up the threading

Neil Jones wrote:


I think you've misinterepreted what I way saying. They donated
equipment and time, but no thanks were given, nor mention made. I
don't mean "Thanks to John from XYZ for the plasma screen" etc. - just
a general mention. The implication was that the girls had to fork out
for all of that lot, when they did not.
difficult!

This is by no means comprehensive, though. The source I saw said:-
snip
All installation, design and project management labour was donated
free of charge
snip

I think the suppliers were naive thinking that they'd be properly
credited. the only people who get significant publicity out of any of
these property shows are the architects (who always seem to be some kind
of friend of the people developing). I've never seen much credit given
to anyone else and i'm sure most come out of it feeling they've been
screwed.

That't not my point at all. If they say "We spent £20k on this house
and added £50k to the value" when in fact what they mean is "We spent
£20k on this house, and were given £40k of discounts and freebies, but
only added £50k to the value" it put a somewhat different light on the
project.
Ah, but now we're onto the show being fundamentally dishonest! No
dispute there. Even the final round up with Nigel over Xmas glossed
over the timescale, overlaps and significant costs that didnt seem to be
counted everywhere.

Look at the advice on the website:
"Don't Nest - Invest!
These days, millions of people own their own homes, but why are they
nesting when they could be investing? An upsurge in the real estate
market has born witness to the fact that there is some serious money to
be made. Consider this examples; a colleague of ours who bought a two
bedroom garden flat in Fulham some two years back for £190K and sold it
recently for well in excess of £300K. Quite. And the work required to
see this upturn? Hold on to your seats guys, because here comes the
answer; NOTHING! The property market did all the hard work. Wow!"

That's not property development ladies. Fulham is hardly an up and
coming area - it's been expensive for years and hasnt increased relative
to the places around it. All that does is say houses are more expensive
than they were.

In article ,
Anthony James wrote:
An upsurge in the real estate market has born witness to
the fact that there is some serious money to be made.
^^^^^^^^^^
Future tense?

Someone should remind them about the "past performance is not
necessarily a guide to the future" caveat. Though it has to be
said that most "experts" seem to say "sell" long before the top
of the market and "buy" when the recovery is well under way

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"Anthony James" wrote
| Look at the advice on the website:
| "Don't Nest - Invest!
| These days, millions of people own their own homes, but why are
| they nesting when they could be investing? An upsurge in the
| real estate market has born witness to the fact that there
| is some serious money to be made. Consider this examples;
| a colleague of ours who bought a two bedroom garden flat
| in Fulham some two years back for £190K and sold it recently
| for well in excess of £300K. Quite. And the work required to
| see this upturn? Hold on to your seats guys, because here
| comes the answer; NOTHING! The property market did all the
| hard work. Wow!"
| That's not property development ladies. Fulham is hardly an
| up and coming area - it's been expensive for years and hasnt
| increased relative to the places around it. All that does
| is say houses are more expensive than they were.

And that, therefore, is not in property terms return on investment. You
start with a 2 bed flat and at the end of it you still have a 2 bed flat. If
you sell that 2 bed flat all you are going to be able to afford to buy is
another 2 bed flat. Regardless of the £££ the property has not increased in
value relative to other property. It's not investment, it's inflation.

The only way to make money out of a property is to do it up so that, less
costs fees and taxes, it rises faster than the market.

Owain

Mike Mitchell wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:50:36 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Tme mate. It take AGES to carpeneter it all up.


I reckon a local carpenter with a decent workshop could dimension and
fit 20 panels of chipboard in about a week. I reckon it would take me
about four weeks (i.e. without a decent workshop).


Ys, and fisnih them all off with laminate, and fir little legs and
drawer slides etc etc.

These mass prduced units are, if you get decent ones at decent cost,
little more expensibve than you can buy teh parts for.

Snd a week of chippie of any caliber is near enough 750 quid these days.



Not that I used chipboard though! (I used proper wood.)

MM

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:26:03 +0000, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:50:36 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Tme mate. It take AGES to carpeneter it all up.

I reckon a local carpenter with a decent workshop could dimension and
fit 20 panels of chipboard in about a week. I reckon it would take me
about four weeks (i.e. without a decent workshop).

Not that I used chipboard though! (I used proper wood.)

Solid wood carcases ?

WOW !

Or perhaps you used a different man made board, like ply. Total
overkill if you did.

Chipboard is a perfect material for the manufacture of kitchen
carcases, Flat, stable, ready dimensioned, easily machined etc.

It is much maligned due to its inappropriate use and by those who
like to demonstrate their ignorance.

Incidentally carpenters don't make kitchen cabinets. They don't have
the equipment or the experience. Their function is generally totally
different and all the more valuable when put to the correct use.

Paul Mc Cann

snip



Why don't more people, especially those in this ng, build their own
kitchen from scratch? It isn't rocket science, and all the ready-made
kitchens are basically chipboard and lots of it. I reckon fitted
kitchens are one of the biggest rip-offs in the home refurbishing
business.


snip


More ignorance.

Kitchen carcase making is a highly competitive business and the units
are produced in very large quantities such that the average small
workshop couldn't begin to compete on price.

Similarily with the doors. Again produced by a myriad of specialist
manufacturers at very keen rates for the run of the mill stuff.

The real expertise, IMHO, in fitted kitchens is shown by the kitchen
fitters, tilers etc. A good kitchen fitter can make a crap kitchen
look decent while a cowboy can make even a Mile kitchen look terrible
to the trained eye.

I've hung a few wall cabinets in my time and there are skills to it
just like every other trade.

Ditto with counter tops.

I'm not saying it is beyond the average DIYers competence just that it
is not something to be taken on lightly if one wants the proper job
done.


Paul Mc Cann

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:08:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Snd a week of chippie of any caliber is near enough 750 quid these days.

While folks are spending upwards of 4 grand on chipboard that's
packaged up in nice, expensive cardboard boxes!

MM

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:22:34 +0000, Paul Mc Cann
wrote:

Or perhaps you used a different man made board, like ply. Total
overkill if you did.

Beech, mainly.

MM

Mike Mitchell wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:08:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Snd a week of chippie of any caliber is near enough 750 quid these days.


While folks are spending upwards of 4 grand on chipboard that's
packaged up in nice, expensive cardboard boxes!


No. I paid about 2 grand for a VERY big kichen inclusding soliad oak tops.

And THEN paudf thee carpenters 750 quid for a couple of days to help me
fit the tricky bits :-)



MM