On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 18:11:42 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message

So what did you do.
I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

Yes I know, but I didn't have the tools to do it or the time.


There are a few things like pouring a massive great concrete
slab where it isnt possible for one person to do it themselves,
but there aren't that many of those situations with houses.

there are plenty where it's so much easity to have a 2nd pair of hands.

In message , John
Rumm writes
If you think DIY wastes materials, you should see the way some of the
commercial builders operate... I have seen complete pallets of unopened
materials loaded into skips at the end of the job as they have no way
to transport or store the unused materials. Site hordings made from
hundreds of sheets of WBP ply simply burnt on site etc.


Not all of it goes to waste. The previous owner of my house worked for
one of the larger building contractors, and when I moved in, there was a
large pile of second hand MDF (slightly trimmed down 8x4 15mm sheets)
that had clearly been used as temporary partitioning during a
refurbishment job (the stickers on it made it fairly clear where). It
has made building bookshelves a very cheap pastime.


Adrian
--
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DIY Forum or Google Groups, please be aware this is NOT a forum, and
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For a better method of access, please see:

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In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Only one totally out of touch would think you'd
get a competent repair tech for the minimum wage.

Only a terminal ****wit such as yourself wouldn't have
noticed that someone working for themselves is quite
capable of being a competent repair tech and now that
so many choose to just buy a new one, may well not
earn the minimum wage with some jobs.

Self employed. Wage. Doesn't compute.

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Johnny B Good wrote:

I did! It was a Tesco 3KW plastic jug kettle bought several years ago
for 12 quid less the fiver voucher (almost identical to the Cookworks
Kettle - White 3KW jug we bought in our local Argos store this afternoon,
also for 12 quid less a penny).

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/9098415.htm

The original repair, just over a year ago, involved gluing the wishbone
shaped plastic operating lever back together using thin paxolin splints
with a 2 part epoxy resin glue. It just seemed a disgraceful failure mode
for the sake of not paying the attention to the detail it deserved in its
design (sharp 45 degree bends instead of organic curves to avoid stress
concentration mediated failure - it was just begging to fail).

If it had been an element failure, I wouldn't have bothered trying to
repair it but since it was just a stupid failure amenable to a glue
repair, I repaired it and got another 12 months, possibly longer, before
my repair effort finally wore out a just few months ago.

This time I used a half mm drill and a couple of 8mm lengths of
stainless steel wire to beef up the second glue repair. Unfortunately,
this started acting up again just a few days ago and before I could have
yet another go, SWMBI decided it was time for a new kettle, hence the
visit to Argos today (actually, yesterday as I type this).

Actually, despite the replacement being almost identical in shape to the
black Tesco kettle (the base plates were interchangeable), the subtle
changes seem to have improved the fillability via the spout and also the
pouring action (plus, it's not in need of a replacement spout filter) and
the lid opens up more fully so the extra expense of yet another
replacement kettle did offer some additional benefits over the old one.

However, if I care to take a look at the operating lever linkage, I
doubt I'll see any improvement in its design. I guess I'd best wait for
its one year warranty to expire before taking it apart to "Fix It Before
it Breaks". I'm of the opinion that the saying, "If it aint broke, don't
fix it." is just plain bull****, The saying, "A stitch in time saves
nine." seems more appropriate these days.

Often, close inspection will reveal that a lot of this stuff is already
broken by design and a timely 'repair' (or "Stich in time...") will save
it breaking prematurely in relation to components more vital to the
gadget's primary function, in this case, the 3KW flat plate element.

Redesigning this plastic part so it outlasts the element is unlikely to
add more than a penny to the retail price of the finished product over
the lifetime of its production run. There's really no excuse for such
shabby design and it's an issue that the greens ought to be addressing -
it's more than just electric kettles that exhibit this sort of
shortcoming.

I have had a Panasonic bread maker for some time.

The first part to fail was the plastic catch for the dispenser
tray, so I fashioned a metal replacement, which was partially
successful.

When the rather abrasive seeded mix I use eventually wore off the
coating on blade and pan, it was better value to get a complete
new unit from ebay.

When the second dispenser latch failed, I came across

http://www.shapeways.com/model/181321/panasonic-sd253-breadmaker-dispenser-latch.html?li=productBox-search

Which is just the job. You'd think Panasonic could have done this
themselves.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 18:26:16 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 11:43, Bill Wright wrote:
On 23/03/2016 09:51, RJH wrote:

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single household tool
proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

Just an ideologically left-wing way of putting the toolhire companies
out of business.

Not even sure it would do that. Its a nice idea, but its questionable
how well it can work in reality. I can see that it will make available a
large pool of low quality cheap tools. (let's face it, if you are buying
top quality kit, are you likely to lend it to just anyone without having
a reasonable idea that they will treat it well and return it in good
condition?)

I remember many years ago at an amateur theatre seeing someone rummaging
in my tool box. "What are you looking for?" "A chisel." Ok, I had a
couple in quite good condition - "So what do you need it for?" "I need
to open tin of paint"

*Shudder*

It's why I hate letting SWMBO in the workshop (but she wouldn't do *that*).

whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
RJH wrote
Bill Wright wrote

In the interests of the conservation of materials and
energy, should not DIY, especially the repair of goods,
be a priority for the environmental movement?

I do, but it needs working at.

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single
household tool proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

DIY on its own as it stands probably wastes more than it saves.

Also, skill sharing. IMHO DIY gets bodged because the DIYer
doesn't have the time/experience to get up to speed. It often
takes me three or four times to get things even remotely right,

if it take you 4 times longer I can only assume you do it for fun. ;-)

So why don't people get pros in... the answer is usually cost.

I do it myself because I get a better result because
the time doesn't cost me anything and I can do
whatever it takes to get the best result in the end.

Well I have a job so it doesnt always make sense to DIY as
to me my time is worth money even if I didn't have a job.

Your time isnt worth money when you do the DIY in the
evenings or on the weekends when you aren't working.

The most you can validly claim is that you would
rather do something else like veg out in front of
the TV or down the pub etc.

And if you don't have a job, you time isnt worth anything
when you would just do something else instead like veg
out in front of the TV or read the paper etc.

Some will spend hours in the garden pottering
about, I havent been in mine this year so far.

Same with work on the car etc.

Like your advice to get a pet put down is to buy a stun gun
on ebay use it and then resell it where as I'd prefer to take
the pet to the RSPCA where they'll do it for noithing or a
mall donation which you don't really have to make.

I'm not into parasiting on other people like that.

I think my way is better.

More fool you with DIY.

With all of the marmalade, relish, beer, spirits, house,
car, aircraft maintenance, computers, appliance repair,
vegy growing etc etc etc I get a MUCH better result
DIYing it than paying someone else to do it for me.

With some stuff like the heart stent, skin cancers,
dentistry, glasses etc I get a better result paying
someone to do it than I can do myself.

whereas some things seem more natural. So share skills:

https://www.impossible.com

(don't know anything about them, but does
seem to organise the principle of skill sharing)

Really , just seemed like an expensive place to shop.

£70 for an ipad case ! that's even more than Aple charge !

http://shop.impossible.com/collectio...hose-ipad-case

And then there's the issue of putting trades people out of work.

Not just trades peolpe but what of all those economic migrants looking
for work or ayslum seekers who don't want benifits but want to work. :-)

whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote

So what did you do.
I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

Yes I know, but I didn't have the tools to do it

Cost a lot less to buy them than to pay someone else to do it all.

or the time.

Bull****.

There are a few things like pouring a massive great concrete
slab where it isnt possible for one person to do it themselves,
but there aren't that many of those situations with houses.

there are plenty where it's so much easity to have a 2nd pair of hands.

There aren't actually all that many. And one obvious approach
with those is to help a mate with those that are, and have him
help you with yours without that costing you a cent.

My ****ing great 8'x8' patio doors are just a little too big
and a little too heavy to do by yourself. Easy enough to get
the door out by yourself but they are just a bit too big and
heavy to get them back by yourself easily. So I get a mate
of mine who lives just around the corner to give me a hand
putting it back and help him with his computer problems.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Only one totally out of touch would think you'd
get a competent repair tech for the minimum wage.

Only a terminal ****wit such as yourself wouldn't have
noticed that someone working for themselves is quite
capable of being a competent repair tech and now that
so many choose to just buy a new one, may well not
earn the minimum wage with some jobs.

Self employed. Wage. Doesn't compute.

The absolute vast bulk of those doing repair work
on domestic appliances are self employed, ****wit.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
With some stuff like the heart stent, skin cancers,
dentistry, glasses etc I get a better result paying
someone to do it than I can do myself.

You need to get a refund from your psychiatrist. Urgently.

--
*Being healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Only one totally out of touch would think you'd
get a competent repair tech for the minimum wage.

Only a terminal ****wit such as yourself wouldn't have
noticed that someone working for themselves is quite
capable of being a competent repair tech and now that
so many choose to just buy a new one, may well not
earn the minimum wage with some jobs.

Self employed. Wage. Doesn't compute.

The absolute vast bulk of those doing repair work
on domestic appliances are self employed, ****wit.

And the self employed don't get wages. A fundamental principle of being
self emplowed.

--
*The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Only one totally out of touch would think you'd
get a competent repair tech for the minimum wage.

Only a terminal ****wit such as yourself wouldn't have
noticed that someone working for themselves is quite
capable of being a competent repair tech and now that
so many choose to just buy a new one, may well not
earn the minimum wage with some jobs.

Self employed. Wage. Doesn't compute.

The absolute vast bulk of those doing repair work
on domestic appliances are self employed, ****wit.

And the self employed don't get wages.

They get less than a minimum wage would get them for that repair, ****wit.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
The absolute vast bulk of those doing repair work on domestic
appliances are self employed, ****wit.

And the self employed don't get wages.

They get less than a minimum wage would get them for that repair,
****wit.

You asked all of them Wodney? Or could it be you're merely bull****ting?
Again?

--
*I did a theatrical performance about puns. It was a play on words.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 16:48:48 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:

With all of the marmalade, relish, beer, spirits, house,
car, aircraft maintenance, computers, appliance repair,
vegy growing etc etc etc I get a MUCH better result
DIYing it than paying someone else to do it for me.

I'm never flying again.


NT

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 20:51:00 UTC, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account. DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most likely
uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Today I fixed a microwave. Insulation on HT wires had broken down. Patched it up, all done in about 20 minutes. It would cost at least £20 to replace, probably more, so that's £60+ per hour. And it saved me time, it would take longer to find/buy/collect one, then dispose of the old one.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 09:06:29 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/03/16 19:40, ARW wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Have a pal who is into 'green' Replaced his Mini which he'd bought new
and
had done few miles (9,000 in 3 years) with an electric Smart car.


Now was that a Mini or a BMW?

Lol! I've always thought that BMW's use of "Mini" for their monstrosity
should be considered an infringement under the Trades Description Act.
And, as far as I can see, with each revised model they are getting
bigger and bigger.

Mind you, have you seen a Fiat 500 recently?!

In fairness if they copied the original it would be a death trap.


I know but Doug looks well.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Mini.jpg



--
Adam

wrote
Rod Speed wrote

With all of the marmalade, relish, beer, spirits, house,
car, aircraft maintenance, computers, appliance repair,
vegy growing etc etc etc I get a MUCH better result
DIYing it than paying someone else to do it for me.

I'm never flying again.

Great, the last thing we need is scum like you.

On 24/03/2016 13:27, Adrian wrote:
In message , John
Rumm writes
If you think DIY wastes materials, you should see the way some of the
commercial builders operate... I have seen complete pallets of
unopened materials loaded into skips at the end of the job as they
have no way to transport or store the unused materials. Site hordings
made from hundreds of sheets of WBP ply simply burnt on site etc.


Not all of it goes to waste. The previous owner of my house worked for
one of the larger building contractors, and when I moved in, there was a
large pile of second hand MDF (slightly trimmed down 8x4 15mm sheets)
that had clearly been used as temporary partitioning during a
refurbishment job (the stickers on it made it fairly clear where). It
has made building bookshelves a very cheap pastime.

Indeed - if you can be in the right place at the right time, there can
be a bonanza of free materials if they people running the site are
amenable. I have a mate with a lockup full of ply and OSB from such an
encounter!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:25:23 +0000, Chris J Dixon wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

I did! It was a Tesco 3KW plastic jug kettle bought several years ago
for 12 quid less the fiver voucher (almost identical to the Cookworks
Kettle - White 3KW jug we bought in our local Argos store this
afternoon,

====snipped tale of kettle repair====

Redesigning this plastic part so it outlasts the element is unlikely to
add more than a penny to the retail price of the finished product over
the lifetime of its production run. There's really no excuse for such
shabby design and it's an issue that the greens ought to be addressing -
it's more than just electric kettles that exhibit this sort of
shortcoming.

I have had a Panasonic bread maker for some time.

The first part to fail was the plastic catch for the dispenser tray, so
I fashioned a metal replacement, which was partially successful.

When the rather abrasive seeded mix I use eventually wore off the
coating on blade and pan, it was better value to get a complete new unit
from ebay.

When the second dispenser latch failed, I came across

http://www.shapeways.com/model/18132...53-breadmaker-
dispenser-latch.html?li=productBox-search

Which is just the job. You'd think Panasonic could have done this
themselves.

The cycnic in me informs me that this is just a 'failsafe' way of
building in 'planned obsolescence' It's the home computer equivalent of
Microsoft's Cockamaimee Pagefile default settings in windows designed to
accelerate "System Senility" by aggravating the effects of file system
fragmentation due to normal file writing activities further aggravated by
the endless file churn from the never ending stream of windows updates
and fixes.

Microsoft's partnership deals with the PC hardware manufacturers,
effectively a cartel and informally known as "Wintel" on account of the
major chip supplier being Intel, benefited both parties in boosting
sales. Obviously, wintel would like to sell as much product as possible
and this pagefile trick was Microsoft's 'failsafe' contribution to
shortening the upgrade cycle to drive such an increase in sales.

Now that the use of SSDs in place of HDDs has become prevalent, the
effects of fragmentation have all but completely disappeared, neatly
sabotaging the cockamaimee pagefile settings effect on system
performance. I've no doubt MSFT have alternative plans in their latest
windows 10 to effecting such a desirable steady decline in system
performance so as to keep the upgrade cycle artificially shortened to
persuade the nicely conditioned consumers to carry on servicing the
desires of wintel.

The neat thing about the pagefile stunt as far as MSFT were concerned
was that it offered an almost zero cost remedy should they be forced to
backpedal on this artificial ageing strategy for whatever reason (eg, a
competitor product that didn't exhibit such a failing or a PC computers
equivilent of "Ralph Nader" blowing the whistle on such a sneaky trick).

As it happened, MSFT's trick was never embarrassingly exposed in the
mass media so they were able to continue this ruse for over two decades.
Part of the reason for this success was that they offered the end users
pagefile settings options to completely eliminate this particular effect,
neatly silencing any outcries from technically competent users who would
more likely feel they'd "gotten one over" on "The Dumb Consumers"
reinforcing their (justifiable) sense of smugness.

Manufacturers of white goods such as kettles and breadmakers, otoh,
don't have quite so cheap a "Backpedal" option as "Wintel"(tm). The best
they can do is pick on a cheap part as their built in weak component,
preferably one that only costs a few pennies at most and is easily
replaced in a modestly equipped "Warranties Repair shop" manned by
relatively cheap labour should they have seriously miscalculated on the
maximum lifetime of the weak part and find themselves swamped with
warranty returns.

Assuming no such miscalculation, the relatively few warranty returns
would normally be handled by simply dipping into their reserves of spare
inventory of brand new goods set aside for just such warranty purposes.
Resorting to actual repair of faulty goods only becomes the more economic
solution to servicing warranty obligations when they've seriously
miscalculated the planned failure rates of the cheap to replace component
elected to sustain sales of the product in question.

There are at least two reasons why the element in a modern jug kettle
remains the most reliable component. The first being that it is the most
expensive part, the second being that it's the most difficult to design
in a limited life time intended to satisfy the minimum warranty period
requirement without it exhibiting a dramatic and possibly hazardous
failure mode. Indeed, it may actually cost more to manufacture a shorter
lived element than a conventionally designed one.

The quieter the failure mode, the better it is for the manufacturer. The
"It simply stopped working." report by aggrieved consumers is far less
newsworthy than the "It went bang! and tripped all the house electrics,
endangering my dear old grandmother's oxygen supply." type of report.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that such inexpensive
"Throwaway" appliances are invariably let down by apparent penny pinching
on inexpensive plastic components. The penny pinching to reduce
manufacturing costs is a myth designed to deflect the consumers' thinking
away from the real purpose of such 'penny pinching' which is to provide a
minimal risk method of maintaining a steady demand for replacement
appliances.

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good Wrote in message:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:25:23 +0000, Chris J Dixon wrote:
-search

The cycnic in me informs me that this is just a 'failsafe' way of
building in 'planned obsolescence' It's the home computer equivalent of
Microsoft's Cockamaimee Pagefile default settings in windows designed to
accelerate "System Senility" by aggravating the effects of file system
fragmentation due to normal file writing activities further aggravated by
the endless file churn from the never ending stream of windows updates
and fixes.

Microsoft's partnership deals with the PC hardware manufacturers,
effectively a cartel and informally known as "Wintel" on account of the
major chip supplier being Intel, benefited both parties in boosting
sales. Obviously, wintel would like to sell as much product as possible
and this pagefile trick was Microsoft's 'failsafe' contribution to
shortening the upgrade cycle to drive such an increase in sales.
on such a sneaky trick).

snip JBG paranoia

As it happened, MSFT's trick was never embarrassingly exposed in the
mass media so they were able to continue this ruse for over two decades.
Part of the reason for this success was that they offered the end users
pagefile settings options to completely eliminate this particular effect,
neatly silencing any outcries from technically competent users who would
more likely feel they'd "gotten one over" on "The Dumb Consumers"
reinforcing their (justifiable) sense of smugness.
..


Funny they should introduce automatic defragmentation in Windows 7
then ( if not before, can't remember now) which would rather seem
to defeat this cunning plan. It seems to work well enough as if I
ever check (rarely) one of my machines it seems to be only
slightly fragmented.

--
Johnny B Good



--
--
Chris French


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 21:26:56 +0000 (GMT+00:00), Chris French
wrote:

Johnny B Good Wrote in message:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:25:23 +0000, Chris J Dixon wrote:
-search

The cycnic in me informs me that this is just a 'failsafe' way of
building in 'planned obsolescence' It's the home computer equivalent of
Microsoft's Cockamaimee Pagefile default settings in windows designed to
accelerate "System Senility" by aggravating the effects of file system
fragmentation due to normal file writing activities further aggravated by
the endless file churn from the never ending stream of windows updates
and fixes.

Microsoft's partnership deals with the PC hardware manufacturers,
effectively a cartel and informally known as "Wintel" on account of the
major chip supplier being Intel, benefited both parties in boosting
sales. Obviously, wintel would like to sell as much product as possible
and this pagefile trick was Microsoft's 'failsafe' contribution to
shortening the upgrade cycle to drive such an increase in sales.
on such a sneaky trick).

snip JBG paranoia

As it happened, MSFT's trick was never embarrassingly exposed in the
mass media so they were able to continue this ruse for over two decades.
Part of the reason for this success was that they offered the end users
pagefile settings options to completely eliminate this particular effect,
neatly silencing any outcries from technically competent users who would
more likely feel they'd "gotten one over" on "The Dumb Consumers"
reinforcing their (justifiable) sense of smugness.
.


Funny they should introduce automatic defragmentation in Windows 7
then ( if not before, can't remember now) which would rather seem
to defeat this cunning plan. It seems to work well enough as if I
ever check (rarely) one of my machines it seems to be only
slightly fragmented.

And I'm still running a very mature installation of XP on a low power
Apple Mac Mini (on a 100G partition) and this is my everyday 'go-to'
machine and if it was as slow (by now) as suggested I wouldn't still
be using it (daily). (I'm using Agent V2 and Thunderbird V0.9). ;-)

Ok, it's now struggling with some Youtube videos but not because it's
got slower but the definition of the videos have got higher.

As with your experience, the Mrs runs W7 (again, daily and for
everything, including TV from her STB) and the odd time I get on it
for a 'tidy up' there is rarely anything to do.

She has Linux a reboot away as I have OSX but we both generally use
Windows because it does what we can't do using the alternatives.

Cheers, T i m

On 24/03/16 21:26, Chris French wrote:

Funny they should introduce automatic defragmentation in Windows 7
then ( if not before, can't remember now) which would rather seem
to defeat this cunning plan. It seems to work well enough as if I
ever check (rarely) one of my machines it seems to be only
slightly fragmented.

Oh the joys of Linux, and no de fragging ever unless the disk is 100% full

--
Johnny B Good





--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:43:21 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 24/03/16 21:26, Chris French wrote:

Funny they should introduce automatic defragmentation in Windows 7
then ( if not before, can't remember now) which would rather seem
to defeat this cunning plan. It seems to work well enough as if I
ever check (rarely) one of my machines it seems to be only
slightly fragmented.

Oh the joys of Linux, and no de fragging ever unless the disk is 100% full

But very few people around to help you when it goes wrong and few
guarantees from any suppliers that their hardware will work with it,
fully or at all.

It's great for geek's and running my TV and router though. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Dubavube Plubowmuban (Nubews)
wrubotube
Rod Speed wrote

Only one totally out of touch would think you'd
get a competent repair tech for the minimum wage.

Only a terminal ****wit such as yourself wouldn't have
noticed that someone working for themselves is quite
capable of being a competent repair tech and now that
so many choose to just buy a new one, may well not
earn the minimum wage with some jobs.

Self employed. Wage. Doesn't compute.

Thube ubabsubolubutube vubast bubulk ubof thubosube duboubing
rubepubaubir wubork ubon dubomubestubic ubapplubiubancubes ubarube
subelf ubempluboyubed, fubuckwubit.

I'm on a garlic diet. I've lost 14 pounds and 25 friends.

On 24/03/2016 22:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oh the joys of Linux, and no de fragging ever unless the disk is 100% full

I've heard this said, and I never can work out how.

If I put 5000 files on my disk, and delete every alternate one, how can
it not be fragmented?

Mind, with SSDs who cares anyway?

Andy

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 21:26:56 +0000, Chris French wrote:

Johnny B Good Wrote in message:
On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:25:23 +0000, Chris J Dixon wrote:
-search

The cycnic in me informs me that this is just a 'failsafe' way of
building in 'planned obsolescence' It's the home computer equivalent of
Microsoft's Cockamaimee Pagefile default settings in windows designed
to accelerate "System Senility" by aggravating the effects of file
system fragmentation due to normal file writing activities further
aggravated by the endless file churn from the never ending stream of
windows updates and fixes.

Microsoft's partnership deals with the PC hardware manufacturers,
effectively a cartel and informally known as "Wintel" on account of the
major chip supplier being Intel, benefited both parties in boosting
sales. Obviously, wintel would like to sell as much product as possible
and this pagefile trick was Microsoft's 'failsafe' contribution to
shortening the upgrade cycle to drive such an increase in sales.
on such a sneaky trick).

snip JBG paranoia

As it happened, MSFT's trick was never embarrassingly exposed in the
mass media so they were able to continue this ruse for over two
decades. Part of the reason for this success was that they offered the
end users pagefile settings options to completely eliminate this
particular effect,
neatly silencing any outcries from technically competent users who
would more likely feel they'd "gotten one over" on "The Dumb Consumers"
reinforcing their (justifiable) sense of smugness.
.


Funny they should introduce automatic defragmentation in Windows 7
then ( if not before, can't remember now) which would rather seem to
defeat this cunning plan. It seems to work well enough as if I ever
check (rarely) one of my machines it seems to be only slightly
fragmented.

Afaicr, "auto-defrag" was introduced with the ironically named Vista. It
may be no coincidence that MSFT removed the graphical display of progress
(indeed, no progress indicator at all) at this time since this offered
too much by way of a clue as to the distribution of the hundreds of
pagefile fragments that could land up spread right across the whole disk
volume when using the default pagefile settings. A bare percentage figure
of fragmentation tells only a small part of the story.

Back in the days of NT5.x when the defragmentation tool displayed such a
graphical representation of the fragmentation state (in a 'before' and
'after' graphic), it was easy to spot where the unmovable system files'
fragments (marked in green) were located. Indeed, I used the analyse
function to verify that the 4095MB pagefile in my win2k system was
occupying the very first half of the 8GB FAT32 partition space (as per my
intention) which was occupying the fastest outermost cylinders of the
second (1TB) HDD specifically to reduce head contention issues.

I well remember dealing with a winXP system, just a few short years
back, which seemed to be performing particularly slowly indeed. After
running the initial scans for malware, I ran defrag on the single huge
disk volume so classic of a winXP vintage OEM install which, when
completed, revealed in its 'after defragmentaion' display, the most
grassiest of displays I'd ever seen of the 'free space' area right across
the whole disk volume. From the report details, it was quite obvious that
virtually all 'the blades of grass' were owned by the pagefile's
thousands of fragments. Once I'd remedied the situation, the system
became noticeably perkier.

I have to admit that what made this particular job so memorable was the
*unusual* severity of the "Fragmentation Hell" effect of a pagefile still
using the default configuration settings (presumably for "Like forever
'n' ****").

Quite frankly, this "Auto-Defrag" feature of NT6.x was little better
than a "Band aid Solution" that could be much better addressed by
intelligent partitioning and de-cockamaimee-fying of the pagefile
settings.

Indeed, such a strategy "To keep on top" of the ongoing fragmentation
issue (aggravated not only by the default pagefile behaviour but also by
the endless file churn generated by windows updates) seemed to me to be
more a pointless game of "Whack-a-Mole" designed to work the poor HDD
into an early grave with a less than desirable constant HDD busy lamp
activity reducing its usefulness as an indicator of possible malware/
spyware activities.

It's even possible that this "neat feature", seemingly aimed at
consumers who had discovered the need to run the defrag utility on a
regular schedule to maintain their computer's performance was added more
as a sneaky way to disguise covert system activity than as a simple sop
to the consumer's desire for MSFT to "Do Something About File System
Fragmentation". However, maybe that's just my deep mistrust (gained over
the past two decades) of MSFT's motives, colouring my cynical view (aka
"paranoia" as you expressed it). :-)

BTW, apropos of nothing, your news client seems to be worth slightly
less than you paid for it since it appears unable to handle properly
formed sig lines, as per the quotage below. Just possibly there's a
setting in regard of sig line handling you might be able to customise.


--
Johnny B Good



--

--
Johnny B Good

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:43:21 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/03/16 21:26, Chris French wrote:

Funny they should introduce automatic defragmentation in Windows 7
then ( if not before, can't remember now) which would rather seem to
defeat this cunning plan. It seems to work well enough as if I ever
check (rarely) one of my machines it seems to be only slightly
fragmented.

Oh the joys of Linux, and no de fragging ever unless the disk is 100%
full

Oh, I'm sure fragmentation afflicts *all* file systems, even *nix file
systems. It's just that the worst effects can be greatly mitigated (not
completely eradicated) by careful design of the writing algorithms used.

And, of course, optimised partitioning of disk space goes a long way to
mitigating fragmentation tendencies (even truer in MSFT file systems).
It's not for nothing that the standard partitioning scheme in *nix
systems included a (dedicated) SWAP partition feature as well as a fixed
size swap file option intended mainly to simplify partitioning reqirements
in multi-boot systems but, which now all too often, seems to be the
default in most modern distros' installation utilities aimed at
recruiting refugees from the MSFT camp.

--
Johnny B Good

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:48:50 +0000, T i m wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:43:21 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 24/03/16 21:26, Chris French wrote:

Funny they should introduce automatic defragmentation in Windows 7
then ( if not before, can't remember now) which would rather seem to
defeat this cunning plan. It seems to work well enough as if I ever
check (rarely) one of my machines it seems to be only slightly
fragmented.

Oh the joys of Linux, and no de fragging ever unless the disk is 100%
full

But very few people around to help you when it goes wrong and few
guarantees from any suppliers that their hardware will work with it,
fully or at all.

It's great for geek's and running my TV and router though. ;-)

So was MSDOS and win95osr2 / win2k until MSFT perverted their later OS
products into consumer targeted systems with all the user friendly
features crippled or removed. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:

It's the home computer equivalent of Microsoft's Cockamaimee Pagefile
default settings in windows designed to accelerate "System Senility"
by aggravating the effects of file system fragmentation due to normal
file writing activities further aggravated by the endless file churn
from the never ending stream of windows updates and fixes.

Pagefiles were a necessary evil when you could only afford half as much
RAM as you needed, now I just buy twice the RAM I think I'll need and
run without a pagefile.

Outside of datacentres (and gaming?) demand for "MORE POWER!" seems to
have died out a few years before Moore's Law hits the buffers (Intel are
giving up on tick-tock).

On 24/03/2016 03:47, Johnny B Good wrote:

The original repair, just over a year ago, involved gluing the wishbone
shaped plastic operating lever back together using thin paxolin splints
with a 2 part epoxy resin glue. It just seemed a disgraceful failure mode
for the sake of not paying the attention to the detail it deserved in its
design (sharp 45 degree bends instead of organic curves to avoid stress
concentration mediated failure - it was just begging to fail).

This time I used a half mm drill and a couple of 8mm lengths of
stainless steel wire to beef up the second glue repair. Unfortunately,
this started acting up again just a few days ago and before I could have
yet another go, SWMBI decided it was time for a new kettle, hence the
visit to Argos today (actually, yesterday as I type this).

Are you short of something to ****ing do? If so come round here.

Bill

On 24/03/2016 17:48, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


And the self employed don't get wages. A fundamental principle of being
self emplowed.


Many self-employed people set themselves up as a company and pay
themselves a wage, and this wage is not directly related to profits.

Your typo 'emplowed' is interesting.

Bill

On 24/03/2016 20:21, John Rumm wrote:

Indeed - if you can be in the right place at the right time, there can
be a bonanza of free materials if they people running the site are
amenable. I have a mate with a lockup full of ply and OSB from such an
encounter!


When they built Meadowhall and i was working there I got so much timber
from skips I filled two sheds and had to use some of it to make another
shed to put the rest of it in. I've still got about fifty lengths of
hardwood dowel: I just break a bit off every time I want to stir some
paint.

I got a very large quantity of 10mm threaded bar in much the same way;
dunno what I'll ever do with it all. I use it for rebar etc.

Bill

On 26/03/2016 05:29, Bill Wright wrote:
On 24/03/2016 17:48, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


And the self employed don't get wages. A fundamental principle of being
self emplowed.


Many self-employed people set themselves up as a company and pay
themselves a wage, and this wage is not directly related to profits.


Better phrased as 'drawings', I think. Wage means a payment from an
employer to an employee.


--
Cheers, Rob

In article ,
"ARW" writes:

I know but Doug looks well.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Mini.jpg

I had one a bit like that (PKX 886M). Sold it in 1985 IIRC.
Used to see it for a couple of years afterwards, gradually
growing extra fog lights, walnut dashboard, coach lines, etc.

Owner probably got up one morning to find a pile of rust on
the driveway, topped off with walnut panel and chrome fog
lights...

Parents had one many years before in British Racing green,
with sliding windows and pull-cord door openers. (ABL 270B)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should not
DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the environmental
movement?

It must present an interesting conflict for many a green... on the one
hand it is a very good fit with the political ideology, and yet on the
other the knowledge requirements and attention to detail required are
likely to be counter to the (lack of) thought process that makes much
green policy seem even plausible in the first place.

If there was a green movememnt based on sound science and economics,
I would join it. Unfortunately, most green activists don't know
anything about either of them, and worse still, don't even realise
they don't know anything about them.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Saturday, 26 March 2016 05:36:34 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:

shed to put the rest of it in. I've still got about fifty lengths of
hardwood dowel: I just break a bit off every time I want to stir some
paint.

Use the same piece every time, then when you're really old you can carve it into somthing pretty.


NT

On 25/03/16 21:20, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/03/2016 22:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oh the joys of Linux, and no de fragging ever unless the disk is 100%
full

I've heard this said, and I never can work out how.

If I put 5000 files on my disk, and delete every alternate one, how can
it not be fragmented?

Well of course it is somewhat, but the point is that new files tend to
be written in the middle of the biggest free space, depending on the
actual disk format in use, so they tend to simply grow linearly.

Fragmentation isn't a file in a random place, its a file in dozens of
random places, so to get the entire contents takes many seeks.

http://www.howtogeek.com/115229/htg-...defragmenting/

Also the way Linux aggressively caches the disk, means that such
fragmentation as there is tends not to be such a performance hit.,


Mind, with SSDs who cares anyway?


Indeed.


Andy


--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"ARW" writes:

I know but Doug looks well.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Mini.jpg

I had one a bit like that (PKX 886M). Sold it in 1985 IIRC.
Used to see it for a couple of years afterwards, gradually
growing extra fog lights, walnut dashboard, coach lines, etc.

Owner probably got up one morning to find a pile of rust on
the driveway, topped off with walnut panel and chrome fog
lights...

In that era, I was introduced to body shop in Teddington "George, the only
man who can weld two bits of rust together". I had an Anglia - just as
rusty

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Saturday, 26 March 2016 09:21:29 UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

If there was a green movememnt based on sound science and economics,
I would join it. Unfortunately, most green activists don't know
anything about either of them, and worse still, don't even realise
they don't know anything about them.

They seem to be the main party collecting the anti-industrialisation anti-capitalist vote.


NT

On 25/03/16 22:15, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 24/03/2016 22:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oh the joys of Linux, and no de fragging ever unless the disk is 100%
full

I've heard this said, and I never can work out how.

If I put 5000 files on my disk, and delete every alternate one, how
can it not be fragmented?

OS X defrags in the background for files up to 10MB in size, AFAIK. But
I've never known it to be an issue anyway and it's never discussed on
Mac NGs because it isn't an issue.


All *nix derived kernels have some sort of 'auto-defrag' going on, but
the key point is that by using the disk layout more intelligently, there
is less need for it as well.

Once again the legacy of Windows - a single user system with its roots
back in floppy disks - and Unix - a multi-user system designed to work
with a very busy disk from the outset - show up.

Windows was engineered to sell to unsophisticated users. Unix had to
sell to very critical industrial and commercial users, and was
engineered to work .

"All chrome and tailfins".


Mind, with SSDs who cares anyway?

Well quite.



--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)