On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:02:58 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

You
can use *nix style grafting of volumes into another directory tree if
you like.

And I would say, outside the admin / geek, few would want to. ;-)

It can help if you have quite a few partitions, and then also things
like multi format card readers that can gobble letters.

Oh indeed, I've seen that. However, I still stand by my suggestion
that few people are bothered by them. They are just another thing they
don't really understand but work their way round.

Just in the same way they don't know the taskbar from the desktop or
the desktop from their browser home page. ;-)

You can end up
with more than 26 logical drives!

;-)


Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of doing
drives and volumes the best[1]. You could create physical device names
as you liked (either defined in a mountlist file, or as a separate mount
listette file in the Drivers folder). You could also create an
assignment that looked like a device name or volume name, but pointed
somewhere else like a folder on a hard drive or network.

I just turned mine on and played games on them. ;-)

You could refer to a drive by its name (say dh0: for a hard drive) or by
its volume label (say system. If you used the volume label it did not
care what physical drive it was in. So it made handling of removable
media very nice - you could refer to MyCDName:somepath/somefile and if
it could not find the volume it just promoted you to put it into any
drive (which could include copying the CD to a hard drive folder and
then assigning that name to the folder).

I sort of follow that. 'Very flexible'.

It still bugs me today when
installing a multi DVD game for example that Windows will frequently
insist that you stick all the discs one by one into the same drive, and
can't make use of multiple DVD drives...

I'm not sure that's 'Windows' as such but the installer routine? ITRW,
how many people have more than one optical drive (or even one working
optical drive for that matter)?

I was just given a couple of bags of 'computer stuff' by my BIL that
he was about to throw out and thought he had better check with me
first (as I have always built their PC's and still support one PC and
several laptops).

I've just given him back the current motherboard box back with the
user manual, the blanking panels for the front of the case and
expansion slots, driver CD and an Ethernet cable (as I said they
should keep at least one handy for testing etc).

Some of the rest I'll keep (other Ethernet cables and a gaming
joystick) but the parallel printer, firewire cables and a couple of
dial-up modems and some other odd stuff will probably go in the
electrical gadgets recycling skip.

[1] to be fair ISTR VMS could do similar, but the syntax was convoluted.

K.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I've just given Mum one of our old sofas for her lean-to and she
currently has it up on some 100mm blocks to help get up and out of it.
I took two of the 20mm high 'feet' off it today and intend to (3d)
print some 120mm high replacements. ;-)

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
T i m wrote
Tim Streater wrote
T i m wrote
polygonum wrote
T i m wrote

Strange though, in 20+ years supporting many Windows users, I can't
remember anyone (other than a *nix / Apple user) even mentioning,
let
alone complaining about them? I mean, they may not understand what
they represent in a technical sense but they generally understand
what
they mean to them (in most cases without any instruction).

I have heard complaints/questions.

Starting with "Why can't I use A:?". Having ill-advisedly
used A: and/or B:, "Why doesn't this work right?" (maybe
A: and B: don't do odd things now - they used to).

Nope, never had that ...

Going on to "Why is it Z: on that PC but Q: on this one?"

"Where has P: gone?" when the original P: is "over-mapped"
by another drive that wants to be called P:.

"Why can't I use my CD drive since someone set up the network drive
as D:?"

Yeahbut they are network related questions and most home users
don't use networking and so those business / office users should
have been better trained and / or the network admin configured
the shares more consistently with a / the logon script).

You mean most home users only have one computer at their house?

That wasn't what I meant but may well be true (statically
(where 'computer' doesn't mean smartphone or tablet,

Statistics are irrelevant to the fact that those are just
as much computers as the desktops and laptops.

The word 'statistically wasn't referring to phones ort tablets.

They are in fact just as much computers in
the home as desktops and laptops are now.

that also rarely make use of any local shared
services, other than the Interweb)). ;-)

That's bull**** with printers alone.

Still 'nope'. You are still wrong.

Not on that question of what are locally shared services.

See, you don't have the ability to see things as others see them

Bull**** I don't.

and hence aren't able to accept that things
may not be as you think they are.

Even sillier than you usually manage. I've been doing that
with computers since before you were even born thanks.

My mate runs a PC shop and I often chill out in there
(it's also where the 3D printer we built lives and I've
always got something I want to print on there).

So, I *still* (continuing / expanding my lifelong role in IT Support)
see and hear just what sort of things 'ordinary people' do with their
machines and therefore *know* that very few actually make use of
local networking, *including* network printing and printing from
mobile devices like tablets and phones.

The problem with that line is that you never get to see those
who can do that without any assistance from anyone else.

I'm not talking everyone, I'm talking 'most people'.

You are very welcome to think something different but I suggest
it's unlikely to accurately reflect the real world of 'ordinary people'.

Since I assist a lot more of them than you ever
do, you are just plain wrong on that too.

On 29/03/2016 21:02, John Rumm wrote:
Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of doing
drives and volumes the best.

I rather liked the way ICL's VME worked.

Almost no-one knew or cared where any file was. You would access a file
as something owned by a user (by default, the user you were logged in
as). That file was looked up in a catalogue which held details of where
the file was located.

The people who cared were the system administrators.

(There were techniques for controlling where the file went - but again,
these were set up by system administrators.)

--
Rod

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:39:31 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
T i m wrote
Tim Streater wrote
T i m wrote
polygonum wrote
T i m wrote

Strange though, in 20+ years supporting many Windows users, I can't
remember anyone (other than a *nix / Apple user) even mentioning,
let
alone complaining about them? I mean, they may not understand what
they represent in a technical sense but they generally understand
what
they mean to them (in most cases without any instruction).

I have heard complaints/questions.

Starting with "Why can't I use A:?". Having ill-advisedly
used A: and/or B:, "Why doesn't this work right?" (maybe
A: and B: don't do odd things now - they used to).

Nope, never had that ...

Going on to "Why is it Z: on that PC but Q: on this one?"

"Where has P: gone?" when the original P: is "over-mapped"
by another drive that wants to be called P:.

"Why can't I use my CD drive since someone set up the network drive
as D:?"

Yeahbut they are network related questions and most home users
don't use networking and so those business / office users should
have been better trained and / or the network admin configured
the shares more consistently with a / the logon script).

You mean most home users only have one computer at their house?

That wasn't what I meant but may well be true (statically
(where 'computer' doesn't mean smartphone or tablet,

Statistics are irrelevant to the fact that those are just
as much computers as the desktops and laptops.

The word 'statistically wasn't referring to phones ort tablets.

They are in fact just as much computers in
the home as desktops and laptops are now.

I didn't say they weren't. I said people don't see / use them in the
same way and *especially* when it comes to local networking.

that also rarely make use of any local shared
services, other than the Interweb)). ;-)

That's bull**** with printers alone.

Still 'nope'. You are still wrong.

Not on that question of what are locally shared services.

Yup, you still are.

See, you don't have the ability to see things as others see them

Bull**** I don't.

Thanks for proving it. ;-)

and hence aren't able to accept that things
may not be as you think they are.

Even sillier than you usually manage. I've been doing that
with computers since before you were even born thanks.

*You* have been doing *what* exactly? You know, *you*, rather than the
'most people' I an talking about?

My mate runs a PC shop and I often chill out in there
(it's also where the 3D printer we built lives and I've
always got something I want to print on there).

So, I *still* (continuing / expanding my lifelong role in IT Support)
see and hear just what sort of things 'ordinary people' do with their
machines and therefore *know* that very few actually make use of
local networking, *including* network printing and printing from
mobile devices like tablets and phones.

The problem with that line is that you never get to see those
who can do that without any assistance from anyone else.

Other than though other connections, like here and other 'computer'
orientated groups you mean. I have (personally() administrated a small
company LAN and done IT training for 7 years (10 people a week, 50
weeks a year) so do have a pretty good idea what 'most people' (and
'most people' aren't geeks remember) intrinsically do or don't know.

I'm not talking everyone, I'm talking 'most people'.

You are very welcome to think something different but I suggest
it's unlikely to accurately reflect the real world of 'ordinary people'.

Since I assist a lot more of them than you ever
do, you are just plain wrong on that too.

Yes, of course you do ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2%80%93Anne_test

Cheers, T i m

On 29/03/2016 23:08, Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:

On 29/03/2016 00:35, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 10:20:54 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

Going on to "Why is it Z: on that PC but Q: on this one?"

Network search mapping / network drive mapping.

Users with later versions of windows don't need to map network drives.
You access them using the machine name and share name.

Its yet more FUD from people that don't use windows.

That Windows uses drive letters is not FUD. It's a FACT that turns up
and irritates those of us who don't need them on other OSes but are
forced to take note of them when we are unlucky enough to encounter
Windows.


And things like /mnt/cdrom01 is better?
Or /mnt/sda and the whole string of partitions under it?

Face it they could have used bill, fred and joan and some wouldn't be happy.

To argue that an OS is worse than another because there are short cuts
to drives labelled as A:, b:, etc. is silly.

On 29/03/2016 21:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/03/2016 16:54, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 28 Mar 2016 15:54:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 27/03/2016 23:26, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 26/03/2016 09:33, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Once again the legacy of Windows - a single user system with its
roots
back in floppy disks - and Unix - a multi-user system designed to
work
with a very busy disk from the outset - show up.

You do talk a load of crap at times...

Windows 3.1, sure a shell on top of DOS. Win NT onward, basically a
re-engineering of VMS. Hardly what anyone would describe as a single
use floppy based system.

Bodged downwards though to have drive letters. Drive letters, in this
day and age.

Drive letters are crap,

Strange though, in 20+ years supporting many Windows users, I can't
remember anyone (other than a *nix / Apple user) even mentioning, let
alone complaining about them? I mean, they may not understand what
they represent in a technical sense but they generally understand what
they mean to them (in most cases without any instruction).

although using them is (mostly) optional...

Quite.

You
can use *nix style grafting of volumes into another directory tree if
you like.

And I would say, outside the admin / geek, few would want to. ;-)

It can help if you have quite a few partitions, and then also things
like multi format card readers that can gobble letters. You can end up
with more than 26 logical drives!

Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of doing
drives and volumes the best[1]. You could create physical device names
as you liked (either defined in a mountlist file, or as a separate mount
listette file in the Drivers folder). You could also create an
assignment that looked like a device name or volume name, but pointed
somewhere else like a folder on a hard drive or network.

You could refer to a drive by its name (say dh0: for a hard drive) or by
its volume label (say system. If you used the volume label it did not
care what physical drive it was in. So it made handling of removable
media very nice - you could refer to MyCDName:somepath/somefile and if
it could not find the volume it just promoted you to put it into any
drive (which could include copying the CD to a hard drive folder and
then assigning that name to the folder). It still bugs me today when
installing a multi DVD game for example that Windows will frequently
insist that you stick all the discs one by one into the same drive, and
can't make use of multiple DVD drives...

Windows didn't care about having multiple CD drives, the crummy
installers some people used did.
Some of the installers would do exactly as you said and find the disks
in other drives.
The installers were not a part of windows and came with the application.

Some still do although most now use the inbuilt windows tools.

[1] to be fair ISTR VMS could do similar, but the syntax was convoluted.

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
T i m wrote
Tim Streater wrote
T i m wrote
polygonum wrote
T i m wrote

Strange though, in 20+ years supporting many Windows users, I
can't
remember anyone (other than a *nix / Apple user) even mentioning,
let alone complaining about them? I mean, they may not understand
what they represent in a technical sense but they generally
understand
what they mean to them (in most cases without any instruction).

I have heard complaints/questions.

Starting with "Why can't I use A:?". Having ill-advisedly
used A: and/or B:, "Why doesn't this work right?" (maybe
A: and B: don't do odd things now - they used to).

Nope, never had that ...

Going on to "Why is it Z: on that PC but Q: on this one?"

"Where has P: gone?" when the original P: is "over-mapped"
by another drive that wants to be called P:.

"Why can't I use my CD drive since someone
set up the network drive as D:?"

Yeahbut they are network related questions and most home users
don't use networking and so those business / office users should
have been better trained and / or the network admin configured
the shares more consistently with a / the logon script).

You mean most home users only have one computer at their house?

That wasn't what I meant but may well be true (statically
(where 'computer' doesn't mean smartphone or tablet,

Statistics are irrelevant to the fact that those are just
as much computers as the desktops and laptops.

The word 'statistically wasn't referring to phones ort tablets.

They are in fact just as much computers in
the home as desktops and laptops are now.

I didn't say they weren't. I said people don't see / use them in the
same way and *especially* when it comes to local networking.

They are in fact doing just as much networking
as desktops and tablets are in the home. Much
more in fact now that so many don't bother
with desktops anymore and so many don't
use their laptops much anymore.

that also rarely make use of any local shared
services, other than the Interweb)). ;-)

That's bull**** with printers alone.

Still 'nope'. You are still wrong.

Not on that question of what are locally shared services.

Yup, you still are.

Nope, most obviously with networking that involves
printer sharing and media playing on their TVs etc.

See, you don't have the ability to see things as others see them

Bull**** I don't.

Thanks for proving it. ;-)

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

and hence aren't able to accept that things
may not be as you think they are.

Even sillier than you usually manage. I've been doing that
with computers since before you were even born thanks.

*You* have been doing *what* exactly?

"the ability to see things as others see them"

You know, *you*, rather than the
'most people' I an talking about?

My mate runs a PC shop and I often chill out in there
(it's also where the 3D printer we built lives and I've
always got something I want to print on there).

So, I *still* (continuing / expanding my lifelong role in IT Support)
see and hear just what sort of things 'ordinary people' do with their
machines and therefore *know* that very few actually make use of
local networking, *including* network printing and printing from
mobile devices like tablets and phones.

The problem with that line is that you never get to see those
who can do that without any assistance from anyone else.

Other than though other connections, like here
and other 'computer' orientated groups you mean.

Still a microscopic subset of all those using computers in their homes.

I have (personally() administrated a small company
LAN and done IT training for 7 years

I've been doing much more than that for more than 50 ****ing years, thanks.

(10 people a week, 50 weeks a year) so do have a pretty
good idea what 'most people' (and 'most people' aren't
geeks remember) intrinsically do or don't know.

Like hell you do with most home computer users.

I'm not talking everyone, I'm talking 'most people'.

You are very welcome to think something different but I suggest
it's unlikely to accurately reflect the real world of 'ordinary people'.

Since I assist a lot more of them than you ever
do, you are just plain wrong on that too.

Yes, of course you do ...

Like it or lump it, child.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:35:23 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

They are in fact just as much computers in
the home as desktops and laptops are now.

I didn't say they weren't. I said people don't see / use them in the
same way and *especially* when it comes to local networking.

They are in fact doing just as much networking
as desktops and tablets are in the home.

Correct. Very little.

Much
more in fact now that so many don't bother
with desktops anymore and so many don't
use their laptops much anymore.

WHF are you talking about now. If 'most people' weren't using network
shares or network printers with desktops and laptops (and they
weren't) then 'of course' they would be doing the same with tablets
and phones.

that also rarely make use of any local shared
services, other than the Interweb)). ;-)

That's bull**** with printers alone.

Still 'nope'. You are still wrong.

Not on that question of what are locally shared services.

Yup, you still are.

Nope, most obviously with networking that involves
printer sharing and media playing on their TVs etc.

And 'most people' do neither. I don't know anyone who does and I don't
either.

See, you don't have the ability to see things as others see them

Bull**** I don't.

Thanks for proving it. ;-)

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Isn't it about time you updated your insult list? This one is getting
pretty tired and feeble. ;-(

and hence aren't able to accept that things
may not be as you think they are.

Even sillier than you usually manage. I've been doing that
with computers since before you were even born thanks.

*You* have been doing *what* exactly?

"the ability to see things as others see them"

Yes, is patently obvious that is the case from what you have said so
far (not).

You know, *you*, rather than the
'most people' I an talking about?

My mate runs a PC shop and I often chill out in there
(it's also where the 3D printer we built lives and I've
always got something I want to print on there).

So, I *still* (continuing / expanding my lifelong role in IT Support)
see and hear just what sort of things 'ordinary people' do with their
machines and therefore *know* that very few actually make use of
local networking, *including* network printing and printing from
mobile devices like tablets and phones.

The problem with that line is that you never get to see those
who can do that without any assistance from anyone else.

Other than though other connections, like here
and other 'computer' orientated groups you mean.

Still a microscopic subset of all those using computers in their homes.

Yup, and therefore not representative of 'most users'.

I have (personally() administrated a small company
LAN and done IT training for 7 years

I've been doing much more than that for more than 50

snip expletive

years, thanks.

Of course you have. Well done you.

(10 people a week, 50 weeks a year) so do have a pretty
good idea what 'most people' (and 'most people' aren't
geeks remember) intrinsically do or don't know.

Like hell you do with most home computer users.

No, of course I don't. wink

I'm not talking everyone, I'm talking 'most people'.

You are very welcome to think something different but I suggest
it's unlikely to accurately reflect the real world of 'ordinary people'.

Since I assist a lot more of them than you ever
do, you are just plain wrong on that too.

Yes, of course you do ...

Like it or lump it, child.

I'll lump it if it's ok with you (or even if it isn't).

Byeee.

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote
T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

They are in fact just as much computers in
the home as desktops and laptops are now.

I didn't say they weren't. I said people don't see / use them in the
same way and *especially* when it comes to local networking.

They are in fact doing just as much networking
as desktops and tablets are in the home.

Correct. Very little.

Wrong, much more than there had been previously with media playing alone.

Much more in fact now that so many don't
bother with desktops anymore and so many
don't use their laptops much anymore.

WHF are you talking about now. If 'most people'
weren't using network shares or network printers
with desktops and laptops (and they weren't)

Wrong with printers and media playing.

then 'of course' they would be doing
the same with tablets and phones.

They are in fact doing much more network sharing
and media playing with those than they were when
they didn't have tablets and phones, just because it
is now so trivially easy to do the backups and stuff
like itunes between the computers in your home
now, even if you don't have a clue about networking
and don't even realise that that is how its done by
those computers.

Even any of the cloud stuff that almost everyone uses
now is network shares, even if they don't realise that.

And they don't need to know anything about
networking to use it without thinking at all.

Swapping photos with other people in spades.

that also rarely make use of any local shared
services, other than the Interweb)). ;-)

That's bull**** with printers alone.

Still 'nope'. You are still wrong.

Not on that question of what are locally shared services.

Yup, you still are.

Nope, most obviously with networking that involves
printer sharing and media playing on their TVs etc.

And 'most people' do neither.

Bull**** they don't.

I don't know anyone who does

Because you don't have a ****ing clue about what most
people do with their computers in their homes.

and I don't either.

Your problem, as always.

See, you don't have the ability to see things as others see them

Bull**** I don't.

Thanks for proving it. ;-)

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Isn't it about time you updated your insult list?

Fools like you don't qualify.

and hence aren't able to accept that things
may not be as you think they are.

Even sillier than you usually manage. I've been doing that
with computers since before you were even born thanks.

*You* have been doing *what* exactly?

"the ability to see things as others see them"

Yes, is patently obvious that is the case
from what you have said so far (not).

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

You know, *you*, rather than the
'most people' I an talking about?

My mate runs a PC shop and I often chill out in there
(it's also where the 3D printer we built lives and I've
always got something I want to print on there).

So, I *still* (continuing / expanding my lifelong role in IT Support)
see and hear just what sort of things 'ordinary people' do with their
machines and therefore *know* that very few actually make use of
local networking, *including* network printing and printing from
mobile devices like tablets and phones.

The problem with that line is that you never get to see those
who can do that without any assistance from anyone else.

Other than though other connections, like here
and other 'computer' orientated groups you mean.

Still a microscopic subset of all those using computers in their homes.

Yup, and therefore not representative of 'most users'.

So you aren't in any position to be able to say anything about
what most users do with their computers in their homes.

I have (personally() administrated a small company
LAN and done IT training for 7 years

I've been doing much more than that
for more than 50 ****ing years, thanks.

Of course you have. Well done you.

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

(10 people a week, 50 weeks a year) so do have a pretty
good idea what 'most people' (and 'most people' aren't
geeks remember) intrinsically do or don't know.

Like hell you do with most home computer users.

Who never needed any course at all.

No, of course I don't. wink

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

I'm not talking everyone, I'm talking 'most people'.

You are very welcome to think something different but I suggest
it's unlikely to accurately reflect the real world of 'ordinary
people'.

Since I assist a lot more of them than you ever
do, you are just plain wrong on that too.

Yes, of course you do ...

Like it or lump it, child.

I'll lump it if it's ok with you (or even if it isn't).

Byeee.

On 30/03/2016 00:09, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , polygonum
wrote:

On 29/03/2016 21:02, John Rumm wrote:
Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of doing
drives and volumes the best.

I rather liked the way ICL's VME worked.

Almost no-one knew or cared where any file was. You would access a
file as something owned by a user (by default, the user you were
logged in as). That file was looked up in a catalogue which held
details of where the file was located.

Meaning you couldn't have more than one file of a particular name?

You could have as many as you like! Most things in the catalogue were
owned by a user. So each and every user could have a file of exactly the
same terminal name. E.g :user1.file, :users2.file, :users3.file, etc.
The catalogue also contained users, and a group hierarchy. Further,
filenames included generation numbers (and language code and version
numbers - though they were rarely actively used) which were often
convenient to use. Given :user.file(1), you could have :user.file(2),
:user.file(3), etc. By default, reference without generation number
being specified meant "highest existing generation number".

--
Rod

On 30/03/16 00:09, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , polygonum
wrote:

On 29/03/2016 21:02, John Rumm wrote:
Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of doing
drives and volumes the best.

I rather liked the way ICL's VME worked.

Almost no-one knew or cared where any file was. You would access a
file as something owned by a user (by default, the user you were
logged in as). That file was looked up in a catalogue which held
details of where the file was located.

Meaning you couldn't have more than one file of a particular name?

IIRC VMS could actually have dozens of copies of files with the same
name, as versions.

Bin a LOONG time since I sat behind a VMS console tho.


--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On 30/03/16 12:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/03/16 00:09, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , polygonum
wrote:

On 29/03/2016 21:02, John Rumm wrote:
Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of
doing
drives and volumes the best.

I rather liked the way ICL's VME worked.

Almost no-one knew or cared where any file was. You would access a
file as something owned by a user (by default, the user you were
logged in as). That file was looked up in a catalogue which held
details of where the file was located.

Meaning you couldn't have more than one file of a particular name?

IIRC VMS could actually have dozens of copies of files with the same
name, as versions.

Bin a LOONG time since I sat behind a VMS console tho.


Opps sorry. You were talking VME...

Coffee hasn't kicked in yet..


--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

On 29/03/2016 22:34, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:02:58 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

You
can use *nix style grafting of volumes into another directory tree if
you like.

And I would say, outside the admin / geek, few would want to. ;-)

It can help if you have quite a few partitions, and then also things
like multi format card readers that can gobble letters.

Oh indeed, I've seen that. However, I still stand by my suggestion
that few people are bothered by them. They are just another thing they
don't really understand but work their way round.

Just in the same way they don't know the taskbar from the desktop or
the desktop from their browser home page. ;-)

True - if the difficulty some seem to have with instructions like "open
your web browser" are anything to go by ;-)

Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of doing
drives and volumes the best[1]. You could create physical device names
as you liked (either defined in a mountlist file, or as a separate mount
listette file in the Drivers folder). You could also create an
assignment that looked like a device name or volume name, but pointed
somewhere else like a folder on a hard drive or network.

I just turned mine on and played games on them. ;-)

Well if you got to the stage of installing the game on the hard drive,
then it became very useful to stick an "assign nameofgamedisk:
system:games/nameofgamefolder" into the user-startup script. ;-)

You could refer to a drive by its name (say dh0: for a hard drive) or by
its volume label (say system. If you used the volume label it did not
care what physical drive it was in. So it made handling of removable
media very nice - you could refer to MyCDName:somepath/somefile and if
it could not find the volume it just promoted you to put it into any
drive (which could include copying the CD to a hard drive folder and
then assigning that name to the folder).

I sort of follow that. 'Very flexible'.

Indeed - and allowed easy separation of a logical volume from a physical
device name or mount location.

It still bugs me today when
installing a multi DVD game for example that Windows will frequently
insist that you stick all the discs one by one into the same drive, and
can't make use of multiple DVD drives...

I'm not sure that's 'Windows' as such but the installer routine?

Well windows does have a default installer (that handles .msi files) -
however the same problem seems to exist with most of the commercial
installers like installshield etc.

ITRW,
how many people have more than one optical drive (or even one working
optical drive for that matter)?

A diminishing number I would guess. I normally have at least two in a
machine since it makes disk to disk copies faster.

It would also be handy sometimes to map drives on other machines, so you
could slap say your 6 DVDs from the latest game etc into as many drives,
and say "go install that, and don't bother me for as long as it takes".

I've just given him back the current motherboard box back with the
user manual, the blanking panels for the front of the case and
expansion slots, driver CD and an Ethernet cable (as I said they
should keep at least one handy for testing etc).

There was a time with corporate customers I would give them all that
kind of stuff with their new machines. Gave up in the end because the
usually just binned it or failing that could not find it if you ever
wanted it. Easier to just keep a stock of bits they might need myself!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/03/2016 07:33, polygonum wrote:
On 30/03/2016 00:09, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , polygonum
wrote:

On 29/03/2016 21:02, John Rumm wrote:
Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of
doing
drives and volumes the best.

I rather liked the way ICL's VME worked.

Almost no-one knew or cared where any file was. You would access a
file as something owned by a user (by default, the user you were
logged in as). That file was looked up in a catalogue which held
details of where the file was located.

Meaning you couldn't have more than one file of a particular name?

You could have as many as you like! Most things in the catalogue were
owned by a user. So each and every user could have a file of exactly the
same terminal name. E.g :user1.file, :users2.file, :users3.file, etc.
The catalogue also contained users, and a group hierarchy. Further,
filenames included generation numbers (and language code and version
numbers - though they were rarely actively used) which were often
convenient to use. Given :user.file(1), you could have :user.file(2),
:user.file(3), etc. By default, reference without generation number
being specified meant "highest existing generation number".

VMS also used a file generation counter - so if you edited and saved
myfile.pas it would be myfile.pas;1, then each successive edit would
increment the version. Hence you could wither leave the version off the
file and get the latest, or specify any previous version explicitly.
Sometimes handy for being able to back out changes to files easily. You
needed to do a purge command from time to time though or you could
quickly run out of space! It supported a fully hierarchical tree style
directory structure as well though, so you can have multiple different
myfile.pas;1 files so long as they are not in the same folder.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 29/03/2016 23:05, dennis@home wrote:
On 29/03/2016 21:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/03/2016 16:54, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 28 Mar 2016 15:54:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 27/03/2016 23:26, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 26/03/2016 09:33, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Once again the legacy of Windows - a single user system with its
roots
back in floppy disks - and Unix - a multi-user system designed to
work
with a very busy disk from the outset - show up.

You do talk a load of crap at times...

Windows 3.1, sure a shell on top of DOS. Win NT onward, basically a
re-engineering of VMS. Hardly what anyone would describe as a single
use floppy based system.

Bodged downwards though to have drive letters. Drive letters, in this
day and age.

Drive letters are crap,

Strange though, in 20+ years supporting many Windows users, I can't
remember anyone (other than a *nix / Apple user) even mentioning, let
alone complaining about them? I mean, they may not understand what
they represent in a technical sense but they generally understand what
they mean to them (in most cases without any instruction).

although using them is (mostly) optional...

Quite.

You
can use *nix style grafting of volumes into another directory tree if
you like.

And I would say, outside the admin / geek, few would want to. ;-)

It can help if you have quite a few partitions, and then also things
like multi format card readers that can gobble letters. You can end up
with more than 26 logical drives!

Of all the platforms I have used, I think I liked the Amiga way of doing
drives and volumes the best[1]. You could create physical device names
as you liked (either defined in a mountlist file, or as a separate mount
listette file in the Drivers folder). You could also create an
assignment that looked like a device name or volume name, but pointed
somewhere else like a folder on a hard drive or network.

You could refer to a drive by its name (say dh0: for a hard drive) or by
its volume label (say system. If you used the volume label it did not
care what physical drive it was in. So it made handling of removable
media very nice - you could refer to MyCDName:somepath/somefile and if
it could not find the volume it just promoted you to put it into any
drive (which could include copying the CD to a hard drive folder and
then assigning that name to the folder). It still bugs me today when
installing a multi DVD game for example that Windows will frequently
insist that you stick all the discs one by one into the same drive, and
can't make use of multiple DVD drives...

Windows didn't care about having multiple CD drives, the crummy
installers some people used did.
Some of the installers would do exactly as you said and find the disks
in other drives.
The installers were not a part of windows and came with the application.

That was true for a long time, although windows does now have its own
installer - although most games still use their own installer IME. Its
rare to find one that does support using multiple drives.

My point was really that if the capability to refer to a volume name is
built into the OS, then the behaviour becomes standard for any installer
(as long as it does not hard code a physical drive name into the path).

Some still do although most now use the inbuilt windows tools.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 16:48:48 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
RJH wrote
Bill Wright wrote

In the interests of the conservation of materials and
energy, should not DIY, especially the repair of goods,
be a priority for the environmental movement?

I do, but it needs working at.

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single
household tool proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

DIY on its own as it stands probably wastes more than it saves.

Also, skill sharing. IMHO DIY gets bodged because the DIYer
doesn't have the time/experience to get up to speed. It often
takes me three or four times to get things even remotely right,

if it take you 4 times longer I can only assume you do it for fun. ;-)

So why don't people get pros in... the answer is usually cost.

I do it myself because I get a better result because
the time doesn't cost me anything and I can do
whatever it takes to get the best result in the end.

Well I have a job so it doesnt always make sense to DIY as
to me my time is worth money even if I didn't have a job.

Your time isnt worth money when you do the DIY in the
evenings or on the weekends when you aren't working.

It is to me and always will be.
Only a brain dead ****er like yourself wouldn;t consider their time on this planet valuable.


The most you can validly claim is that you would
rather do something else like veg out in front of
the TV or down the pub etc.

Or do a hobby even read a book, otherwuse I'd be working 24/7


And if you don't have a job,

Well I do, so I'll flush the rest of your **** were it belongs

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 16:54:58 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote

So what did you do.
I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

Yes I know, but I didn't have the tools to do it

Cost a lot less to buy them than to pay someone else to do it all.

No it doesn't othertwise the roofing contractors would have their own scaffolders ****wit.

But you really believe it would be cheaper for me to buy or hire a scaffild lorry leant how to drive it (HGV I believe) than pay for people already skilled in those areas. You've got to be really stupid to believe that, oh yeah you are.




There are a few things like pouring a massive great concrete
slab where it isnt possible for one person to do it themselves,
but there aren't that many of those situations with houses.

there are plenty where it's so much easity to have a 2nd pair of hands..

There aren't actually all that many. And one obvious approach
with those is to help a mate with those that are, and have him
help you with yours without that costing you a cent.

That's why you keep getting headaches isn't it, you ask your 'doctor' friend who once brought a sheep back to life through mouth-to-mouth, well that's what the judge was told, isnlt realyl a doctor is he so you're not saving money of becoming effcinent by saving money on asking a pro.


My ****ing great 8'x8' patio doors are just a little too big
and a little too heavy to do by yourself. Easy enough to get
the door out by yourself but they are just a bit too big and
heavy to get them back by yourself easily. So I get a mate
of mine who lives just around the corner to give me a hand
putting it back and help him with his computer problems.

Is this the same friend that gave you a free brain transplant.

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 19:39:53 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 20:51:00 UTC, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account. DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most likely
uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Today I fixed a microwave. Insulation on HT wires had broken down. Patched it up, all done in about 20 minutes. It would cost at least £20 to replace, probably more, so that's £60+ per hour. And it saved me time, it would take longer to find/buy/collect one, then dispose of the old one.

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29 per test
or buy new ones what do you do ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-co...cordsets-72094

On 30/03/2016 15:16, whisky-dave wrote:

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29 per test
or buy new ones what do you do ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-co...cordsets-72094


You don't waste money on tests that are not required.
It would be law if they were and it isn't.

whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote

So what did you do.

I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

Yes I know, but I didn't have the tools to do it

Cost a lot less to buy them than to pay someone else to do it all.

No it doesn't

Corse it does with scaffolding. You need **** all
tools, just a spanner or a ratchet handle and socket.

othertwise the roofing contractors would have their own scaffolders

They don't because of the law on qualifications and
because it matters how long the scaffolding takes to
erect. None of which appys when you are DIYing it.

But you really believe it would be cheaper for me to buy
or hire a scaffild lorry leant how to drive it (HGV I believe)

That isnt how you DIY scaffolding. When I built my house
from scratch on a bare block of land, I used free used 44
gallon drums with planks on for the block laying of the walls.

Once the walls were done and I need to DIY the roof, I welded
up a 6x4' frame out of 25mm RHS which has my circular saw
in a DIY cutoff saw that I use for cutting RHS and timber. That
has another 4x4' 25mm RHS frame that slots in above the
cutoff saw with the saw inside that. There are a couple of
wooden platforms that drop onto the top of the RHS frames
and the whole thing has wheels at just one end. That runs
around on the concrete slab that comprises the entire floor
for the entire single level house and around the outside of
the house so you can stand on that to do the barge boards
and eaves and gutters etc.

than pay for people already skilled in those areas.

I did that with some stuff. When I asked the plant hire place
what was the best way to clear the block initially, she said
that the best thing to use was a full road grader. She was
right, the ****ing thing was almost half as long as the
entire block of land but a couple of passes over the block
and it was all done. Cost me peanuts because it was so quick.

all your silly stuff flushed

There are a few things like pouring a massive great concrete
slab where it isnt possible for one person to do it themselves,
but there aren't that many of those situations with houses.

there are plenty where it's so much easity to have a 2nd pair of hands.

There aren't actually all that many. And one obvious approach
with those is to help a mate with those that are, and have him
help you with yours without that costing you a cent.

all your silly stuff flushed

My ****ing great 8'x8' patio doors are just a little too big
and a little too heavy to do by yourself. Easy enough to get
the door out by yourself but they are just a bit too big and
heavy to get them back by yourself easily. So I get a mate
of mine who lives just around the corner to give me a hand
putting it back and help him with his computer problems.

all your silly stuff flushed

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 19:39:53 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 20:51:00 UTC, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account.
DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is
most likely
uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on
using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The
idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Today I fixed a microwave. Insulation on HT wires had broken down.
Patched it up, all done in about 20 minutes. It would cost at least £20
to replace, probably more, so that's £60+ per hour. And it saved me time,
it would take longer to find/buy/collect one, then dispose of the old
one.

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29 per
test

Only someone as stupid as you would go that route.

or buy new ones what do you do ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-co...cordsets-72094

On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 16:50:29 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 30/03/2016 15:16, whisky-dave wrote:

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29 per test
or buy new ones what do you do ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-co...cordsets-72094


You don't waste money on tests that are not required.
It would be law if they were and it isn't.

I know that and I've told managment but they need their boxes ticked and if they want to pay a few thousand every year that's for them to manage not me.

On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 19:14:20 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote

So what did you do.

I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

Yes I know, but I didn't have the tools to do it

Cost a lot less to buy them than to pay someone else to do it all.

No it doesn't

Corse it does with scaffolding. You need **** all
tools, just a spanner or a ratchet handle and socket.

But you also need the scafolding and the ladders don't you.
These don't normally grow on trees or appear out of thin air.


othertwise the roofing contractors would have their own scaffolders

They don't because of the law on qualifications and
because it matters how long the scaffolding takes to
erect. None of which appys when you are DIYing it.

yes it does because if it takes me longer to erect scaffolding on my own than in does with 3 people doing it why doesn;t it matter?



But you really believe it would be cheaper for me to buy
or hire a scaffild lorry leant how to drive it (HGV I believe)

That isnt how you DIY scaffolding.

So how do you DIY scaffolding ?

When I built my house
from scratch on a bare block of land, I used free used 44
gallon drums with planks on for the block laying of the walls.

Not allowed to do that in teh UK thre's regulations.


Once the walls were done and I need to DIY the roof, I welded
up a 6x4' frame out of 25mm RHS which has my circular saw
in a DIY cutoff saw that I use for cutting RHS and timber. That
has another 4x4' 25mm RHS frame that slots in above the
cutoff saw with the saw inside that. There are a couple of
wooden platforms that drop onto the top of the RHS frames
and the whole thing has wheels at just one end. That runs
around on the concrete slab that comprises the entire floor
for the entire single level house and around the outside of
the house so you can stand on that to do the barge boards
and eaves and gutters etc.

Why can't you afford to get someone iun to do it ?
Why do most of these jobs require 2+ people.



than pay for people already skilled in those areas.

I did that with some stuff. When I asked the plant hire place
what was the best way to clear the block initially, she said
that the best thing to use was a full road grader. She was
right, the ****ing thing was almost half as long as the
entire block of land but a couple of passes over the block
and it was all done. Cost me peanuts because it was so quick.

So you hired the professnal tool rather than build one yourself.

On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 19:16:08 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 19:39:53 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 20:51:00 UTC, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account..
DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is
most likely
uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on
using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The
idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Today I fixed a microwave. Insulation on HT wires had broken down.
Patched it up, all done in about 20 minutes. It would cost at least £20
to replace, probably more, so that's £60+ per hour. And it saved me time,
it would take longer to find/buy/collect one, then dispose of the old
one.

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29 per
test

Only someone as stupid as you would go that route.

No only manamgment or accountants would take that route.

I get told that the testers are coming in to test all our electrical equipment and the get it ready for them where possible, so that's what I do.
I've been telling management for the past two years that we don;t really need everything testing but they seem to think the professional approach and the ensure H&S iit to employ tester to stick stickers on the plugs and equipment then if anything goes wrong we know who to blame, but I dont think mamangment have a clue but it's their job.
If yuo look it up you'll find that admin here uses the Peter Principle system.



or buy new ones what do you do ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-co...cordsets-72094

On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 15:16:43 UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 19:39:53 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 20:51:00 UTC, tabbypurr wrote:

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Today I fixed a microwave. Insulation on HT wires had broken down. Patched it up, all done in about 20 minutes. It would cost at least £20 to replace, probably more, so that's £60+ per hour. And it saved me time, it would take longer to find/buy/collect one, then dispose of the old one.

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29 per test
or buy new ones what do you do ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-co...cordsets-72094

What a braindead question. Get some coffee!


NT

whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote

So what did you do.

I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

Yes I know, but I didn't have the tools to do it

Cost a lot less to buy them than to pay someone else to do it all.

No it doesn't

Corse it does with scaffolding. You need **** all
tools, just a spanner or a ratchet handle and socket.

But you also need the scafolding and the ladders don't you.
These don't normally grow on trees or appear out of thin air.

That was discussing your stupid claims
about the number of men and tools.

If you buy the scaffolding and ladders used and flog them
once the job is done, that costs you nothing except your time.

othertwise the roofing contractors would have their own scaffolders

They don't because of the law on qualifications and
because it matters how long the scaffolding takes to
erect. None of which appys when you are DIYing it.

yes it does

No it doesn't.

because if it takes me longer to erect scaffolding on my own
than in does with 3 people doing it why doesn;t it matter?

Because you will just be veging out in front of the TV
or down the pub if you weren't doing the scaffolding.

But you really believe it would be cheaper for me to buy
or hire a scaffild lorry leant how to drive it (HGV I believe)

That isnt how you DIY scaffolding.

So how do you DIY scaffolding ?

Just put it together using nothing more than a ladder and a spanner.

When I built my house from scratch on a bare block
of land, I used free used 44 gallon drums with planks
on for the block laying of the walls.

Not allowed to do that in teh UK thre's regulations.

Bull**** you aren't. And it is trivially easy to weld up some
square frames out of 25mm RHS instead of the drums too.

Once the walls were done and I need to DIY the roof, I welded
up a 6x4' frame out of 25mm RHS which has my circular saw
in a DIY cutoff saw that I use for cutting RHS and timber. That
has another 4x4' 25mm RHS frame that slots in above the
cutoff saw with the saw inside that. There are a couple of
wooden platforms that drop onto the top of the RHS frames
and the whole thing has wheels at just one end. That runs
around on the concrete slab that comprises the entire floor
for the entire single level house and around the outside of
the house so you can stand on that to do the barge boards
and eaves and gutters etc.

Why can't you afford to get someone iun to do it ?

I could but wasn't stupid enough to do that.

Why do most of these jobs require 2+ people.

Very few of them do.

With the ****ing great lengths of 5x3x0.5" RHS that
run the entire 100' length of the N and S sides of the
house, and which sit on the vertical 4x2" RHS posts
that are on either side of the 13 8'x8' patio doors,
I used a sheer legs made from 3 lengths of 4"x4"x10'
timber and a boat winch. Did that entirely alone.

The 5x3x0.5" RHS tops of the walls are that thick
because that was all I could get at the time in 5x3"
RHS due to steel shortage.

With the galvanised sheet metal I beams that are
welded to those 5x3x0.5" rails on the tops of the
walls all you have to do is lift one end off the
ground onto the 5x3x0.5" rail and then go to
the other end and push the I beam up until it
overbalances and then run it across onto the
5x3x0.5" rail on the other side of the house
and then weld it on. Trivially easy to do alone.

than pay for people already skilled in those areas.

I did that with some stuff. When I asked the plant hire place
what was the best way to clear the block initially, she said
that the best thing to use was a full road grader. She was
right, the ****ing thing was almost half as long as the
entire block of land but a couple of passes over the block
and it was all done. Cost me peanuts because it was so quick.

So you hired the professnal tool rather than build one yourself.

Just for that where it made sense to do that.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 19:16:08 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 19:39:53 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 20:51:00 UTC, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article
,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into
account.
DIY repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job
is
most likely uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can
cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on
using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some
solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The
idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Today I fixed a microwave. Insulation on HT wires had broken down.
Patched it up, all done in about 20 minutes. It would cost at least
£20
to replace, probably more, so that's £60+ per hour. And it saved me
time,
it would take longer to find/buy/collect one, then dispose of the old
one.

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29
per
test

Only someone as stupid as you would go that route.

No only manamgment or accountants would take that route.

I get told that the testers are coming in to test all our electrical
equipment
and the get it ready for them where possible, so that's what I do.

Doesn't happen when fixing your own microwave at home.

I've been telling management for the past two years that
we don;t really need everything testing but they seem to
think the professional approach and the ensure H&S iit to
employ tester to stick stickers on the plugs and equipment
then if anything goes wrong we know who to blame, but
I dont think mamangment have a clue but it's their job.

I just did what made sense and management never got any
say at all.

If yuo look it up you'll find that admin here uses the Peter Principle
system.

So anyone with even half a clue doesn't let them get any say.

While in theory we were supposed to put out to tender
the more expensive purchases, it was in fact trivially
easy to drive a full carrier battle group thru that
system and I didn't do anything like that, ever.

or buy new ones what do you do ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-co...cordsets-72094

On Thursday, 31 March 2016 19:53:37 UTC+1, wrote:
On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 15:16:43 UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 19:39:53 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 20:51:00 UTC, tabbypurr wrote:

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics.. The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Today I fixed a microwave. Insulation on HT wires had broken down. Patched it up, all done in about 20 minutes. It would cost at least £20 to replace, probably more, so that's £60+ per hour. And it saved me time, it would take longer to find/buy/collect one, then dispose of the old one.

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29 per test
or buy new ones what do you do ?
http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-co...cordsets-72094

What a braindead question. Get some coffee!



So answer it, unless you're too brain-dead to.

On Thursday, 31 March 2016 22:04:35 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote

So what did you do.

I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

Yes I know, but I didn't have the tools to do it

Cost a lot less to buy them than to pay someone else to do it all.

No it doesn't

Corse it does with scaffolding. You need **** all
tools, just a spanner or a ratchet handle and socket.

But you also need the scafolding and the ladders don't you.
These don't normally grow on trees or appear out of thin air.

That was discussing your stupid claims
about the number of men and tools.

What stupid claims, that you sometimes need two people when doing contruction type jobs.....
I wonder why they employed more than one person to build the pyramids,
seems strange doesn't it.


If you buy the scaffolding and ladders used and flog them
once the job is done, that costs you nothing except your time.

Time is money for most, do you buy the lorry to transport them too.
Starnge that the majority of building contractors don;t use the method you suggest I wonder why.



othertwise the roofing contractors would have their own scaffolders

They don't because of the law on qualifications and
because it matters how long the scaffolding takes to
erect. None of which appys when you are DIYing it.

yes it does

No it doesn't.

of course it does you moron, just with anythimg else you say you bake you're own bread, I bet you don't make mthe flour yourself.



because if it takes me longer to erect scaffolding on my own
than in does with 3 people doing it why doesn;t it matter?

Because you will just be veging out in front of the TV
or down the pub if you weren't doing the scaffolding.

Or making far more money that some clueess person trying to work out which way up the grain is on a door.



But you really believe it would be cheaper for me to buy
or hire a scaffild lorry leant how to drive it (HGV I believe)

That isnt how you DIY scaffolding.

So how do you DIY scaffolding ?

Just put it together using nothing more than a ladder and a spanner.

Then why do we have componies specialsing in doing that for you if it's more efficient to DIY.
For the same reason we buy loaves of bread in supermarkets.
For the same reason most buy bikes cars boats while other build them.




When I built my house from scratch on a bare block
of land, I used free used 44 gallon drums with planks
on for the block laying of the walls.

Not allowed to do that in teh UK thre's regulations.

Bull**** you aren't. And it is trivially easy to weld up some
square frames out of 25mm RHS instead of the drums too.

we have building regulations here in teh UK.



Once the walls were done and I need to DIY the roof, I welded
up a 6x4' frame out of 25mm RHS which has my circular saw
in a DIY cutoff saw that I use for cutting RHS and timber. That
has another 4x4' 25mm RHS frame that slots in above the
cutoff saw with the saw inside that. There are a couple of
wooden platforms that drop onto the top of the RHS frames
and the whole thing has wheels at just one end. That runs
around on the concrete slab that comprises the entire floor
for the entire single level house and around the outside of
the house so you can stand on that to do the barge boards
and eaves and gutters etc.

Why can't you afford to get someone iun to do it ?

I could but wasn't stupid enough to do that.

Why do most of these jobs require 2+ people.

Very few of them do.

With the ****ing great lengths of 5x3x0.5" RHS that
run the entire 100' length of the N and S sides of the
house, and which sit on the vertical 4x2" RHS posts
that are on either side of the 13 8'x8' patio doors,
I used a sheer legs made from 3 lengths of 4"x4"x10'
timber and a boat winch. Did that entirely alone.

God created heaven and the Earth in six days all on his own.
if he'd had some help he could have got it done in less time.



The 5x3x0.5" RHS tops of the walls are that thick
because that was all I could get at the time in 5x3"
RHS due to steel shortage.

What you couldn;t make you're own steel and cut it to the lengh you want,
not very DIY is it.


With the galvanised sheet metal I beams that are
welded to those 5x3x0.5" rails on the tops of the
walls all you have to do is lift one end off the
ground onto the 5x3x0.5" rail and then go to
the other end and push the I beam up until it
overbalances and then run it across onto the
5x3x0.5" rail on the other side of the house
and then weld it on. Trivially easy to do alone.

Yep and some surgeons could aneathatise their own patients too,
and they could wipe their arse for them.....

So in most jobs we use grunts for heavy lifting or those that
have more developed muscles in their bodies than their brain.



than pay for people already skilled in those areas.

I did that with some stuff. When I asked the plant hire place
what was the best way to clear the block initially, she said
that the best thing to use was a full road grader. She was
right, the ****ing thing was almost half as long as the
entire block of land but a couple of passes over the block
and it was all done. Cost me peanuts because it was so quick.

So you hired the professnal tool rather than build one yourself.

Just for that where it made sense to do that.

Most people do that most of the time, it the reason most of us aren't all out planting wheat in fields so we can bake own own beard, we have a more evolved and productive life cycle than you do.

On Thursday, 31 March 2016 22:11:04 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:



Doesn't happen when fixing your own microwave at home.

depends what you mean by fixing doesn't it.

So how do you test a HV microwave diode, and where do you buy a replacement
microwave unit or do you make your own.



I've been telling management for the past two years that
we don;t really need everything testing but they seem to
think the professional approach and the ensure H&S iit to
employ tester to stick stickers on the plugs and equipment
then if anything goes wrong we know who to blame, but
I dont think mamangment have a clue but it's their job.

I just did what made sense and management never got any
say at all.

Is that how you built yuor house.


If yuo look it up you'll find that admin here uses the Peter Principle
system.

So anyone with even half a clue doesn't let them get any say.

I'm not in charge of managment, I don't employ them.


While in theory we were supposed to put out to tender
the more expensive purchases, it was in fact trivially
easy to drive a full carrier battle group thru that
system and I didn't do anything like that, ever.

any fool can break a system.

whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote

So what did you do.

I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

Yes I know, but I didn't have the tools to do it

Cost a lot less to buy them than to pay someone else to do it all.

No it doesn't

Corse it does with scaffolding. You need **** all
tools, just a spanner or a ratchet handle and socket.

But you also need the scafolding and the ladders don't you.
These don't normally grow on trees or appear out of thin air.

That was discussing your stupid claims
about the number of men and tools.

What stupid claims,

The one above.

that you sometimes need two people when doing contruction type jobs.....

Not with the scaffolding being discussed and when you do paying
someone to do the work isnt the only alternative anyway.

reams of your silly stuff flushed where it belongs

If you buy the scaffolding and ladders used and flog them
once the job is done, that costs you nothing except your time.

Time is money for most,

Not with DIY it isnt.

Starnge that the majority of building contractors
don;t use the method you suggest I wonder why.

What makes sense for a building contractor
is irrelevant to what makes sense for DIY.

And since this is the best you can manage, here
goes the chain on the rest of your even sillier ****.

whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into
account. DIY repairs can be worth doing, but paying
someone do to the job is most likely uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can
cost effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on
using for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some
solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics.
The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Today I fixed a microwave. Insulation on HT wires had broken down.
Patched it up, all done in about 20 minutes. It would cost at least
£20
to replace, probably more, so that's £60+ per hour. And it saved me
time, it would take longer to find/buy/collect one, then dispose of
the old one.

You have a choice get a dozen of these electrically tested for £1.29
per test

Only someone as stupid as you would go that route.

No only manamgment or accountants would take that route.

I get told that the testers are coming in to test all
our electrical equipment and the get it ready for
them where possible, so that's what I do.

Doesn't happen when fixing your own microwave at home.

depends what you mean by fixing doesn't it.

Nope.

So how do you test a HV microwave diode,

If it looks like it likely is the problem, you replace it
and see if that fixes the problem. Even someone as
stupid as you should be able to work that one out
if someone was actually stupid enough to lend you
a seeing eye dog and a white cane.

and where do you buy a replacement
microwave unit or do you make your own.

I've been telling management for the past two years that
we don;t really need everything testing but they seem to
think the professional approach and the ensure H&S iit to
employ tester to stick stickers on the plugs and equipment
then if anything goes wrong we know who to blame, but
I dont think mamangment have a clue but it's their job.

I just did what made sense and management never got any say at all.

Is that how you built yuor house.

That is how I operated at work. You're too
stupid to do that ? Your problem, as always.

If yuo look it up you'll find that admin
here uses the Peter Principle system.

So anyone with even half a clue doesn't let them get any say.

I'm not in charge of managment, I don't employ them.

You do get to do an end run around their terminal stupiditys
if you have even half a clue and aren't just cleaning the dunnys.

While in theory we were supposed to put out to tender
the more expensive purchases, it was in fact trivially
easy to drive a full carrier battle group thru that
system and I didn't do anything like that, ever.

any fool can break a system.

Only fools do what is completely stupid. You clearly qualify.

On 30/03/2016 10:50, Tim Streater wrote:

The way you wrote your previous post appeared to imply that a user
could not have more than one file of the same name. With the file
systems we have today, I can have files called wiggy in several
different folders.

I just wanted to avoid unnecessary detail. And in one sense, that is
right, a single user cannot have more than one file of the same name
unless they change the hierarchical location or some other aspect such
as generation number.

The file system includes its version of folders - called groups.

:user.group1/group2/group3.file(generation,language code,version)

You can have wiggy directly under the user, in any level of group, with
any number of generations, language codes and versions. (Ignoring
libraries which are a slightly special case. Also ignoring sub-users.)

--
Rod

On 30/03/2016 12:43, John Rumm wrote:

VMS also used a file generation counter - so if you edited and saved
myfile.pas it would be myfile.pas;1, then each successive edit would
increment the version. Hence you could wither leave the version off the
file and get the latest, or specify any previous version explicitly.

Very, very handy!

Particularly useful in "the old days" of batch processing where the
generation numbers could code the run number.

Also rather good for encoding versions of software - for example, all
files associated with release 5 could have generation number 5000 -
allowing a thousand variants for fixes, etc.

--
Rod

On 29/03/2016 00:52, T i m wrote:
(From memory and basically ...)

The FileAllocationTable(s) hold records that point to the first
segment of a file that in turn links to the next.

NTFS uses MasterFileTable(s?) that hold records of all the segments
that make up each file (and hold the actual files when small enough).

So with FAT ('only' FAT16 possibly) if you lose the content of one
segment of a multi-segment file you could / would lose access to all
subsequent parts.

With NTFS / MFT if you lose the content of one segment of a multi
segment file you just lose that segment (that you are less likely to
do because of journaling).

Or something like that, it's been a while.;-)

It has been a while :P

The MFT is the thing on the front of the disc that tells you where all
the partitions are. You can have FAT, NTFS, or even ReiserFS partitions
inside it.

I don't actually know the NTFS structure.

Andy

On 29/03/2016 14:24, John Rumm wrote:
FAT was basically just a formalisation of what was inherited from
CP/M... it was not until MS hired a patent lawyer with the intention of
finding new way to monetise old intellectual property, that FAT was even
really acknowledged as being an item rather than just a bit of
technology that loads of people used. It main goal was simplicity and
lightweight implementation - as was demanded by the needs of the time.

This turns out not to be the case.

CP/M discs had a set of directory entries for the files. Each entry had
a few (8?) clusters described in it; if the file was big it had multiple
directory entries.

One of the boot up tasks for CP/M was to read all the entries, and build
a free space bitmap in memory. No need for chkdsk to find lost bits.

Andy

On 29/03/2016 23:08, Tim Streater wrote:

That Windows uses drive letters is not FUD. It's a FACT that turns up
and irritates those of us who don't need them on other OSes but are
forced to take note of them when we are unlucky enough to encounter
Windows.

You don't have to use drive letters. You can mount your drives in empty
folders. Oddly a lot of people don't seem to like that.

Andy

On 30/03/2016 00:09, Tim Streater wrote:

Meaning you couldn't have more than one file of a particular name?

No.

Both VME operating systems had the same treed folder structure. To a
user it looks like Unix file systems.

Andy
--
My first job was on VME/K

On Fri, 1 Apr 2016 21:09:38 +0100, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 29/03/2016 00:52, T i m wrote:
(From memory and basically ...)

The FileAllocationTable(s) hold records that point to the first
segment of a file that in turn links to the next.

NTFS uses MasterFileTable(s?) that hold records of all the segments
that make up each file (and hold the actual files when small enough).

So with FAT ('only' FAT16 possibly) if you lose the content of one
segment of a multi-segment file you could / would lose access to all
subsequent parts.

With NTFS / MFT if you lose the content of one segment of a multi
segment file you just lose that segment (that you are less likely to
do because of journaling).

Or something like that, it's been a while.;-)

It has been a while :P

The MFT is the thing on the front of the disc that tells you where all
the partitions are.

I thought that was the 'partition table' Andy?

You can have FAT, NTFS, or even ReiserFS partitions
inside it.

Yes, that sounds like the partition table?

I don't actually know the NTFS structure.

Nor do I, other than the very basics and how it differs from FAT for
example.

Cheers, T i m

On 01/04/2016 21:11, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 29/03/2016 14:24, John Rumm wrote:
FAT was basically just a formalisation of what was inherited from
CP/M... it was not until MS hired a patent lawyer with the intention of
finding new way to monetise old intellectual property, that FAT was even
really acknowledged as being an item rather than just a bit of
technology that loads of people used. It main goal was simplicity and
lightweight implementation - as was demanded by the needs of the time.

This turns out not to be the case.

CP/M discs had a set of directory entries for the files. Each entry had
a few (8?) clusters described in it; if the file was big it had multiple
directory entries.

One of the boot up tasks for CP/M was to read all the entries, and build
a free space bitmap in memory. No need for chkdsk to find lost bits.

ISTR that the CP/M+ and CP/M 86 versions were fairly similar to FAT
(FAT pre directories) - although CP/M plus had a concept of "users"
(i.e. a set of predefined separate directories).

--
Cheers,

John.

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