In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 11:43, Bill Wright wrote:
On 23/03/2016 09:51, RJH wrote:

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single household tool
proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

Just an ideologically left-wing way of putting the toolhire companies
out of business.

Not even sure it would do that. Its a nice idea, but its questionable
how well it can work in reality. I can see that it will make available a
large pool of low quality cheap tools. (let's face it, if you are buying
top quality kit, are you likely to lend it to just anyone without having
a reasonable idea that they will treat it well and return it in good
condition?)

I remember many years ago at an amateur theatre seeing someone rummaging in
my tool box. "What are you looking for?" "A chisel." Ok, I had a couple
in quite good condition - "So what do you need it for?" "I need to open
tin of paint"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 23/03/2016 11:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 09:51:31 UTC, RJH wrote:
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should not
DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the environmental
movement?

Bill

I do, but it needs working at.

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single household tool
proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

DIY on its own as it stands probably wastes more than it saves.

Also, skill sharing. IMHO DIY gets bodged because the DIYer doesn't have
the time/experience to get up to speed. It often takes me three or four
times to get things even remotely right,

if it take you 4 times longer I can only assume you do it for fun. ;-)


Yep - curiously, I actually enjoy it and find it relaxing.

So why don't people get pros in... the answer is usually cost.


Not in my case, or I suspect many others. But that does bring into
question whether 'It' needs doing in the first place ;-)


whereas some things seem more
natural. So share skills:

https://www.impossible.com

(don't know anything about them, but does seem to organise the principle
of skill sharing)

Really , just seemed like an expensive place to shop.

£70 for an ipad case ! that's even more than Aple charge !

http://shop.impossible.com/collectio...hose-ipad-case


Rather missing the point - but it was more the skills exchange side of
it that I was looking at.


And then there's the issue of putting trades people out of work.

Not just trades peolpe but what of all those economic migrants looking for work or ayslum seekers who don't want benifits but want to work. :-)


Yes, that's what I meant: people working in the building trade.


--
Cheers, Rob

On 23/03/2016 11:43, Bill Wright wrote:
On 23/03/2016 09:51, RJH wrote:

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single household tool
proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

Just an ideologically left-wing way of putting the toolhire companies
out of business.


Er, sharing a drill and a few spanners - it not supposed to cover 'plant'.


--
Cheers, Rob

On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:40:26 +0000, michael adams wrote:

With modern moulded composition soles i.e around 90%
of Clarks shoes nowadays, never mind the cheap end of the market, proper
repair is impossible as they're made as a unit.

I had a pair of Ecco shoes with moulded one piece soles re-heeled last
year by one of those key cutter/shoe mender shops and he did a great job
and they're still in good nick.

--
TOJ.

"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 04:38:40 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should not
DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the environmental
movement?

Yes. It is. There are many environmental groups running "Repair Cafes"
and similar.

Of course, from the point of view of the environment, there is no
particular
advantage to ripping out that three year old kitchen yourself as opposed
to
paying a builder to do it for you.

In fact a real advantage in getting the builder to do if for you
because presumably they have had a lot more experience in
doing that and will do it much more efficiently and wont have
to get tools to do it that don't get used again etc.

OTOH the builder does have to travel to there and home afterwards,
but that is likely to be less travelling than with the DIYer continually
running down the shed to get something they didn't think of before.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 09:51:31 UTC, RJH wrote:
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should
not
DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the
environmental
movement?

Bill

I do, but it needs working at.

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single household tool
proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

DIY on its own as it stands probably wastes more than it saves.

Also, skill sharing. IMHO DIY gets bodged because the DIYer doesn't have
the time/experience to get up to speed. It often takes me three or four
times to get things even remotely right,

if it take you 4 times longer I can only assume you do it for fun. ;-)

So why don't people get pros in... the answer is usually cost.

I do it myself because I get a better result because
the time doesn't cost me anything and I can do
whatever it takes to get the best result in the end.

Same with work on the car etc.

whereas some things seem more
natural. So share skills:

https://www.impossible.com

(don't know anything about them, but does seem to organise the principle
of skill sharing)

Really , just seemed like an expensive place to shop.

£70 for an ipad case ! that's even more than Aple charge !

http://shop.impossible.com/collectio...hose-ipad-case


And then there's the issue of putting trades people out of work.

Not just trades peolpe but what of all those economic migrants looking
for work or ayslum seekers who don't want benifits but want to work. :-)

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 11:58:35 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 23/03/16 11:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 09:51:31 UTC, RJH wrote:
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should
not
DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the
environmental
movement?

Bill

I do, but it needs working at.

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single household tool
proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

DIY on its own as it stands probably wastes more than it saves.

Also, skill sharing. IMHO DIY gets bodged because the DIYer doesn't
have
the time/experience to get up to speed. It often takes me three or
four
times to get things even remotely right,

if it take you 4 times longer I can only assume you do it for fun. ;-)

So why don't people get pros in... the answer is usually cost.

More the aggravation.

A good pro is like gold.

Well a good pro is something else.


Most (9/10ths when I was looking to have my roof retiled) either don't
turn up, charge silly money, cancel at the last minute or just talk
bull**** and look crap.

So what did you do.
I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and
I doubt I could put it up by myself, otherwise the
scaffolding company wouldn;t be employing 3 people
to do it but would just employ one person wouldn't they ?

Just because its more efficient to have 3 people do it when
you are doing it professionally doesn't mean that you can't
do it yourself when you don't care about how long it takes.

There are a few things like pouring a massive great concrete
slab where it isnt possible for one person to do it themselves,
but there aren't that many of those situations with houses.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
I had to have pros in as I don't own scaffolding and I doubt I could
put it up by myself,

Yes you could. In principle anyway.

otherwise the scaffolding company wouldn;t be
employing 3 people to do it but would just employ
one person wouldn't they ?


The reason scaffolding companies employ 3 people is
simply because it's more than 3 times as quick doing
it that way. That's simply because with one person
they're forever climbing up and down the ladder to
secure both ends

But providing you used a hoist as you went there's
no reason you couldn't do it all on your own. Fred
Dibnah used to hoist scaffold boards to the tops of
200ft mill chimneys to give himself a platform to work
from. Mind you he didn't have to climb down 200ft every
time to lash up the next load.


michael adams

....

whisky-dave wrote
wrote

That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of what's
faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much isn't.

Does anyone get thier shoes repaired anymore.

There is one operation in my town that does that.

Seen wuite a few mobile phone case shops doing key cutting
PC & Mac repairs and shoe repairs all from one shop.

Never seen that here. Forget what else the shoe
repairer does, but it certainly isnt what you listed.

In article ,
michael adams wrote:
But providing you used a hoist as you went there's
no reason you couldn't do it all on your own. Fred
Dibnah used to hoist scaffold boards to the tops of
200ft mill chimneys to give himself a platform to work
from. Mind you he didn't have to climb down 200ft every
time to lash up the next load.

Oddly it's one thing TV always got pros in for. Scaffolding in a TV studio
as part of the set. No matter how simple or small. I was told it's because
the scaffold companies had their own insurance. Yet our own chippies would
build things sometimes much larger.

--
*i souport publik edekashun.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/03/16 18:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
michael adams wrote:
But providing you used a hoist as you went there's
no reason you couldn't do it all on your own. Fred
Dibnah used to hoist scaffold boards to the tops of
200ft mill chimneys to give himself a platform to work
from. Mind you he didn't have to climb down 200ft every
time to lash up the next load.

Oddly it's one thing TV always got pros in for. Scaffolding in a TV studio
as part of the set. No matter how simple or small. I was told it's because
the scaffold companies had their own insurance. Yet our own chippies would
build things sometimes much larger.


BBC?

Does seem rather silly that there weren't a permanent scaffolding team
(who could do other at-height work when not scaffolding)....

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should
not DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the
environmental movement?

It must present an interesting conflict for many a green... on the one
hand it is a very good fit with the political ideology, and yet on the
other the knowledge requirements and attention to detail required are
likely to be counter to the (lack of) thought process that makes much
green policy seem even plausible in the first place.

Very true with some.

Have a pal who is into 'green' Replaced his Mini which he'd bought new and
had done few miles (9,000 in 3 years) with an electric Smart car.


Now was that a Mini or a BMW?



--
Adam

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
michael adams wrote:
But providing you used a hoist as you went there's
no reason you couldn't do it all on your own. Fred
Dibnah used to hoist scaffold boards to the tops of
200ft mill chimneys to give himself a platform to work
from. Mind you he didn't have to climb down 200ft every
time to lash up the next load.

Oddly it's one thing TV always got pros in for. Scaffolding in a TV studio
as part of the set. No matter how simple or small. I was told it's because
the scaffold companies had their own insurance. Yet our own chippies would
build things sometimes much larger.

Things like H&S tend to mean you need to use those with suitable
accreditation.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 14:10:36 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 13:27:45 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:

In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy,
should not DIY, especially the repair of goods,

As far as repairing goods is concerned, the whole point of mass
production certainly since the Industrial Revolutiin is to
manufacture and assemble all goods as far as possible by machine
with as little labour input as possible. As its this that makes
goods so cheap in the first place.

Given economies of scale and labour costs its usually far more
economic to manufacture a new item from scratch than it is to train
up technicians to disassemble, diagnose and repair faults, maintain
an inventory of spares etc.Especially when new models might be
introduced on an annual basis.

That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of
what's faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much isn't.

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account. DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most
likely uneconomic.

like I said it's often worthwhile. But we live in a throowaway culture
and repair places aren't set up for it, they haven't moved with the times.


But, things have become far more specialised. Instead of "a kettle
element", a repair place would probably need half a dozen different types.

They'd only need to buy one. Not that one would repair a kettle now.


NT

In message , charles
writes

I remember many years ago at an amateur theatre seeing someone rummaging in
my tool box. "What are you looking for?" "A chisel." Ok, I had a couple
in quite good condition - "So what do you need it for?" "I need to open
tin of paint"

I remember chuckling at an early H&S notice displaying someone opening a
tin of paint with a screwdriver. I still wonder what they thought you
should use.


--
Tim Lamb

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 14:45:21 UTC, michael adams wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 13:27:45 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:

That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of what's
faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much isn't.

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account. DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most likely
uneconomic.

like I said it's often worthwhile.

Its only "worthwhile" if the persoin doing it isn't costing their
time.

incorrect

But we live in a throowaway culture and repair places aren't set
up for it, they haven't moved with the times.

But that's assuming that whatever it is is repairable in
the first place.

Such assumptions need not be made. Effective triage is an area that traditional repair shops have failed to implement satisfactorily.


Many things such as headlights in many cars
and many similar "sealed units" are so designed as to be
impossible to dismantle let alone repair. And even with things

many things are.

which can be repaired, assuming that the correct parts are
available - a problem which appears to beset even many
washing machines and boiler "specialists",by the time

Correct parts are available for many items, and nonoriginal part designs can be used in many too.

the item has been dis-assembled, the fault diagnosed
and repaired it will often have been cheaper for the
repair place to supply a replacement unit instead.

obviously a competent repair shop would not choose to do that with items where it is not likely to be worthwhile.

It simply isn't economical except for people doing it as
a hobby.

rubbish. I repair things when it's worthwhile, and sometimes it still is. I accept it's a popular opinion though.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 14:10:36 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 13:27:45 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:

In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy,
should not DIY, especially the repair of goods,

As far as repairing goods is concerned, the whole point of mass
production certainly since the Industrial Revolutiin is to
manufacture and assemble all goods as far as possible by machine
with as little labour input as possible. As its this that makes
goods so cheap in the first place.

Given economies of scale and labour costs its usually far more
economic to manufacture a new item from scratch than it is to
train
up technicians to disassemble, diagnose and repair faults,
maintain
an inventory of spares etc.Especially when new models might be
introduced on an annual basis.

That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of
what's faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much
isn't.

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account.
DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most
likely uneconomic.

like I said it's often worthwhile. But we live in a throowaway culture
and repair places aren't set up for it, they haven't moved with the
times.


But, things have become far more specialised. Instead of "a kettle
element", a repair place would probably need half a dozen different
types.

They'd only need to buy one.

Pity about the lack of those selling spare elements.

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account. DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most likely
uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.


NT

Tim Lamb wrote:
I remember chuckling at an early H&S notice displaying someone opening a
tin of paint with a screwdriver. I still wonder what they thought you
should use.

I use an old blunt chisel specifically put to one side for that purpose,
but it's my tool box so I know what it's there for.

jgh

On 23/03/16 20:39, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , charles
writes

I remember many years ago at an amateur theatre seeing someone
rummaging in
my tool box. "What are you looking for?" "A chisel." Ok, I had a
couple
in quite good condition - "So what do you need it for?" "I need to open
tin of paint"

I remember chuckling at an early H&S notice displaying someone opening a
tin of paint with a screwdriver. I still wonder what they thought you
should use.


Pry bar?

--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

In article ,
wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
I remember chuckling at an early H&S notice displaying someone opening
a tin of paint with a screwdriver. I still wonder what they thought
you should use.

I use an old blunt chisel specifically put to one side for that purpose,
but it's my tool box so I know what it's there for.

Of course, you coulld alwsys buy a paint tin opener ;-)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 23/03/16 20:50, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account. DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most likely
uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.



Well at a minimum wage of what - £7.50 and hour, if you cant do it in
less than a couple of hours, it ain't worth it.

Not with the overhead of managing the customer and premises.

NT





--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

On 23/03/16 22:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/03/16 20:39, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , charles
writes

I remember many years ago at an amateur theatre seeing someone
rummaging in
my tool box. "What are you looking for?" "A chisel." Ok, I had a
couple
in quite good condition - "So what do you need it for?" "I need to open
tin of paint"

I remember chuckling at an early H&S notice displaying someone opening a
tin of paint with a screwdriver. I still wonder what they thought you
should use.


Pry bar?


Angle grinder.

In article ,
Martin Bonner writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 04:38:40 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should not
DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the environmental
movement?

Yes. It is. There are many environmental groups running "Repair Cafes"
and similar.

Yes, I work with to of them...
The Restart Project, based in London but spreading nationally and abroad.
The Reading Repair Cafe, run by the local makerspace (RLab).

I find it really rewarding to show people how to repair their broken
appliances. You never know what's going to turn up, so it's an unknown
challenge.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 22:40:11 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/03/16 20:50, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account. DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most likely
uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Well at a minimum wage of what - £7.50 and hour, if you cant do it in
less than a couple of hours, it ain't worth it.

Not with the overhead of managing the customer and premises.

When did you last see an electronic repairer working for minimum wage? How did you decide repairs are all worth 2 hours labour + business overheads?


NT

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The
idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.



Well at a minimum wage of what - £7.50 and hour, if you cant do it in
less than a couple of hours, it ain't worth it.

Only one totally out of touch would think you'd get a competent repair
tech for the minimum wage.

--
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 24/03/2016 01:02, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The
idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Well at a minimum wage of what - £7.50 and hour, if you cant do it in
less than a couple of hours, it ain't worth it.

Only one totally out of touch would think you'd get a competent repair
tech for the minimum wage.

Which supports his argument.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics.
The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Well at a minimum wage of what - £7.50 and hour, if you
cant do it in less than a couple of hours, it ain't worth it.

Only one totally out of touch would think you'd
get a competent repair tech for the minimum wage.

Only a terminal ****wit such as yourself wouldn't have
noticed that someone working for themselves is quite
capable of being a competent repair tech and now that
so many choose to just buy a new one, may well not
earn the minimum wage with some jobs.

On 23/03/2016 12:30, wrote:

That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of what's faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much isn't.

I threw some carrots away today. The structural decay was widespread so
I decided they were beyond repair.

Bill

On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:35:04 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 14:10:36 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 13:27:45 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:

In the interests of the conservation of materials and
energy,
should not DIY, especially the repair of goods,

As far as repairing goods is concerned, the whole point of mass
production certainly since the Industrial Revolution is to
manufacture and assemble all goods as far as possible by
machine with as little labour input as possible. As its this
that makes goods so cheap in the first place.

Given economies of scale and labour costs its usually far more
economic to manufacture a new item from scratch than it is to
train up technicians to disassemble, diagnose and repair
faults, maintain an inventory of spares etc.Especially when new
models might be introduced on an annual basis.

That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of
what's faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much
isn't.

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account.
DIY repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is
most likely uneconomic.

In that case, it wouldn't be DIY then, would it?


like I said it's often worthwhile. But we live in a throwaway
culture and repair places aren't set up for it, they haven't moved
with the times.


But, things have become far more specialised. Instead of "a kettle
element", a repair place would probably need half a dozen different
types.

Possibly not in the case of 3KW flat elements if my recent experience is
anything to go by. :-)

The problem with electric kettle spares is more to do with holding a
wide enough range of fiddly plastic parts such as the often convoluted
operating lever linkage customised to the various shapes of kettle
dictated by styling requirements that often have no relation to function.


They'd only need to buy one. Not that one would repair a kettle now.


I did! It was a Tesco 3KW plastic jug kettle bought several years ago
for 12 quid less the fiver voucher (almost identical to the Cookworks
Kettle - White 3KW jug we bought in our local Argos store this afternoon,
also for 12 quid less a penny).

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/9098415.htm

The original repair, just over a year ago, involved gluing the wishbone
shaped plastic operating lever back together using thin paxolin splints
with a 2 part epoxy resin glue. It just seemed a disgraceful failure mode
for the sake of not paying the attention to the detail it deserved in its
design (sharp 45 degree bends instead of organic curves to avoid stress
concentration mediated failure - it was just begging to fail).

If it had been an element failure, I wouldn't have bothered trying to
repair it but since it was just a stupid failure amenable to a glue
repair, I repaired it and got another 12 months, possibly longer, before
my repair effort finally wore out a just few months ago.

This time I used a half mm drill and a couple of 8mm lengths of
stainless steel wire to beef up the second glue repair. Unfortunately,
this started acting up again just a few days ago and before I could have
yet another go, SWMBI decided it was time for a new kettle, hence the
visit to Argos today (actually, yesterday as I type this).

Actually, despite the replacement being almost identical in shape to the
black Tesco kettle (the base plates were interchangeable), the subtle
changes seem to have improved the fillability via the spout and also the
pouring action (plus, it's not in need of a replacement spout filter) and
the lid opens up more fully so the extra expense of yet another
replacement kettle did offer some additional benefits over the old one.

However, if I care to take a look at the operating lever linkage, I
doubt I'll see any improvement in its design. I guess I'd best wait for
its one year warranty to expire before taking it apart to "Fix It Before
it Breaks". I'm of the opinion that the saying, "If it aint broke, don't
fix it." is just plain bull****, The saying, "A stitch in time saves
nine." seems more appropriate these days.

Often, close inspection will reveal that a lot of this stuff is already
broken by design and a timely 'repair' (or "Stich in time...") will save
it breaking prematurely in relation to components more vital to the
gadget's primary function, in this case, the 3KW flat plate element.

Redesigning this plastic part so it outlasts the element is unlikely to
add more than a penny to the retail price of the finished product over
the lifetime of its production run. There's really no excuse for such
shabby design and it's an issue that the greens ought to be addressing -
it's more than just electric kettles that exhibit this sort of
shortcoming.

--
Johnny B Good

On 23/03/2016 17:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 09:51, RJH wrote:
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should not
DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the environmental
movement?

Bill

I do, but it needs working at.

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single household tool
proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

Which is fair enough. Although you could also argue that tool hire shops
also fulfil that need.


Yes, of course. But it's more for hand tools that I'd guess you don't
see in hire shops. Things like spanners, spades, and maybe light power
tools like a hammer drill.

DIY on its own as it stands probably wastes more than it saves.

Also, skill sharing. IMHO DIY gets bodged because the DIYer doesn't have
the time/experience to get up to speed. It often takes me three or four
times to get things even remotely right, whereas some things seem more
natural. So share skills:

I thought that is what uk.d-i-y was for (when its not just a tired
audience for harry's islamaphobia)


It is - that's why I'm here, although I'm not so useful on the sharing
bit :-)

https://www.impossible.com

(don't know anything about them, but does seem to organise the principle
of skill sharing)

As do the various maker events and fixit fairs that have sprung up in
recent years.


Ah OK, hadn't heard of them.

And then there's the issue of putting trades people out of work.

DIY is unlikely to put any trades out of work - as the general practical
abilities and time availabilities in the general population fall.


Jeremy Hardy used to do a standup routine, lamenting the flat pack,
putting furniture makers out of business. A certain logic I suppose, but
thinking it through is pretty convoluted. And taken to extremes we
shouldn't be doing a lot of things for fear of putting people out of a
job - cooking our own food, going to the shops, whatever.

There's a point in there somewhere. Not quite sure what it is.

--
Cheers, Rob

"Rod Speed" Wrote in message:
whisky-dave wrote
wrote

That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of what's
faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much isn't.

Does anyone get thier shoes repaired anymore.

There is one operation in my town that does that.

Seen wuite a few mobile phone case shops doing key cutting
PC & Mac repairs and shoe repairs all from one shop.

Never seen that here. Forget what else the shoe
repairer does, but it certainly isnt what you listed.


It's quite common in the UK for shoe repairer and key cutting to
be combined,sometimes with other related retail. There is one in
ocal town that sells bags,wallets etc.


--
--
Chris French


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

a écrit :
That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of what's
faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much isn't.

My list this week, aside from being quite busy with redecorating the
whole house...

1. Desktop PC repaired with a new PSU.
2. 8 year old pressure washer repaired with a replacement lance. I paid
£100 for it new, checked the cost of the same PW at £300 so opted for
a £30 new lance. This is the same PW which had a stuck pressure switch
earlier.
3. Rotted out wooden slats all replaced with new on our cast iron
garden bench at a cost of £15. The entire bench only cost £25 ten years
ago, no doubt it would cost much more now.

There is considerable pleasure to be had, from simply fixing things.

On 23/03/16 19:40, ARW wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should
not DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the
environmental movement?

It must present an interesting conflict for many a green... on the one
hand it is a very good fit with the political ideology, and yet on the
other the knowledge requirements and attention to detail required are
likely to be counter to the (lack of) thought process that makes much
green policy seem even plausible in the first place.

Very true with some.

Have a pal who is into 'green' Replaced his Mini which he'd bought new and
had done few miles (9,000 in 3 years) with an electric Smart car.


Now was that a Mini or a BMW?

Lol! I've always thought that BMW's use of "Mini" for their monstrosity
should be considered an infringement under the Trades Description Act.
And, as far as I can see, with each revised model they are getting
bigger and bigger.

Mind you, have you seen a Fiat 500 recently?!

--

Jeff

In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes
a écrit :
That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of
what's faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much isn't.

My list this week, aside from being quite busy with redecorating the
whole house...

1. Desktop PC repaired with a new PSU.
2. 8 year old pressure washer repaired with a replacement lance. I paid
£100 for it new, checked the cost of the same PW at £300 so opted for
a £30 new lance. This is the same PW which had a stuck pressure switch
earlier.
3. Rotted out wooden slats all replaced with new on our cast iron
garden bench at a cost of £15. The entire bench only cost £25 ten years
ago, no doubt it would cost much more now.

There is considerable pleasure to be had, from simply fixing things.

I have a pair of cast iron? garden seat ends in my scrap pile. They
need a new set of hardwood slats and some cap head screws and nuts. Free
to collector, Hertfordshire.

--
Tim Lamb

On 23/03/16 23:25, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 22:40:11 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/03/16 20:50, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 17:04:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/03/2016 13:31, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 12:07:20 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

There's also the cost of someone's time to be taken into account. DIY
repairs can be worth doing, but paying someone do to the job is most likely
uneconomic.

Indeed, which is why a DIYer with a little bit of knowledge can cost
effectively do many things that are not viable to others.

Just think how many electronic devices one can repair and carry on using
for the cost of a couple of capacitors, 10 minutes and some solder?

Indeed, one can often make / save £50-£100ph fixing electronics. The idea that it ain't worthwhile is just popular myth.

Well at a minimum wage of what - £7.50 and hour, if you cant do it in
less than a couple of hours, it ain't worth it.

Not with the overhead of managing the customer and premises.

When did you last see an electronic repairer working for minimum wage? How did you decide repairs are all worth 2 hours labour + business overheads?


NT

Well, exactly...


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On 24/03/2016 07:20, RJH wrote:
On 23/03/2016 17:17, John Rumm wrote:

DIY is unlikely to put any trades out of work - as the general practical
abilities and time availabilities in the general population fall.

Jeremy Hardy used to do a standup routine, lamenting the flat pack,
putting furniture makers out of business. A certain logic I suppose, but
thinking it through is pretty convoluted. And taken to extremes we
shouldn't be doing a lot of things for fear of putting people out of a
job - cooking our own food, going to the shops, whatever.

There's a point in there somewhere. Not quite sure what it is.

;-)

The irony about flat packs is that many people are now prepared to pay
for a trader to assemble them, as I am sure TMH will be able to attest.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 03:35:29 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 23/03/2016 12:30, tabbypurr wrote:

That's all half true. The reality is a considerable percentage of what's faulty & what's thrown away is worth repairing. And much isn't.

I threw some carrots away today. The structural decay was widespread so
I decided they were beyond repair.

An example of a product where replacing the caps wouldn't have sufficed.


NT

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 09:06:29 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/03/16 19:40, ARW wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Have a pal who is into 'green' Replaced his Mini which he'd bought new and
had done few miles (9,000 in 3 years) with an electric Smart car.


Now was that a Mini or a BMW?

Lol! I've always thought that BMW's use of "Mini" for their monstrosity
should be considered an infringement under the Trades Description Act.
And, as far as I can see, with each revised model they are getting
bigger and bigger.

Mind you, have you seen a Fiat 500 recently?!

In fairness if they copied the original it would be a death trap.


NT

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 18:05:08 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 09:51:31 UTC, RJH wrote:
On 23/03/2016 03:39, Bill Wright wrote:
In the interests of the conservation of materials and energy, should
not
DIY, especially the repair of goods, be a priority for the
environmental
movement?

Bill

I do, but it needs working at.

One of the worst excesses of DIY has to be single household tool
proliferation. So, this sort of thing:

http://www.brighthub.com/environment...les/54244.aspx

DIY on its own as it stands probably wastes more than it saves.

Also, skill sharing. IMHO DIY gets bodged because the DIYer doesn't have
the time/experience to get up to speed. It often takes me three or four
times to get things even remotely right,

if it take you 4 times longer I can only assume you do it for fun. ;-)

So why don't people get pros in... the answer is usually cost.

I do it myself because I get a better result because
the time doesn't cost me anything and I can do
whatever it takes to get the best result in the end.

Well I have a job so it doesnt always make sense to DIY as to me my time is worth money even if I didn't have a job.
Some will spend hours in the garden pottering about, I havent been in mine this year so far.


Same with work on the car etc.

Like your advice to get a pet put down is to buy a stun gun on ebay use it and then resell it where as I'd prefer to take the pet to the RSPCA where they'll do it for noithing or a mall donation which you don't really have to make.
I think my way is better.

whereas some things seem more
natural. So share skills:

https://www.impossible.com

(don't know anything about them, but does seem to organise the principle
of skill sharing)

Really , just seemed like an expensive place to shop.

£70 for an ipad case ! that's even more than Aple charge !

http://shop.impossible.com/collectio...hose-ipad-case


And then there's the issue of putting trades people out of work.

Not just trades peolpe but what of all those economic migrants looking
for work or ayslum seekers who don't want benifits but want to work. :-)