I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2 core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a handheld thing.


NT

On 11 May 2014, grunted:

I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.

Is it just you using it? If so, do you care if it's "permitted", provided
you're happy it's safe?

--
David

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 11:34:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock.
As a short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round
the 2 core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each
end?

I had to google Class 0 appliance ...

Its a handheld thing.

A 'handheld thing' sold before 1975 and that you're too embarrassed to mention on a newsgroup?

Owain

Chuckle. Just one thing to think about. I did this once and the earth wire,
in between cable ties got itself looped around a door handle. I pulled it
and despite it having been sandwiched in the cable grip of the plug, it
pulled free inside, leaving the device, an old drill, unearthed. I fellt the
tickle and left it alone after that. the original drill had had rubber
coatedwire on it and it had perished.
I cannibalised something else for some three core in the ende, A neighbours
buggered up circular saw.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 11:34:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock.
As a short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round
the 2 core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each
end?

I had to google Class 0 appliance ...

Its a handheld thing.

A 'handheld thing' sold before 1975 and that you're too embarrassed to
mention on a newsgroup?

Owain

On 11/05/14 11:34, wrote:
I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.


Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth
earthing).

Do tell - what is it?

Tim Watts wrote:
On 11/05/14 11:34, wrote:
I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.


Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth earthing).

Do tell - what is it?

http://www.vibratormuseum.com/electric/index.html

Maybe? ;-)

Tim

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 2:33:21 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
On 11/05/14 11:34, wrote:

I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.

Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth earthing).
Do tell - what is it?

http://www.vibratormuseum.com/electric/index.html
Maybe? ;-)
Tim

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated, as all T&E is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with 2 core lighting circuits?


NT

wrote:
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 2:33:21 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
On 11/05/14 11:34, wrote:

I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.

Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth earthing).
Do tell - what is it?

http://www.vibratormuseum.com/electric/index.html
Maybe? ;-)
Tim

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette.

My god you pervert!! Google for "Hoover dustette penile injuries". I kid
you not, those things are dangerous!

You wouldn't believe the awful injuries sustained by men who just "fell
over" whilst doing the vacuuming (naked). ;-)

Tim

Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 2:33:21 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
On 11/05/14 11:34, wrote:

I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.

Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth earthing).
Do tell - what is it?

http://www.vibratormuseum.com/electric/index.html
Maybe? ;-)
Tim

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette.

My god you pervert!! Google for "Hoover dustette penile injuries". I kid
you not, those things are dangerous!

You wouldn't believe the awful injuries sustained by men who just "fell
over" whilst doing the vacuuming (naked). ;-)

Tim

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/1220...tml#post130937

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 6:34:01 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 2:33:21 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
On 11/05/14 11:34, wrote:
I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.
Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth earthing).
Do tell - what is it?
http://www.vibratormuseum.com/electric/index.html
Maybe? ;-)
Tim
Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette.
My god you pervert!! Google for "Hoover dustette penile injuries". I kid
you not, those things are dangerous!
You wouldn't believe the awful injuries sustained by men who just "fell
over" whilst doing the vacuuming (naked). ;-)
Tim

Yes, I know about the BMJ article. For anyone that hasnt read it its a real blast of weirdness. The day I heard that was one of those moments I realised just how normal I really am.

Theyre not dangerous... unless you're at the truly freaky end of the spectrum.


NT

On 11/05/2014 14:06, Tim Watts wrote:

Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth
earthing).

Do tell - what is it?

I have an electric drill of that age. Belonged to my Grandfather, who
died in 1983.

TBH I hardly use it these days. Easier to use the cordless...

Andy

wrote:
Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette.

If you're trying to do away with Mrs NT you could at least let her die in pleasure with a Golden-Glo Vitalator.

The Dustette was introduced in the UK in 1930 so yours might be a bit older than 1975 :-)

Owain

On 11/05/14 18:04, wrote:
Hoover Dustette

Are you certain it's Class 0? Just because it has a metal case (I
assume) doesn't mean it can't be Class II

On 11/05/14 18:04, wrote:
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 2:33:21 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
On 11/05/14 11:34, wrote:

I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.

Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth earthing).
Do tell - what is it?

http://www.vibratormuseum.com/electric/index.html
Maybe? ;-)
Tim

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated, as all T&E is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with 2 core lighting circuits?


NT


And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

On 11/05/14 21:24, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 11/05/2014 14:06, Tim Watts wrote:

Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth
earthing).

Do tell - what is it?

I have an electric drill of that age. Belonged to my Grandfather, who
died in 1983.

TBH I hardly use it these days. Easier to use the cordless...

Andy

Again - certain it's Class 0?

In article , Tim Watts
writes

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated, as all T&E
is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with 2 core
lighting circuits?

And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

In contrast, I don't think it would be suitable, particularly for a a
portable appliance. Greater risk of mechanical damage and flexure
failure on the single core. I'd say buy the right stuff and replace the
existing flex.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated, as all T&E
is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with 2 core
lighting circuits?

And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

In contrast, I don't think it would be suitable, particularly for a a
portable appliance. Greater risk of mechanical damage and flexure failure
on the single core. I'd say buy the right stuff and replace the existing flex.

Or get a fleshlight. Much less dangerous. ;-)

Tim

On 11/05/14 23:11, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated,
as all T&E
is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with
2 core
lighting circuits?

And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

In contrast, I don't think it would be suitable, particularly for a a
portable appliance. Greater risk of mechanical damage and flexure
failure on the single core. I'd say buy the right stuff and replace the
existing flex.

This was a portable appliance designed to operate without a CPC (albeit
to an earlier standard).

In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 11/05/14 23:11, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated,
as all T&E
is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with
2 core
lighting circuits?

And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

In contrast, I don't think it would be suitable, particularly for a a
portable appliance. Greater risk of mechanical damage and flexure
failure on the single core. I'd say buy the right stuff and replace the
existing flex.

This was a portable appliance designed to operate without a CPC (albeit
to an earlier standard).

I don't see the relevance, if it needs an earth now then it should be
done with a 3 core flex.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On 12/05/14 09:29, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 11/05/14 23:11, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated,
as all T&E
is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with
2 core
lighting circuits?

And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

In contrast, I don't think it would be suitable, particularly for a a
portable appliance. Greater risk of mechanical damage and flexure
failure on the single core. I'd say buy the right stuff and replace the
existing flex.

This was a portable appliance designed to operate without a CPC (albeit
to an earlier standard).

I don't see the relevance, if it needs an earth now then it should be
done with a 3 core flex.

Perhaps the current flex cannot be easily removed or there is not room
to clamp the additional size of 3 core?

But if so, then I agree with you. However, I'm not getting uptight about
is as all the OP wants to do is add some belt and braces to an item of
equipment that never used to be earthed - it's not exactly a super
critical application.

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 9:41:33 PM UTC+1, wrote:
wrote:

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette.

If you're trying to do away with Mrs NT you could at least let her die in pleasure with a Golden-Glo Vitalator.
The Dustette was introduced in the UK in 1930 so yours might be a bit older than 1975 :-)
Owain

I had no idea how old it was - turns out this is a 1930s one.


NT

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 11:22:02 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 11/05/14 23:11, fred wrote:
In article dionic.net, Tim Watts
dionic.net writes

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated,
as all T&E
is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with
2 core
lighting circuits?

And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

In contrast, I don't think it would be suitable, particularly for a a
portable appliance. Greater risk of mechanical damage and flexure
failure on the single core. I'd say buy the right stuff and replace the
existing flex.

This was a portable appliance designed to operate without a CPC (albeit
to an earlier standard).

I'm not sure if there was much in the way of standards in the 30s, from the appliances I've seen of the era. I know wiring regs were in force for fixed wiring, but some appliances were still being sold with bare live bits back then.

So its getting its first PAT test at around 80 years old. Methinks its overdue. That or the next test is due in 2094.

Being something of a museum piece I'd rather not replace the lead, so adding a CPC may become a long term feature.


NT

On 12/05/14 10:47, wrote:

So its getting its first PAT test at around 80 years old. Methinks
its overdue. That or the next test is due in 2094.

Being something of a museum piece I'd rather not replace the lead, so
adding a CPC may become a long term feature.


Although if the lead is that old (rubber I assume?) is it remotely
serviceable?

On Monday, May 12, 2014 12:42:41 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 12/05/14 10:47, wrote:

So its getting its first PAT test at around 80 years old. Methinks
its overdue. That or the next test is due in 2094.

Being something of a museum piece I'd rather not replace the lead, so
adding a CPC may become a long term feature.

Although if the lead is that old (rubber I assume?) is it remotely
serviceable?

Its rubber and vgc. Its red & black inside, so age unknown.


NT

wrote:
I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock.

Use it through an 240-240V isolating transformer

Owain

On Monday, May 12, 2014 6:37:20 PM UTC+1, wrote:
wrote:

I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock.

Use it through an 240-240V isolating transformer
Owain

I just had a look, the bag's on upside down and cant go on the right way. Odd. Will soon fix tho. And as they ever are, its clogged up.


NT

In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 12/05/14 09:29, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 11/05/14 23:11, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated,
as all T&E
is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with
2 core
lighting circuits?

And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

In contrast, I don't think it would be suitable, particularly for a a
portable appliance. Greater risk of mechanical damage and flexure
failure on the single core. I'd say buy the right stuff and replace the
existing flex.

This was a portable appliance designed to operate without a CPC (albeit
to an earlier standard).

I don't see the relevance, if it needs an earth now then it should be
done with a 3 core flex.

Perhaps the current flex cannot be easily removed or there is not room
to clamp the additional size of 3 core?

But if so, then I agree with you. However, I'm not getting uptight about
is as all the OP wants to do is add some belt and braces to an item of
equipment that never used to be earthed - it's not exactly a super
critical application.

I'm of the view that it should be done right or not at all. Best analogy
I can think of is the potentially insecure fixing of a safety railing to
a high roof. If there is no railing than all will stay well back and all
is well, if there is a railing then people will assume it is safe to go
closer to the edge and who knows what will happen.

Just offering another view.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Monday, May 12, 2014 7:45:54 PM UTC+1, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
dionic.net writes
On 12/05/14 09:29, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
dionic.net writes
On 11/05/14 23:11, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
dionic.net writes

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette. CPCs can be single insulated,
as all T&E
is, but can it be wrapped round the flex in the manner once used with
2 core
lighting circuits?

And yes, if you really want to bolt an earth on, the CPC could be bare
metal for all it mattered, so spiralling a bit of single insulated
around the main flex would be fine.

In contrast, I don't think it would be suitable, particularly for a a
portable appliance. Greater risk of mechanical damage and flexure
failure on the single core. I'd say buy the right stuff and replace the
existing flex.

This was a portable appliance designed to operate without a CPC (albeit
to an earlier standard).

I don't see the relevance, if it needs an earth now then it should be
done with a 3 core flex.

Perhaps the current flex cannot be easily removed or there is not room
to clamp the additional size of 3 core?

But if so, then I agree with you. However, I'm not getting uptight about
is as all the OP wants to do is add some belt and braces to an item of
equipment that never used to be earthed - it's not exactly a super
critical application.

I'm of the view that it should be done right or not at all. Best analogy
I can think of is the potentially insecure fixing of a safety railing to
a high roof. If there is no railing than all will stay well back and all
is well, if there is a railing then people will assume it is safe to go
closer to the edge and who knows what will happen.
Just offering another view.

Its done. The way its done it can go back to original any time. I'm not going to modernise it where its not needed. A 3 core lead wouldnt work well anyway, the design is clearly not set up to be earthed.

One remaining question is whether the bag can be washed. I've washed later ones, but not a 1930s black one. I guess I'll test it.


NT

On 11/05/2014 18:34, Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 2:33:21 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
On 11/05/14 11:34, wrote:

I have a Class 0 appliance, but not enough 3 core flex in stock. As a
short term measure is it permitted to add a cpc wrapped round the 2
core flex, as long as its effectively cordgripped at each end? Its a
handheld thing.

Class 0? So older than 1975 ish? And not fairy lights (nothing worth earthing).
Do tell - what is it?

http://www.vibratormuseum.com/electric/index.html
Maybe? ;-)
Tim

Lol, you people. Its a Hoover Dustette.

My god you pervert!! Google for "Hoover dustette penile injuries". I kid
you not, those things are dangerous!

With Brian's tickling experience in mind:

Perhaps NT in his old age thinks the "tickle" he gets is now too much
for him to handle!

Hence the new earthing requirement?

On 12/05/14 19:45, fred wrote:

I'm of the view that it should be done right or not at all.

I would normally agree.

Best analogy
I can think of is the potentially insecure fixing of a safety railing to
a high roof. If there is no railing than all will stay well back and all
is well, if there is a railing then people will assume it is safe to go
closer to the edge and who knows what will happen.

Just offering another view.

But in this case I won't ;-

"Half arsed" is much better than not at all IMHO. And the presence of a
CPC is unlikely to make the internal insulation start to act all
careless and suddenly break down ;-

Unless you're proposing the user would stand on a rubber mat on seeing
an item of Class 0 equipment that has no CPC

And the OP has not answered: IS is actually Class 0?

Probably from that vintage, but it's not beyond the bounds of
possibility that it's actually double insulated - or as good as - by
accident if not design...

Personally I'd stick an RCD plug on it. Leaves the rest authentic and
significantly reduces the risk.

On Tuesday, May 13, 2014 11:57:15 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 12/05/14 19:45, fred wrote:

I'm of the view that it should be done right or not at all.
I would normally agree.
Best analogy
I can think of is the potentially insecure fixing of a safety railing to
a high roof. If there is no railing than all will stay well back and all
is well, if there is a railing then people will assume it is safe to go
closer to the edge and who knows what will happen.

Just offering another view.
But in this case I won't ;-
"Half arsed" is much better than not at all IMHO. And the presence of a
CPC is unlikely to make the internal insulation start to act all
careless and suddenly break down ;-
Unless you're proposing the user would stand on a rubber mat on seeing
an item of Class 0 equipment that has no CPC
And the OP has not answered: IS is actually Class 0?
Probably from that vintage, but it's not beyond the bounds of
possibility that it's actually double insulated - or as good as - by
accident if not design...
Personally I'd stick an RCD plug on it. Leaves the rest authentic and
significantly reduces the risk.

I wondered about an RCD plug. But they're not known for being robust. And it would be noncompliant.


NT

In article , Tim Watts
writes

"Half arsed" is much better than not at all IMHO. And the presence of a
CPC is unlikely to make the internal insulation start to act all
careless and suddenly break down ;-

The whole point is that there's no guarantee that a flying lead earth
will still be functional on a portable appliance in 12mths time. I
mentioned flexure failure and that is most likely what will happen when
dolly has run the dustette round the bannisters a few dozen times.

So, does it need an earth or doesn't it? If it doesn't need an earth
then don't earth it and if it does need an earth then don't do it half
arsed.

On a tangent, half arsed is not what I need when I'm 100m off the deck
and I'm relying on the security of a belay point to stop me taking a
swan dive off the top.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On 13/05/14 19:26, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes

"Half arsed" is much better than not at all IMHO. And the presence of a
CPC is unlikely to make the internal insulation start to act all
careless and suddenly break down ;-

The whole point is that there's no guarantee that a flying lead earth
will still be functional on a portable appliance in 12mths time. I
mentioned flexure failure and that is most likely what will happen when
dolly has run the dustette round the bannisters a few dozen times.

Spira-wrap it and it will be fine.


So, does it need an earth or doesn't it? If it doesn't need an earth
then don't earth it and if it does need an earth then don't do it half
arsed.

On a tangent, half arsed is not what I need when I'm 100m off the deck
and I'm relying on the security of a belay point to stop me taking a
swan dive off the top.

Tangent yes. Relevant? No.

On Tuesday, May 13, 2014 7:26:58 PM UTC+1, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts writes

"Half arsed" is much better than not at all IMHO. And the presence of a
CPC is unlikely to make the internal insulation start to act all
careless and suddenly break down ;-

The whole point is that there's no guarantee that a flying lead earth
will still be functional on a portable appliance in 12mths time. I

no such gtee needed

mentioned flexure failure and that is most likely what will happen when
dolly has run the dustette round the bannisters a few dozen times.

why will the cpc have such a short life, yet the main lead last 80 years?

So, does it need an earth or doesn't it? If it doesn't need an earth
then don't earth it and if it does need an earth then don't do it half
arsed.

What exactly would you recommend then? Given that a 3 core lead would not enable the cpc to go where its needed. A 3 core lead would see the cpc enter a closed plastic cavity from which there is no escape - and the metal appliance body is some distance from it.

On a tangent, half arsed is not what I need when I'm 100m off the deck
and I'm relying on the security of a belay point to stop me taking a
swan dive off the top.

Non-comparable situation


NT