Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is leaving me with one space socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

is this wiring actually on the lighting ring?
If yes, then no.
I'd not chance it, in any case the breaker on that ring would probably pop
if you used it with a vacuum or angle grinder when the motor started!
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"paulfoel" wrote in message
...
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just a
pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it
acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can put
plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is leaving me with
one space socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

On 10/02/2014 15:00, paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just
a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it
acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can
put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is
leaving me with one space socket).

It would seem sensible to split the feed to leave the light permanently
wired, and then have a socket connected via a fused spur unit.

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

If you fused the socket (via the spur) at 3 or 5A[1] and labelled the
socket accordingly, it would be ok for powering low current appliances.
This kind of thing is often done for supplies to aerial amps or TV
distribution amplifiers etc.

[1] Depending on the rating of the protective device for the whole
circuit, and the existing load on it from other lamps.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

paulfoel wrote:
Is it acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket.

Make your mind up, a plug or a socket? They are two different things.

jgh

Oh, I used a clock point for that sort of thing, I have to say, but then
I'm weird.
Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/02/2014 15:00, paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just
a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it
acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can
put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is
leaving me with one space socket).

It would seem sensible to split the feed to leave the light permanently
wired, and then have a socket connected via a fused spur unit.

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

If you fused the socket (via the spur) at 3 or 5A[1] and labelled the
socket accordingly, it would be ok for powering low current appliances.
This kind of thing is often done for supplies to aerial amps or TV
distribution amplifiers etc.

[1] Depending on the rating of the protective device for the whole
circuit, and the existing load on it from other lamps.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/02/2014 15:00, paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is leaving me with one space socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

Not a good idea! What size cable feeds the lighting circuit, and how is
it protected at the CU - what value of fuse, breaker, etc.?

If you only want to use low power appliances up there, you might get way
with connecting a socket via an FCU with a 5 amp fuse in it - but it's
far from good practice!
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just
a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it
acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can
put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is
leaving me with one space socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

It'll be on the lighting circuit.
Meaning that if you turn all the sockets off at the CU, this socket will
still be live.
It also means that if whatever you have plugged into it trips, the whole
lighting circuit will trip.

Whether this is 'acceptable' is up to you and no one can stop you, but it's
not really advisable....if it's only going to be used for occasional use,
it's probably easier just to run an extension reel up there when required.

paulfoel wrote:
Is it acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket.

Make your mind up, a plug or a socket? They are two different things.

jgh



What's your problem? Calling it a double plug socket makes perfect sense. Is
far better than those that call sockets plugs and plugs "plug tops"!

I do have a single plug socket from the lighting ring in my loft but its a 5
amp round pin socket that powers the aerial booster. Never connect a 13 amp
socked as who knows what someone may try to run from it.

Mike

Phil L explained :
paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just
a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it
acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can
put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is
leaving me with one space socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

It'll be on the lighting circuit.
Meaning that if you turn all the sockets off at the CU, this socket will
still be live.
It also means that if whatever you have plugged into it trips, the whole
lighting circuit will trip.

Whether this is 'acceptable' is up to you and no one can stop you, but it's
not really advisable....if it's only going to be used for occasional use,
it's probably easier just to run an extension reel up there when required.

I agree, you have to consider that someone may come along and assume it
is safe to plug a 3Kw heater in there. Much safer would be to run a
spur off the upstairs ring, to a twin 13 amp socket, then use one
outlet for the light, via a suitably small fuse in the plug, leaving
you one outlet for your angle grinder, wander light, or what ever.

There is almost always an easy cable route from the 1st floor
floor-level, upto the loft space - airing cupboard etc..

If you then somehow manage to trip that, you will still have some
working light on the floor below.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
Oh, I used a clock point for that sort of thing, I have to say, but
then I'm weird.

More normal plug/socket combination to use on a lighting circuit would be
2 or 5 amp three pin - that's why they are still available from nearly all
makers of wiring accessories.

But if you wish to use something like a lead light or other device fitted
with a 13 amp plug, you'll need a 13 amp socket. With the wiring protected
by a FCU with a 5 amp fuse.

--
*I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday 10 February 2014 16:17 Harry Bloomfield wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Phil L explained :
paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just
a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it
acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can
put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is
leaving me with one space socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

It'll be on the lighting circuit.
Meaning that if you turn all the sockets off at the CU, this socket
will still be live.
It also means that if whatever you have plugged into it trips, the
whole lighting circuit will trip.

Whether this is 'acceptable' is up to you and no one can stop you,
but it's not really advisable....if it's only going to be used for
occasional use, it's probably easier just to run an extension reel up
there when required.

I agree, you have to consider that someone may come along and assume
it is safe to plug a 3Kw heater in there. Much safer would be to run a
spur off the upstairs ring, to a twin 13 amp socket, then use one
outlet for the light, via a suitably small fuse in the plug, leaving
you one outlet for your angle grinder, wander light, or what ever.

There is almost always an easy cable route from the 1st floor
floor-level, upto the loft space - airing cupboard etc..

If you then somehow manage to trip that, you will still have some
working light on the floor below.


well, in the worst case, it will take out the protective device (fuse) -
which will be annoying, but not actually dangerous...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal
coverage

On 10/02/2014 16:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
Oh, I used a clock point for that sort of thing, I have to say, but
then I'm weird.

More normal plug/socket combination to use on a lighting circuit would be
2 or 5 amp three pin - that's why they are still available from nearly all
makers of wiring accessories.

But if you wish to use something like a lead light or other device fitted
with a 13 amp plug, you'll need a 13 amp socket. With the wiring protected
by a FCU with a 5 amp fuse.

Or use with a self-made flex having a 13A socket at one end and a 2A or
5A plug at the other? Thus leaving the fixed wiring relatively
standard/safe but allowing use of things with 13A plugs on them (up to
some appropriate current limit).

--
Rod

In article ,
Muddymike wrote:
What's your problem? Calling it a double plug socket makes perfect
sense. Is far better than those that call sockets plugs and plugs "plug
tops"!

I'm wondering what is confusing about plug and socket? Why does either
need any extra description?

--
*Why were the Indians here first? They had reservations.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/02/2014 17:14, Tim Watts wrote:
On Monday 10 February 2014 16:17 Harry Bloomfield wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Phil L explained :
paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just
a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it
acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can
put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is
leaving me with one space socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

It'll be on the lighting circuit.
Meaning that if you turn all the sockets off at the CU, this socket
will still be live.
It also means that if whatever you have plugged into it trips, the
whole lighting circuit will trip.

Whether this is 'acceptable' is up to you and no one can stop you,
but it's not really advisable....if it's only going to be used for
occasional use, it's probably easier just to run an extension reel up
there when required.

I agree, you have to consider that someone may come along and assume
it is safe to plug a 3Kw heater in there. Much safer would be to run a
spur off the upstairs ring, to a twin 13 amp socket, then use one
outlet for the light, via a suitably small fuse in the plug, leaving
you one outlet for your angle grinder, wander light, or what ever.

There is almost always an easy cable route from the 1st floor
floor-level, upto the loft space - airing cupboard etc..

If you then somehow manage to trip that, you will still have some
working light on the floor below.


well, in the worst case, it will take out the protective device (fuse) -
which will be annoying, but not actually dangerous...

A 5A fuse in a spur probably won't blow before the 6A breaker in the CU
anyway so its not actually going to improve protection.
It may make the circuit easier to understand.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
Oh, I used a clock point for that sort of thing, I have to say, but
then I'm weird.

More normal plug/socket combination to use on a lighting circuit
would be 2 or 5 amp three pin - that's why they are still available
from nearly all makers of wiring accessories.

But if you wish to use something like a lead light or other device
fitted with a 13 amp plug, you'll need a 13 amp socket. With the
wiring protected by a FCU with a 5 amp fuse.

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

Now what is required is the labelling of the 13A socket. eg "TV amp/loft
light ONLY"

Sometimes you just have to fit 13A sockets for the TV amp/LED lighting wall
warts that you want to power.

--

Adam

dennis@home wrote:

A 5A fuse in a spur probably won't blow before the 6A breaker in the
CU anyway so its not actually going to improve protection.

Thank you.

--

Adam

paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it acceptable

to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can put plug on end
of wiring for light also and just plug this is leaving me with one space
socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

Feed the supply to a 5A fused spur unit and feed that to the 13A socket,
and label the socket 'Max load 5A'. That's what they usually do for
aerial amps. You do need to pick up an earth from the lighting circuit
though, so if there isn't one you're stuffed.

Years ago I went to a block of flats to find out why the TV system
didn't work very well. There was no amp in loft above the communal
stairs, but I could see coaxes passing across that loft into the loft of
a flat, so I got into there and found the amp, which was strategically
placed midway between a lighting terminal box and a steel housing which
was something to do with the warden call system. The mains cable for the
amp had been stripped back by about two feet. The brown wire went to the
lighting terminal box and the blue one went to one of the screws that
held the lid on the metal box. This was not the cause of the fault,
which was simply that the amp was overloaded by aerial signal. However I
made myself unpopular by disconnecting the amp (which left the residents
with no reception rather than poor reception) pending the arrival the
next day of an electrician.

Bill

In article , Muddymike
writes
paulfoel wrote:
Is it acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket.

Make your mind up, a plug or a socket? They are two different things.

jgh



What's your problem? Calling it a double plug socket makes perfect sense. Is
far better than those that call sockets plugs and plugs "plug tops"!

Well, it's hardly a definitive description, is it?

I'm thinking of putting a socket in my loft.

What kind of socket?

A plug socket.

Errrrrrrr?


In short, it adds nothing to the description.


I'm thinking of putting a new plug socket behind the telly.

Is that a phono plug socket, HDMI socket, phone plug socket, VGA plug
socket, RJ45 plug socket, F-type plug socket, Belling-Lee plug socket,
13A plug socket, 5A (lighting) plug socket or some other kind of plug
socket?


Those that use the term seem to think it is the most logical term in the
world but I just can't see the logic behind it.


Personally I'd say 13A socket, 13A dual socket, 13A single socket or
whatever.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On 10/02/2014 20:40, ARW wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
Oh, I used a clock point for that sort of thing, I have to say, but
then I'm weird.

More normal plug/socket combination to use on a lighting circuit
would be 2 or 5 amp three pin - that's why they are still available
from nearly all makers of wiring accessories.

But if you wish to use something like a lead light or other device
fitted with a 13 amp plug, you'll need a 13 amp socket. With the
wiring protected by a FCU with a 5 amp fuse.

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but for
adding discrimination if possible. I.e. it would be nice if overloading
the current budget for the socket blew only its fuse rather than taking
out the lights in the loft you happen to be in at the time! (especially
if its not boarded and you now have to find your way back to the hatch
in the dark)

Now what is required is the labelling of the 13A socket. eg "TV amp/loft
light ONLY"

Sometimes you just have to fit 13A sockets for the TV amp/LED lighting wall
warts that you want to power.

yup

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but for
adding discrimination if possible.

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Bill

"Brian Gaff" wrote in
:

Oh, I used a clock point for that sort of thing, I have to say, but
then I'm weird.
Brian


I did the same for an aerial amp.

--

DerbyBorn

On 11/02/2014 04:47, Bill Wright wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but
for adding discrimination if possible.

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Indeed... although it does depend on what the main circuit is protected
with. There are some 10A lighting circuits about which will offer more
scope.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/02/2014 20:40, ARW wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


But if you wish to use something like a lead light or other device
fitted with a 13 amp plug, you'll need a 13 amp socket. With the
wiring protected by a FCU with a 5 amp fuse.

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.


Except that that will take out the lights, too - plunging the attic into
darkness!

Now what is required is the labelling of the 13A socket. eg "TV amp/loft
light ONLY"

Sometimes you just have to fit 13A sockets for the TV amp/LED lighting wall
warts that you want to power.


Unless you make up a short extension lead with an in-line 13A socket at
one end and a more appropriate plug at the other.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

In article , Muddymike
writes
paulfoel wrote:
Is it acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket.

Make your mind up, a plug or a socket? They are two different things.

jgh



What's your problem? Calling it a double plug socket makes perfect sense.
Is
far better than those that call sockets plugs and plugs "plug tops"!

Well, it's hardly a definitive description, is it?

I'm thinking of putting a socket in my loft.

What kind of socket?

A plug socket.

Errrrrrrr?


In short, it adds nothing to the description.


I'm thinking of putting a new plug socket behind the telly.

Is that a phono plug socket, HDMI socket, phone plug socket, VGA plug
socket, RJ45 plug socket, F-type plug socket, Belling-Lee plug socket, 13A
plug socket, 5A (lighting) plug socket or some other kind of plug socket?


Those that use the term seem to think it is the most logical term in the
world but I just can't see the logic behind it.


Personally I'd say 13A socket, 13A dual socket, 13A single socket or
whatever.


This is a DIY group. Not every DIY person has a full grasp of professional
terminology including myself. He made the situation perfectly clear in the
first sentence (which I notice has been clipped out) explaining what he
wanted to do.

Asking, what type of double plug socket? May have been constructive,
commenting "Make your mind up, a plug or a socket? They are two different
things." Just makes the writer sound like a smart arse with nothing to
contribute!

That remains my opinion.

Mike

In article , Muddymike
writes
In article , Muddymike
writes

Personally I'd say 13A socket, 13A dual socket, 13A single socket or
whatever.

This is a DIY group. Not every DIY person has a full grasp of professional
terminology including myself. He made the situation perfectly clear in the
first sentence (which I notice has been clipped out) explaining what he
wanted to do.

Professional terminology like 13A socket ;-)

Asking, what type of double plug socket? May have been constructive,
commenting "Make your mind up, a plug or a socket? They are two different
things." Just makes the writer sound like a smart arse with nothing to
contribute!

That remains my opinion.

Actually you're quite right and it's a helpful reminder, never a
negative without a positive[1], so it's fine to make a correction but
only after offering a solution or constructive suggestion on the problem
at hand which was not done in the case you pointed out.

My bessie mate has the 'plug socket' mental block and I am have no
reservations about ripping the **** out of him over it but he is a
software engineer and so cannot be expected to have a grasp of the real
world.

[1] There are no prizes for finding instances where I have failed to do
this but I sit suitably reminded for the future.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In article ,
fred wrote:
My bessie mate has the 'plug socket' mental block and I am have no
reservations about ripping the **** out of him over it but he is a
software engineer and so cannot be expected to have a grasp of the real
world.

Plug, pins, penis?

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:27:09 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 10/02/2014 17:14, Tim Watts wrote:
On Monday 10 February 2014 16:17 Harry Bloomfield wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Phil L explained :
paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just
a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it
acceptable to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can
put plug on end of wiring for light also and just plug this is
leaving me with one space socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

It'll be on the lighting circuit.
Meaning that if you turn all the sockets off at the CU, this socket
will still be live.
It also means that if whatever you have plugged into it trips, the
whole lighting circuit will trip.

Whether this is 'acceptable' is up to you and no one can stop you,
but it's not really advisable....if it's only going to be used for
occasional use, it's probably easier just to run an extension reel up
there when required.

I agree, you have to consider that someone may come along and assume
it is safe to plug a 3Kw heater in there. Much safer would be to run a
spur off the upstairs ring, to a twin 13 amp socket, then use one
outlet for the light, via a suitably small fuse in the plug, leaving
you one outlet for your angle grinder, wander light, or what ever.

There is almost always an easy cable route from the 1st floor
floor-level, upto the loft space - airing cupboard etc..

If you then somehow manage to trip that, you will still have some
working light on the floor below.


well, in the worst case, it will take out the protective device (fuse) -
which will be annoying, but not actually dangerous...

A 5A fuse in a spur probably won't blow before the 6A breaker in the CU
anyway so its not actually going to improve protection.
It may make the circuit easier to understand.


Electrically speaking, you can wire a 13A socket straight off the
lighting wiring without compromising safety, provided the lighting
circuit remains fused at its 6 amp maximum limit.

If you're fitting a 13A socket in the loft or attic, it's usually for
the purposes of providing power to something like a masthead amp or TV
aerial distribution amp both of which would be more than amply served
by a half amp fuse[1] which minimises the risk of a house fire should
a fault develop on the (now fused) 13A socket spur.

Of course, there still remains the risk of a fire from a fault in the
amplifier kit itself but, provided it has been designed to the
mandatory safety requirements for such 'domestic appliances' this
aught to eliminate such risk. The only problem is that, unlike a radio
or hairdrier, it is operating 'out of sight' of any human supervision.

I'd be inclined to mount such devices on a metal shelf with heat
resistant deflectors (steel sheeting) to stop any flamage from
reaching any flamable construction materials and, for good measure,
install a loud smoke detector above, but to one side of said kit,
ideally with a repeater just outside of the loft hatchway or attic
doorway.

In my case, that last bit of paranoia has remained merely an idle
inclination to this day (although I might try the smoke alarm idea).

[1] If you needed to provide power for powertools, you'd just plug in
a suitable mains lead extension into one of your regular 13A sockets
unless you were planning on turning your attic into a workshop (in
which case we wouldn't be discussing the use of a lighting circuit
feed for a 13A socket now, would we?).

Fitting a 13A fused box in the spur feed to the 13A socket allows you
to fit a half or 1 amp fuse which will be more than ample for the
socket's intended purpose yet reduce the risk of a fault on the spur
from blacking out that lighting circuit. It's just a matter of "Good
Practice" and common sense to splash out on such a 'luxury item'.

The same applies to fusing up 30A ring main circuits with lower rated
fuses when appropriate. My top floor ring main currently has a 15A
fuse link fitted because the only loads are my son's "HiFi" and
widescreen TV and computer stuff with no 2kW electric fan heaters in
sight.

The 15A fuse link has never blown in the past 7 or 8 years since I
downgraded the circuit to a "15A Ring Main". The risk of a fire in the
ring main circuit, though slight enough to be deemed acceptable
according to the regulations is now somewhat safer again.

I like the principle that you can replace a large fuse link in an
existing fuse carrier with smaller rated fuse links (Wylex CU) since
it makes it very simple to downgrade the ciruit capacity on an as
needed basis without compromising safety (in this case, boosting
safety), since it's a trivial exercise to refit the original larger
fuse should the smaller one blow due to unanticipated overload.
--
Regards, J B Good

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:47:12 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but for
adding discrimination if possible.

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Bill

+1 And, if possible a half amp fuse (the actual draw for a typical
aerial amplifier will be way less than 0.1A). The lower the better in
this instance.
--
Regards, J B Good

John Rumm wrote:

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Indeed... although it does depend on what the main circuit is protected
with. There are some 10A lighting circuits about which will offer more
scope.

From Day One of my self-employment I've used 3A fuses to protect TV
amplifiers etc. I've always bought a big bagful. During my recent
month-long stock room clear out I found three large bags of 3A fuses,
all partly used. In volume terms I'd say I have over a litre of 3A
fuses. It seems unlikely that I will need these for my domestic
requirements.

Bill

DerbyBorn wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in
:

Oh, I used a clock point for that sort of thing, I have to say, but
then I'm weird.
Brian


I did the same for an aerial amp.


Some electricians always used a fit a 2A socket in the loft for us. I
put a little amp in every loft on an 80 dwelling job, and I got pretty
adept at fitting them liddle plugs. It worried me that there was no plug
top fuse but the experts waved their hands airily and assured me that
there wouldn't be a problem.

Bill

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:42:42 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/02/2014 04:47, Bill Wright wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but
for adding discrimination if possible.

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Indeed... although it does depend on what the main circuit is protected
with. There are some 10A lighting circuits about which will offer more
scope.

I suspect such circuits would only qualify for the higher 10A rating
when completely wired up with Pyro cabling and appropriate fittings. a
more likely scenarion in commercial premises rather than in premises
of the domestic persuasion (i.e. a house) where the limit has always
been 6A fusing at the CU panel afair.
--
Regards, J B Good

fred wrote:

My bessie mate has the 'plug socket' mental block and I am have no
reservations about ripping the **** out of him over it but he is a
software engineer

That can't be right. Software engineers don't have mates.

Bill

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 20:52:42 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

paulfoel wrote:
Currently got wiring in the attic that runs a light. Originally just a pull switch and bulb/holder but I've replaced with strip light.

However, what I want to do now is have plug socket up there. Is it acceptable

to run this wire into a double plug socket. (Then I can put plug on end
of wiring for light also and just plug this is leaving me with one space
socket).

Or leave well alone because its a light circuit?

Feed the supply to a 5A fused spur unit and feed that to the 13A socket,
and label the socket 'Max load 5A'. That's what they usually do for
aerial amps. You do need to pick up an earth from the lighting circuit
though, so if there isn't one you're stuffed.


Assuming we're dealing with 'modern' lighting circuits which are
required to include a protective earth, if you're going to use a FIVE
AMP fuse inline, you might as well forego the luxury of such a fuse
box connection altogether for your 13A socket spur and just use an
ordinary joint box to tap into the lighting circuit.

The 6A fuse or CB at the CU will still provide the same level of
fault protection on the lighting circuit and exceed safety
requirements for the attached 13A Socket circuit. With a 5A fuse
you're just as likely to see the 6A fuse blow (or CB trip) at the CU
as you are the 5A cartridge fuse in the spur fuse box.

The extra fuse protection only makes sense with 3A or lower rated
fuses fitted. You can always fit a 13A[1] fuse on a temporary basis to
allow you to use a powertool or whatever that draws just less than the
6A limit on the lighting circuit with all bar the one lamp switched
off whenever you want to avoid the hassle of digging out and setting
up a mains extension cord from a regular mains socket.

[1] If you're going to swap out the regular 1, 2 or 3 amp fuse, you
might as well fit a 13A fuse and work to the 6A limit of the lighting
circuit protection.
--
Regards, J B Good

Johny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:42:42 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/02/2014 04:47, Bill Wright wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but
for adding discrimination if possible.

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Indeed... although it does depend on what the main circuit is protected
with. There are some 10A lighting circuits about which will offer more
scope.

I suspect such circuits would only qualify for the higher 10A rating
when completely wired up with Pyro cabling and appropriate fittings. a
more likely scenarion in commercial premises rather than in premises
of the domestic persuasion (i.e. a house) where the limit has always
been 6A fusing at the CU panel afair.

Mine is on a 10A ring.

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 8:32:39 PM UTC, Johny B Good wrote:


If you're fitting a 13A socket in the loft or attic, it's usually for
the purposes of providing power to something like a masthead amp or TV
aerial distribution amp both of which would be more than amply served
by a half amp fuse[1] which minimises the risk of a house fire should
a fault develop on the (now fused) 13A socket spur.

2A and below suffer much more frequent failure, I expect one of the reasons for the choice of 3A fuses in the 40s.

Of course, there still remains the risk of a fire from a fault in the
amplifier kit itself but, provided it has been designed to the
mandatory safety requirements for such 'domestic appliances' this
aught to eliminate such risk.

no

The only problem is that, unlike a radio
or hairdrier, it is operating 'out of sight' of any human supervision.
I'd be inclined to mount such devices on a metal shelf with heat
resistant deflectors (steel sheeting) to stop any flamage from
reaching any flamable construction materials and, for good measure,
install a loud smoke detector above, but to one side of said kit,
ideally with a repeater just outside of the loft hatchway or attic
doorway.

Biscuit tins are relatively easy to apply. Snip & bend back the 3 tabs for each hole. They restrict airflow, so a signifcant fire size cant happen. Things can get hot, but fire heat wont add to it significantly.


[1] If you needed to provide power for powertools, you'd just plug in
a suitable mains lead extension into one of your regular 13A sockets
unless you were planning on turning your attic into a workshop (in
which case we wouldn't be discussing the use of a lighting circuit
feed for a 13A socket now, would we?).

I've seen whole flats here running on a 5A feed. A pain, but workable. In eastern europe its standard practice to have an 8A feed to flats.


NT

On 11/02/2014 20:43, Johny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:42:42 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/02/2014 04:47, Bill Wright wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but
for adding discrimination if possible.

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Indeed... although it does depend on what the main circuit is protected
with. There are some 10A lighting circuits about which will offer more
scope.

I suspect such circuits would only qualify for the higher 10A rating
when completely wired up with Pyro cabling and appropriate fittings. a

10A is well within the capability of even 1.0mm T&E in some cases, and
1.5mm T&E in most.

There used to be a restriction on not using SBC and SES lamp fittings on
such circuits, but that was deleted with the issue of the 17th edition.

more likely scenarion in commercial premises rather than in premises
of the domestic persuasion (i.e. a house) where the limit has always
been 6A fusing at the CU panel afair.

10A is used domestically as well... I have certainly met it a few times.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 11/02/2014 20:42, Bill Wright wrote:
DerbyBorn wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in
:
Oh, I used a clock point for that sort of thing, I have to say, but
then I'm weird.
Brian


I did the same for an aerial amp.


Some electricians always used a fit a 2A socket in the loft for us. I
put a little amp in every loft on an 80 dwelling job, and I got pretty
adept at fitting them liddle plugs. It worried me that there was no plug
top fuse but the experts waved their hands airily and assured me that
there wouldn't be a problem.

Well you have two considerations in these cases: overload protection and
fault protection. Since its one fixed appliance with little scope for a
user to change or alter it, then you can legitimately ignore the
possibility of overload. Fault protection must be provided, but you can
normally demonstrate that with a small MCB at the origin of the circuit,
it will provide adequate protection for even relatively lightweight
appliance flexes on your 2A plug.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Johny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:47:12 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.
My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but for
adding discrimination if possible.
Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Bill

+1 And, if possible a half amp fuse (the actual draw for a typical
aerial amplifier will be way less than 0.1A). The lower the better in
this instance.

On one occasion we had a small domestic amp (of reputable make) develop
a fault which caused it to make the nearby carpet smoulder (we'd
supplied it and left it inside the TV cabinet, but the customer had
re-arranged things and screwed it to the skirting board.) The amp had
obviously got very hot indeed. It was of a type with a thin walled steel
case inside a black plastic case, and the latter had melted quite a bit.
The amp had not blown the plug fuse, which was 3A. The smell had alerted
the customer when he came home and he had disconnected the power.

Incidentally I've told this before on here, but there was the young mum
who, offended by the smell coming from the masthead amplifier power
supply, and concerned that it might burn the baby's fingers, wrapped it
in towels.

Bill

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:53:15 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/02/2014 20:43, Johny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:42:42 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/02/2014 04:47, Bill Wright wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of any
overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring, but
for adding discrimination if possible.

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Indeed... although it does depend on what the main circuit is protected
with. There are some 10A lighting circuits about which will offer more
scope.

I suspect such circuits would only qualify for the higher 10A rating
when completely wired up with Pyro cabling and appropriate fittings. a

10A is well within the capability of even 1.0mm T&E in some cases, and
1.5mm T&E in most.

There used to be a restriction on not using SBC and SES lamp fittings on
such circuits, but that was deleted with the issue of the 17th edition.

more likely scenarion in commercial premises rather than in premises
of the domestic persuasion (i.e. a house) where the limit has always
been 6A fusing at the CU panel afair.

10A is used domestically as well... I have certainly met it a few times.

Well, not being an electrician by trade, I've been unable to find any
references to the regulations, only anecdotes regarding 10A lighting
circuits (including the use of a ring lighting circuit) so I can't
quote 'chapter and verse' as to whether this is an acceptable
departure from the regulations or not (I know some leaway exists
within the regulations but this seems to be quite a large departure to
my mind).

All my knowledge comes from when, with the assistance of a retired
electrician (a family relative), I totally rewired this 3 story 6 bed
Victorian semi-detached house back around 1983.

This is where I learned about the CU fusing regulations with regard
to ring mains, lighting circuits, high power spur feeds to things like
cooker points and power showers as well as to the requirement to
provide a dedicated 15A fused feed to the immersion heater (classified
as a fixed connected load requiringa high temp flex connection between
the heater element terminals and the switched terminal box on the end
of said dedicated feed). Plus I also learned about the earth bonding
requirements of all exposed metalwork (pipework, stainless steel sinks
etc).

It isn't exactly rocket science for someone experienced with
electronics kit and a well founded knowledge of electrical theory.
Once you understand that the fundamental protection provided by the
fuse links (MCBs) in a CU is essentially to protect the permanent
cabling and fittings it's easy to see why 5A was chosen for lighting
and up to 30A for ring mains with 45A protecting 4mm FT&E cabling to a
cooker point and other similar heavy duty loads.

A small 3 bed semi can manage with just a single ring main circuit
and a single lighting circuit plus cooker point and immersion heater
feeds so could be nicely served by a 4 fuse CU with a set of fuses
comprising of 5A for the lighting, 15A for the immersion, 30A for the
ring main and a 45A for the cooker point.

In a bigger property, you'd be well advised to fit a 6 way CU so you
can split the lighting across two circuits, each with their own 5A
fuse rather than the ill advised use of a 10A fuse on a single circuit
(even when 1.5mm cabling is used - the ratings on the fittings are all
based on the protection of a 5A fused supply). Obviously, the second
extra fuse position will allow two seperate ring mains to be provided.

When we first moved into the current property, it didn't have a
cooker point so I was able to wire up three seperate ring mains
(ground floor, first floor and second floor mains socket supplies).

The basement was catered for by fitting 3 single outlet 13A sockets
onto the CU backboard each fed off the 3 ring main circuits so that
the freezer we kept in the basement could be readily powered from any
one of the ring main circuits as an insurance against any protracted
outage that might arise due to faults or planned changes in the ring
main wiring.

The freezer no longer resides in the basement but the 'diversity' of
this setup is still very handy although I have installed an extra twin
outlet wall socket away from the CU, connected most likely to the 1st
floor ring main circuit (but I'd have to take a gander at the fuse
cover labelling to confirm this - but it seems the most logical choice
of ring main so I'd be surprised if it were otherwise since the same
logic would have dictated my original choice).

When it came to replacing all the VIR cabling in conduit lighting
wiring, we knew it had to be split across two lighting circuits. As it
happened I bought a couple of 100m reels of 1.5mm FT&E for this job
and used nearly all of it.

The Mortgage company had held back £1000 of the loan on account of
the state of the lighting circuit wiring but when I delved a little
deeper into the state of the rest of the wiring, I discovered the
house had two ring circuits and a mix of spur fed outlets randomly
distributed about the property (one ring main fed half the ground
floor sockets and half the first floor sockets and the other ring main
fed all the 2nd floor sockets but with a length of heavy duty rubber
sheathed appliance cord being used instead of the regulation FT&E.

What had started out as just a lighting circuit 'rewire' developed
into a complete rewiring of the whole house. The job was essentially
an exercise in re-organising the randomly fed sockets into 3 distinct
ring mains.

Since the top floor was the only proper ring main in the whole house,
I replaced the rubber sheathed flex with 2.5mm FT&E to bring it up to
standard then dropped a very long mains extension down to the kitchen
with another extension lead into the basement to power the freezer
whilst I stripped out most of the 'ring main' wiring to the ground and
first floor sockets, sorting out the recovered lengths of FT&E so I
could rebuild the ring main circuits using shortest lengths first.

This minimised the need to add extra cable to the point where I was
able to beg the extra 20 or so metres from my dad thus reducing the
cable costs to nil with only the new dual gang 13A sockets as the main
parts cost.

It was a lot of work to sort it out but I felt it just had to be done
in the interest of safety (it's not good having sockets in the same
room powered from different fuses in the CU). needless to say (after
sorting out the earth bonding) I had no trouble getting the job
certified and the extra grand released by the Mortgage company.

I suspect anyone trying to get their house wiring certified whilst
they have a 10A fused lighting circuit in the mix will have a hard
time trying to convince an inspector that it is within regs and
standard wiring practice.

With many house owners now using CFLs and LED lamps in place of most
of the originally fitted 60 and 100 watt incandescent lamps, I think
any such 10A lighting circuits could now be 'downgraded' to 5A fuse or
6A mcb protected circuits without any problems.

Other than 'special cases' I think anyone with a 10A fuse protected
lighting circuit should downgrade to a 5A fuse for their own peace of
mind just on safety grounds alone. Using a 10A fuse, even in a larger
domestic property is probably unnecessary with modern lamps these
days.
--
Regards, J B Good

On Wednesday 12 February 2014 03:44 Johny B Good wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:53:15 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/02/2014 20:43, Johny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:42:42 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/02/2014 04:47, Bill Wright wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

No need for the 5A FCU. The 6A MCB or 5A fuse will take care of
any overload.

My reason for including it was not for protection of the wiring,
but for adding discrimination if possible.

Use a 1A or 3A fuse then.

Indeed... although it does depend on what the main circuit is
protected with. There are some 10A lighting circuits about which
will offer more scope.

I suspect such circuits would only qualify for the higher 10A
rating
when completely wired up with Pyro cabling and appropriate fittings.
a

10A is well within the capability of even 1.0mm T&E in some cases, and
1.5mm T&E in most.

There used to be a restriction on not using SBC and SES lamp fittings
on such circuits, but that was deleted with the issue of the 17th
edition.

more likely scenarion in commercial premises rather than in premises
of the domestic persuasion (i.e. a house) where the limit has always
been 6A fusing at the CU panel afair.

10A is used domestically as well... I have certainly met it a few
times.

Well, not being an electrician by trade, I've been unable to find any
references to the regulations, only anecdotes regarding 10A lighting
circuits (including the use of a ring lighting circuit) so I can't
quote 'chapter and verse' as to whether this is an acceptable
departure from the regulations or not (I know some leaway exists
within the regulations but this seems to be quite a large departure to
my mind).

10A lighting circuits are "standard" (by the wiring regs) as are 16A
(though the latter are almost unheard of domestically).

I have designed by house with 2 x 10A lighting circuits, type C breakers
on 1.5mm2 cable to make the system a) able to cope with upto quite a lot
of lighting; b) more trip resistant when lamps fail.

I saw no real disadvantages to doing it that way - I prefer 1.5mm2 cable
over 1mm2 as I find the latter a little flimsy.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal
coverage