I am probably going to change my electricity supplier (i.e. the people I
pay for the supply) to make a small saving.

This has lead me to wonder about smart meters. I would quite like one if
it would provide the data for me to end up with an MS excel graph
showing how much power I use in each hour of the day. Is this likely to
be possible? I don't want to read the meter every hour, I could do that now.

From what I have learnt so far, not all meters are the same, and if you
have one and then change supplier, the new supplier may say that the
meter is incompatible with their systems.

I should say that as a way of life supplying meter readings once a year
and then sorting out the bill is quite good enough for me.


--
Michael Chare

On Friday 20 September 2013 15:09 Michael Chare wrote in uk.d-i-y:

I am probably going to change my electricity supplier (i.e. the people I
pay for the supply) to make a small saving.

This has lead me to wonder about smart meters. I would quite like one if
it would provide the data for me to end up with an MS excel graph
showing how much power I use in each hour of the day. Is this likely to
be possible? I don't want to read the meter every hour, I could do that
now.

From what I have learnt so far, not all meters are the same, and if you
have one and then change supplier, the new supplier may say that the
meter is incompatible with their systems.

I should say that as a way of life supplying meter readings once a year
and then sorting out the bill is quite good enough for me.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22665918

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22608085

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04...meter_hacking/

Still want one?

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

In article , Tim Watts
writes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22665918

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22608085

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04...meter_hacking/

Still want one?

And then there's the function creep on the data gathered, that's bound
to come along at some point.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

Tim Watts wrote:

On Friday 20 September 2013 15:09 Michael Chare wrote in uk.d-i-y:

I am probably going to change my electricity supplier (i.e. the people I
pay for the supply) to make a small saving.

This has lead me to wonder about smart meters. I would quite like one if
it would provide the data for me to end up with an MS excel graph
showing how much power I use in each hour of the day. Is this likely to
be possible? I don't want to read the meter every hour, I could do that
now.

From what I have learnt so far, not all meters are the same, and if you
have one and then change supplier, the new supplier may say that the
meter is incompatible with their systems.

I should say that as a way of life supplying meter readings once a year
and then sorting out the bill is quite good enough for me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22665918

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22608085

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04...meter_hacking/

Still want one?

Once upon a time, back in the 70s, electricity had to be rationed due
to supply problems. This was done in the only way possible at the
time: rolling power cuts.

These days, like lines of pensioners queueing outside a
possibly-collapsing bank, this sort of thing is very bad publicity
for the government. They have made it a law to keep the news of
possible bank failures secret, so that gets rid of that particular
embarrassment.

The next one is when we start to run out of electricity, currently
thought to be in 2015, due to the policy of appeasing the greens by
closing perfectly viable coal-fired power-stations and replacing them
with nothing effective. No-one dare mention the N-word, and anyway
it's too late to get them rolling by then.

So, the government needs to deal with this uncomfortable situation yet
get itself off the hook. The method? Smart meters!

You pay the £11bn cost, and the electricity companies can now change
the price of electricity moment by moment, the
near-instantanous readings being sent by the smart meter so there's no
escape except to turn things off. So, at no cost to itself, the
government can say 'nothing to do with us, sunshine', while
pensioners freeze and we all get used to using cooking the evening
meal at midnight and using the washing-machine at 3:00am.

Of course, having the smart meters in place beforehand means that they
know your usage pattern, so any attempt to fiddle the meter will stand
out.

--
Terry Fields

Michael Chare wrote:

I am probably going to change my electricity supplier (i.e. the people I
pay for the supply) to make a small saving.

This has lead me to wonder about smart meters. I would quite like one if
it would provide the data for me to end up with an MS excel graph
showing how much power I use in each hour of the day. Is this likely to
be possible? I don't want to read the meter every hour, I could do that now.

From what I have learnt so far, not all meters are the same, and if you
have one and then change supplier, the new supplier may say that the
meter is incompatible with their systems.

I should say that as a way of life supplying meter readings once a year
and then sorting out the bill is quite good enough for me.

As we discussed a few months ago, and the report at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22480068

says, the official "Smart Meter" roll out is running late.
However, various companies are providing what could best be
described as meters which are smarter than the old ones, which
will probably have to be swapped or modified in order to be fully
compliant when the final standards are agreed.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 20/09/2013 15:57, Terry Fields wrote:


So, the government needs to deal with this uncomfortable situation yet
get itself off the hook. The method? Smart meters!

You pay the £11bn cost, and the electricity companies can now change
the price of electricity moment by moment, the
near-instantanous readings being sent by the smart meter so there's no
escape except to turn things off. So, at no cost to itself, the
government can say 'nothing to do with us, sunshine', while
pensioners freeze and we all get used to using cooking the evening
meal at midnight and using the washing-machine at 3:00am.

Of course, having the smart meters in place beforehand means that they
know your usage pattern, so any attempt to fiddle the meter will stand
out.


I think it would be a brave government that would allow the power
companies to bring in dynamic pricing to a greater extent than we have
it now.

There is a conundrum :I can see that more information about my
electricity usage is useful to me, but my enthusiasm for sharing this
data with others is somewhat limited.

What I need is my own wired in smart meter.


--
Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:

What I need is my own wired in smart meter.
Have a look at the openenergymonitor website.
Whole load of guys doing open source energy monitoring predominantly in
the uk.

On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:34:10 +0100, Michael Chare wrote:

What I need is my own wired in smart meter.

There are a number of "energy monitors" out there. Clip a small
current transformere aound one of the CU tails that connects to a
box, that wirelessly transmits the data to a display unit. Some have
logging built in and computer interfaces so you can see your energy
useage.

I have a CurrentCost unit, works well and is fairly accurate, less
than a unit/day adrift from the real meter. Can have a USB connection
to a computer, it squirts realtime data over that every 6 seconds or
so. It logs stuff itself and periodicaly sends the historical data as
well. This data is in a published XML format so easy to work with.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 20/09/2013 17:36, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:34:10 +0100, Michael Chare wrote:

What I need is my own wired in smart meter.

There are a number of "energy monitors" out there. Clip a small
current transformere aound one of the CU tails that connects to a
box, that wirelessly transmits the data to a display unit. Some have
logging built in and computer interfaces so you can see your energy
useage.

I have a CurrentCost unit, works well and is fairly accurate, less
than a unit/day adrift from the real meter. Can have a USB connection
to a computer, it squirts realtime data over that every 6 seconds or
so. It logs stuff itself and periodicaly sends the historical data as
well. This data is in a published XML format so easy to work with.


here is another alternative

http://www.theowl.com/products/owlusb.php



--
Chris

On Friday, 20 September 2013 15:17:52 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On Friday 20 September 2013 15:09 Michael Chare wrote in uk.d-i-y:



I am probably going to change my electricity supplier (i.e. the people I

pay for the supply) to make a small saving.



This has lead me to wonder about smart meters. I would quite like one if

it would provide the data for me to end up with an MS excel graph

showing how much power I use in each hour of the day. Is this likely to

be possible? I don't want to read the meter every hour, I could do that

now.



From what I have learnt so far, not all meters are the same, and if you

have one and then change supplier, the new supplier may say that the

meter is incompatible with their systems.



I should say that as a way of life supplying meter readings once a year

and then sorting out the bill is quite good enough for me.







http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22665918



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22608085



http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04...meter_hacking/



Still want one?



--

Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/



http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage



Reading this on the web? See:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

It's not hacking that worries me so much as remote-disconnect it the hands of the power company. A little glitch from your bank, or one of those 2-million-quid bills, and they'll be power-mad keen to disconnect you at the press of a button.

(the hackers won't wait for a full roll-out, there'll be a new exploit every few weeks, until the meter supplier wises up - and finally discovers security)

In fact the hackers will create plausible doubt - that bill can't be right.

I want one that speaks or can be downloaded in real time to a bog standard
textual file I can read on my computer. I also want it not to be able to be
remotely cut off by my or any supplier when the rationing comes. IE if some
nice person cocks up my payments and accidentally cuts me off. This sort of
thing happens on phones but phones can be lived without till you teach them
to be more attentive.
I see smart meters as double edged swords. Fine you can assuming the above
for us blind, would be very handy in making decisions on usage, but if it
allows the supplier to also snoop and start selling the data, or worse
cutting people off by mistake, then no thanks. According to a gov web site I
visited, this conversion to smart meters is supposed to be done by all
suppliers by 2016, so they will need a big push to achieve that. Lets hope
they don't charge us to do it, of course they will who am I kidding? grin

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Michael Chare" mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorgDOTuk wrote in message
o.uk...
I am probably going to change my electricity supplier (i.e. the people I
pay for the supply) to make a small saving.

This has lead me to wonder about smart meters. I would quite like one if
it would provide the data for me to end up with an MS excel graph showing
how much power I use in each hour of the day. Is this likely to be
possible? I don't want to read the meter every hour, I could do that now.

From what I have learnt so far, not all meters are the same, and if you
have one and then change supplier, the new supplier may say that the meter
is incompatible with their systems.

I should say that as a way of life supplying meter readings once a year
and then sorting out the bill is quite good enough for me.


--
Michael Chare

Brian Gaff wrote:
I want one that speaks or can be downloaded in real time to a bog standard
textual file I can read on my computer. (etc)

As Dave said, you don't want a smart meter, what you want is a remote monitor
with appropriate connection to your computer. Too many politicians who don't
know what they're talking about have confused the issue by using the names
and functionalities of two completely different devices interchangably.

JGH

On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 11:20:12 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I want one that speaks or can be downloaded in real time to a bog
standard textual file I can read on my computer. (etc)

The CurrentCost unit outputs plain text XML:

http://www.currentcost.com/cc128/xml.htm

As Dave said, you don't want a smart meter, what you want is a remote
monitor with appropriate connection to your computer. Too many
politicians who don't know what they're talking about have confused the
issue by using the names and functionalities of two completely different
devices interchangably.

Four:

Smart Meter = Stand alone realtime and possibly logging energy
monitor.
Remote usage monitor/display.

Smart Meter = Suppliers meter with remote energy use display. No data

connection to the supplier.

Smart Meter = Suppliers meter with remote energy use display. Data
connection back to the supplier.

Smart Meter = Suppliers meter no remote energy use display. Data
connection back to the supplier.

Though I don't think the last are very common, if they exist. The
politicos wouldn't know that...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 20/09/2013 17:28, Bob Minchin wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:

What I need is my own wired in smart meter.
Have a look at the openenergymonitor website.
Whole load of guys doing open source energy monitoring predominantly in
the uk.

Thank you. That is really quite interesting.

--
Michael Chare

"Michael Chare" mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorgDOTuk wrote in message
o.uk...
I am probably going to change my electricity supplier (i.e. the people I
pay for the supply) to make a small saving.

This has lead me to wonder about smart meters. I would quite like one if
it would provide the data for me to end up with an MS excel graph showing
how much power I use in each hour of the day. Is this likely to be
possible? I don't want to read the meter every hour, I could do that now.

From what I have learnt so far, not all meters are the same, and if you
have one and then change supplier, the new supplier may say that the meter
is incompatible with their systems.

I should say that as a way of life supplying meter readings once a year
and then sorting out the bill is quite good enough for me.


--
Michael Chare

Smart meters are the precurser to the smart grid. It's all about peak
lopping so saving money and energy.
And cut off for non-payment and energy/demand/use regulation/control.
They are at nowhere near their ultimate potenial.
But easily converted once installed.

We'll all have one whether we like it or not.

There is a pliot project going on somewhere in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

On 20/09/2013 15:57 Terry Fields wrote:

These days, like lines of pensioners queueing outside a
possibly-collapsing bank, this sort of thing is very bad publicity
for the government. They have made it a law to keep the news of
possible bank failures secret, so that gets rid of that particular
embarrassment.

Really? Not heard of that one. When did it happen?

--
F

F wrote:

On 20/09/2013 15:57 Terry Fields wrote:

These days, like lines of pensioners queueing outside a
possibly-collapsing bank, this sort of thing is very bad publicity
for the government. They have made it a law to keep the news of
possible bank failures secret, so that gets rid of that particular
embarrassment.

Really? Not heard of that one. When did it happen?

Since banks started to fall over. It was mentioned in a report a few
years ago, but apart from noting the item, I didn't keep a reference,
and being unfamiliar with banking regulation terminology, can't advise
where it might be found.

It could be argued that since deposits are guaranteed up to a
certain level, a run on a bank by wrinklies effectively neither
helps them or the bank, hence the regulation. The US has a similar
scheme to restrict such publication.

--
Terry Fields

On 21/09/2013 14:46 Terry Fields wrote:

a run on a bank by wrinklies

And a derogatory term for someone your age would be?

--
F

I already have a smart meter. I suppose the main advantage is that in theory the meter reader doesn't have to work out how to open my gate (he's failed twice) and I don't have to keep the path to the meter clear of grape vines etc.
Reading up on them makes me want to get a generator in case my meter is switched off or hacked. I already have an inverter that seems to work very well of my car battery.

On Saturday 21 September 2013 15:04 Huge wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 2013-09-21, Terry Fields wrote:
F wrote:

On 20/09/2013 15:57 Terry Fields wrote:

These days, like lines of pensioners queueing outside a
possibly-collapsing bank, this sort of thing is very bad publicity
for the government. They have made it a law to keep the news of
possible bank failures secret, so that gets rid of that particular
embarrassment.

Really? Not heard of that one. When did it happen?

Since banks started to fall over. It was mentioned in a report a few
years ago, but apart from noting the item, I didn't keep a reference,
and being unfamiliar with banking regulation terminology, can't advise
where it might be found.

It could be argued that since deposits are guaranteed up to a
certain level, a run on a bank by wrinklies effectively neither
helps them or the bank, hence the regulation. The US has a similar
scheme to restrict such publication.

I don't believe you.



And it may be "guaranteed" but how long does it take to see your money?

I had some dosh in an icelandic bank and moved it out quick. Glad I did
because the bank went bang a few months later.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

F wrote:

On 21/09/2013 14:46 Terry Fields wrote:

a run on a bank by wrinklies

And a derogatory term for someone your age would be?

Wrinkly.

--
Terry Fields

Huge wrote:

On 2013-09-20, Terry Fields wrote:

They have made it a law to keep the news of
possible bank failures secret,

You have a cite for this nonsense, of course?

Wish I did, but that would mean keeping a searchable record of all
news items I read, and I don't know anyone that does that.

This describes the approximate equivalent in the US:

"Deposit insurance systems insure each depositor up to a certain
amount, so that depositors' savings are protected even if the bank
fails. This removes the incentive to withdraw one's deposits simply
because others are withdrawing theirs.[1] However, depositors may
still be motivated by fears they may lack immediate access to
deposits during a bank reorganization.[6] To avoid such fears
triggering a run, the U.S. FDIC keeps its takeover operations secret,
and re-opens branches under new ownership on the next business
day.[21] Government deposit insurance programs can be ineffective if
the government itself is perceived to be running short of cash.[20]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_run

The secrecy to which I referred might not relate to a failing bank per
se, but the BoE/government's actions in preventing said bank
collapsing. In any case, it stops the queues of wrinkies because they
don't know their bank is going under.

Anyone know any different?

--
Terry Fields

On 20/09/2013 16:30, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:

I am probably going to change my electricity supplier (i.e. the people I
pay for the supply) to make a small saving.

This has lead me to wonder about smart meters. I would quite like one if
it would provide the data for me to end up with an MS excel graph
showing how much power I use in each hour of the day. Is this likely to
be possible? I don't want to read the meter every hour, I could do that now.

From what I have learnt so far, not all meters are the same, and if you
have one and then change supplier, the new supplier may say that the
meter is incompatible with their systems.

I should say that as a way of life supplying meter readings once a year
and then sorting out the bill is quite good enough for me.

As we discussed a few months ago, and the report at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22480068

says, the official "Smart Meter" roll out is running late.
However, various companies are providing what could best be
described as meters which are smarter than the old ones, which
will probably have to be swapped or modified in order to be fully
compliant when the final standards are agreed.

And how many of them will support remote upgrades one wonders?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:
I want one that speaks or can be downloaded in real time to a bog standard
textual file I can read on my computer. (etc)

As Dave said, you don't want a smart meter, what you want is a remote monitor
with appropriate connection to your computer. Too many politicians who don't
know what they're talking about have confused the issue by using the names
and functionalities of two completely different devices interchangably.

JGH


Trouble is the smart meter may be slick and smart but it is not on your
side and is not acting in your interest. A smart meter that was acting
for you would be able to negotiate the best price and switch supplier on
an hour by hour basis and signal to your appliances when it had a good
deal to do the washing in the early morning...

As it is, it is mainly for the power company's convenience with no
guarantees as to how it looks after information it now has about when
your house is occupied.

Chris K

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
I already have a smart meter. I suppose the main advantage is that in
theory the meter reader doesn't have to work out how to open my gate (he's
failed twice) and I don't have to keep the path to the meter clear of
grape vines etc.
Reading up on them makes me want to get a generator in case my meter is
switched off or hacked. I already have an inverter that seems to work very
well of my car battery.


what's wrong with a couple of 6 inch nails, rubber gloves and a jump lead
if/when they do a remote disconnect?

On Sunday, 22 September 2013 10:42:14 UTC+1, Gazz wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

...

I already have a smart meter. I suppose the main advantage is that in

theory the meter reader doesn't have to work out how to open my gate (he's

failed twice) and I don't have to keep the path to the meter clear of

grape vines etc.

Reading up on them makes me want to get a generator in case my meter is

switched off or hacked. I already have an inverter that seems to work very

well of my car battery.





what's wrong with a couple of 6 inch nails, rubber gloves and a jump lead

if/when they do a remote disconnect?

The hackers will get rich offering "remote re-connect".

On Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:42:14 +0100, Gazz wrote:

what's wrong with a couple of 6 inch nails, rubber gloves and a jump
lead if/when they do a remote disconnect?

Bit obvious when they come and read ... oh smart meter no need to
physically read it so they won't be sending a meter reader round as
that is expensive.

Currently isn't there a statutory requirement on the suppliers to
physically read the meter at least every six months? Wonder if that
will change if you have a smart meter and if it does how long before
they "voluntarily" start "reading" smart meters so they can spot such
obvious thefts...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Currently isn't there a statutory requirement on the suppliers to
physically read the meter at least every six months? Wonder if that
will change if you have a smart meter

Not so much as a whisper from either gas or elec meter readers since
mine were fitted 15 months ago.

A few weeks before that that they'd played the "we need to do a safety
inspection" card after I let too many estimates happen in succession,
they turned up on the agreed date, I asked are you here to do a safety
inspection, he said "no mate, I'm just here to read the meter" ... ok
probably they have a cursory safety glance at every meter they read.

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:42:14 +0100, Gazz wrote:

what's wrong with a couple of 6 inch nails, rubber gloves and a jump
lead if/when they do a remote disconnect?

Bit obvious when they come and read ... oh smart meter no need to
physically read it so they won't be sending a meter reader round as
that is expensive.

Currently isn't there a statutory requirement on the suppliers to
physically read the meter at least every six months? Wonder if that
will change if you have a smart meter and if it does how long before
they "voluntarily" start "reading" smart meters so they can spot such
obvious thefts...

I think it's every 2 years although I have seen that slip when met with,
"you can read it at 8am on the NNth, after that I will be out of the
country for 6mths", guess what, no visit and no more reminders.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On Saturday 21 September 2013 15:04 Huge wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 2013-09-21, Terry Fields wrote:
F wrote:

On 20/09/2013 15:57 Terry Fields wrote:

These days, like lines of pensioners queueing outside a
possibly-collapsing bank, this sort of thing is very bad publicity
for the government. They have made it a law to keep the news of
possible bank failures secret, so that gets rid of that particular
embarrassment.

Really? Not heard of that one. When did it happen?

Since banks started to fall over. It was mentioned in a report a few
years ago, but apart from noting the item, I didn't keep a reference,
and being unfamiliar with banking regulation terminology, can't advise
where it might be found.

It could be argued that since deposits are guaranteed up to a
certain level, a run on a bank by wrinklies effectively neither
helps them or the bank, hence the regulation. The US has a similar
scheme to restrict such publication.

I don't believe you.



And it may be "guaranteed" but how long does it take to see your money?

I had some dosh in an icelandic bank and moved it out quick. Glad I did
because the bank went bang a few months later.

So it was you responsible for them going bust?

On 21/09/2013 15:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On Saturday 21 September 2013 15:04 Huge wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 2013-09-21, Terry Fields wrote:
F wrote:

On 20/09/2013 15:57 Terry Fields wrote:

These days, like lines of pensioners queueing outside a
possibly-collapsing bank, this sort of thing is very bad publicity
for the government. They have made it a law to keep the news of
possible bank failures secret, so that gets rid of that particular
embarrassment.

Really? Not heard of that one. When did it happen?

Since banks started to fall over. It was mentioned in a report a few
years ago, but apart from noting the item, I didn't keep a reference,
and being unfamiliar with banking regulation terminology, can't advise
where it might be found.

It could be argued that since deposits are guaranteed up to a
certain level, a run on a bank by wrinklies effectively neither
helps them or the bank, hence the regulation. The US has a similar
scheme to restrict such publication.

I don't believe you.



And it may be "guaranteed" but how long does it take to see your money?

I had some dosh in an icelandic bank and moved it out quick. Glad I did
because the bank went bang a few months later.

Same here... I have a friend who had quite a large amount trapped in
there for a while - took many months to get it back.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/09/2013 11:11, fred wrote:
In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sun, 22 Sep 2013 10:42:14 +0100, Gazz wrote:

what's wrong with a couple of 6 inch nails, rubber gloves and a jump
lead if/when they do a remote disconnect?

Bit obvious when they come and read ... oh smart meter no need to
physically read it so they won't be sending a meter reader round as
that is expensive.

Currently isn't there a statutory requirement on the suppliers to
physically read the meter at least every six months? Wonder if that
will change if you have a smart meter and if it does how long before
they "voluntarily" start "reading" smart meters so they can spot such
obvious thefts...

I think it's every 2 years although I have seen that slip when met with,
"you can read it at 8am on the NNth, after that I will be out of the
country for 6mths", guess what, no visit and no more reminders.

It is every two years and they're strict about it, getting pushy as it
approaches ... until they fail to turn up for the appointment they've
made with you and you've taken time off work for, when suddenly, they
magically don't need to see it!

SteveW