Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

But surely if that is a £64 overpayment you get it back either as a lump
sum refund or by a £64 reduction in your payments for the next year.
There is *no* £64 overall saving. All you may have lost is the interest
on £64 but at current *savings*, ie not current account, rates that is
about a quid. More fecking spin...

It also mentions the privacy issues that half hourly or even daily
readings raise.

Warning over smart meters privacy risk - 12 June 2012
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18407340

The default should be readings only required for billing purposes. As a
country we have been happy with quarterly readings for a long time... If
people wish to opt in to a higher frequency of reading then that is fine
but only as an opt in. With half hour intervals it would be very clear
when the property is actively occupied.

The bills need to have the reading frequency on them as well, so when you
take over a property you know what you have and can get it changed if
required. I bet there is still a possibilty for the meter to do one thing
and the billing system to think another though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

With an effective industry regulator, it could have been the other
way around.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 19/04/13 14:19, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299
Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

Its a desperate measure by the EU to make renewable energy appear to
work, by removing anyone from the grid they dont like, when the sun goes
behind a cloud or the wind stops blowing.

Naturally a fully paid up Party Membership Card will be the best insurance.

With an effective industry regulator, it could have been the other
way around.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

Maybe, but it can be useful. We recently changed to a smart meter at the
burger joint because we could never get a 'real' reading done, as we are not
open during the day. It was a total pain to receive a bill that had been
grossly over-estimated every month, and to then have to get it corrected and
re-issued. The smart meter has sorted that. Mind you, last month, they
reckoned that they couldn't get a signal from it, so booked a service call.
The guy came out and checked it, and said that he didn't know what they were
talking about, as it was working just fine ...

Arfa



With an effective industry regulator, it could have been the other
way around.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:19:27 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

Mind you, last month, they reckoned that they couldn't get a signal
from it, so booked a service call. The guy came out and checked it, and
said that he didn't know what they were talking about, as it was
working just fine ...

Gets man in to look at seals etc after the computer at your suppliers has
sounded an alarm bell about readings being consistently below what they
estimate you should have used...

If they come to fit one here it will be interesting if they rely on 2G.
The meters are inside a windowless boiler room with thick stone walls on
the "wrong" side of the house. There is no mobile signal in there...

If they want to piggy back the broadband they can pay a rental to do so.
I think 5% off the total bill (inc VAT) might be enough but there is no
guarantee what so ever that the connection will be there.

--
Cheers
Dave.

And what time do you use energy? maybe a staggered bill for everybody so 7-10pm costs more.

ALso do the council know you are not living in your house? Maybe you claim single person occupancy but you use a lot of energy.

Maybe you moved into your house for a year or to on the council register and then sold up without using any energy.

Are you renting without declaring it? maybe you used a lot of electrcity while your credit card was used abroad.

Maybe you just forgot to mention any of the above innocently because you couldn't be bothered with the 3rd degree and new paper work. £10,000 court bills and threats of prison for you.

All very scary stuff. I have always wondered why people would want a smart meter, is there anyone every convinced they should get one to save the polar bears? How can fitting a new expensive item so I can say "yes the kettle uses power" be a benefit to me?

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:19:27 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

Mind you, last month, they reckoned that they couldn't get a signal
from it, so booked a service call. The guy came out and checked it, and
said that he didn't know what they were talking about, as it was
working just fine ...

Gets man in to look at seals etc after the computer at your suppliers has
sounded an alarm bell about readings being consistently below what they
estimate you should have used...

That's a possibility that I hadn't considered, but a valid thought, as they
always did manage to way over-estimate what we were actually using. Although
interestingly, they way *under* -estimated what we were *going* to be using
when they set the original tariff. After we complained that we were paying
too much, they re-negotiated the rate, and knocked it down by a third ...


Arfa



If they come to fit one here it will be interesting if they rely on 2G.
The meters are inside a windowless boiler room with thick stone walls on
the "wrong" side of the house. There is no mobile signal in there...

If they want to piggy back the broadband they can pay a rental to do so.
I think 5% off the total bill (inc VAT) might be enough but there is no
guarantee what so ever that the connection will be there.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arfa Daily" wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report
says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

Maybe, but it can be useful. We recently changed to a smart meter at the
burger joint because we could never get a 'real' reading done, as we are
not open during the day. It was a total pain to receive a bill that had
been grossly over-estimated every month, and to then have to get it
corrected and re-issued.

Why don't you read the meter every month and submit the readings online. I
do that for our village hall.

--
Tim


Ha ! Have you ever tried making sense of the readings on a modern electronic
three phase meter ? It tells you just about everything from how much gas
you're using, to the mean distance to the sun ...

Apart from that, remembering to do it every month is as much of a pain as
getting a wrong bill. The smart meter is magic in that it doesn't need
reading, and you get a correct bill every time :-)

Arfa
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines
imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689

On 20/04/13 02:02, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arfa Daily" wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales,
report says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

Maybe, but it can be useful. We recently changed to a smart meter at
the burger joint because we could never get a 'real' reading done,
as we are not open during the day. It was a total pain to receive a
bill that had been grossly over-estimated every month, and to then
have to get it corrected and re-issued.

Why don't you read the meter every month and submit the readings
online. I do that for our village hall.

--
Tim


Ha ! Have you ever tried making sense of the readings on a modern
electronic three phase meter ? It tells you just about everything from
how much gas you're using, to the mean distance to the sun ...

golly. I didnt know you could get 3 phase gas.

Is the solid gas, liquid gas, and gaseous gas?

Apart from that, remembering to do it every month is as much of a pain
as getting a wrong bill. The smart meter is magic in that it doesn't
need reading, and you get a correct bill every time :-)

Arfa
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines
imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 02:39:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ha ! Have you ever tried making sense of the readings on a modern
electronic three phase meter ? It tells you just about everything from
how much gas you're using, to the mean distance to the sun ...

golly. I didnt know you could get 3 phase gas.

Is the solid gas, liquid gas, and gaseous gas?

No wonder he's fazed by it!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 20/04/13 02:02, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arfa Daily" wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales,
report says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

Maybe, but it can be useful. We recently changed to a smart meter at
the burger joint because we could never get a 'real' reading done, as
we are not open during the day. It was a total pain to receive a bill
that had been grossly over-estimated every month, and to then have to
get it corrected and re-issued.

Why don't you read the meter every month and submit the readings online.
I do that for our village hall.

--
Tim


Ha ! Have you ever tried making sense of the readings on a modern
electronic three phase meter ? It tells you just about everything from
how much gas you're using, to the mean distance to the sun ...

golly. I didnt know you could get 3 phase gas.

Is the solid gas, liquid gas, and gaseous gas?

Yep ! Those are the three ... :-)

Arfa



Apart from that, remembering to do it every month is as much of a pain as
getting a wrong bill. The smart meter is magic in that it doesn't need
reading, and you get a correct bill every time :-)

Arfa
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines
imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members
of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded
with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/04/2013 14:19, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

With an effective industry regulator, it could have been the other
way around.


Agreed, however 'smart' the meter is it is not on your side.

Couldn't a really smart meter be on the customers' side and be empowered
to negotiate on behalf of the customer the best tariff on an hour by
hour basis. No obscure 'confusion marketing' deals, just give me your
price for the next hour/day/week? (with a regulated obligation to supply).

Chris K

On 19/04/13 16:23, Chris K wrote:
On 19/04/2013 14:19, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report
says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

With an effective industry regulator, it could have been the other
way around.


Agreed, however 'smart' the meter is it is not on your side.

Couldn't a really smart meter be on the customers' side and be
empowered to negotiate on behalf of the customer the best tariff on an
hour by hour basis. No obscure 'confusion marketing' deals, just give
me your price for the next hour/day/week? (with a regulated obligation
to supply).


I smell the 'raspberry pi meter' in the offing...

Its a lovely thought..


Chris K


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

In article ,
Chris K writes:
On 19/04/2013 14:19, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

With an effective industry regulator, it could have been the other
way around.


Agreed, however 'smart' the meter is it is not on your side.

Couldn't a really smart meter be on the customers' side and be empowered
to negotiate on behalf of the customer the best tariff on an hour by
hour basis. No obscure 'confusion marketing' deals, just give me your
price for the next hour/day/week? (with a regulated obligation to supply).

Yes indeed.
Also things like:
"I need to run my washing machine sometime in the next 48 hours.
Who's going to give me the best price, and at what time?"

So you might try and buy something like your base load (at 500W, say)
for a low fixed price, and then you can choose to buy a peak load
(like a morning shower) from someone else who is more competitive
(and more able) to handle that sort of short burst, but probably at
a higher price.

Instead, all it's likely to bring you is the ability of the supplier
to remotely cut off your supply, or more likely a hacker who gets in
to the supply's computers doing it, possibly as part of switching off
millions of the supplier's customers. I would like to see the disconnect
rights passed over to an independant process that requires court action
first, so the suppliers can get their hands on that switch.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 23:23:44 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Chris K writes:
On 19/04/2013 14:19, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

Smart metering, as currently proposed, is entirely for the benefit
of the suppliers, not you.

With an effective industry regulator, it could have been the other
way around.


Agreed, however 'smart' the meter is it is not on your side.

Couldn't a really smart meter be on the customers' side and be empowered
to negotiate on behalf of the customer the best tariff on an hour by
hour basis. No obscure 'confusion marketing' deals, just give me your
price for the next hour/day/week? (with a regulated obligation to supply).

Yes indeed.
Also things like:
"I need to run my washing machine sometime in the next 48 hours.
Who's going to give me the best price, and at what time?"

So you might try and buy something like your base load (at 500W, say)
for a low fixed price, and then you can choose to buy a peak load
(like a morning shower) from someone else who is more competitive
(and more able) to handle that sort of short burst, but probably at
a higher price.

Sounds to me like it will create loads of extra work for the customer
so they can save a few pence a week. IOW not worth it.

Instead, all it's likely to bring you is the ability of the supplier
to remotely cut off your supply, or more likely a hacker who gets in
to the supply's computers doing it, possibly as part of switching off
millions of the supplier's customers. I would like to see the disconnect
rights passed over to an independant process that requires court action
first, so the suppliers can get their hands on that switch.

Knowing how poor security is often implemented it probably wouldn't
take a hacker to cut your power off, just a kid with a mobile phone.

All disconnections should need a physical visit and it absolutely
should not be able to be done remotely.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:23:42 +0100, Chris K wrote:

with a regulated obligation to supply

That is not part of the legislation, it was an integral part of it for around 50
years but since 1990 no one has any obligation to supply electricity to an end
consumer (same story with gas)

Yet another legacy of the evil bitch Thatcher, the slimy little **** Cecil
Parkinson and the retarded ****, later in the pay of Enron, John Wakeham.

It's a 'free' energy market, a shining example of Thatcherism, greed, short
termism and a **** you mentality. The only purpose of the UK customer is to
bend over and take it up the arse without lubricant every quarter and hand over
huge wodges of cash to the foreigners who now own the vast majority of
generating capacity and distribution networks.


--

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:23:42 +0100, Chris K wrote:

with a regulated obligation to supply

That is not part of the legislation, it was an integral part of it for
around 50
years but since 1990 no one has any obligation to supply electricity to an
end
consumer (same story with gas)

Yet another legacy of the evil bitch Thatcher, the slimy little **** Cecil
Parkinson and the retarded ****, later in the pay of Enron, John Wakeham.

It's a 'free' energy market, a shining example of Thatcherism, greed,
short
termism and a **** you mentality. The only purpose of the UK customer is
to
bend over and take it up the arse without lubricant every quarter and hand
over
huge wodges of cash to the foreigners who now own the vast majority of
generating capacity and distribution networks.




Do I infer from the above that you didn't really take to Mrs T and her
government, then ... ? d;-)

Arfa

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 15:33:46 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Do I infer from the above that you didn't really take to Mrs T and her
government, then ... ? d;-)

You could, not sure how you worked it out.

Brewing up improved ice cream in the lab is by far the absolute pinnacle of her
career. After that it was all downhill. If it had been an animal it would have
been double bagged and chucked in a canal at birth.

Stalin and Pol Pol were IMHO more acceptable leaders of their countries and did
less long term damage than that, from the grave, the Bitch Thatcher, continues
to inflict on this country .

--

On Apr 19, 11:16*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

But surely if that is a £64 overpayment you get it back either as a lump
sum refund or by a £64 reduction in your payments for the next year.
There is *no* £64 overall saving. All you may have lost is the interest
on £64 but at current *savings*, ie not current account, rates that is
about a quid. More fecking spin...

It also mentions the privacy issues that half hourly or even daily
readings raise.

Warning over smart meters privacy risk - 12 June 2012http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18407340

The default should be readings only required for billing purposes. As a
country we have been happy with quarterly readings for a long time... If
people wish to opt in to a higher frequency of reading then that is fine
but only as an opt in. With half hour intervals it would be very clear
when the property is actively occupied.

The bills need to have the reading frequency on them as well, so when you
take over a property you know what you have and can get it changed if
required. I bet there is still a possibilty for the meter to do one thing
and the billing system to think another though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

The real purpose of smart meters is yet to come.
It is as part of a "Smart Grid" that will do lots more including
control of thousands of micro generators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Apr 19, 11:16 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

But surely if that is a £64 overpayment you get it back either as a lump
sum refund or by a £64 reduction in your payments for the next year.
There is *no* £64 overall saving. All you may have lost is the interest
on £64 but at current *savings*, ie not current account, rates that is
about a quid. More fecking spin...

It also mentions the privacy issues that half hourly or even daily
readings raise.

Warning over smart meters privacy risk - 12 June
2012http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18407340

The default should be readings only required for billing purposes. As a
country we have been happy with quarterly readings for a long time... If
people wish to opt in to a higher frequency of reading then that is fine
but only as an opt in. With half hour intervals it would be very clear
when the property is actively occupied.

The bills need to have the reading frequency on them as well, so when you
take over a property you know what you have and can get it changed if
required. I bet there is still a possibilty for the meter to do one thing
and the billing system to think another though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

The real purpose of smart meters is yet to come.
It is as part of a "Smart Grid" that will do lots more including
control of thousands of micro generators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid


That would require some part of the supply industry to make huge equipment
and infrastructure investments from their profits. Whilst they are being
left alone to fleece the public and trouser huge wads of cash for their
shareholders, as they are currently, that ain't never gonna happen ...

Arfa

On Apr 24, 3:27*pm, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...









On Apr 19, 11:16 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report says -
19 April 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

But surely if that is a £64 overpayment you get it back either as a lump
sum refund or by a £64 reduction in your payments for the next year.
There is *no* £64 overall saving. All you may have lost is the interest
on £64 but at current *savings*, ie not current account, rates that is
about a quid. More fecking spin...

It also mentions the privacy issues that half hourly or even daily
readings raise.

Warning over smart meters privacy risk - 12 June
2012http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18407340

The default should be readings only required for billing purposes. As a
country we have been happy with quarterly readings for a long time... If
people wish to opt in to a higher frequency of reading then that is fine
but only as an opt in. With half hour intervals it would be very clear
when the property is actively occupied.

The bills need to have the reading frequency on them as well, so when you
take over a property you know what you have and can get it changed if
required. I bet there is still a possibilty for the meter to do one thing
and the billing system to think another though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

The real purpose of smart meters is yet to come.
It is as part of a "Smart Grid" that will do lots more including
control of thousands of micro generators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

That would require some part of the supply industry to make huge equipment
and infrastructure investments from their profits. Whilst they are being
left alone to fleece the public and trouser huge wads of cash for their
shareholders, as they are currently, that ain't never gonna happen ...

Arfa

Why don't you thonk a smart grid won't help them do this?

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 3:27 pm, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...









On Apr 19, 11:16 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report
says -
19 April 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

But surely if that is a £64 overpayment you get it back either as a
lump
sum refund or by a £64 reduction in your payments for the next year.
There is *no* £64 overall saving. All you may have lost is the
interest
on £64 but at current *savings*, ie not current account, rates that is
about a quid. More fecking spin...

It also mentions the privacy issues that half hourly or even daily
readings raise.

Warning over smart meters privacy risk - 12 June
2012http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18407340

The default should be readings only required for billing purposes. As
a
country we have been happy with quarterly readings for a long time...
If
people wish to opt in to a higher frequency of reading then that is
fine
but only as an opt in. With half hour intervals it would be very clear
when the property is actively occupied.

The bills need to have the reading frequency on them as well, so when
you
take over a property you know what you have and can get it changed if
required. I bet there is still a possibilty for the meter to do one
thing
and the billing system to think another though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

The real purpose of smart meters is yet to come.
It is as part of a "Smart Grid" that will do lots more including
control of thousands of micro generators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

That would require some part of the supply industry to make huge
equipment
and infrastructure investments from their profits. Whilst they are being
left alone to fleece the public and trouser huge wads of cash for their
shareholders, as they are currently, that ain't never gonna happen ...

Arfa

Why don't you thonk a smart grid won't help them do this?


It might, but I think that the initial investment to make it happen, would
not sit well with the shareholders

Arfa

On Apr 25, 1:56*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...









On Apr 24, 3:27 pm, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

....

On Apr 19, 11:16 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Smart meters to save power customers £64 each across Wales, report
says -
19 April 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22205299

But surely if that is a £64 overpayment you get it back either as a
lump
sum refund or by a £64 reduction in your payments for the next year.
There is *no* £64 overall saving. All you may have lost is the
interest
on £64 but at current *savings*, ie not current account, rates that is
about a quid. More fecking spin...

It also mentions the privacy issues that half hourly or even daily
readings raise.

Warning over smart meters privacy risk - 12 June
2012http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18407340

The default should be readings only required for billing purposes. As
a
country we have been happy with quarterly readings for a long time....
If
people wish to opt in to a higher frequency of reading then that is
fine
but only as an opt in. With half hour intervals it would be very clear
when the property is actively occupied.

The bills need to have the reading frequency on them as well, so when
you
take over a property you know what you have and can get it changed if
required. I bet there is still a possibilty for the meter to do one
thing
and the billing system to think another though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

The real purpose of smart meters is yet to come.
It is as part of a "Smart Grid" that will do lots more including
control of thousands of micro generators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

That would require some part of the supply industry to make huge
equipment
and infrastructure investments from their profits. Whilst they are being
left alone to fleece the public and trouser huge wads of cash for their
shareholders, as they are currently, that ain't never gonna happen ...

Arfa

Why don't you thonk a smart grid won't help them do this?

It might, but I think that the initial investment to make it happen, would
not sit well with the shareholders

Arfa

The expensive bit is being done right now (installing the smart
meters). The smart grid is just a matter of co-ordinating them. It
could probably be done with a PC sized computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_g...twork_topology

On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:52:38 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

That would require some part of the supply industry to make huge equipment
and infrastructure investments from their profits. Whilst they are being
left alone to fleece the public and trouser huge wads of cash for their
shareholders, as they are currently, that ain't never gonna happen ...


Why don't you thonk a smart grid won't help them do this?

Dispatch of some generation to support systemn frequnecy already takes place by
a similar mechanism to smart metering, but it is generation, in the order of
100KW upwards, a typical domestic microgenerator is not deemed important enough
to permit such a relationship between the Grid System Operator and the operator
of the generation. There is zero possibility of National Grid getting involved
in mass dispatch of microgeneration.

Smart metering requires a relationship between an infrastructure supplier and
the customer. The infrastructure supplier is, in a great many cases in the UK,
not a generator or distributor of electricity. In a nationalised or vertically
integrated utility, with large air conditioning or resistive heating load then
smart metering could work, in the free for all 'wild west' deregulated UK market
with very little electrical resistance heating it makes no sense for anyone to
get involved. Never let it be understood the free market is broken, there is no
obligation to supply, there is no incentive to invest long term in significant
areas in the UK energy sector. (the root causes are well known)

The most significant feature of smart metering is demand management. This
works, and has worked for many years, mainly, but not exclusively with
industrial and commercial users. The electricity distributor can achieve much
more for far less by targeting industrial and commercial users rather than
domestic consumers.

Extending demand management to consumer level requires the split of loads within
a property between essentials and interruptible's (unless we adopt 'smart,
individually addressable mains plugs). This is on top of the smart meter and
the infrastructure to support that. The infrastructure to support
disconnections using power line carrier techniques from the local distribution
point (3.3/6.6/11kV) was actually trialled many years ago, to do so now is very
prone to failure due to the widespread use of unlicenced homeplug devices that
do not meet any standards for interference and immunity. So you are stuck with
2G or 3G wireless comms, fixed line telephony, or a broadband connection for the
delivery of your disconnect and reconnect requests. Fixed infrastructure is
probably more reliable.

To implement smart metering in a new property might only cost around £100 on top
of the cost of the meter (an additional one or two none essential rings or
radials) To implement this on the existing housing stock could be anything from
5x that cost to the cost of a complete rewire which could be many thousands in
both the cost and remedial works.

Given the amount of housing stock replaced each year, and the timeframe of full
refurbishments then it's not going to happen.

Fundamentally it boils down to the fact that an investment in smart metering,
that is at around 100% of the retail cost of electricity consumed per annum,
that has the ability to trim demand by only a few % maybe twice per day for 30
minutes per day makes no commercial sense. The payback period is almost
certainly longer than the asset life of very longest lived assets on the
existing electricity grid.

If someone can afford to implement smart metering then they can make more money
from building a wind turbine or a CCGT.


--

On Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:34:15 +0100, The Other Mike
wrote:

If someone can afford to implement smart metering then they can make more money
from building a wind turbine or a CCGT.

But the entire cost of the smart meters will be passed onto the
customers so the energy companies will not oppose it.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?