I have a project coming up later in the year, that will involve getting a
reasonably nice paint finish on some metal. Having a half-way decent
compressor, and spray guns being cheap, I though this might be an
opportunity to get a gun, and give it a go. Trouble is, I don't know what
sort of gun to go for.

As far as I can see, there seems to be two basic flavours : Suction feed,
and gravity feed. I'm inclined towards a gravity feed, just because it sort
of 'feels' right - not that I've ever actually held one, if you see what I
mean ... Also, I've seen Rick on American Restoration using one. Trouble
is, I don't seem to be able to get a definitive answer from anyone on what
is the most appropriate use of each type. It always seems to be a bit of a

"Hmmm, well ... it depends, you see ..."

"Errr, yes ... ? On what exactly ...?"

Well, for some jobs one is better than the other, really ..."

"Errr, yes ... ? So which would you use for which sort of job ?"

"Well, it depends, really ... "

And so it goes on in ever decreasing circles :-\

So what's the story ? Is it just whatever feels comfortable, and there's not
a lot to choose between either basic type ? Looking at f'rinstance Toolsatan
they have 27117 and 55471, both suction and the second a tenner dearer than
the first, and then 70796 and 14021, both gravity feed, and again, the
second a tenner dearer than the first.

I am confused, Anyone with genuine experience care to enlighten me ? :-)

Arfa

I've done a bit of spraying over the years - cellulose on cars. And a
decent gun and compressor ain't cheap. You'll also need an air drier, as
blobs of water tend to ruin a finish.

To be honest, something like an Apollo HVLP spray set is probably cheaper.
I have one and am happy with it. Cost about 200 quid. The turbine gets
used for other things too like blowing water out of pipes when doing a
solder repair.

That's not to say a high pressure unit isn't ultimately better - just *a
lot* more expensive. A decent gun will cost about the same - and as I said
you also need a good clean supply of compressed air that most domestic
compressors can't manage.

--
*El nino made me do it

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Arfa Daily wrote:

I am confused, Anyone with genuine experience care to enlighten me ? :-)

Well... it's probably weird prejudice but I prefer gravity feed to
suction spray guns. And there's really not a lot to choose between them.
Technique and practice count for a lot. I'd start by spraying scraps of
plywood and possibly random lengths of wood screwed to the plywood to
get the hang of it first. That way you learn how to set up the gun the
way you want it to work. You also get a feel for too close, too dilute,
too far away and too low a spray volume and what that means in terms of
finish.

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

On Tuesday, May 28, 2013 3:13:01 PM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:
I have a project coming up later in the year, that will involve getting a

reasonably nice paint finish on some metal. Having a half-way decent

compressor, and spray guns being cheap, I though this might be an

opportunity to get a gun, and give it a go. Trouble is, I don't know what

sort of gun to go for.



As far as I can see, there seems to be two basic flavours : Suction feed,

and gravity feed. I'm inclined towards a gravity feed, just because it sort

of 'feels' right - not that I've ever actually held one, if you see what I

mean ... Also, I've seen Rick on American Restoration using one. Trouble

is, I don't seem to be able to get a definitive answer from anyone on what

is the most appropriate use of each type. It always seems to be a bit of a



"Hmmm, well ... it depends, you see ..."



"Errr, yes ... ? On what exactly ...?"



Well, for some jobs one is better than the other, really ..."



"Errr, yes ... ? So which would you use for which sort of job ?"



"Well, it depends, really ... "



And so it goes on in ever decreasing circles :-\



So what's the story ? Is it just whatever feels comfortable, and there's not

a lot to choose between either basic type ? Looking at f'rinstance Toolsatan

they have 27117 and 55471, both suction and the second a tenner dearer than

the first, and then 70796 and 14021, both gravity feed, and again, the

second a tenner dearer than the first.



I am confused, Anyone with genuine experience care to enlighten me ? :-)



Arfa

I have an Earlex HVLP sprayer which I find easy to use as it has minimum controls. Less bounce back and misting also, in my hands anyway. I found, with compressor operated units, that by the time I had finished faffing about with pressures, air volume, nozzles etc I would have had the job done with a brush with less cleaning up to do when finished.

In article ,
fred wrote:
I found, with compressor operated units, that by the time I had finished
faffing about with pressures, air volume, nozzles etc I would have had
the job done with a brush with less cleaning up to do when finished.

Fine if you're happy with the finish a brush produces.

--
*Fax is stronger than fiction *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:35:01 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

I found, with compressor operated units, that by the time I had finished

faffing about with pressures, air volume, nozzles etc I would have had

the job done with a brush with less cleaning up to do when finished.



Fine if you're happy with the finish a brush produces.



--

*Fax is stronger than fiction *



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

No problem getting a superb finish with a brush and without the risk of getting that jammy/treacly look that a too heavy spray coat can give.

Good brush, good paint/varnish, and go down through the abrasive grades.

In article ,
fred wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:35:01 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

I found, with compressor operated units, that by the time I had
finished

faffing about with pressures, air volume, nozzles etc I would have
had

the job done with a brush with less cleaning up to do when finished.



Fine if you're happy with the finish a brush produces.


No problem getting a superb finish with a brush and without the risk of
getting that jammy/treacly look that a too heavy spray coat can give.

All you're saying is you don't know how to spray.

Good brush, good paint/varnish, and go down through the abrasive grades.

Quite. Sanding out the brush marks is far more work than the light
flatting needed between spray coats.

Plus the fact that many brushing paints can't be flatted then polished in
the same way as spray paints can.

--
*I didn't like my beard at first. Then it grew on me.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
fred wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:35:01 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

I found, with compressor operated units, that by the time I had
finished

faffing about with pressures, air volume, nozzles etc I would have
had

the job done with a brush with less cleaning up to do when finished.



Fine if you're happy with the finish a brush produces.


No problem getting a superb finish with a brush and without the risk of
getting that jammy/treacly look that a too heavy spray coat can give.

All you're saying is you don't know how to spray.

Good brush, good paint/varnish, and go down through the abrasive grades.

Quite. Sanding out the brush marks is far more work than the light
flatting needed between spray coats.

Plus the fact that many brushing paints can't be flatted then polished in
the same way as spray paints can.

--
*I didn't like my beard at first. Then it grew on me.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


I've decided in the end to go for automotive spray cans - largely because a
relation is in the business, and can get them for me at trade price ...

Arfa

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I've decided in the end to go for automotive spray cans - largely
because a relation is in the business, and can get them for me at trade
price ...

It is possible to get very good results with rattle cans - provided you do
enough coats. They tend to apply a rather thinner layer than a proper
spray gun. But for a one off still going to be a lot cheaper than buying
decent spray equipment you might not use again.

--
*Preserve wildlife - Go pickle a squirrel*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sunday, June 9, 2013 7:02:02 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:35:01 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,



fred wrote:



I found, with compressor operated units, that by the time I had

finished



faffing about with pressures, air volume, nozzles etc I would have

had



the job done with a brush with less cleaning up to do when finished..







Fine if you're happy with the finish a brush produces.





No problem getting a superb finish with a brush and without the risk of

getting that jammy/treacly look that a too heavy spray coat can give.



All you're saying is you don't know how to spray.



Good brush, good paint/varnish, and go down through the abrasive grades..



Quite. Sanding out the brush marks is far more work than the light

flatting needed between spray coats.



Plus the fact that many brushing paints can't be flatted then polished in

the same way as spray paints can.



--

*I didn't like my beard at first. Then it grew on me.*



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

If you are sanding out brush marks you are using bad paint. Good paint applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to self level. There is no earthly reason why it cannot be flattened and polished

(The problem I had with water based paints was that they dry too quickly before they flow out completely, or the ones I tried did.

And I can cut in cleanly so no need to spend time masking off and removing the masking tape afterwards and praying it doesn't destroy the nice clean edge.

And I can clean a brush in about 2 minutes or even leave it wrapped in cling film for a short while if I'm taking a break. Cant do that with any spray gun I ever used. At a minimum they need a blast through with gun cleaner which means finding some where to do that

And when I've finished with the paint I just replace the lid on the tin. No faffing about cleaning out pots etc.

Incidentally I've been using a sprayer for years. Used to work in the industry.

In article ,
fred wrote:
If you are sanding out brush marks you are using bad paint. Good paint
applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to self level.
There is no earthly reason why it cannot be flattened and polished

Which types of brushing paint can be flatted then polished afterwards?

(The problem I had with water based paints was that they dry too quickly
before they flow out completely, or the ones I tried did.

And I can cut in cleanly so no need to spend time masking off and
removing the masking tape afterwards and praying it doesn't destroy the
nice clean edge.

And I can clean a brush in about 2 minutes or even leave it wrapped in
cling film for a short while if I'm taking a break. Cant do that with
any spray gun I ever used. At a minimum they need a blast through with
gun cleaner which means finding some where to do that

And when I've finished with the paint I just replace the lid on the tin.
No faffing about cleaning out pots etc.

Incidentally I've been using a sprayer for years. Used to work in the
industry.

I found, with compressor operated units, that by the time I had

finished



faffing about with pressures, air volume, nozzles etc

That quote from you suggests not.

--
*If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:56:01 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

If you are sanding out brush marks you are using bad paint. Good paint

applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to self level.

There is no earthly reason why it cannot be flattened and polished



Which types of brushing paint can be flatted then polished afterwards?



(The problem I had with water based paints was that they dry too quickly

before they flow out completely, or the ones I tried did.



And I can cut in cleanly so no need to spend time masking off and

removing the masking tape afterwards and praying it doesn't destroy the

nice clean edge.



And I can clean a brush in about 2 minutes or even leave it wrapped in

cling film for a short while if I'm taking a break. Cant do that with

any spray gun I ever used. At a minimum they need a blast through with

gun cleaner which means finding some where to do that



And when I've finished with the paint I just replace the lid on the tin..

No faffing about cleaning out pots etc.



Incidentally I've been using a sprayer for years. Used to work in the

industry.



I found, with compressor operated units, that by the time I had



finished







faffing about with pressures, air volume, nozzles etc



That quote from you suggests not.



--

*If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Any decent oil based paint can be flattened and polished once dry. I have gone down progressively to 800g wet and dry silicon carbide paper on panel doors and got a very high gloss finish without polishing.

There is no earthly reason why any oil painted surface can not be polished. I've done it with car cutting compound. Lot of trouble. Not worth the effort to my mind.

Au contraire, because of my experience, though many years ago, I do know what I am talking about. Unless I have a large surface to finish I don't bother with any spray equipment for the reasons given. Too much faffing about. Even to paint a fence it requires laying down dust sheets to protect the area in front of the fence whether its grass or tarmacadam and then one has to be aware of overspray and the neighbours, not on a windy day etc. None of these things are a problem
if using a brush

If finishing a piece of woodwork and I want to spray it, and I do have HVLP equipment, I have to set up a temporary spray booth and am limited to water based finishes not having the proper spark proof extractor fans etc.

I often resort to spray cans from B&Q. Might take a lot of coats but cuts out all the above faffing about.

In article ,
fred wrote:
Au contraire, because of my experience, though many years ago, I do know
what I am talking about. Unless I have a large surface to finish I don't
bother with any spray equipment for the reasons given. Too much faffing
about. Even to paint a fence it requires laying down dust sheets to
protect the area in front of the fence whether its grass or tarmacadam
and then one has to be aware of overspray and the neighbours, not on a
windy day etc. None of these things are a problem if using a brush

If finishing a piece of woodwork and I want to spray it, and I do have
HVLP equipment, I have to set up a temporary spray booth and am limited
to water based finishes not having the proper spark proof extractor fans
etc.

Read the original post. The question was about getting a good finish on
metal - not slapping some paint on a skirting or fence.

--
*To err is human. To forgive is against company policy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, June 10, 2013 1:59:49 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

Au contraire, because of my experience, though many years ago, I do know

what I am talking about. Unless I have a large surface to finish I don't

bother with any spray equipment for the reasons given. Too much faffing

about. Even to paint a fence it requires laying down dust sheets to

protect the area in front of the fence whether its grass or tarmacadam

and then one has to be aware of overspray and the neighbours, not on a

windy day etc. None of these things are a problem if using a brush



If finishing a piece of woodwork and I want to spray it, and I do have

HVLP equipment, I have to set up a temporary spray booth and am limited

to water based finishes not having the proper spark proof extractor fans

etc.



Read the original post. The question was about getting a good finish on

metal - not slapping some paint on a skirting or fence.



--

*To err is human. To forgive is against company policy.



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

You are long enough in the tooth to know that threads develop and get away from the original discussion, which is what this thread has done. It has developed into a general discussion on the pros and cons of spraying versus brushing. You have in fact been indulging in this developed discussion so its a little late not to mention disingenous ( http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dic...h/disingenuous) to try that one on now.

In message
fred wrote:

On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:56:01 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:



Any decent oil based paint can be flattened and polished once dry. I
have gone down progressively to 800g wet and dry silicon carbide paper
on panel doors and got a very high gloss finish without polishing.

You can do this to a certain degree with Alkyd resin based paint, but
you can't use the same polishing methods that you would use on a modern
car finish as Car paint finishes are a completely different composition
altogether.

There is no earthly reason why any oil painted surface can not be
polished. I've done it with car cutting compound. Lot of trouble. Not
worth the effort to my mind.

Synthetics need a completely different technique as regard to polishing.

Stephen.



--

In message
fred wrote:


[snip]

If you are sanding out brush marks you are using bad paint. Good paint
applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to self level.
There is no earthly reason why it cannot be flattened and polished

Not necessarily as that would depend on the type of paint used
obviously, there are not many modern paints that actually flow out
properly.

(The problem I had with water based paints was that they dry too
quickly before they flow out completely, or the ones I tried did.

Water based paint does not flow out like conventionional oil paint.


Stephen


--

On 11/06/2013 23:41, wrote:
In message
fred wrote:


[snip]

If you are sanding out brush marks you are using bad paint. Good paint
applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to self level.
There is no earthly reason why it cannot be flattened and polished

Not necessarily as that would depend on the type of paint used
obviously, there are not many modern paints that actually flow out
properly.

(The problem I had with water based paints was that they dry too
quickly before they flow out completely, or the ones I tried did.

Water based paint does not flow out like conventionional oil paint.


Stephen


I have found (on occasion) that adding a very small amount of water has
made water-based paints much more pleasant to use and gave a better finish.

--
Rod

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:41:10 PM UTC+1, wrote:
In message

fred wrote:



On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:56:01 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,



fred wrote:







Any decent oil based paint can be flattened and polished once dry. I

have gone down progressively to 800g wet and dry silicon carbide paper

on panel doors and got a very high gloss finish without polishing.



You can do this to a certain degree with Alkyd resin based paint, but

you can't use the same polishing methods that you would use on a modern

car finish as Car paint finishes are a completely different composition

altogether.



There is no earthly reason why any oil painted surface can not be

polished. I've done it with car cutting compound. Lot of trouble. Not

worth the effort to my mind.



Synthetics need a completely different technique as regard to polishing.



Stephen.







--

I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.

Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics. The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:41:14 PM UTC+1, wrote:
In message

fred wrote:





[snip]



If you are sanding out brush marks you are using bad paint. Good paint

applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to self level.

There is no earthly reason why it cannot be flattened and polished



Not necessarily as that would depend on the type of paint used

obviously, there are not many modern paints that actually flow out

properly.



WHAT ??

Not many modern paints flow out properly ? You are taking the mick or know not of what you speak




(The problem I had with water based paints was that they dry too

quickly before they flow out completely, or the ones I tried did.



Water based paint does not flow out like conventionional oil paint.



Which is what I said.





Stephen





--

In message
fred wrote:


[snip]


There is no earthly reason why any oil painted surface can not be

polished. I've done it with car cutting compound. Lot of trouble. Not

worth the effort to my mind.



Synthetics need a completely different technique as regard to polishing.



Stephen.

--

I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly
very fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really
relevant.

I beg to differ..........

The composition of the paint IS the point and it is also very relevant.
You can polish any paint surface but you can't expect to get the same
results on an oil based finish by used polishing compounds used in the
same way as on Acrylic, Cellulose or two-component paints.

Oil paints are not designed to be polished, they are either gun or brush
finish, but you may be able to polish certain Alkyd based oil paints
only if its main component is Alkyd resin because its actually the hard
resin you polish, unlike car finishes the above synthetic type paints
form a skin that cannot be polished as you would expect to do on a
conventional car paint finish.


Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are
synthetics. The difference lies in the medium used to hold the
pigments.

Generally a synthetic (oil paint) is not soluble in its own solvent
whereas car finishes are, you can use the same pigment yes but the
solvents and medium make all the difference.

Acrylic, Cellulose and Twin-pack paints are not called synthetics.

So try polishing a Linseed oil based paint or single component
Polyurethane paint by hand or mechanically and see what you get, these
are all synthetic skin forming paints that cannot be polished the same
as car finishes.

Stephen.

--

In message
fred wrote:

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:41:14 PM UTC+1, wrote:
In message

fred wrote:


If you are sanding out brush marks you are using bad paint. Good paint

applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to self level.

There is no earthly reason why it cannot be flattened and polished



Not necessarily as that would depend on the type of paint used

obviously, there are not many modern paints that actually flow out

properly.



WHAT ??

Not many modern paints flow out properly ? You are taking the mick or
know not of what you speak



Have you tried to paint a furniture van, bus or coach using a brush in a
modern oil paint? If you have you'd know what I mean with regard to
paint not flowing out properly.
spraying can produce a different result but try brushing then come back
and say they flow out properly.

Stephen


--

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 10:33:21 AM UTC+1, wrote:
In message

fred wrote:



On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:41:14 PM UTC+1, wrote:

In message



fred wrote:





If you are sanding out brush marks you are using bad paint. Good paint



applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to self level.



There is no earthly reason why it cannot be flattened and polished







Not necessarily as that would depend on the type of paint used



obviously, there are not many modern paints that actually flow out



properly.







WHAT ??



Not many modern paints flow out properly ? You are taking the mick or

know not of what you speak







Have you tried to paint a furniture van, bus or coach using a brush in a

modern oil paint? If you have you'd know what I mean with regard to

paint not flowing out properly.

spraying can produce a different result but try brushing then come back

and say they flow out properly.



Stephen





--

Ah well we are arguing from the general to the particular now. I wouldn't dream of trying to paint a van with a brush and oil paint. Horses for courses, I was thinking more of general domestic uses.

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 10:26:51 AM UTC+1, wrote:
In message

fred wrote:





[snip]





There is no earthly reason why any oil painted surface can not be



polished. I've done it with car cutting compound. Lot of trouble. Not



worth the effort to my mind.







Synthetics need a completely different technique as regard to polishing.







Stephen.



--



I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly

very fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really

relevant.



I beg to differ..........



The composition of the paint IS the point and it is also very relevant.

You can polish any paint surface


Which is where I came in.


but you can't expect to get the same

results on an oil based finish by used polishing compounds used in the

same way as on Acrylic, Cellulose or two-component paints.



I never claimed one could. Obviuosly the product used will affect the final outcome



Oil paints are not designed to be polished, they are either gun or brush

finish, but you may be able to polish certain Alkyd based oil paints

only if its main component is Alkyd resin because its actually the hard

resin you polish, unlike car finishes the above synthetic type paints

form a skin that cannot be polished as you would expect to do on a

conventional car paint finish.


I continue to disagree. I have polished oil based painted surfaces in situations where I required a high gloss, and certainly got a high gloss finish.. (Detailing on furniture)It's not something I would do on a regular basis as it is too tedious for the gains obtained. I usually find that going down to 600/800g paper before applying the final finish gives me a satisfactory finish. After that its down to brush technique

I'm sorry we are getting away from the general discussion as to the ability to polish a brush painted surface which is where I came in.

I worked for a number of years for one of the now defunct industrial paint manufacturers so I do have a little experience to call on. My duties involved problem solving which by its nature meant I frequently had to demonstrate various finishing techniques to show that the problem allegedly with the paint was actually and usually down to operator error.



Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are

synthetics. The difference lies in the medium used to hold the

pigments.



Generally a synthetic (oil paint) is not soluble in its own solvent

whereas car finishes are, you can use the same pigment yes but the

solvents and medium make all the difference.



Acrylic, Cellulose and Twin-pack paints are not called synthetics.



So try polishing a Linseed oil based paint or single component

Polyurethane paint by hand or mechanically and see what you get, these

are all synthetic skin forming paints that cannot be polished the same

as car finishes.

Never discussed car finishes.





Stephen.



--

In article ,
fred wrote:
I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very
fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.

So you are saying you can flat any household paint, then polish - as is
the norm with car paints?

Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics.
The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.

And you said you were experienced with spray paints?

--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
fred wrote:
Ah well we are arguing from the general to the particular now. I
wouldn't dream of trying to paint a van with a brush and oil paint.
Horses for courses, I was thinking more of general domestic uses.

It's you who is arguing a point that only you made. No one in their right
mind would attempt to spray the sort of household bits that would normally
be brush painted, like the woodwork in a room. Doors and skirting, etc.

But it is possible to paint a vehicle by brush and get excellent results.
It was once how all vehicles were painted.

--
*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
Any decent oil based paint can be flattened and polished once dry. I
have gone down progressively to 800g wet and dry silicon carbide paper
on panel doors and got a very high gloss finish without polishing.

You can do this to a certain degree with Alkyd resin based paint, but
you can't use the same polishing methods that you would use on a modern
car finish as Car paint finishes are a completely different composition
altogether.

There is no earthly reason why any oil painted surface can not be
polished. I've done it with car cutting compound. Lot of trouble. Not
worth the effort to my mind.

Synthetics need a completely different technique as regard to polishing.

Quite. I do sometimes wonder what Fred's on.

--
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:13:11 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very

fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.



So you are saying you can flat any household paint, then polish - as is

the norm with car paints?



Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics.

The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.



And you said you were experienced with spray paints?



--

*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Yes. And I stand by my statement all paints are synthetic. I dont know any volume manufacturer who is currently using 'natural' base materials

On 12/06/2013 12:58, fred wrote:
Yes. And I stand by my statement all paints are synthetic. I dont know any volume manufacturer who is currently using 'natural' base materials

I know that at least one fairly major manufacturer of paints in the UK
uses vast quantities of soy oil. Possibly depends on definition of "base
materials".

--
Rod

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:13:11 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very

fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.



So you are saying you can flat any household paint, then polish - as is

the norm with car paints?



Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned car paints and yes you can flat any oil based household paint and after applying the final coat the surface can be brought up by polishing.

This is nothing unusual.

Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics.

The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.



And you said you were experienced with spray paints?



--

*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:19:10 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

Ah well we are arguing from the general to the particular now. I

wouldn't dream of trying to paint a van with a brush and oil paint.

Horses for courses, I was thinking more of general domestic uses.



It's you who is arguing a point that only you made. No one in their right

mind would attempt to spray the sort of household bits that would normally

be brush painted, like the woodwork in a room. Doors and skirting, etc.



But it is possible to paint a vehicle by brush and get excellent results.

It was once how all vehicles were painted.



--

*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What are you wittering on about. Who is talking about spraying household bits ? ISTR you are the advocate of spray painting not me. I fear you have got lost in this thread and are mixing up contributions from different people

In article ,
fred wrote:
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned car paints and
yes you can flat any oil based household paint and after applying the
final coat the surface can be brought up by polishing.

This is nothing unusual.

I'm saying it is. It forms a skin which gives the gloss. Remove that and
you'll never get the gloss back without re-painting.

--
*I tried to catch some fog, but I mist.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:50:06 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned car paints and

yes you can flat any oil based household paint and after applying the

final coat the surface can be brought up by polishing.



This is nothing unusual.



I'm saying it is. It forms a skin which gives the gloss. Remove that and

you'll never get the gloss back without re-painting.



--

*I tried to catch some fog, but I mist.*



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Nonsense. It doesn't form a skin. It hardens into a solid film. You can chip it off. It only skins over if too much is applied.

Within reason any solid hard surface can be polished.

In message
fred wrote:

[snip]



Have you tried to paint a furniture van, bus or coach using a brush in a

modern oil paint? If you have you'd know what I mean with regard to

paint not flowing out properly.

spraying can produce a different result but try brushing then come back

and say they flow out properly.



Stephen





--

Ah well we are arguing from the general to the particular now. I
wouldn't dream of trying to paint a van with a brush and oil paint.
Horses for courses, I was thinking more of general domestic uses.


But you said

"Good paint applied correctly has flow characteristics that allow it to
self level".

Define good paint.


--

In message
fred wrote:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 10:26:51 AM UTC+1, wrote:
In message

fred wrote:


Synthetics need a completely different technique as regard to polishing.



Stephen.



I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly

very fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really

relevant.



I beg to differ..........



The composition of the paint IS the point and it is also very relevant.

You can polish any paint surface


Which is where I came in.


but you can't expect to get the same

results on an oil based finish by used polishing compounds used in the

same way as on Acrylic, Cellulose or two-component paints.



I never claimed one could. Obviuosly the product used will affect the final outcome



Oil paints are not designed to be polished, they are either gun or brush

finish, but you may be able to polish certain Alkyd based oil paints

only if its main component is Alkyd resin because its actually the hard

resin you polish, unlike car finishes the above synthetic type paints

form a skin that cannot be polished as you would expect to do on a

conventional car paint finish.


I continue to disagree. I have polished oil based painted surfaces in
situations where I required a high gloss, and certainly got a high
gloss finish. (Detailing on furniture)It's not something I would do on
a regular basis as it is too tedious for the gains obtained. I usually
find that going down to 600/800g paper before applying the final finish
gives me a satisfactory finish. After that its down to brush technique

Describe exactly what type of oil paint you can polish? No modern oil
paint needs polishing as the finish cannot be improved by polishing a
film that is not designed to be polished.

I'm sorry we are getting away from the general discussion as to the
ability to polish a brush painted surface which is where I came in.

I worked for a number of years for one of the now defunct industrial
paint manufacturers so I do have a little experience to call on. My
duties involved problem solving which by its nature meant I frequently
had to demonstrate various finishing techniques to show that the
problem allegedly with the paint was actually and usually down to
operator error.



Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are

synthetics. The difference lies in the medium used to hold the

pigments.



Generally a synthetic (oil paint) is not soluble in its own solvent

whereas car finishes are, you can use the same pigment yes but the

solvents and medium make all the difference.



Acrylic, Cellulose and Twin-pack paints are not called synthetics.



So try polishing a Linseed oil based paint or single component

Polyurethane paint by hand or mechanically and see what you get, these

are all synthetic skin forming paints that cannot be polished the same

as car finishes.

Never discussed car finishes.


You mentioned using a car finishing polishing method on oil paint, which
is not possible or required on oil.


--

In message
fred wrote:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:13:11 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very

fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.



So you are saying you can flat any household paint, then polish - as is

the norm with car paints?



Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics.

The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.



And you said you were experienced with spray paints?



--

*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Yes. And I stand by my statement all paints are synthetic. I dont know
any volume manufacturer who is currently using 'natural' base materials

Any oil based paint is described as a synthetic, for example Linseed,
Alkyd, Polyurethane and basically any paint that can be diluted in
Turpentine, whereas Cellulose, Acrylic, and two component are not.

Stephen.


--

In message
fred wrote:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:50:06 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned car paints and

yes you can flat any oil based household paint and after applying the

final coat the surface can be brought up by polishing.



This is nothing unusual.



I'm saying it is. It forms a skin which gives the gloss. Remove that and

you'll never get the gloss back without re-painting.



--

*I tried to catch some fog, but I mist.*



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Nonsense. It doesn't form a skin. It hardens into a solid film. You
can chip it off. It only skins over if too much is applied.

Within reason any solid hard surface can be polished.


Nonsense indeed!

It does form a skin, that how synthetics work, you are describing
polishing this skin which as you say can chip off.
It is still a skin whatever the thickness of paint applied either by
spray or brush, you don't get this skin with none synthetic paints.

None synthetics are soluble in their own solvent they resoften melt or
bond to form one solid layer of paint which can be very thick.
Synthetics or oil paint sits on top of each subsequent layer and it is
this layer or skin you are polishing.

Stephen


--

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:15:13 PM UTC+1, wrote:
In message

fred wrote:



On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:13:11 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,



fred wrote:



I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very



fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.







So you are saying you can flat any household paint, then polish - as is



the norm with car paints?







Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics.



The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.







And you said you were experienced with spray paints?







--



*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up







Dave Plowman London SW



To e-mail, change noise into sound.



Yes. And I stand by my statement all paints are synthetic. I dont know

any volume manufacturer who is currently using 'natural' base materials



Any oil based paint is described as a synthetic, for example Linseed,

Alkyd, Polyurethane and basically any paint that can be diluted in

Turpentine, whereas Cellulose, Acrylic, and two component are not.



Stephen.





--

Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household paint some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut. Result can be seen at link.

http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/

Now all you 'experts' can squirm and argue all you like. Proof of ability to polish household paint is provided. You can even see the rag where the 'T' cut removed a little of the surface.

Please do not discuss quality of painting etc. This is just an old box I was experimenting with. MDF primed and one coat of household paint applied.

And equally I don't want to read any rubbish about 'T' cut removing a little of the surface and not really polishing etc.

Not interested in semantics discussing definitions of 'polished'

Not interested in reasons only results. It polished the surface. The higher level of gloss can be seen. It might not be a mirror finish but I really couldn't be arsed going to a lot of trouble just to prove the point.

All this discussion about the make up of different paints making some unsuitable to be polished is irrelevant twaddle.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating.

And no I haven't photo-shopped it or made any corrections to it. Straight from the iPhone.

In article ,
wrote:
Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my
workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household paint
some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut. Result
can be seen at link.

http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/

Now all you 'experts' can squirm and argue all you like. Proof of
ability to polish household paint is provided. You can even see the rag
where the 'T' cut removed a little of the surface.


And just how long had this been left before you attempted this? With car
paints, you can flat back and polish shortly after application. With
household oil paints you'd be talking months - if ever.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my
workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household paint
some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut. Result
can be seen at link.

http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/

Your idea of polishing something appears to be going from very very very
rough to very very rough.

Try polishing it to a true mirror finish.

That some paint has come off on the cloth means you've used an abrasive.
Same would happen with sand paper.

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message
wrote:



Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my
workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household
paint some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut.
Result can be seen at link.

http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/

Now all you 'experts' can squirm and argue all you like. Proof of
ability to polish household paint is provided. You can even see the rag
where the 'T' cut removed a little of the surface.

Please do not discuss quality of painting etc. This is just an old box
I was experimenting with. MDF primed and one coat of household paint
applied.

And equally I don't want to read any rubbish about 'T' cut removing a
little of the surface and not really polishing etc.

Not interested in semantics discussing definitions of 'polished'

Not interested in reasons only results. It polished the surface. The
higher level of gloss can be seen. It might not be a mirror finish but
I really couldn't be arsed going to a lot of trouble just to prove the
point.

All this discussion about the make up of different paints making some
unsuitable to be polished is irrelevant twaddle.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating.

And no I haven't photo-shopped it or made any corrections to it.
Straight from the iPhone.


That does not prove is can be polished, all you've done it remove a
tiny amount of paint which has improved the shine slightly.

To polish a traditional Linseed oil based paint you would have used
pumice powder or cuttlefish bone as a slurry compound as this was used
in various degrees of fineness to either flat or enhance a shine on an
oil finish, think horse drawn carriages.

You CANNOT polish oil paint using modern car finishing compounds like
T-cut or Farecla etc because they are too course a substance.
Traditional oil paint can only be polished using Rottenstone or similar
ultra fine polishing compounds (Liberol range for example) and even then
you still polish the skin.

You could use modern wet-or-dry sand papers but this method is far less
effective than the old fashioned methods used on oil paints.

Stephen.


--
http://coachpainting.info
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce