In message
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my
workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household paint
some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut. Result
can be seen at link.

http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/

Now all you 'experts' can squirm and argue all you like. Proof of
ability to polish household paint is provided. You can even see the rag
where the 'T' cut removed a little of the surface.


And just how long had this been left before you attempted this? With car
paints, you can flat back and polish shortly after application. With
household oil paints you'd be talking months - if ever.

Indeed, You can't polish oil straight away even Alkyd resin, it has to
cure for several weeks first before is becomes hard enough.

Stephen.

--
http://coachpainting.info
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce

On Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:28:02 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

wrote:

Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my

workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household paint

some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut. Result

can be seen at link.



http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/



Your idea of polishing something appears to be going from very very very

rough to very very rough.



Try polishing it to a true mirror finish.



That some paint has come off on the cloth means you've used an abrasive.

Same would happen with sand paper.



--

*Geeks shall inherit the earth *



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Now you are demonstrating the abysmal depths of your ignorance of the subject under discussion not to mention changing your position. I never made any claims about how high a gloss could be obtained by polishing a domestic paint only that it could be polished.

I've proved I could do this. Wriggle and squirm all you like all your claims have been shot to pieces. Too late now to start qualifying your statements. When you are in a hole stop digging as at this stage you are only demonstrating your argumentativeness and your inability to admit you were wrong..

I have proved my point.

I have demonstrated this proof.

Give it up sunshine.

snip






That does not prove is can be polished, all you've done it remove a

tiny amount of paint which has improved the shine slightly.

W.T,F, What drugs are you on? Iimproved the shine slightly but this doesn't constitute polishing the surface ?

Have you any idea what you are talking about ?



To polish a traditional Linseed oil based paint you would have used

pumice powder or cuttlefish bone as a slurry compound as this was used

in various degrees of fineness to either flat or enhance a shine on an

oil finish, think horse drawn carriages.


Think of days before car polishing compounds were available. They had nothing better so this is what they used.


You CANNOT polish oil paint using modern car finishing compounds like

T-cut or Farecla etc because they are too course a substance

But I just did and showed you. Whjat more do you want.


Traditional oil paint can only be polished using Rottenstone or similar

ultra fine polishing compounds (Liberol range for example) and even then

you still polish the skin.

What else could I polish if not the skin ?

You could use modern wet-or-dry sand papers but this method is far less

effective than the old fashioned methods used on oil paints.

Wet and dry abrasives have not changed in any extent since it was invented by 3m many moons ago so whats this nonsense about 'Modern day wet or (c.v.)dry sand paper. (It is known as wet AND dry paper) and has been a silicon carbide grit based abrasive for as long as I can remember.

In the end of the day one is only using an abrasive to smooth the surface. What that abrasive is, is irrelevant.

snip


For a while I thought perhaps you knew what you were talking about but this is utter bollix. The degree of reflectance of a polished surface is down to how smooth the surface is. The smoother the surface the higher the reflectance. This is a question of degree. Pumice stone, jeweller's rouge, rotten stone all are just abrasives with varying degrees of coarseness. The finer the abrasive the smoother the surface the higher the reflectance but it is still just a matter of degree.

'T' cut polishes the surface as I conclusively proved. This is not to say finer abrasives would not give a better finish but I never claimed that. I just claimed the paint could be polished.

wrote:
[snip]

That does not prove is can be polished, all you've done it remove a
tiny amount of paint which has improved the shine slightly.

Yes that's a process known as "polishing".

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

In article ,
fred wrote:
Now you are demonstrating the abysmal depths of your ignorance of the
subject under discussion not to mention changing your position. I never
made any claims about how high a gloss could be obtained by polishing a
domestic paint only that it could be polished.

Why would you want to 'polish' a paint to a finish inferior to from the
brush?

Oh - I forgot. You're fred.

--
*All men are idiots, and I married their King.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
wrote:
[snip]

That does not prove is can be polished, all you've done it remove a
tiny amount of paint which has improved the shine slightly.

Yes that's a process known as "polishing".

Polishing is normally done to improve the appearance of the surface. Just
what happens with car paints. With household oil paints, it doesn't.

--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:34:40 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article

,

Steve Firth wrote:

wrote:

[snip]



That does not prove is can be polished, all you've done it remove a

tiny amount of paint which has improved the shine slightly.



Yes that's a process known as "polishing".



Polishing is normally done to improve the appearance of the surface. Just

what happens with car paints. With household oil paints, it doesn't.



--

*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

......and what did my experiment show ?

Why dont you just pack it in and admit you were wrong. Chopping and changing your position and vituperative responses only confirms what you are.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
wrote:
[snip]

That does not prove is can be polished, all you've done it remove a
tiny amount of paint which has improved the shine slightly.

Yes that's a process known as "polishing".

Polishing is normally done to improve the appearance of the surface.

And is a process of removing a tiny amount of paint to improve the shine
slightly. It is done with abrasives of finer and finer grade ending with
a penultimate polish with an abrasive that breaks down under pressure
into finer abrasive particles. The final polishing process is with a wax
to fill the tiny scratches and to provide a surface gloss.

Just what happens with car paints. With household oil paints, it doesn't.

Actually it does, it's possible to polish household paint to a high
gloss. One needs to take account of the longer drying time (or rather
the longer time required for polymerisation of the binder) but it's
still possible.

============
"One of the best ways to get a reasonably smooth and shiny finish is to
use an oil paint, such as Benj. Moore's High Gloss Impervo, and apply
several coats using a short nap mohair roller (6", 9" or 12"), letting
each coat dry overnight before recoating. The oil paint is pretty good
at leveling out into a fairly smooth finish.

"You can make the surface even smoother by lightly wet sanding between
coats with a 400 grit sandpaper. The wet /dry sandpaper is black, and
usually comes in 200, 400, and 600 grits. You use this paper by applying
a little water to the surface, and then lightly sand the surface, all
the while keeping the surface wet. Wet sanding allows you to quickly
sand the surface, all the while keeping scratches to a minimum. The top
coat of black, applied evenly, will dry pretty smooth.

"If you want to push it further, and make the surface even smoother,
then you can, after wet sanding with the 600 grit paper, take some
automotive rubbing compound, and using either a power buffer or some
serious elbow grease, buff the surface, removing any visible scratches.
The finish will now be smooth, though with a slightly hazy sheen. Use
some automotive polishing compound to remove the haze and bring up the
shine. The more time spent on this step, the greater the gloss."

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art45483.asp

============
"[H]ow do they get the door of No 10 so shiny?

"One simple answer is elbow grease: a flotilla of maintenance staff,
lighting up the night with their exertions. Never has gloss seemed so
glossy. So, how to get the look. The answer - again - is hard work
(there's a lesson there, too).

"A proper primer and undercoat, and even a gesso (thick, chalky pigment
to level off the grain of the wood), sanded down afterwards, then maybe
four or five coats of a good paint, allowed to dry thoroughly and sanded
after every coat.

....

"American paint expert Glenwood Sherry recommends wet-sanding with a
400-grit paper and polishing between coats, then finishing off with a
water-based varnish: 'Oil-based varnishes and polyurethanes have an
amber tint and will discolour the surface.' "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/...65/10-Downing-
Street-how-to-get-the-look.html


I'm assuming from your comments on this that you have never done a
decent job of painting a door. It takes bloody ages and as detailed
above part of that ages is taking the time to flat down between coats
and to *polish* the surface to remove brush marks and ensure a glossy
finish. Final varnish or wax coats are used to protect the surface, just
like painting a car.

If, as you seem to claim, the gloss does not harden sufficiently after
24 hours to permit wet and dry sanding and polishing then none of the
above would work. Yet it does.

The difference between car paint, cellulose in particular, and oil based
paint is the time factor. You can polish cellulose within the hour, with
the exception of application of a wax.

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

On Sunday, June 16, 2013 2:42:39 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



In article

,

Steve Firth wrote:

wrote:

[snip]



That does not prove is can be polished, all you've done it remove a

tiny amount of paint which has improved the shine slightly.



Yes that's a process known as "polishing".



Polishing is normally done to improve the appearance of the surface.



And is a process of removing a tiny amount of paint to improve the shine

slightly. It is done with abrasives of finer and finer grade ending with

a penultimate polish with an abrasive that breaks down under pressure

into finer abrasive particles. The final polishing process is with a wax

to fill the tiny scratches and to provide a surface gloss.



Just what happens with car paints. With household oil paints, it doesn't.



Actually it does, it's possible to polish household paint to a high

gloss. One needs to take account of the longer drying time (or rather

the longer time required for polymerisation of the binder) but it's

still possible.



============

"One of the best ways to get a reasonably smooth and shiny finish is to

use an oil paint, such as Benj. Moore's High Gloss Impervo, and apply

several coats using a short nap mohair roller (6", 9" or 12"), letting

each coat dry overnight before recoating. The oil paint is pretty good

at leveling out into a fairly smooth finish.



"You can make the surface even smoother by lightly wet sanding between

coats with a 400 grit sandpaper. The wet /dry sandpaper is black, and

usually comes in 200, 400, and 600 grits. You use this paper by applying

a little water to the surface, and then lightly sand the surface, all

the while keeping the surface wet. Wet sanding allows you to quickly

sand the surface, all the while keeping scratches to a minimum. The top

coat of black, applied evenly, will dry pretty smooth.



"If you want to push it further, and make the surface even smoother,

then you can, after wet sanding with the 600 grit paper, take some

automotive rubbing compound, and using either a power buffer or some

serious elbow grease, buff the surface, removing any visible scratches.

The finish will now be smooth, though with a slightly hazy sheen. Use

some automotive polishing compound to remove the haze and bring up the

shine. The more time spent on this step, the greater the gloss."



http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art45483.asp



============

"[H]ow do they get the door of No 10 so shiny?



"One simple answer is elbow grease: a flotilla of maintenance staff,

lighting up the night with their exertions. Never has gloss seemed so

glossy. So, how to get the look. The answer - again - is hard work

(there's a lesson there, too).



"A proper primer and undercoat, and even a gesso (thick, chalky pigment

to level off the grain of the wood), sanded down afterwards, then maybe

four or five coats of a good paint, allowed to dry thoroughly and sanded

after every coat.



...



"American paint expert Glenwood Sherry recommends wet-sanding with a

400-grit paper and polishing between coats, then finishing off with a

water-based varnish: 'Oil-based varnishes and polyurethanes have an

amber tint and will discolour the surface.' "



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/...65/10-Downing-

Street-how-to-get-the-look.html





I'm assuming from your comments on this that you have never done a

decent job of painting a door. It takes bloody ages and as detailed

above part of that ages is taking the time to flat down between coats

and to *polish* the surface to remove brush marks and ensure a glossy

finish. Final varnish or wax coats are used to protect the surface, just

like painting a car.



If, as you seem to claim, the gloss does not harden sufficiently after

24 hours to permit wet and dry sanding and polishing then none of the

above would work. Yet it does.



The difference between car paint, cellulose in particular, and oil based

paint is the time factor. You can polish cellulose within the hour, with

the exception of application of a wax.



--

Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

Indeed. About 30 years ago we moved into a new house with high quality 4 panel doors throughout.

I went gradually down to 800g, and a number of coats, matting between each coat. The final very high gloss finish led my mother-in-law to accuse me of having them spray painted.

Talking of front doors I always envied the residents of Amsterdam their very high gloss finish front doors. Achieved via gesso I believe.

The finish was so good over the next 15 years I never had to re-paint a door

On 16/06/2013 14:42, Steve Firth wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/...65/10-Downing-
Street-how-to-get-the-look.html

The shine of No. 10's door appeared to change radically quite a lot of
years ago. (Maybe during IRA campaign times?) I suspected that it is now
a heavy steel object. On your above link someone has posted:

"I've been inside 10 Downing Street and the front door is reinforced
steel. It also has no lock which is why they have an attendant to open
and close it."

The first part of which does indeed agree with me - right or wrong!

--
Rod

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
And is a process of removing a tiny amount of paint to improve the shine
slightly. It is done with abrasives of finer and finer grade ending with
a penultimate polish with an abrasive that breaks down under pressure
into finer abrasive particles. The final polishing process is with a wax
to fill the tiny scratches and to provide a surface gloss.

So you've never seen the paint finish straight from the gun being polished
to perfection on a car?

Just what happens with car paints. With household oil paints, it doesn't.

Actually it does, it's possible to polish household paint to a high
gloss. One needs to take account of the longer drying time (or rather
the longer time required for polymerisation of the binder) but it's
still possible.

============
"One of the best ways to get a reasonably smooth and shiny finish is to
use an oil paint, such as Benj. Moore's High Gloss Impervo, and apply
several coats using a short nap mohair roller (6", 9" or 12"), letting
each coat dry overnight before recoating. The oil paint is pretty good
at leveling out into a fairly smooth finish.

Which bit of 'ordinary household oil paint' was too difficult for you to
understand?

"You can make the surface even smoother by lightly wet sanding between
coats with a 400 grit sandpaper. The wet /dry sandpaper is black, and
usually comes in 200, 400, and 600 grits. You use this paper by applying
a little water to the surface, and then lightly sand the surface, all
the while keeping the surface wet. Wet sanding allows you to quickly
sand the surface, all the while keeping scratches to a minimum. The top
coat of black, applied evenly, will dry pretty smooth.

"If you want to push it further, and make the surface even smoother,
then you can, after wet sanding with the 600 grit paper, take some
automotive rubbing compound, and using either a power buffer or some
serious elbow grease, buff the surface, removing any visible scratches.
The finish will now be smooth, though with a slightly hazy sheen. Use
some automotive polishing compound to remove the haze and bring up the
shine. The more time spent on this step, the greater the gloss."

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art45483.asp

============
"[H]ow do they get the door of No 10 so shiny?

"One simple answer is elbow grease: a flotilla of maintenance staff,
lighting up the night with their exertions. Never has gloss seemed so
glossy. So, how to get the look. The answer - again - is hard work
(there's a lesson there, too).

"A proper primer and undercoat, and even a gesso (thick, chalky pigment
to level off the grain of the wood), sanded down afterwards, then maybe
four or five coats of a good paint, allowed to dry thoroughly and sanded
after every coat.

...

"American paint expert Glenwood Sherry recommends wet-sanding with a
400-grit paper and polishing between coats, then finishing off with a
water-based varnish: 'Oil-based varnishes and polyurethanes have an
amber tint and will discolour the surface.' "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/...65/10-Downing-
Street-how-to-get-the-look.html

Only civil servants would have the time to waste doing it that way. Or
have the money to spend on having it done.


I'm assuming from your comments on this that you have never done a
decent job of painting a door. It takes bloody ages and as detailed
above part of that ages is taking the time to flat down between coats
and to *polish* the surface to remove brush marks and ensure a glossy
finish. Final varnish or wax coats are used to protect the surface, just
like painting a car.

Nothing like painting a car. Which you obviously know nothing about.

If, as you seem to claim, the gloss does not harden sufficiently after
24 hours to permit wet and dry sanding and polishing then none of the
above would work. Yet it does.

I'd suggest you try buffing ordinary oil paint after 24 hours drying. Then
come back to us with some experience - not your usual trawling the net to
try and find something to back up what you think.

The difference between car paint, cellulose in particular, and oil based
paint is the time factor.

At least you've got that bit right.

--
*Too many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
And is a process of removing a tiny amount of paint to improve the shine
slightly. It is done with abrasives of finer and finer grade ending with
a penultimate polish with an abrasive that breaks down under pressure
into finer abrasive particles. The final polishing process is with a wax
to fill the tiny scratches and to provide a surface gloss.

So you've never seen the paint finish straight from the gun being polished
to perfection on a car?

Seen it and done it. But at this point we are not talking about cars.

Just what happens with car paints. With household oil paints, it doesn't.

Actually it does, it's possible to polish household paint to a high
gloss. One needs to take account of the longer drying time (or rather
the longer time required for polymerisation of the binder) but it's
still possible.

============
"One of the best ways to get a reasonably smooth and shiny finish is to
use an oil paint, such as Benj. Moore's High Gloss Impervo, and apply
several coats using a short nap mohair roller (6", 9" or 12"), letting
each coat dry overnight before recoating. The oil paint is pretty good
at leveling out into a fairly smooth finish.

Which bit of 'ordinary household oil paint' was too difficult for you to
understand?

None of it, the reference above is to household oil based paint. As you
would see if you hadn't blinded yourself. Note the words "oil paint"
repeated in the quoted text.

[snip]

Only civil servants would have the time to waste doing it that way. Or
have the money to spend on having it done.

Oh look, you're off trying to change the subject, again. I've already said
it takes time and effort, but you were, until your latest wriggle, claiming
that it wasn't possible.

I'm assuming from your comments on this that you have never done a
decent job of painting a door. It takes bloody ages and as detailed
above part of that ages is taking the time to flat down between coats
and to *polish* the surface to remove brush marks and ensure a glossy
finish. Final varnish or wax coats are used to protect the surface, just
like painting a car.

Nothing like painting a car. Which you obviously know nothing about.

yawn I seem to know more about it than you chum. I suspect you are still
trapped in the past. Clear top coats have been standard on cars since the
end of the dark ages.

[snip]

I'd suggest you try buffing ordinary oil paint after 24 hours drying.

Been there, done that, produced a door that looked like the one at No 10.
Thanks for asking. Not just done it, but done it in several houses over
many years using Johnstones and Brewers oil based paints.

Then come back to us with some experience - not your usual trawling the net to
try and find something to back up what you think.

You're the one who clearly has never done the job, as is clear from your
drivel here.

It's amusing how you twist and turn. If I make a statement based on my
experience you dismiss it out of hand. If I support a statement with
evidence you lash out about "trawling the net".

The difference between car paint, cellulose in particular, and oil based
paint is the time factor.

At least you've got that bit right.

I got all of it right and I produced evidence to support that it's not just
my opinion. You OTOH just flapped your lips and did your usual insults.

You can have that last word you want now.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

Indeed. About 30 years ago we moved into a new house with high quality 4
panel doors throughout.

I went gradually down to 800g, and a number of coats, matting between each
coat. The final very high gloss finish led my mother-in-law to accuse me
of having them spray painted.


Which would probably have been quicker, cheaper and have achieved exactly
the same level of 'finish' ! :-)

And why "accuse" ... ?

Arfa

wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:15:13 PM UTC+1, wrote:
In message

fred wrote:



On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:13:11 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,



fred wrote:



I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very



fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.







So you are saying you can flat any household paint, then polish - as is



the norm with car paints?







Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics.



The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.







And you said you were experienced with spray paints?







--



*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up







Dave Plowman London SW



To e-mail, change noise into sound.



Yes. And I stand by my statement all paints are synthetic. I dont know

any volume manufacturer who is currently using 'natural' base materials



Any oil based paint is described as a synthetic, for example Linseed,

Alkyd, Polyurethane and basically any paint that can be diluted in

Turpentine, whereas Cellulose, Acrylic, and two component are not.



Stephen.





--

Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household paint some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut. Result can be seen at link.

http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/

Now all you 'experts' can squirm and argue all you like. Proof of ability to polish household paint is provided. You can even see the rag where the 'T' cut removed a little of the surface.

Please do not discuss quality of painting etc. This is just an old box I was experimenting with. MDF primed and one coat of household paint applied.

And equally I don't want to read any rubbish about 'T' cut removing a little of the surface and not really polishing etc.

Not interested in semantics discussing definitions of 'polished'

Not interested in reasons only results. It polished the surface. The higher level of gloss can be seen. It might not be a mirror finish but I really couldn't be arsed going to a lot of trouble just to prove the point.

All this discussion about the make up of different paints making some unsuitable to be polished is irrelevant twaddle.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating.

And no I haven't photo-shopped it or made any corrections to it. Straight from the iPhone.

It does not seem flat it just seems shinier uneven surface.

On Monday, June 17, 2013 2:03:28 AM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:


Indeed. About 30 years ago we moved into a new house with high quality 4

panel doors throughout.



I went gradually down to 800g, and a number of coats, matting between each

coat. The final very high gloss finish led my mother-in-law to accuse me

of having them spray painted.





Which would probably have been quicker, cheaper and have achieved exactly

the same level of 'finish' ! :-)



And why "accuse" ... ?



Arfa

What, like remove all the doors and take them to a workshop where I still would have had to sand between spray coats ?

Why 'acsuse' Well she was my mother-in-law and it was probably meant as a back handed compliment

On Monday, June 17, 2013 4:11:05 AM UTC+1, F Murtz wrote:
wrote:

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:15:13 PM UTC+1, wrote:

In message



fred wrote:







On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:13:11 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



In article ,







fred wrote:







I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very







fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.















So you are saying you can flat any household paint, then polish - as is







the norm with car paints?















Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics.







The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.















And you said you were experienced with spray paints?















--







*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up















Dave Plowman London SW







To e-mail, change noise into sound.







Yes. And I stand by my statement all paints are synthetic. I dont know



any volume manufacturer who is currently using 'natural' base materials







Any oil based paint is described as a synthetic, for example Linseed,



Alkyd, Polyurethane and basically any paint that can be diluted in



Turpentine, whereas Cellulose, Acrylic, and two component are not.







Stephen.











--



Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household paint some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut. Result can be seen at link.



http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/



Now all you 'experts' can squirm and argue all you like. Proof of ability to polish household paint is provided. You can even see the rag where the 'T' cut removed a little of the surface.



Please do not discuss quality of painting etc. This is just an old box I was experimenting with. MDF primed and one coat of household paint applied.



And equally I don't want to read any rubbish about 'T' cut removing a little of the surface and not really polishing etc.



Not interested in semantics discussing definitions of 'polished'



Not interested in reasons only results. It polished the surface. The higher level of gloss can be seen. It might not be a mirror finish but I really couldn't be arsed going to a lot of trouble just to prove the point.



All this discussion about the make up of different paints making some unsuitable to be polished is irrelevant twaddle.



Proof of the pudding is in the eating.



And no I haven't photo-shopped it or made any corrections to it. Straight from the iPhone.



It does not seem flat it just seems shinier uneven surface.

What you say is true but the object of the exercise was to prove that oil based paint could have its sheen improved by the application of 'T' cut.

fred wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2013 4:11:05 AM UTC+1, F Murtz wrote:
wrote:

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:15:13 PM UTC+1, wrote:

In message



fred wrote:







On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:13:11 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



In article ,







fred wrote:







I find this to be untrue. Car polishing compounds are predominantly very







fine abrasives. So the composition of the paint is not really relevant.















So you are saying you can flat any household paint, then polish - as is







the norm with car paints?















Besides what is this talk about synthetics ? All paints are synthetics.







The difference lies in the medium used to hold the pigments.















And you said you were experienced with spray paints?















--







*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up















Dave Plowman London SW







To e-mail, change noise into sound.







Yes. And I stand by my statement all paints are synthetic. I dont know



any volume manufacturer who is currently using 'natural' base materials







Any oil based paint is described as a synthetic, for example Linseed,



Alkyd, Polyurethane and basically any paint that can be diluted in



Turpentine, whereas Cellulose, Acrylic, and two component are not.







Stephen.











--



Being utterly fed up with all the drivel being talked here I went to my workshop. Pulled out an old box I had brush painted with household paint some time ago. Masked off a strip. Polished one side with 'T'cut. Result can be seen at link.



http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/tpaul2/library/



Now all you 'experts' can squirm and argue all you like. Proof of ability to polish household paint is provided. You can even see the rag where the 'T' cut removed a little of the surface.



Please do not discuss quality of painting etc. This is just an old box I was experimenting with. MDF primed and one coat of household paint applied.



And equally I don't want to read any rubbish about 'T' cut removing a little of the surface and not really polishing etc.



Not interested in semantics discussing definitions of 'polished'



Not interested in reasons only results. It polished the surface. The higher level of gloss can be seen. It might not be a mirror finish but I really couldn't be arsed going to a lot of trouble just to prove the point.



All this discussion about the make up of different paints making some unsuitable to be polished is irrelevant twaddle.



Proof of the pudding is in the eating.



And no I haven't photo-shopped it or made any corrections to it. Straight from the iPhone.



It does not seem flat it just seems shinier uneven surface.

What you say is true but the object of the exercise was to prove that oil based paint could have its sheen improved by the application of 'T' cut.




It is possible but through the discussion I was thinking that you meant
that house oil paint with sanding and polishing you could equal sprayed
paint IE flat, shiny no grooves no brush marks etc.
I dare say,If I had a 10 year old surface it may be possible but for all
intents and purposes it is not practical and spraying is almost always a
better finish than brushed.

"fred" wrote in message
...
On Monday, June 17, 2013 2:03:28 AM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:


Indeed. About 30 years ago we moved into a new house with high quality
4

panel doors throughout.



I went gradually down to 800g, and a number of coats, matting between
each

coat. The final very high gloss finish led my mother-in-law to accuse
me

of having them spray painted.





Which would probably have been quicker, cheaper and have achieved exactly

the same level of 'finish' ! :-)



And why "accuse" ... ?



Arfa

What, like remove all the doors and take them to a workshop where I still
would have had to sand between spray coats ?

Why 'acsuse' Well she was my mother-in-law and it was probably meant as a
back handed compliment


Dear oh lord, but you've got a convoluted mind, Fred ...

Arfa

On Monday, June 17, 2013 8:50:43 AM UTC+1, F Murtz wrote:
fred wrote:
snip


What you say is true but the object of the exercise was to prove that oil based paint could have its sheen improved by the application of 'T' cut.









It is possible but through the discussion I was thinking that you meant

that house oil paint with sanding and polishing you could equal sprayed

paint IE flat, shiny no grooves no brush marks etc.

I dare say,If I had a 10 year old surface it may be possible but for all

intents and purposes it is not practical and spraying is almost always a

better finish than brushed.



Oh God don't start this all over again.

Read the thread.

I use ordinary domestic oil paint

Who mentioned waiting 10 years/ You just have to wait till it dries. Internally 24 hours should suffice. If you try sanding it too soon the abrasive paper will clog up very quickly.

There is no magic in achieving a high gloss with oil paint. Depending on what you wish its not even necessary to use polishing compound only if you want a very high gloss.

Prime/undercoat Flat 120g

Second undercoat Flat 180g

1st top coat Flat 220g

Keep going though I usually find going to 800g sufficient. Others may have a different approach but this works for me.

By Flat I mean get the surface completely matt. Illuminate with a cross light if needs be. After the initial few coats any flatting will be very light

Spraying is not always possible, internal doors etc., and spraying still requires flatting between coats. Yes you can apply numerous heavy coats with a spray gun but you will end up with a jammy/treacly type finish. Very un-attractive to the discerning eye. And, to go back to my original point, spraying requires more preparation and clean up afterwards unless you are using cans which are costly and the range of colours is very limited.

And I disagree that spraying always gives a better finish than a brush.

I am utterly astounded at the lack of knowledge of this subject. It must be a generational thing

On 17/06/2013 11:49, fred wrote:


Spraying is not always possible, internal doors etc., and spraying
still requires flatting between coats. Yes you can apply numerous
heavy coats with a spray gun but you will end up with a jammy/treacly
type finish. Very un-attractive to the discerning eye. And, to go
back to my original point, spraying requires more preparation and
clean up afterwards unless you are using cans which are costly and
the range of colours is very limited.

And I disagree that spraying always gives a better finish than a
brush.

I am utterly astounded at the lack of knowledge of this subject. It
must be a generational thing

Internal doors are easy enough to spray - take them outside or to the
garage. It is things like skirting, door frames, windows that are
difficult to impossible.

You can get cans of spray paint in any colour that paint is made in.

Not everyone knows about everything. There are tiny little areas in
which I feel I probably know more than most - and huge areas where I
feel utterly ignorant.

I have never had the combination of time, access, etc., and, frankly,
need or desire to make every gloss surface in the house mirror-like.
Sure, if I were trying to put a good paint surface on an item of
furniture. But not for the rest of the house.

--
Rod

In article ,
fred wrote:
Oh God don't start this all over again.

Read the thread.

I use ordinary domestic oil paint

Why did you use 'ordinary domestic oil paint' to achieve your perfect
finish when everyone knows there are better ways to do it? Like by using
decent paint for a start?

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
polygonum wrote:
And I disagree that spraying always gives a better finish than a brush.

I am utterly astounded at the lack of knowledge of this subject. It
must be a generational thing

Internal doors are easy enough to spray - take them outside or to the
garage. It is things like skirting, door frames, windows that are
difficult to impossible.

Quite. And by using the correct paint you'd have your perfect finish on
that door in a far shorter timescale than waiting for ordinary paint to
harden sufficiently, so you can rub it down for those multiple coats.

But of course it is fred. Removing a door might well be beyond him.

--
*Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, June 17, 2013 12:00:12 PM UTC+1, polygonum wrote:
On 17/06/2013 11:49, fred wrote:





Spraying is not always possible, internal doors etc., and spraying

still requires flatting between coats. Yes you can apply numerous

heavy coats with a spray gun but you will end up with a jammy/treacly

type finish. Very un-attractive to the discerning eye. And, to go

back to my original point, spraying requires more preparation and

clean up afterwards unless you are using cans which are costly and

the range of colours is very limited.



And I disagree that spraying always gives a better finish than a

brush.



I am utterly astounded at the lack of knowledge of this subject. It

must be a generational thing



Internal doors are easy enough to spray - take them outside or to the

garage. It is things like skirting, door frames, windows that are

difficult to impossible.



You can get cans of spray paint in any colour that paint is made in.



Not everyone knows about everything. There are tiny little areas in

which I feel I probably know more than most - and huge areas where I

feel utterly ignorant.



I have never had the combination of time, access, etc., and, frankly,

need or desire to make every gloss surface in the house mirror-like.

Sure, if I were trying to put a good paint surface on an item of

furniture. But not for the rest of the house.



--

Rod

Well I wasn't intending to slag anyone but the subject under discussion is one so basic to me hence my astonishment. The idea that oil based paint applied by brush wouldn't flow out properly or that it couldn't be brought to a high gloss to me was so ludicrous I though someone was taking the mick. And unlike other contributors to this thread I do not claim to know everything.

When I did this job I had access to neither workspace or spraying equipment.. However now when I have access to both I would still be loath to remove doors to spray them. A perfectly acceptable, to me, finish, can be achieved by brush as has been done for years and is still being done in the vast majority of cases.

I don't think you can get spray cans in Farrow and Ball colours. Apart from the price the paint in these cans is thinned right down to allow it be sprayed. The consequence is that more coats are required to achieve a good finish

Even when spraying, to achieve a good depth and gloss it is necessary to apply a number of coats and flat between them.

Unless you are advocating spraying with a fast drying enamel, where your range of colours will tend to be mostly industrial or agricultural tones, you are still spraying ordinary oil based paint with the same drying times. Thinking about this, with the average spray equipment available to the DIY man, this paint will also have to be thinned out more than would be necessary with a brush application.

Yes you could place the door horizontally on trestles and lash on the paint, I've seen it done, but the final finish is going to be atrocious. A good finish requires the requisite number of coats. The more coats with intervening flatting the deeper the gloss.

Neither would I have the time or desire to have every paint finish in the house a high gloss one, and I never suggested it, but in the case in hand we had just moved into a brand new house, I was a lot younger, and not having television I had lots of time for the job. I wanted to do a job that would last and was curious as to how good a finish I could achieve,and it was only the doors I did, not all the paintwork.

Spray painting is 99.9% of the time an industrial process where the main advantages are speed and the ability to use extremely fast drying finishes. As stated previously, I find it generally involves too much faffing about to use it for small jobs.

On Monday, June 17, 2013 1:41:54 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

polygonum wrote:

And I disagree that spraying always gives a better finish than a brush.



I am utterly astounded at the lack of knowledge of this subject. It

must be a generational thing



Internal doors are easy enough to spray - take them outside or to the

garage. It is things like skirting, door frames, windows that are

difficult to impossible.



Quite. And by using the correct paint you'd have your perfect finish on

that door in a far shorter timescale than waiting for ordinary paint to

harden sufficiently, so you can rub it down for those multiple coats.



But of course it is fred. Removing a door might well be beyond him.



--

*Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? *



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Funny I though you would have learned your lesson by now. You, and your daft ideas have been so thoroughly trounced in this thread I'm surprised you have the
nerve to raise your head again.

But then again its Plowman, what else could we expect.

The cretin who never misses the opportunity to open his mouth and put his foot in it.

Who delights in demonstrating his e.s.n. failings.

The man who doesn't know that when in a hole stop digging.

Who demonstrably knows nothing about the subject in hand.

I think your other alias is Harry.

Ah well , more to be pitied than laughed at.

On 17/06/2013 14:23, fred wrote:


Well I wasn't intending to slag anyone but the subject under
discussion is one so basic to me hence my astonishment. The idea that
oil based paint applied by brush wouldn't flow out properly or that
it couldn't be brought to a high gloss to me was so ludicrous I
though someone was taking the mick. And unlike other contributors to
this thread I do not claim to know everything.

When I did this job I had access to neither workspace or spraying
equipment.. However now when I have access to both I would still be
loath to remove doors to spray them. A perfectly acceptable, to me,
finish, can be achieved by brush as has been done for years and is
still being done in the vast majority of cases.

I don't think you can get spray cans in Farrow and Ball colours.
Apart from the price the paint in these cans is thinned right down to
allow it be sprayed. The consequence is that more coats are required
to achieve a good finish

Even when spraying, to achieve a good depth and gloss it is necessary
to apply a number of coats and flat between them.

Unless you are advocating spraying with a fast drying enamel, where
your range of colours will tend to be mostly industrial or
agricultural tones, you are still spraying ordinary oil based paint
with the same drying times. Thinking about this, with the average
spray equipment available to the DIY man, this paint will also have
to be thinned out more than would be necessary with a brush
application.

Yes you could place the door horizontally on trestles and lash on the
paint, I've seen it done, but the final finish is going to be
atrocious. A good finish requires the requisite number of coats. The
more coats with intervening flatting the deeper the gloss.

Neither would I have the time or desire to have every paint finish in
the house a high gloss one, and I never suggested it, but in the case
in hand we had just moved into a brand new house, I was a lot
younger, and not having television I had lots of time for the job. I
wanted to do a job that would last and was curious as to how good a
finish I could achieve,and it was only the doors I did, not all the
paintwork.

Spray painting is 99.9% of the time an industrial process where the
main advantages are speed and the ability to use extremely fast
drying finishes. As stated previously, I find it generally involves
too much faffing about to use it for small jobs.

You can get Farrow & Ball in aerosols:

https://www.castrads.com/colours/far...d-ball-dimity/

And F&B supply advice about non-aerosol spraying of their paints:

http://www.farrow-ball.com/pws/clien...A_Spraying.pdf

As well, of course, as oodles of other companies making up matching
colours of varying proximity to F&B in looks!

I certainly wasn't thinking about putting a door onto trestles - rather
suitably propped up and raised from the ground at the bottom. Very
similarly to how a vehicle painter would tackle a Transit door.

I have most certainly found some paints simply don't want to flow out
nicely by brush. Maybe judicious thinning would help? Maybe it depends
on temperature, humidity, brush quality, and painter's skill? (Mine
certainly is not fo the highest order.)

Possibly the best gloss finish I remember getting was by using undercoat
with heavy pigment levels. Then a lacquer layer with some dye. Finally
lacquer without dye. Nothing more than denibbing between coats. Far, far
from perfect but very effective. And actually not much effort.

--
Rod

Osnip
--

Rod

My ignorance about the Farrow and Ball items though interestingly the spraying advice appears to relate to water based products.

The only problem I ever encountered with flow rates was with a water based coloured varnish about 10 years ago. Completely ruined a fine hard wood gate I wanted to keep a varnish finish on. The only satisfactory answer to the zebra effect I got was to put a colour over it. Yes I find a very little addition of thinners helps.
Still don't like water based finishes. The only use I have for it is as a sanding sealer. The easy clean up always seduces me.

In article ,
fred wrote:
Funny I though you would have learned your lesson by now. You, and your
daft ideas have been so thoroughly trounced in this thread I'm
surprised you have the nerve to raise your head again.

But then again its Plowman, what else could we expect.

The cretin who never misses the opportunity to open his mouth and put
his foot in it.

Who delights in demonstrating his e.s.n. failings.

The man who doesn't know that when in a hole stop digging.

Who demonstrably knows nothing about the subject in hand.

I think your other alias is Harry.

Ah well , more to be pitied than laughed at.


Explains why your MIL doesn't trust you.

--
*Ever stop to think and forget to start again?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:11:52 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

fred wrote:

Funny I though you would have learned your lesson by now. You, and your

daft ideas have been so thoroughly trounced in this thread I'm

surprised you have the nerve to raise your head again.



But then again its Plowman, what else could we expect.



The cretin who never misses the opportunity to open his mouth and put

his foot in it.



Who delights in demonstrating his e.s.n. failings.



The man who doesn't know that when in a hole stop digging.



Who demonstrably knows nothing about the subject in hand.



I think your other alias is Harry.



Ah well , more to be pitied than laughed at.





Explains why your MIL doesn't trust you.



--

*Ever stop to think and forget to start again?



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

My dear boy, that response explains it all about the ploughman.

Go home to mummy now. Time for your afternoon nap

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 17:50:43 +1000, F Murtz
wrote:

It is possible

Is it possible that you pair of useless *******s could snip the ****?

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 11:36:33 AM UTC+1, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 17:50:43 +1000, F Murtz

wrote:



It is possible



Is it possible that you pair of useless *******s could snip the ****?

Well I did snip the last post. I always try to leave enough to make sense of the reply. Sometimes it slips my mind. Apologies.

Incidentally, not wishing to start a reader war, but I don't have problems with this when using Google Groups. Now Yahoo groups is another kettle of fish. American news groups can have pages and pages of crap before getting to the meat. They never dream of snipping, but then they mostly top post (Thank M.S. for that)

On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:37:20 -0700 (PDT), fred
wrote:

Well I did snip the last post. I always try to leave enough to make sense of the reply. Sometimes it slips my mind. Apologies.

Incidentally, not wishing to start a reader war, but I don't have problems with this when using Google Groups.

It's the double and triple-spacing that GG imparts that's a large part
of the problem. It turns what would be a one-screen-scroll into a
multi-page odyssey (or oddy say).