tony sayer wrote:
In article -
september.org, Steve Firth scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:

And of course teachers get those nice long holidays, getting paid a full
wage for a stressful 30 week year.


Do you know any as friends at all?..

Yes and as relatives.

Then you should know better...

I do know better. I know what they get up to, how long they spend at work
how much leisure time they have. They use holidays to the max and spend
little or no time working during those periods. They get 52 weeks pay for
working 30 weeks. Even when at work they get long rest periods between
lessons.


I doubt you do..

How nice for you.

And no I don't believe they work during holidays. Teachers I know spend
every holiday... On holiday. Oh and of course INSETT days are treated as
holidays as well.


They need the holidays ..


Well I do know a few. One of them is a head of year at a boarding
school. He's off to work at 7:30 and comes back most days at 21:00 Mon
to Sat, tho admittedly some exeat Saturdays that might be around 3 PM.
Sunday is spent lesson preparation and marking.

At a private school. Where his salary will be higher than at a state school
and where continuing employment is linked to both performance and pastoral
care. I have no problem with these teachers they do a good job and bad
teachers don't seem to last long in the job.

Another is a headmaster at a state secondary school. Similar if not
worse life rather existence style. He does seem to be occupied in the
holidays with school related matters...

Head teacher, salary probably over 90k actual responsibility less than in
private industry for that level of pay. Holiday entitlement "generous",
pension feather bedded.

Other half does much the same. I wonder how many jobs your expected to
work 9 to half five

Few teachers work to 17:30. They leave not long after the pupils.

then spend most evenings marking, lesson prep

Or as a relative of mine says? Lesson prep? I had to do that once after
getting a PGCE. If I have to do it again in the next five years it will be
a rare day.

and
doing all the other paperwork dreamt up by the powers that be..

Ah yes the ephemeral "paperwork" much complained about but not evidenced.

I tend to agree with a friend - if you want education for your children
take them out of school. Don't leave them in the hands of useless bored and
hence boring ****s.

So what establishment did you spend you time at then?..

What has that to do with anything?

Well what educational establishment, one I presume that wasn't run by
"boring ****s" I expect?..

You expect wrong. Three teachers AFAIR who
Knew their subject and could communicate it. I skipped school for three
years attending the lessons taught by decent teachers. I spent those years
in the public library educating myself. I got the best examination results
at that school and teachers who I had barely seen claimed the credit at the
certificate ceremony. The three who actually taught me something were
extremely modest.

Who's educating your children?. You DIY it then?..

No one is educating my children.

BTW are you outing yourself as an overpaid leadswinger?


Nope, self employed/company director for the last 28 years.

Never once been on the dole or claimed unemployment benefits.

Or most any other benefit either..

And you?...

Exactly the same as you.

But I note that you have outed yourself as protecting your other half so I
don't expect you to be objective.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
You expect wrong. Three teachers AFAIR who Knew their subject and could
communicate it. I skipped school for three years attending the lessons
taught by decent teachers. I spent those years in the public library
educating myself. I got the best examination results at that school and
teachers who I had barely seen claimed the credit at the certificate
ceremony. The three who actually taught me something were extremely
modest.

Ah. That would explain your lack of social skills. Isolating yourself from
your peers at that age is not the way to achieve them.

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
You expect wrong. Three teachers AFAIR who Knew their subject and could
communicate it. I skipped school for three years attending the lessons
taught by decent teachers. I spent those years in the public library
educating myself. I got the best examination results at that school and
teachers who I had barely seen claimed the credit at the certificate
ceremony. The three who actually taught me something were extremely
modest.

Ah. That would explain your lack of social skills. Isolating yourself from
your peers at that age is not the way to achieve them.

I didn't isolate myself from my peers. I isolated myself from school. Hint:
that's not the same thing.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
I tend to agree with a friend - if you want education for your
children take them out of school. Don't leave them in the hands of
useless bored and hence boring ****s.

Good to know your friends are equally as stupid as you.

Aww bless, the chap in question is regarded as astonishingly clever and
is the leader in his profession nationally. Good to see that you feel
qualified to declare someone with a first class honours degree as
"stupid".

Plenty of teachers have first class honours degrees too - including my
brother. So someone who describes him as 'useless bored and hence boring
****s' - especially without knowing him - can rightly be described as
stupid, regardless of any paper qualifications. And you for agreeing with
him.

You tend to have these fits every time one of your shibboleths is
challenged. Have you considered just relaxing a little instead of getting
angry?

Many of your posts make me sad - not angry. That one with apparent
intelligence has so little knowledge of his fellow men that he feels the
need to classify them in such a way.

Show me a good teacher and I'll show you fifty useless drains on a society
in the same profession.

BTW in my experience teachers with firsts are terrible teachers.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
Many of your posts make me sad - not angry. That one with apparent
intelligence has so little knowledge of his fellow men that he feels
the need to classify them in such a way.

Show me a good teacher and I'll show you fifty useless drains on a
society in the same profession.

You know fifty teachers? I can think of some teachers who probably don't
know another 49 - or at least not well enough to make a valid judgment
about them. Not that I'd expect such minor realities having an effect on
your obvious prejudices.

BTW in my experience teachers with firsts are terrible teachers.

Your 'experience' doesn't make it so for everyone.

--
*No radio - Already stolen.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
Many of your posts make me sad - not angry. That one with apparent
intelligence has so little knowledge of his fellow men that he feels
the need to classify them in such a way.

Show me a good teacher and I'll show you fifty useless drains on a
society in the same profession.

You know fifty teachers?

I don't think that he was suggesting that he knew 50 to name to you.

(given his posting on the subject) ISTM quite likely he thinks that he can
nominate them randomly.

tim

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:22:37 PM UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/11/2012 15:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,

Roland Perry wrote:

In message m, at

14:20:54 on Tue, 13 Nov 2012, "dennis@home"

remarked:

My brother taught all his life, and was poorly paid for a job which

required those sort of qualifications. The compensation for that poor

pay was a half decent pension.



He wasn't poorly paid, some of his pay was his pension.



And teachers aren't poorly paid anyway. From education.gov.uk:



"At £23,010, the average starting salary in teaching is high

compared to the average graduate starting salary. Experienced

teachers can earn up to £64,000 in London and £56,000 outside

London, while head teachers can reach a salary of between

£42,379 and £112,000."



That is now. He was poorly paid throughout most of his working life. And

teachers' pensions will be very different in the future anyway.



BTW, just how many teachers do you think become head teachers?





I would say too many.

Why do they have to be teachers to manage a school in the first place?

You don't have to, but working in a university where you have managers that don;t understand education is frustrating, as they seemt o spend the money on fancy tables & chairs when what I really need is 20 PP3 batteries for nwxt week, but they're maxed out on the credit card :-o.

In article ,
tim..... wrote:
Show me a good teacher and I'll show you fifty useless drains on a
society in the same profession.

You know fifty teachers?

I don't think that he was suggesting that he knew 50 to name to you.

Quite. Which makes the statement quite simply a blatant lie.

(given his posting on the subject) ISTM quite likely he thinks that he
can nominate them randomly.

The one thing near everyone has is direct experience of teachers at one
time in their lives. I dunno what sort of school Firth went to to make him
say all are useless. Probably says more about him.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
In article -
september.org, Steve Firth scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:

And of course teachers get those nice long holidays, getting paid a full
wage for a stressful 30 week year.


Do you know any as friends at all?..

Yes and as relatives.

Then you should know better...

I do know better. I know what they get up to, how long they spend at work
how much leisure time they have. They use holidays to the max and spend
little or no time working during those periods. They get 52 weeks pay for
working 30 weeks. Even when at work they get long rest periods between
lessons.


obviously you are not married to a teacher

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:

[Snip]

BTW in my experience teachers with firsts are terrible teachers.

It depends if the pupils want to learn or not.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In message , at 18:02:54 on
Wed, 14 Nov 2012, charles remarked:
I do know better. I know what they get up to, how long they spend at work
how much leisure time they have. They use holidays to the max and spend
little or no time working during those periods. They get 52 weeks pay for
working 30 weeks. Even when at work they get long rest periods between
lessons.

obviously you are not married to a teacher

Both my parents were teachers, and neither brought any work home
(although my dad tended not to get back until dinner time).

It does depend to some extent on what ages (of student) and what
subjects.
--
Roland Perry

In article -
september.org, Steve Firth scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:
In article -
september.org, Steve Firth scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:

And of course teachers get those nice long holidays, getting paid a full
wage for a stressful 30 week year.


Do you know any as friends at all?..

Yes and as relatives.

Then you should know better...

I do know better. I know what they get up to, how long they spend at work
how much leisure time they have. They use holidays to the max and spend
little or no time working during those periods. They get 52 weeks pay for
working 30 weeks. Even when at work they get long rest periods between
lessons.

Well you don't know the ones I know...


I doubt you do..

How nice for you.

And no I don't believe they work during holidays. Teachers I know spend
every holiday... On holiday. Oh and of course INSETT days are treated as
holidays as well.


They need the holidays ..


Well I do know a few. One of them is a head of year at a boarding
school. He's off to work at 7:30 and comes back most days at 21:00 Mon
to Sat, tho admittedly some exeat Saturdays that might be around 3 PM.
Sunday is spent lesson preparation and marking.

At a private school.

Nope, a state boarding school, they do exist.

Not only him, there are others there to. All much the same as him many
more hours worked than what they are strictly employed to do..


Where his salary will be higher than at a state school
and where continuing employment is linked to both performance and pastoral
care. I have no problem with these teachers they do a good job and bad
teachers don't seem to last long in the job.

Another is a headmaster at a state secondary school. Similar if not
worse life rather existence style. He does seem to be occupied in the
holidays with school related matters...

Head teacher, salary probably over 90k actual responsibility less than in
private industry for that level of pay. Holiday entitlement "generous",
pension feather bedded.

In your opinion. So if you do have children are you OK with any old tom
or harry teaching them then?...


Other half does much the same. I wonder how many jobs your expected to
work 9 to half five

Few teachers work to 17:30. They leave not long after the pupils.

Nope, not there a lot of them are there supervising after school
activities etc..


then spend most evenings marking, lesson prep

Or as a relative of mine says? Lesson prep? I had to do that once after
getting a PGCE. If I have to do it again in the next five years it will be
a rare day.

Your obviously not in teaching then..


and
doing all the other paperwork dreamt up by the powers that be..

Ah yes the ephemeral "paperwork" much complained about but not evidenced.

As above, your not in that profession ..

I tend to agree with a friend - if you want education for your children
take them out of school. Don't leave them in the hands of useless bored
and
hence boring ****s.

So what establishment did you spend you time at then?..

What has that to do with anything?

Well what educational establishment, one I presume that wasn't run by
"boring ****s" I expect?..

You expect wrong. Three teachers AFAIR who
Knew their subject and could communicate it. I skipped school for three
years attending the lessons taught by decent teachers. I spent those years
in the public library educating myself. I got the best examination results
at that school and teachers who I had barely seen claimed the credit at the
certificate ceremony. The three who actually taught me something were
extremely modest.

So no one queried your extended absences then?..


Who's educating your children?. You DIY it then?..

No one is educating my children.

So either you don't have any or they a DIY option then?..

BTW are you outing yourself as an overpaid leadswinger?


Nope, self employed/company director for the last 28 years.

Never once been on the dole or claimed unemployment benefits.

Or most any other benefit either..

And you?...

Exactly the same as you.

But I note that you have outed yourself as protecting your other half so I
don't expect you to be objective.


Theres no one "outing" anyone or anything. Yes my other half is rather
like me, has worked bloody hard from humble beginnings.

And most all of that in the private sector.

But I suppose your version of "objective" and mine differ..

Thanks....
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Roland Perry
scribeth thus
In message , at 18:02:54 on
Wed, 14 Nov 2012, charles remarked:
I do know better. I know what they get up to, how long they spend at work
how much leisure time they have. They use holidays to the max and spend
little or no time working during those periods. They get 52 weeks pay for
working 30 weeks. Even when at work they get long rest periods between
lessons.

obviously you are not married to a teacher

Both my parents were teachers, and neither brought any work home
(although my dad tended not to get back until dinner time).

Times have changed Roland. It might have been like then but not now...

It does depend to some extent on what ages (of student) and what
subjects.

--
Tony Sayer

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
Many of your posts make me sad - not angry. That one with apparent
intelligence has so little knowledge of his fellow men that he feels
the need to classify them in such a way.

Show me a good teacher and I'll show you fifty useless drains on a
society in the same profession.

You know fifty teachers?

You have fifty brain cells? Your comment is making that look unlikely.

I can think of some teachers who probably don't
know another 49

Name them.

- or at least not well enough to make a valid judgment
about them. Not that I'd expect such minor realities having an effect on
your obvious prejudices.

sigh In whatever school the good teacher comes from the law of averages
says that the rest will be crap.

BTW in my experience teachers with firsts are terrible teachers.

Your 'experience' doesn't make it so for everyone.

Neither does the fact that a teacher is a relative make them or any other
teacher good at their job.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

In message , at 19:34:26 on Wed, 14 Nov
2012, tony sayer remarked:

Times have changed Roland. It might have been like then but not now...

Aren't we discussing a teacher who retired some time ago?
--
Roland Perry

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
- or at least not well enough to make a valid judgment about them. Not
that I'd expect such minor realities having an effect on your obvious
prejudices.

sigh In whatever school the good teacher comes from the law of averages
says that the rest will be crap.

You've moved on to making up new 'laws' now?

--
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 14/11/2012 15:04, Steve Firth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
I tend to agree with a friend - if you want education for your
children take them out of school. Don't leave them in the hands of
useless bored and hence boring ****s.

Good to know your friends are equally as stupid as you.

Aww bless, the chap in question is regarded as astonishingly clever and
is the leader in his profession nationally. Good to see that you feel
qualified to declare someone with a first class honours degree as
"stupid".

Plenty of teachers have first class honours degrees too - including my
brother. So someone who describes him as 'useless bored and hence boring
****s' - especially without knowing him - can rightly be described as
stupid, regardless of any paper qualifications. And you for agreeing with
him.

You tend to have these fits every time one of your shibboleths is
challenged. Have you considered just relaxing a little instead of getting
angry?

Many of your posts make me sad - not angry. That one with apparent
intelligence has so little knowledge of his fellow men that he feels the
need to classify them in such a way.

Show me a good teacher and I'll show you fifty useless drains on a society
in the same profession.


It has been said that the brightest in our community tend to have their
views, however apparently bigotted, founded on decent evidence. Is your
view the result of anything rational, or just some spiteful and
troll-like spat?

BTW in my experience teachers with firsts are terrible teachers.


What exactly is your experience here? Is it anecdote and tabloid by any
chance?

You sound much like someone I know - and the only reason he gets to say
what he says is by raising his voice and physical threat.

Rob

On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 23:18:03 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:


You are clearly very ignorant. I expect you think a long driveay =the
arse end of nowhere.
None would have delivered to my last house.

Oh dear how sad never mind.


--

On Friday, November 9, 2012 8:04:15 PM UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
? wrote:
They should put all the tax on fuel. That would be much fairer.

I think you misunderstand the purposes of taxes and duties. They exist
to raise revenue, not to be fair.


The purpose is to raise revenue. That doesn't exclude the possibility of
the tax being fair. I don't see why a pensioner who does 3,000 miles a
year should pay the same road tax as a sales rep who does 100,000.

Also, given that there is a tax on fuel, it costs nothing to increase
it. Whereas adding a whole new tax is expensive.

They should abolish VED too, and add the extra charge to fuel duty.
(There used to be an argument that VED ensured that there was an MOT
and an insurance certificate once a year. Now they have got both of
those computerised, VED is no longer necessary.)

In article , Roland Perry
scribeth thus
In message , at 19:34:26 on Wed, 14 Nov
2012, tony sayer remarked:

Times have changed Roland. It might have been like then but not now...

Aren't we discussing a teacher who retired some time ago?

Yes I believe we were!...
--
Tony Sayer

On 14/11/2012 08:53, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
23:10:47 on Tue, 13 Nov 2012, harry remarked:

Affordable=uneconomic in my book.

"Affordable" is jargon for "run by a housing association".

I agree that any loans to such organisations to build more housing stock
should be done at a commercial rate. If they subsequently make a loss on
the rental income, there are various grants they can fall back on.

Are there - would you mind giving an example?

There used to be a Revenue Deficit Grant, but that was long ago IIRC.

Rob

In message om, at
19:38:06 on Thu, 15 Nov 2012, RJH remarked:
Affordable=uneconomic in my book.

"Affordable" is jargon for "run by a housing association".

I agree that any loans to such organisations to build more housing stock
should be done at a commercial rate. If they subsequently make a loss on
the rental income, there are various grants they can fall back on.

Are there - would you mind giving an example?

There used to be a Revenue Deficit Grant, but that was long ago IIRC.

The Homes and Communities Agency has £1.8 billion to hand out.
--
Roland Perry

On 12/11/2012 14:08, Roland Perry wrote:
In message o.uk, at
22:37:50 on Sun, 11 Nov 2012, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
... (and I wonder how far away the nearest Pharmacy is).

Not so much the "nearest phramacy". What is more important is pharmacy
that can get the drugs you require. There are two in the town one part of
the Surgery/Cottage Hospital and one chemist type. Niether the surgerys
or town phramacy can get what I need.

I've never encountered that problem before. Sometimes a pharmacy didn't
have the item in stock, but would always be able to call it in from a
supplier by midday the following day.

My wife has encountered similar problems. She is a Community Psychiatric
Nurse and has had a few patients who are very sensitive to medication -
any change sends them off and they soon end up being sectioned. On a
number of occassions she has had to source medications urgently as the
local pharmacy has decided to stop stocking them or has become unable to
get them and none of the others in the area have it either.

SteveW

On 14/11/2012 07:13, harry wrote:
On Nov 13, 7:22 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 13/11/2012 15:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:









In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message m, at
14:20:54 on Tue, 13 Nov 2012, "dennis@home"
remarked:
My brother taught all his life, and was poorly paid for a job which
required those sort of qualifications. The compensation for that poor
pay was a half decent pension.

He wasn't poorly paid, some of his pay was his pension.

And teachers aren't poorly paid anyway. From education.gov.uk:

"At £23,010, the average starting salary in teaching is high
compared to the average graduate starting salary. Experienced
teachers can earn up to £64,000 in London and £56,000 outside
London, while head teachers can reach a salary of between
£42,379 and £112,000."

That is now. He was poorly paid throughout most of his working life. And
teachers' pensions will be very different in the future anyway.

BTW, just how many teachers do you think become head teachers?

I would say too many.
Why do they have to be teachers to manage a school in the first place?

Having none experts managing specialist orgamisations is a recipe for
disaster.

I'm not sure about that. At one specialist company I worked for, I
reported to a Director. He had no technical qualifications and no
technical experience in the business. He was the best "manager" I have
ever had!

Worst of al is to get a bean counter in.

Agreed.

SteveW

On 14/11/2012 19:34, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Roland Perry
scribeth thus
In message , at 18:02:54 on
Wed, 14 Nov 2012, charles remarked:
I do know better. I know what they get up to, how long they spend at work
how much leisure time they have. They use holidays to the max and spend
little or no time working during those periods. They get 52 weeks pay for
working 30 weeks. Even when at work they get long rest periods between
lessons.

obviously you are not married to a teacher

Both my parents were teachers, and neither brought any work home
(although my dad tended not to get back until dinner time).

Times have changed Roland. It might have been like then but not now...

My sister, an aunt, an uncle and a cousin are all teachers (well the
uncle was, he has recently retired and just does supply now). My sister
does do some preparation outside school hours, but has far, far more
"leisure" time than myself and most of my friends. My aunt has been seen
to mark work, but again has plenty of free time. The cousin I don't know
about yet as she has only just started in teaching. The Uncle was a head
of department as well as doing his teaching duties - he has never been
seen to do any work outside school, never stayed late (except for
parents evenings and the like) and frequently gone away for four or five
weeks at a time (more than most people can manage in a year!)

SteveW