In message ,
lid writes

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Nonsense. Heavy trucks roll down hills and up the other side very well.

Yet another example to prove you can't even drive.

Trucks on a motorway

Once again senile one. "Heavy trucks roll down hills and up the
other side very well."

They don't.

They do. A freewheeling heavy truck goes right up the other side.

Right up the other side of what? Hills don't always occur in pairs.
And what if you go up before you go down - as per the M62 Manchester to
Leeds
--
hugh

hugh wrote:
In message ,
lid writes

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Nonsense. Heavy trucks roll down hills and up the other side very
well.

Yet another example to prove you can't even drive.

Trucks on a motorway

Once again senile one. "Heavy trucks roll down hills and up the
other side very well."

They don't.

They do. A freewheeling heavy truck goes right up the other side.

Right up the other side of what? Hills don't always occur in pairs.
And what if you go up before you go down - as per the M62 Manchester to
Leeds

Noticing that would be letting the facts get in the way of a rant.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:33:14 -0000 Dennis@home wrote :
You do understand that the pension holidays were required by the revenue.
The funds were deemed to be overfunded and the revenue required action to
stop them being overfunded.

So? Shareholders and management got an unexpected bonus in good times but
weren't prepared to meet their moral obligation to employees when things
changed.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article , lid says...

dennis@home wrote:


Extra mass doesn't help when going up and down hills unless you think
doing 1 mph on the level and rolling down a hill up to 70(or whatever
the speed limit is) and then slowing down to 1 mph as you go up the
other side is actually useful. Driving at the speed limit means there
is
nowhere to store any extra kinetic energy without speeding up which is
probably both illegal and dangerous.

Some tube train lines use this principle by having tubes that go down
between stations.

Exactly.

But its an expensive way to save electricity.

A bit of oversimplification there! Which would mean that long tube lines
would end up with a vast disparity in tunnel depth at the ends!

In practice, the method used is to build the stations on 'hills' in the
tunnel network with a sharp incline on the approach to assist fast
stopping and a longer, shallower gradient beyond the station to aid
rapid acceleration on departure.

I don't see how this is any more expensive than boring tunnels without
the gradients ...

Apparently one cancelled the other out. Uphill into station, downhill
leaving. These days brake regen can do the same.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel
?@?.? scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

I think that people don't have much appreciation just how much "energy"
there is in a gallon of petrol. And just how much energy it takes to
shove a motor car of any decent size around.....

A largish car doing 70mph only uses about 20-30% of the power of the
engine.
The surplus power is for acceleration.

Yes indeed.. How much power?..

Electric drive and kinetic brake
recovery using supercaps and a decent battery set can mean engines are
much
smaller.

More weight to lug around and accelerate ..

One cancels the other out - batteries vs heavy & bulky metal parts. You
eliminate a large heavy engine and its large heavy transmission. Small
motor-in-wheel-hub electric motors are very light and small. Having
batteries mean they can be slung low (under floor) for better centre of
gravity which is better and safer handling. They also create more space
inside for people and passengers.

Range extenders means the engines can be built light, small and
optimised to run at its sweet revving spot. All win, win.

Range extenders, do they run on Unobtainium?..

If you like.

The way it is now going.

Zoooooooooooooooooooooooom

In the Dr's world of course...

In the real world which you are detached from.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...


"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article , lid says...

dennis@home wrote:


Extra mass doesn't help when going up and down hills unless you think
doing 1 mph on the level and rolling down a hill up to 70(or whatever
the speed limit is) and then slowing down to 1 mph as you go up the
other side is actually useful. Driving at the speed limit means there
is
nowhere to store any extra kinetic energy without speeding up which is
probably both illegal and dangerous.

Some tube train lines use this principle by having tubes that go down
between stations.

But its an expensive way to save electricity.

A bit of oversimplification there! Which would mean that long tube lines
would end up with a vast disparity in tunnel depth at the ends!

In practice, the method used is to build the stations on 'hills' in the
tunnel network with a sharp incline on the approach to assist fast
stopping and a longer, shallower gradient beyond the station to aid
rapid acceleration on departure.

I don't see how this is any more expensive than boring tunnels without
the gradients ...

I can, unless the trains only run one way.
You would need two tunnels to do it in both directions.

That is what they do. Two tunnels is also for safety reasons.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message ,
lid writes

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message ,
lid writes

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"charles" wrote in message
...

and how long do I have to spend at a recharging point?

With the Toshiba batteries, 80% recharge in a few minutes. Total
recharge no more than lining up at petrol pumps.

Let us assume

Do not assume. Find out.

Right - I did - The Mitsubishi has a 66BHP engine = 49KW. Battery is
only
16KWh - so at full power you get about 20 minutes motoring. And if
you go
for the 10 minute charge option (being developed) you will need a 150A
supply.

Actually worse than my assumed figures.

That 150A supply will be at a station. You can charge it slower at home.
"More slowly" - some people are thick.

Some people are thick!

Oh come on. Is that the best you can do? You've even missed out the daily
mail reader bit.

You are right, Daily Mail readers. If Littlejohn wrote it they would believe
it.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Andy Burns
writes
Doctor Drivel wrote:

This was the year of the Northern Rock bail out.
The Credit Crunch had hit and banks bailed out - as in all western
countries.

And where do the pensions tax credit grab, 3G licence auction and oil
windfall tax fit in?

Apart from the "prudence period" during their first term, the deficit was
a runaway train.

And don't forget the sell off of eh gold reserves at the lowest price for
ages.

My God. Gold is near meaningless as money is "made up". They do not have
one pound of gold for each one pound note any longer. Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiish.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Nonsense. Heavy trucks roll down hills and up the other side very well.

Yet another example to prove you can't even drive.

Trucks on a motorway run at a constant governed speed. If they haven't got
enough power, they slow down on hills. Hence crawler lanes. Any kinetic
energy can safely be ignored in practice.

When going down hill the brakes may be applied to prevent them exceeding
the governed speed so there is little excess KE to carry them forward.

Freewheeling the roll down and up very well.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message ,
lid writes

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Nonsense. Heavy trucks roll down hills and up the other side very
well.

Yet another example to prove you can't even drive.

Trucks on a motorway

Once again senile one. "Heavy trucks roll down hills and up the other
side very well."

They don't.

They do. A freewheeling heavy truck goes right up the other side.

Right up the other side of what? Hills don't always occur in pairs.

I am making a point to the hard of thinking.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

Very true.

It wasn't true.

That's how all the infrastructure was to be paid for - by lumbering the
next generation with debt levels comparable to 1945,

Brainwashed, if the infrastructure greatly assists in economic growth then
the next generation can easily pay for it. The way Cameron now does not
have to pay heavily for infrastructure as Brown paid for that. So Cameron's
job is easier but he still creates millions of unemployment.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

Old Labour - tax and spend

Spend in industry and education investment.

New Labour (and new old labour) - tax and borrow and spend

Brainwashed I gave the figures, tax NEVER went up with Nu Labour. Read it
again and you can move your lips when reading it.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

This one is total brainwashed idiot. The constantly rising standard of
living was because of the economic growth created.

It was all smoke and mirrors.

Brainwashed, again....."The constantly rising standard of living was because
of the economic growth created".

Maybe all those skyscraper in provincial cities were cardboard cut-outs as
well. There was no change their skylines under the Tories. Only Docklands
skyline changed as Thatcher ignored the rest and pour public money into
Docklands - 1/3 was public money - a whole new town complete with its own 31
station metro, while the likes of Liverpool can't get a few bob in
comparison to bring into use mothballed trackbed and tunnels which would
make great impact to the city. All cities can state similar stories.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

Brown never did that at all. Stop reading the Daily Mail.

I was wondering when the Daily Mail would resurface.

You must stop reading the Daily Mail, Express, Torygraph, etc.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

Brown left the country in a better position than others and this fool
Cameron takes credit. But he has made millions unemployed in only 18
months.

Most of them doing total non-jobs in the public sector

Brainwashed again....."Brown left the country in a better position than
others and this fool Cameron takes credit. But he has made millions
unemployed in only 18 months."

Your knowedge of basic economics is ZERO!

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
Brown failed to regulate the banks and Blair dissappeared up his own
arse with his desire to become an "international statesman" (ie get
involved in everyone's wars).

And where is the emergency legislation brought in immediately by the
Tories to regulate the banks? Pigs might sooner fly...

Responsibility for that particular item lies with - err - Vince Cable

Brainwashed, no Cameron!!!!!

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

Gordon Brown saved the world? Don't make me laugh.

He put together the world rescue plan.

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , John Williamson
writes
On 30/12/2011 08:59, charles wrote:
In , Doctor Drivel
wrote:

Dork, you have range extender if you constant.go long distances. Once
the charging infrastructure is in then no probs.

What is a "range extender"? Another battery? Where do you put it? On
the
back seat?

It's a fossil fuelled engine driving a generator that you use to replace
the power you draw from the battery. A.K.A. a hybrid drive train.

You could, of course, replace the whole drive train with an engine and
gearbox directly driving the wheels, but that's not "green", even when it
used less energy overall than the hybrid.

Maybe it could be fixed using a supercapacitor.

Mounted on the hard shoulder?

In your Tory Pixieland, of course.

In article ,
Huge wrote:
On 2012-01-01, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:33:14 -0000 Dennis@home wrote :
You do understand that the pension holidays were required by the
revenue. The funds were deemed to be overfunded and the revenue
required action to stop them being overfunded.

So? Shareholders and management got an unexpected bonus in good times
but weren't prepared to meet their moral obligation to employees when
things changed.

You do understand that the maximum level of contribution is fixed by the
revenue?

And who set that level with the revenue?

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
More weight to lug around and accelerate ..

One cancels the other out - batteries vs heavy & bulky metal parts. You
eliminate a large heavy engine and its large heavy transmission.

Try looking at the weight (and weight distribution) of the Tesla you're so
keen on. It is based on a petrol engined car so very easy to get a direct
weight comparison. Which isn't so easy when comparing a made from scratch
electric or hybrid vehicle with a similar sized IC engined one, as the
high price of the hybrid allows more exotic weight saving measures to be
employed. And they certainly need them.

--
*It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Dec 31 2011, 9:09*am, Steve Firth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
* *hugh ] wrote:
But how many of those eligible to vote were at that meeting?

Never actually counted them but in those days the meetings were
generally held in the open air just off site during lunch breaks so I
guess the turn out would be pretty high.

If, as is claimed, there was massive successful intimidation, surely those
wimps who couldn't stand up for themselves would simply stay away from the
meeting?

Those who did stand up for themselves in King Arthur's. Coal War continue
to suffer abuse and ostracism to this day. Calling those who didn't want to
see their families suffering because the bread winner was "a scab" wimps
shows a massive lack of understanding on your part or a massive dose of
cynicism if you were actually aware of how dissenters within the unions are
treated.

Bricks through your window on a daily basis tend to cause even strong
independent individuals to toe the line.

That is true. I have seen it myself. In the S Wales coalfields it is
carried down the generations, even though the mines are long closed.
The scabs and non scabs have to live in separate places. And their
children and grandchildren.

These Welsh know how to hold a grudge.

On Dec 31 2011, 10:40*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Tim Watts wrote:

Brown failed to regulate the banks and Blair dissappeared up his own
arse with his desire to become an "international statesman" (ie get
involved in everyone's wars).

And where is the emergency legislation brought in immediately by the
Tories to regulate the banks? Pigs might sooner fly...

--
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Savings banks are to be ring fenced. That is the main thing that is
going to be done.

On Dec 31 2011, 10:42*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *harry wrote:

Kinetic energy stored as vehicle momentum is of no use for accelerating
the vehicle. *At the time you need it it isn't there.

It's also of no use for climbing hills - the extra weight exactly
cancels out the extra KE.

In fact I can't think of a use for extra mass at all. *Except in a road
roller.

Andy
But it can be used for charging batteries. *Which is exactly what
happens in electric cars. *In ICE cars, it is lost.
Bad news during cornering though.

I don't know where you've been, but lots of conventional IC engined cars
now use their alternator to store energy when slowing.

--
*Be more or less specific *

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Store the energy where? What tripe.

On Dec 31 2011, 10:56*am, Tim Lamb
wrote:
In message , Tim
Streater writes





In article , Doctor Drivel
wrote:

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2011-12-30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Strange. My memory gives a constantly rising standard of living and
financial stability for much of the 15 years or so of the last labour
government.

Funded entirely by debt, leading to ...
*That is tripe spouted by brainwashed Tory voting fool.
*Labour inherited a basket case on 1997. The Tories inherited pretty
well the *strongest economy in the Western world.

Stuff and nonsense. In 1997, inflation was at 2.5% and had been for at
least three years. Unemployment was falling fast. Source for both of
these? The Economist.

YEAR : Surplus/deficit, £m : Party in power
1991 -8,142 *Con
1992 -29,259 Con
1993 -40,576 Con
1994 -36,268 Con
1995 -28,232 Con
1996 -22,749 Con
1997 -11,246 Lab
1998 6,903 Lab
1999 17,474 Lab
2000 21,489 Lab
2001 19,646 Lab

So your figures stop on 2001. Any particular reason for that - like
huge deficits building up from 2002 perhaps?

So far (unless I missed it) PFI has not been mentioned. ISTM that this
is *off the books* expenditure and ought to be included in GB's record.

regards



--
Tim Lamb- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is a big one too. And will be ongoing for years.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
More weight to lug around and accelerate ..

One cancels the other out - batteries vs
heavy & bulky metal parts. You
eliminate a large heavy engine and
its large heavy transmission.

Try looking at the weight (and weight distribution)
of the Tesla you're so keen on. It is based on a
petrol engined car

There is the problem. It was not designed for battery packs. A car designed
with battery packs in mind would be designed for optimum weight
distribution and very low centre of gravity.

Once into full production of a dedicated EV/EV range extender car and the
essential batteries, prices will tumble as there are fewer parts.

Make a new years resolution..."I must think properly before typing".

"harry" wrote in message
...

In the S Wales coalfields it is
carried down the generations, even
though the mines are long closed.
The scabs and non scabs have to
live in separate places. And their
children and grandchildren.

When scabbing you have to consider the consequences. A SCAB is a SCAB!

The following was written by Jack London in 1915.

Ode To A Scab

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, He had
some awful substance left with which he made a scab. A scab is a two-legged
animal with a corkscrew soul, a waterlogged brain, and a combination
backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a
tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in
heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out. No man has a
right to scab as long as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his
body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was
a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his Master, he had character
enough to hang himself. A scab hasn't.

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his
savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a
promise of a commission in the British Army. The modern strikebreaker sells
his birthright, his country, his wife, his children, and his fellow men for
an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust, or corporation.

On Dec 31 2011, 2:02*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *tony sayer wrote:

I also recall one of the car comics doing a cost-to-coast US trip in a
Pious. The American chase car did better mpg.
I think that people don't have much appreciation just how much "energy"
there is in a gallon of petrol. And just how much energy it takes to
shove a motor car of any decent size around.....

The electric car lobby just don't accept they are like any other vehicle -
the harder it is driven, the more energy it uses. Or the heavier it is, or
the more load it carries, etc etc.

If you claimed a diesel or petrol car had the same range at 50 mph and 100
mph you'd be known to be deranged. But the electric car makers do just
this with impunity. And those with no brain cells believe them.


Percentagewise, electric cars are even worse driven at speed.
Aerodynamic losses vary with the square of speed and are not
recoverable.

"harry" wrote in message
...

That is a big one too. And will be ongoing for years.

Prey tell in your incisive knowledge of economics.

Why are all the green public transport posts showing up as new topics?

It doesn't happen with other topics, so what's going on with this
one?

Onetap wrote:
Why are all the green public transport posts showing up as new topics?

It doesn't happen with other topics, so what's going on with this
one?

probaly because your newreader is broken..looks ok from here

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"harry" wrote in message
...

In the S Wales coalfields it is
carried down the generations, even
though the mines are long closed.
The scabs and non scabs have to
live in separate places. And their
children and grandchildren.

When scabbing you have to consider the consequences. A SCAB is a
SCAB!

Define a scab.

NACODS voted not to strike yet the NUM miners that had voted to stike called
them scabs.
--
Adam

wrote:


"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Andy
Burns writes
Doctor Drivel wrote:

This was the year of the Northern Rock bail out.
The Credit Crunch had hit and banks bailed out - as in all western
countries.

And where do the pensions tax credit grab, 3G licence auction and oil
windfall tax fit in?

Apart from the "prudence period" during their first term, the deficit was
a runaway train.

And don't forget the sell off of eh gold reserves at the lowest price for
ages.

My God. Gold is near meaningless as money is "made up". They do not have
one pound of gold for each one pound note any longer.
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiish.

"Pound sterling" referred to a pound-weight in silver, not gold...



--
Tim Watts

harry wrote:

On Dec 31 2011, 9:09 am, Steve Firth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
But how many of those eligible to vote were at that meeting?

Never actually counted them but in those days the meetings were
generally held in the open air just off site during lunch breaks so I
guess the turn out would be pretty high.

If, as is claimed, there was massive successful intimidation, surely
those wimps who couldn't stand up for themselves would simply stay away
from the meeting?

Those who did stand up for themselves in King Arthur's. Coal War continue
to suffer abuse and ostracism to this day. Calling those who didn't want
to see their families suffering because the bread winner was "a scab"
wimps shows a massive lack of understanding on your part or a massive
dose of cynicism if you were actually aware of how dissenters within the
unions are treated.

Bricks through your window on a daily basis tend to cause even strong
independent individuals to toe the line.

That is true. I have seen it myself. In the S Wales coalfields it is
carried down the generations, even though the mines are long closed.
The scabs and non scabs have to live in separate places. And their
children and grandchildren.

These Welsh know how to hold a grudge.

I doubt it applies to the Welsh in general, but I'm happy to label those it
does apply to as a socio-retard.

--
Tim Watts

"harry" wrote in message
...

Percentagewise, electric cars are even worse driven at speed.
Aerodynamic losses vary with the square of speed and are not
recoverable.

Same with any car. Duh

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
harry wrote:

On Dec 31 2011, 9:09 am, Steve Firth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
But how many of those eligible to vote were at that meeting?

Never actually counted them but in those days the meetings were
generally held in the open air just off site during lunch breaks so I
guess the turn out would be pretty high.

If, as is claimed, there was massive successful intimidation, surely
those wimps who couldn't stand up for themselves would simply stay
away
from the meeting?

Those who did stand up for themselves in King Arthur's. Coal War
continue
to suffer abuse and ostracism to this day. Calling those who didn't want
to see their families suffering because the bread winner was "a scab"
wimps shows a massive lack of understanding on your part or a massive
dose of cynicism if you were actually aware of how dissenters within the
unions are treated.

Bricks through your window on a daily basis tend to cause even strong
independent individuals to toe the line.

That is true. I have seen it myself. In the S Wales coalfields it is
carried down the generations, even though the mines are long closed.
The scabs and non scabs have to live in separate places. And their
children and grandchildren.

These Welsh know how to hold a grudge.

I doubt it applies to the Welsh in general, but I'm happy to label those
it
does apply to as a socio-retard.

A scab is a SCAB.

On Jan 1, 11:35*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

probaly because your newreader is broken..looks ok from here

No newsreader, I'm using Google Groups.

In message ,
lid writes

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

Old Labour - tax and spend

Spend in industry and education investment.

New Labour (and new old labour) - tax and borrow and spend

Brainwashed I gave the figures, tax NEVER went up with Nu Labour. Read
it again and you can move your lips when reading it.
Income tax never went up, expect for the scrapping of the 10p rate of
course. Just about every other conceivable tax did. Council tax doubled.
--
hugh

In message ,
lid writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
More weight to lug around and accelerate ..

One cancels the other out - batteries vs
heavy & bulky metal parts. You
eliminate a large heavy engine and
its large heavy transmission.

Try looking at the weight (and weight distribution)
of the Tesla you're so keen on. It is based on a
petrol engined car

There is the problem. It was not designed for battery packs. A car
designed with battery packs in mind would be designed for optimum
weight distribution and very low centre of gravity.

Once into full production of a dedicated EV/EV range extender car and
the essential batteries, prices will tumble as there are fewer parts.

Make a new years resolution..."I must think properly before typing".
Glad to see you've taken on board my earlier suggestion.
--
hugh

In message ,
lid writes

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Andy
Burns writes
Doctor Drivel wrote:

This was the year of the Northern Rock bail out.
The Credit Crunch had hit and banks bailed out - as in all western
countries.

And where do the pensions tax credit grab, 3G licence auction and oil
windfall tax fit in?

Apart from the "prudence period" during their first term, the deficit
was a runaway train.

And don't forget the sell off of eh gold reserves at the lowest price
for ages.

My God. Gold is near meaningless as money is "made up". They do not
have one pound of gold for each one pound note any longer.
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiish.

Gold has value which varies, nothing to do with the gold standard which
I think we abandoned in 1928. Selling an asset at its lowest value is
either very stupid or very desperate, or in Brown's case - both.
--
hugh

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Huge wrote:
On 2012-01-01, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:33:14 -0000 Dennis@home wrote :
You do understand that the pension holidays were required by the
revenue. The funds were deemed to be overfunded and the revenue
required action to stop them being overfunded.

So? Shareholders and management got an unexpected bonus in good times
but weren't prepared to meet their moral obligation to employees when
things changed.

You do understand that the maximum level of contribution is fixed by the
revenue?

And who set that level with the revenue?

Gordon Brown?
--
hugh